According to the new website by CLE, it is a bit surprising to me that DL is now third in market share behind CO and WN. The top two are not all that surprising, but the third one is. How far AA and UA, as well as US, have fallen at CLE after one time having reservations centers in the case of UA and a mini-hub or now what would be called a focus city by US.

If DL is third overall - it is surprising that they've been using 732s and mostly CRJs to ATL and CVG.

What are the chances they will introduce a daily flight to SLC to compete with Frontier at CAK and/or HPs multiple flights out west - or is this simply too much to compete with CO.

Quoting Jetpixx (Thread starter): What are the chances they will introduce a daily flight to SLC to compete with Frontier at CAK and/or HPs multiple flights out west - or is this simply too much to compete with CO.

Being in CLE myself I think what we have with DL now is what we are going to have with DL moving forward.

I don't see CLE-SLC. CO is on this seasonally, and the seasonally to me is most likely for a reason. No demand. Though SLC opens the door to all the west for DL pax from CLE, most are already served via CVG. Luv2fly, I'd agree, what you see is what CLE will get. IMHO! I would love to see some new colors around CLE, but I guess nothing is really in the works, is it?

ASSFO

DL's CLE flight schedule hasn't changed since they lost Delta Express to MCO. I don't see anything on the horizon as CO flies CLE-JFK, CLE-FLL, CLE-MCO, and CLE-TPA. DL position in CLE is simply a result of the other airlines adding or dropping capacity in this case the rest having fewer seats in/out of CLE than DL.

Quoting AS739X (Reply 2): Though SLC opens the door to all the west for DL pax from CLE, most are already served via CVG. Luv2fly, I'd agree, what you see is what CLE will get. IMHO! I would love to see some new colors around CLE, but I guess nothing is really in the works, is it?

CVG is where most people would rather connect if they have to. Though for the West CO does have the majors covered non-stop out of CLE! Do I expect to see any new carriers anytime soon? NO! I would be surprised, though rumors is of course B6, IMHO - I would not be surprised if B6 took CAK first as that would work to attract the PIT crowd and keep WN off there back. Also CAK is more aggressive going after new carriers.

[Edited 2005-07-30 02:37:28]

I remember when UA "owned" Cleveland and operated frequent flights out of CLE to so many US cities - UA operated everything from frequent 737 services out of CLE to LGA and EWR to 747s and DC10s to ORD and the west coast. Have times changed!

only reason DL is #3 is that UA and AA (0 mainline) and US (1 mainline flight) have pulled back to nothing; barely any mainline at CLE any more other than the 40 or so flights by CO, WN, and a few flights by the others. CLE was hammered by 9/11 and hasn't really bounced back in the way most other hubs have, CO just seems to have no interest anymore.

Is it possible that if you factored out CO - that CAK has more mainline than CLE? UA has no mainline anymore? I could have sworn I saw a 735 there last time - but that is also more than a year ago.

Quoting Jetpixx (Reply 7): that CAK has more mainline than CLE?

CAK has mainline from FL and F9.... that's it. CLE has DL, US, NW, WN, HP, U5, etc. CLE kicks the crap out of CAK in mainline, even minus CO.

Quoting Ncflyer (Reply 6): only reason DL is #3 is that UA and AA (0 mainline) and US (1 mainline flight) have pulled back to nothing

Not true. UA has 4 mainline flights to ORD per day, 737-300s and a 757 as well as one 737-300 DEN-CLE (flight 498).

[Edited 2005-07-30 04:49:51]

Its a little early to compare CAK and CLE jetpixx...not even the same ballpark yet. When CAK is running flights from 20-25 gates (may not ever happen) then we can compare. CLE is still a major airport, period! CAK is still a niche and minor airport.

ASSFO

my bad, the 0 mainline was referring to AA only, but you can't tell by how I wrote it. Yeah UA has some mainline but a shadow of what it used to be before 9/11. Don't really have the facts but I'll bet UA had 8 or 9 mainline to Chicago a few years ago.

Quoting Jetpixx (Thread starter): in the case of UA and a mini-hub

I don't know how many flights UA had at it's peek in CLE, but it wasn't a mini-hub. It had substantial service here through the mid to late 70's.

Quoting Jetpixx (Thread starter): What are the chances they will introduce a daily flight to SLC to compete with Frontier at CAK and/or HPs multiple flights out west - or is this simply too much to compete with CO.

I don't think DL will bypass CVG with a CLE-SLC flight. CO has run on and off summer service CLE-SLC over the last few years, and the loads have always been good.

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 4): I expect to see any new carriers anytime soon?

CLE blew it's chances to bring in Frontier a few years back, if I remember, along with AirTran, when the White Administration ran the airport with incompetent political hacks.

