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md90fan
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DL Hub At DFW

Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:06 am

As you all know Delta used to operate a hub at DFW until this year. What was the schedual? and did they have any int'l. service from DFW. I think at its peak they had 240-250 daily departures, what routes did they have and what aircraft were used? any info appreciated
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drerx7
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RE: DL Hub At DFW

Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:14 am

They may at some point had international flights out of DFW--but the only unique route I remember from the 90s and 00s was the L1011-500 that routed ATL-DFW-HNL. The ATL-DFW flight was my first L1011.
HOUSTON, TEXAS
 
AA54Heavy
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RE: DL Hub At DFW

Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:17 am

I want to say there was a FRA flight out of DFW in the early 90s time period, plus the aforementioned HNL flight.....which isn't international, but significant nonetheless
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luv2fly
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RE: DL Hub At DFW

Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:18 am

I know they offered flights to FRA at one time.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
commavia
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RE: DL Hub At DFW

Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:18 am

Quoting MD90fan (Thread starter):
What was the schedual?

Like any other U.S. carrier hub, DL's DFW schedule was highly peaked with, IIRC, about 5-6 major connecting banks throughout the day. From DFW, DL served pretty much all the usual suspects -- just about every major U.S. airport, plus smaller cities in the south throughout DCI.

Quoting MD90fan (Thread starter):
and did they have any int'l. service from DFW.

Back in the day (early 90s), DL did fly nonstop from DFW to FRA. And, in the early 00s, like 2000-2001, DL did try to tap into the DFW-Mexico market by flying RJs from DFW to a few cities (MEX, a couple others), but that failed miserably.
 
B4REAL
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RE: DL Hub At DFW

Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:28 am

I sure miss the DL that is without DFW as a hub.

The DL DFW hub that closed earlier this year had mostly RJ flights, but I think there were 11 cities served mainline or maybe it was 11 cities + ATL/SLC/CVG.

I always had the best service on DL at DFW.
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ord
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RE: DL Hub At DFW

Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:43 am

Here's a brief synopsis of Delta at DFW. Note nonstop international service was provided to Frankfurt for 11 years. Delta also served Mexico City, Acapulco, San Juan and Nassau nonstop at some point in the late 1980s/early 1990s (all with mainline).

1979: As deregulation begins Delta has about 50 flights at DFW
December, 1982: Delta announces it plans to add 22 gates to its existing 15 gates at DFW over the next several years
1983: Delta commits to a full-size hub at DFW after Braniff's collapse in 1982. Service is increased to 124 flights. Delta controls over 20% of DFW traffic
1984: Delta begins nonstops from DFW to Frankfurt, Germany
October, 1988: Delta opens its nine-gate satellite expansion to Terminal 4E, designed to handle widebody flights
January, 1990: Delta announces an expansion project to add two more gates and 4,500 parking spaces at DFW
1991: Delta's traffic at DFW grows by over 7%
Summer, 1992: Delta launches all-out campaign to boost its DFW market position. The campaign failed, and Delta's DFW share dropped from 29% in August to 27.4% by the end of December
1993: DFW flights at their peak with 257
May, 1994: Delta flights down to 215
April, 1995: DFW flights stand at 212 flights
May 1, 1995: DFW flights trimmed by 17 to 195
November, 1995: Flight to Frankfurt is dropped
December 1, 1995: DFW flights trimmed by 60 to 135
February, 1996: Delta Connection carrier ASA moves its operations into the satellite terminal
Spring, 2003: Delta cuts many mainline flights at DFW while adding many Delta Connection flights in an effort to boost frequencies
February, 2005: The DFW hub ends

[Edited 2005-08-01 18:44:47]
 
Lono
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RE: DL Hub At DFW

Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:50 am

I used to work the international freight office for DL
DL used to have DFW-FRA-DFW service
and
DL Metal 727 DFW-MEX-DFW and DFW-PVR-DFW flights daily...
Later DL "code shared" the Mexico flights out to AeroMexico....
All flights were full in and out every day.....