The next one out of CLE will probably be B6 in a few years, when they have the E190 up to speed. Also, a pilot for B6 told me not long ago that both CLE and CAK are on their "to do" list-one serving basically Florida markets, and the other serving JFK, maybe LGB. He didn't know whch was which, but I'd imagine CAK would be the former and CLE the latter.

Quoting Jetpixx (Reply 7): Is it possible that if you factored out CO - that CAK has more mainline than CLE?

Doubt it. It'd be close, but I think with WN running all mainline, that tips the scale to CLE.

Keep in mind that as recently as 2000 and 2001 UA still had a much more sizable CLE presence. I remember flying a UA 767-200 from ORD-CLE in 2000 and when we arrived I believe there was another 767 parked beside us.

DL being tops in market share is not uncommon at most US airports. If you look at nearly any airport in the US, DL is usually in the top 3 or 4 unless the airport is like LAX, where many carriers have large operations. DL is the largest domestic carrier, or possibly second largest now due to WN's growth.

Jeremy

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 12): I don't know how many flights UA had at it's peek in CLE, but it wasn't a mini-hub. It had substantial service here through the mid to late 70's.

A look at UA @ Cleveland through the years....

1971 - 68 Daily Flights

ABE/1X
ATL/5X
BWI/2X
BOS/2X
ORD/9X
DEN/1X
DTW/1X
FNT/2X
FLL/1X
FWA/2X
GRR/2X
BDL/2X
LAN/1X
LAX/2X
MIA/4X
MKE/3X
MSP/1X
LGA/5X
EWR/3X
PHL/4X
PIT/1X
PVD/1X
MBS/1X
SFO/1X
SBN/2X
TPA/2X
TOL/3X
DCA/4X

1973 - 95 Daily Flights/4 Widebodies

ABE/1X
ATL/6X
BWI/2X
BOS/3X
CRW/1X
ORD/7X-1W
MDW/3X
DEN/1X
DTW/1X
FNT/3X
FLL/3X
FWA/3X
GRR/3X
BDL/2X
LAN/3X
LAX/2X-1W
MIA/4X-1W
MKE/2X
MSP/1X
LGA/8X
EWR/5X
JFK/1X
ORF/1X
PHL/5X
PIT/5X
PVD/1X
MBS/1X
SFO/1X
SBN/2X
TPA/3X-1W
TOL/3X
DCA/5X
PBI/2X

1975 - 81 Daily Flights/6 Widebodies

ATL/5X-1W
BWI/2X
BOS/4X
CRW/1X
ORD/9X-3W
DEN/2X
FNT/3X
FLL/2X
FWA/3X
GRR/3X
BDL/2X
LAN/2X
LAX/1X
MIA/2X-1W
MKE/2X
LGA/8X
EWR/5X
JFK/2X
ORF/1X
PHL/4X
PIT/3X
PVD/1X
MBS/1X
SFO/1X
SBN/3X
TPA/2X-1W
TOL/3X
DCA/4X
IAD/2X

1978 - 102 Daily Flights/5 Widebodies

CAK/1X
ABE/1X
ATL/5X
BWI/3X
BOS/4X
CRW/3X
ORD/7X-4W
DEN/2X
FNT/2X
FLL/2X
FWA/2X
GRR/4X
BDL/3X
MCI/2X
LAN/2X
LAS/1X
LAX/3X
MIA/2X
MKE/2X
MSP/1X
MSY/1X
LGA/9X
EWR/7X-1W
JFK/2X
ORF/1X
PHL/4X
PIT/5X
PVD/1X
MBS/3X
SFO/2X
SBN/3X
TPA/2X
TOL/4X
DCA/5X
PBI/1X


......more Cleveland "Through The Years" coming soon.

AA might have thing or two to say about being the largest domestic carrier but I agree with what you say. Delta's domestic system is so spread out they have a signifcant presense in many many markets.

Quoting Ncflyer (Reply 11): Don't really have the facts but I'll bet UA had 8 or 9 mainline to Chicago a few years ago.

Heck, I remember not 6 years ago seeing DC-10s and 763s running CLE-ORD.

Pretty interesting stuff, Stirling. UA definately had a full-blown hub at CLE in the '70s. I have a picture my dad took of when the DC-10s were grounded and it shows 6 UA DC-10s along with 2 or 3 AA DC-10s parked on a pad. Heck, DC-8s made up the bulk of the transcon and florida equipment.

I flew n/s from CLE-FLL on a 727 back in 1980 on UA. I also remember NW used to have some DC-10s in CLE. I wonder if I could dig it up somewhere, but I had a poster laminated with all of the tails of Cleveland Hopkins back in the early 80s.....the NW was a DC-10, as well as the UA.

Quoting N766UA (Reply 17): UA definately had a full-blown hub at CLE in the '70s.

Some years it surpassed the Denver hub in number of daily departures.

While those departures might seem slight by today's standards; the 70's were a different story...Even the airline with the highest concentration of flights at one airport, Delta at Atlanta, had something in the neighborhood of 175 daily flights...that was an ENORMOUS operation for the decade.

I find amazing the amount of small, short-haul markets United served out of Cleveland, remember, the smallest metal they at the time had was the Caravelle in the early part of the decade, the 737 later on: Most of these were old Capital markets from the 1961 merger:
Allentown, Flint, Lansing, Akron, Pittsburgh, Fort Wayne, South Bend, Charleston WV, Milwaukee, Providence, Hartford, Toledo...
These small towns were mixed in with major transcons to Los Angeles, San Francisco, Miami, Tampa..
New York City alone was served by as many as 18 daily flights...widebodies in the mix too.

Yes, Cleveland would certainly be classified as a "HUB", even by today's standards.

My aunt was a F/A for United, she once had a detailed wall map of United's routes. This was unusual for the time since it wasn't the standard-issue artist's interpretation found in the timetables then; anyone remember the route maps that looked like they were done with pink highlighting marker showing not routes but "Traffic-Flows"?
Well the map I am talking about showed routes United had applied for, but had been awarded...one of the routes that sticks out from that fuzzy memory of 35 years ago; a nonstop route from Cleveland to Honolulu! It was before the 747 entered service, highlighting upcoming service to Hawai'i from such places as SEA, PDX, SFO, OAK, LAX, DEN, ORD, PIT, DTW, JFK, PHL, BWI, IAD, ATL, MEM...about half of those actually saw service. It had a picture of a 747 up in the corner with a script text beneath saying something like, "United 747 Friendship brings Hawai'i closer to more of America in the 70's!" What I wouldn't give to have that map today. (She threw it away not thinking anyone would want it! - Check the landfills around Charlottesville VA!!!)

Coming up......A look at United at Cleveland in 1965. Stay Tuned.

Of course all this talk about market share is meaningliess unless Delta is actually making money on its CLE routes. Anyone know if these routes are profitable?

Charles, SJ

Quoting Stirling (Reply 19): Coming up......A look at United at Cleveland in 1965. Stay Tuned.

Heh.. my dad'll have a field day. He used to fly everything from DC-6s to caravelles out of CLE in the '60s and '70s and he used to work as a ramp rat in the late '70s. He's got pictures of him in the cockpits and pits of 737s, DC-8s, DC-10s, 747s.. you name it!

Quoting Stirling (Reply 15): DL is the largest domestic carrier, or possibly second largest now due to WN's growth.

There are a number of metrics you can use to rank carriers; unless you tell us which metric you're using your comment is useless. Largest in terms of:
- revenue?
- revenue passenger miles?
- earnings?
- market capitalization?
- available seat miles?
- daily flights?
- cities served?
- employees?

Quoting BayAreaPilot (Reply 22): Quoting Stirling (Reply 15): SA)">DL is the largest domestic carrier, or possibly second largest now due to SA)">WN's growth. There are a number of metrics you can use to rank carriers; unless you tell us which metric you're using your comment is useless. Largest in terms of:

...hmmmmm, I didn't say that. Even though it is attributed to me. Odd.

In the words of Drew Carey, "Cleveland Rocks!"
As did Cleveland in the winter of 1965, below is the list of all the United flights that transited through the city "with a tower that is terminal and a lake that is eerie". Clevelanders will get it...but no one else!  

What a mix of aircraft: The DC-6B, and DC-6, DC-8-10 and 50, the Boeing 720, The Sud Aviation SE210 Caravelle, and the Vickers Viscount!
Oh what fun it must have been to be a spotter in those days.
The only aircraft Cleveland didn't get was the Convair 340 Mainliner...those were relegated to the West Coast...(present company included; the cheap-wine capital of the USA: Modesto CA!)
The Viscounts and Caravelles stayed in the Eastern half of the country.

FYI, even then, United slung 6 flights a day (DC-8) across the Pacific between LAX and HNL with 3 between SFO and HNL.