The rest of the domestic schedule was awsome... over 270 flights to everywhere it seemed.... something like 60 some destinations (DL Metal)... DFWFFDL used to be one hopping place......
Wally Bird Ruled the Skys!
 
texan
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RE: DL Hub At DFW

Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:50 am

DL operated pretty much every type of aircraft from DFW. They had L1011s and 763s nonstop to HNL, MSY, FLL, MCO, ATL, TPA, LAX, SEA, JAX, SLC, CVG, DEN, LAS, and PDX. 777s and 764s went to ATL. 762s to ATL, BOS, CVG, LAS, LAX, FLL, MCO, PDX, SEA, LGA. 757s to pretty much all cities outside of Texas, Oklahoma, and New Mexico, including BHM, JAN, MSY, DEN, SAN, LAS, PHX, MSY, and TPA. 73S, 733, 738, M88, M90, and 72S to tons of other cities. They also had the Embraers flying to cities all over Texas, Oklahoma, Louisiana, Mississippi, Arkansas, and Wichita. Will try to post more later.

Texan
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B4REAL
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RE: DL Hub At DFW

Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:53 am

Quoting Texan (Reply 8):
777s and 764s went to ATL

Was the 777 regular to ATL? I remember the MD-11 regular to ATL but only remember the 777 to DFW on DL as special situation (show employees new c/s).

[Edited 2005-08-01 18:57:23]
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drerx7
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RE: DL Hub At DFW

Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:53 am

I remember going via DFW on DL and I believe getting on my first 757 as well from DFW to IAH.
HOUSTON, TEXAS
 
FlewGSW
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RE: DL Hub At DFW

Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:54 am

When DL moved from Love to DFW in 1974, they operated about 50 departures a day to:

ATL (competed with EA), LAX and SFO (competed with AA), and airports they had all to themselves such as LAS and most airports between DFW and ATL like SHV, MLU, JAN, BHM. By 1974, DL had already abandoned the 747 and were left flying L-1011s, Super DC-8s, DC-9-30s, and 727-200s.

When Delta promoted their terminal 4E in the 1990s as "Easy Street" just after they opened up that satellite terminal and had built out terminal 4E to the maximum size (known today as terminal E) (originally in 1974 only two thirds of terminal 4E were built with CO operating from the north third and DL from the east third), they had flights to just about everywhere domestically that AA had, and usually did it with larger airplanes.

In the early years of DFW, the landing fees were extremely high, so much so that AA chose to only fly 727s into the airport as 707s, DC-10s, and 747s just cost too much in landing fees.
 
stirling
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RE: DL Hub At DFW

Tue Aug 02, 2005 2:29 am

The Dallas, then Dallas/Fort Worth hub was always an important piece of the Delta network. Even before deregulation, DAL/DFW connected the California/West routes into the Southeast markets.

When Delta operated all three widebody types, DAL/DFW got more than it's fair share.
In 1976, Delta operated the 747 on these routes:
ATL-DFW-LAS,
LAS-DFW-ATL
ATL-DFW-LAX (return flight bypassed DFW n/s to ATL)

But it was the L1011 that was the wide-body workhorse in the Delta fleet, and DFW saw a few:
JAX-ATL-DFW-SFO
MSY-DFW-SFO
LAX-DFW-MSY-ATL
SAN-LAX-DFW-MSY-ATL
ATL-DFW-LAX
SAN-LAX-DFW-ATL-JAX
ATL-MSY-DFW-LAX-SAN
SFO-DFW-ATL
MCO-DFW-LAX-SAN
LAX-DFW-MCO
SAN-LAX-DFW-MSY
ATL-DFW-LAX

(Interestingly, Delta also sent the L1011 on: MEM-MSY, DAY-DTW, MEM-ORD)

50 flights per day departed from DFW in 1976.
Nonstop destinations were: ESF*, ATL, BHM, JAN, LAS, LAX, MLU, MSY, MCO, PHX, SFO, and SHV.
*Alexandria, LA
--------------------------

By 1982, Deregulation was here, and expansion into the west gave DFW a moderate steroid injection. The 747s were now gone, the L1011s centered around ATL for the most part, DFW was very much a 727 hub; but still, DL had many TriStar flights via DFW; the second busiest city for the type after ATL:

FLL-DFW-LAX
SAN-DFW-ATL
DFW-ATL
LAX-DFW-FLL
LAX-DFW
MSY-DFW-SFO
ATL-DFW-LAX
SFO-DFW-MSY
ATL-DFW
ATL-MSY-DFW-LAX
DFW-ATL

(Other interesting routes for the L1011 were: ATL-TYS, ATL-SEA-PDX, ATL-BNA, LGA-IAH, YUL-BOS)

In 1982, Daily flights out of DFW numbered 77.

New n/s destinations from DFW were: BOS, BTR, CVG, FLL, SEA, SLC, SAT, AUS, and RNO.
-------------------------

In 1986, the expansion continued, the Western merger was still a couple of years away.

Delta had 180 mainline departures, while the new "Delta Connection" partner Rio Airways provided additional lift to Lawton, Wichita Falls, San Angelo, Kileen, Waco, Bryan and Texarkana.
New mainline cities gaining nonstops to DFW included: HNL, PDX, ONT, SAN, ABQ, ELP, OKC, TUL, SDF, LGA, PHL, LBB, AMA, MAF, BWI, DTW, BNA, PBI, MIA, RDU, IAD, and internationally FRA.

Every type in the fleet visited DFW at some time during the day.
Delta operated (and sent to DFW) the:
L-1011-1
L-1011-500
767-200
757-200
737-200
727-200
DC-8 (60 series)
DC-9

Rio at the time flew Beechcraft 1900 under the Delta Connection banner.(While at other times independently they've utilized other typers such as the DHC-7)


More DL at DFW through the years to follow later.....
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commavia
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RE: DL Hub At DFW

Tue Aug 02, 2005 2:39 am

The DL hub of 2004 was a shadow of its former self. DL's hub, IIRC, reached its peak around 1992-1993, with approximately 250 daily departures. From then on, it went nowhere but downhill.

Quoting B4real (Reply 5):
The DL DFW hub that closed earlier this year had mostly RJ flights, but I think there were 11 cities served mainline or maybe it was 11 cities + ATL/SLC/CVG.

True. As of 2004, the DL DFW hub had mainline service:

1x daily to ABQ (738)
13x daily to ATL (M80/M90/738/757/767/763)
3x daily to BOS (M80/738)
3x daily to CVG (M80/738)
3x daily to LAS (M90/738)
4x daily to LAX (M80/M90/738)
3x daily to LGA (M80)
4x daily to MCO (M80/M90/767)
6x daily to SLC (733/M90/738/767)
3x daily to SAN (733/M80/738)
3x daily to SFO (733/M90/738)
4x daily to SEA (M90)
3x daily to TPA (M90)

Generally speaking, up until the end, DL's only real strength at DFW and in the DFW market was their ability to utilize RJs in harnessing the brand penetration and market power of DL's overall network in the southeastern U.S. DL connected DFW with cities throughout the southeast AA didn't serve at all and used DFW to connect those cities with the west. However, since DL's pullout from DFW, American Eagle has begun linking DFW with many of these cities (PNS, GPT, VPS, CHA and CAE, with CHS rumored to be coming soon).
 
Lono
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RE: DL Hub At DFW

Tue Aug 02, 2005 5:18 am

Quoting Lono (Reply 7):
DL Metal 727 DFW-MEX-DFW and DFW-PVR-DFW flights daily...

I forgot DFW-ACA-DFW...!!!!! So 3 mexico flights and the Frankfurt flight daily
Wally Bird Ruled the Skys!
 
FLAIRPORT
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RE: DL Hub At DFW

Tue Aug 02, 2005 5:45 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 13):
True. As of 2004, the DL DFW hub had mainline service:

DFW-FLL-DFW...stuck with it till the end! One of my favorite routes. (738) That route went from L1011s to MD80 and everywhere in between (including MD90 and 757)
NEXT FLIGHT: FLL-ATL-HPN on FL
 
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drerx7
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RE: DL Hub At DFW

Tue Aug 02, 2005 5:58 am

Quoting FLAIRPORT (Reply 15):
DFW-FLL-DFW...stuck with it till the end! One of my favorite routes. (738) That route went from L1011s to MD80 and everywhere in between (including MD90 and 757)

Thats the infamous route that DL191 (IIRC) crashed at DFW due to windshear on.
HOUSTON, TEXAS
 
stirling
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RE: DL Hub At DFW

Tue Aug 02, 2005 6:02 am

Yesterday was the anniversary of the DL 727 crash at DFW.
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drerx7
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RE: DL Hub At DFW

Tue Aug 02, 2005 6:05 am

Quoting Stirling (Reply 17):
Yesterday was the anniversary of the DL 727 crash at DFW.

What was the routing of that 727 flight?
HOUSTON, TEXAS
 
N160LH
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RE: DL Hub At DFW

Tue Aug 02, 2005 6:11 am

Quoting Stirling (Reply 17):
Yesterday was the anniversary of the DL 727 crash at DFW

Wrong yesterday was the 20th anniversary of Flight 191!!! Which was the L1011 that got hit by windshear....