Now, without further delay, on with the schedule:

73 720 BDL CLE LAX
78 720 LAX CLE BDL
115 DC8 JFK CLE ORD LAX SAN
123 720 CLE ORD SFO
130 720 SFO ORD CLE
158 DC8 SEA ORD CLE JFK
159 DC8 JFK CLE ORD SEA PDX
224 727 SFO SAC RNO DEN ORD CLE
227 727 LGA CLE MDW DEN SLC SFO
231 727 CLE ORD DEN SLC BOI PDX SEA
317 CVL EWR CLE ORD DSM
335 727 JFK CLE
336 727 ORD CLE
343 727 CLE ORD DSM
361 727 CLE ATL TPA PBI MIA
362 CVL CLE PHL
363 727 PHL CLE
367 CVL BOS CLE PHL EWR
376 CVL CLE BDL
392 727 CLE JFK
396 727 MIA PBI TPA ATL CLE
406 CVL PHL CLE BOS
407 CVL BOS CLE MSP
414 CVL MSP CLE BWI
420 727 CLE LGA
427 CVL PHL CLE MKE ORD
428 CVL MKE CLE EWR
429 CVL PHL CLE
431 CVL BWI CLE YIP ORD
436 CVL ORD CLE
438 CVL MKE CLE EWR
439 CVL EWR CLE ORD
441 CVL EWR CLE MKE
466 CVL DSM ORD CLE BOS
469 CVL EWR CLE ORD
471 CVL EWR CLE MKE
472 727 MDW CLE LGA
474 CVL CLE PHL
475 727 CLE ATL JAX MIA
476 727 MIA JAX ATL CLE
480 CVL MSP ORD CLE EWR
481 CVL CLE ORD MSP
486 727 MSP ORD CLE
498 CVL MSP ORD CLE
568 727 MIA CLE
576 727 MIA CLE
577 727 CLE TPA
580 727 MIA CLE
584 727 MIA CLE
585 727 CLE MIA
586 727 TPA CLE
587 727 CLE MIA
589 727 CLE MIA
595 727 CLE MIA
604 DC6 CLE BDL PVD
615 VC ORF PHF BWI PIT CLE TOL GRR
618 VC HSV TYS CLE YIP
622 VC TOL CLE DCA
632 VC BHM TYS PIT CLE
637 VC ORF DCA CLE
639 VC PHL ABE CLE
644 DC6 DSM ORD GRR FNT CLE EWR
647 VC YIP CLE TYS
661 DC6 EWR CLE MBS GRR ORD
665 VC EWR CLE FNT GRR ORD
668 VC CLE CAK YNG PIT DCA
698 VC PIT CLE
698 VC CLE CAK YNG EWR
700 VC ORD MBS FNT YIP CLE BWI PHF ORF
706 VC CLE DCA
714 DC6 ORD TOL CLE
717 DC6 EWR ABE PIT CLE FWA SBN ORD MLI CID
732 DC6 ORD SBN FWA CLE DCA
741 DC6 BWI CLE FWA SBN ORD MLI
749 DC6 CLE TOL ORD
752 VC GRR MBS CLE EWR
756 DC6 ORD SBN FWA CLE PIT TYS BHM MOB
766 VC CLE PIT DCA
771 DC6 DCA CLE YIP FNT MBS ORD MKE
775 VC DCA CLE TOL ORD
779 DC6 DCA CLE FWA SBN ORD DSM OMA
791 DC6 PVD BDL CLE
794 DC6 CLE ABE PHL
808 DC6 ORD TOL CLE BDL
842 DC6 CLE PIT BUF ROC DCA
882 DC6 MIA TPA PIT CLE
883 DC6 CLE PIT MIA
892 DC6 MIA TPA ATL CLE
893 DC6 CLE ATL TPA MIA
898 DC6 ATL CRW PIT CLE
661/X DC6 EWR CLE FNT MBS GRR ORD
732/X DC6 ORD SBN FWA TOL CLE DCA
775/X VC DCA CLE TOL FWA SBN ORD
882/X DC6 MIA PIT CLE
883/X DC6 CLE PIT TPA MIA


CVL=Caravelle
VC=Viscount
SAC=Sacramento
YIP=Detroit Willow Run
Flight #s with "X" are SA, SASU, or SU only deviations from main flight #.

Some unusual flights, like UA406; PHL-CLE-BOS.....
This is the schedule from Winter 65/66....4 nonstops to Miami, plus 5 through (direct) flights! Wow!
There are some other odd nuggets, you just have to look for yourself!

Stay tuned for Cleveland 1958.

Quoting N766UA (Reply 17): Pretty interesting stuff, Stirling. UA definately had a full-blown hub at CLE in the '70s. I have a picture my dad took of when the DC-10s were grounded and it shows 6 UA DC-10s along with 2 or 3 AA DC-10s parked on a pad. Heck, DC-8s made up the bulk of the transcon and florida equipment.

You really need to scan that  


-Dan

Quoting Dan2002 (Reply 24): You really need to scan that

You're right. I really need to go find it. There's quite a few interesting ones.