Quoting B4real (Reply 9):
Quoting Texan (Reply 8):
777s and 764s went to ATL

Was the 777 regular to ATL? I remember the MD-11 regular to ATL but only remember the 777 to DFW on DL as special situation (show employees new c/s).

The Mothers 777's were never scheduled into DFW, but did come in on equipment swaps every once in a while....

N160LH
"I do alright up in the air, its down on the ground that I tend to mess up..."
 
N160LH
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RE: DL Hub At DFW

Tue Aug 02, 2005 6:15 am

Quoting Drerx7 (Reply 18):
Quoting Stirling (Reply 17):
Yesterday was the anniversary of the DL 727 crash at DFW.

What was the routing of that 727 flight?

The flight that "Stirling" is talking about was DL 1141 (N473DA) on Aug. 31, 1988 DFW-SLC.

N160LH

[Edited 2005-08-01 23:35:04]
"I do alright up in the air, its down on the ground that I tend to mess up..."
 
commavia
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RE: DL Hub At DFW

Tue Aug 02, 2005 6:39 am

Quoting Drerx7 (Reply 16):
Thats the infamous route that DL191 (IIRC) crashed at DFW due to windshear on.

Yep. The L1011 was flying FLL-DFW and crashed upon landing at DFW. I know several people who were on the tarmac a few hundred feet away when the plane crashed. They were sitting in an MD80 waiting to depart for FLL and remember the scene vividly -- they taxied over to the south end of the airport and sat on the runway for 2.5 hours waiting to take off.

Quoting Drerx7 (Reply 16):
Yesterday was the anniversary of the DL 727 crash at DFW.

No, it was DL191 -- the L1011 that crashed into the tank at the northeast corner of the airport.

Even today, if you look on the Google Maps satellite image of DFW --

Look for the cargo ramp in the northeast corner of the airfield. Just to the upper left of it are two large, white tanks. You can see an open spot right north of the top one where the third tank used to be, before it was destroyed by the crash of DL191.
 
JayDavis
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RE: DL Hub At DFW

Tue Aug 02, 2005 6:44 am

I flew on a DL 767 flight in 1994 from DFW to FRA, for my honeymoon. I don't know what other international destinations they flew from DFW at the time though. I am still so sorry to see DL close down the DFW hub.

Concerning DL 191, last night on Channel 8, they had a big feature on the crash, how people learned so much from that crash since it had a digital flight recorder (I believe) on it.........it also changed the way local news stories were reported on as well, according to WFAA-TV.

I remember I was living in Lubbock at the time and CNN was using WFAA TV's live feed for their stories as well.

Wow !!


Jay
 
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RE: DL Hub At DFW

Tue Aug 02, 2005 7:21 am

A small tidbit: When DL tried to start their "Mexican expansion" from DFW, they started with 2 cities. One of them was MEX (obviously), but the second was a rather weird choice. No CUN, no GDL, no MTY. Instead, they started service to Puebla. Never understood that move. For some reason saw a market there that never came into existence, as was evidenced by the fast withdrawal after less than a year.
 
WesternDC1010
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RE: DL Hub At DFW

Tue Aug 02, 2005 8:57 am

Quoting Stirling (Reply 17):


Yesterday was the anniversary of the DL 727 crash at DFW.



Quoting N160LH (Reply 19):


Wrong yesterday was the 20th anniversary of Flight 191!!! Which was the L1011 that got hit by windshear....


The 20th anniversary of this tragedy is on August 02, 2005. I was celebrating my 15th birthday on the day this happened.

http://www.airdisaster.com/cgi-bin/v...85®=N726DA&airline=Delta+Air+Lines

- Ron
Western DC-10-10

[Edited 2005-08-02 02:00:10]
Western Airlines - The Only Way To Fly
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: DL Hub At DFW

Tue Aug 02, 2005 9:44 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 21):
Look for the cargo ramp in the northeast corner of the airfield. Just to the upper left of it are two large, white tanks. You can see an open spot right north of the top one where the third tank used to be, before it was destroyed by the crash of DL191.

DL-191(H) first was forced down into a field 750' of State Highway 114, became airborne again before touching down again, still north of SH 114, then rolled across 114, hitting the car driven by the Toyota of Irving machanic (west bound), killing him. As 191 rolled across the east bound lanes, the main gear strattled another car, missing by just inches on each end. Airborne again, for less than 100'.

The car they hit on 114,forced a yaw to the left. They hit the #2 ground level water tank, releasing 1,000,000 gallons of water into the crash site. The foreward portion of the L-1011, crushed and actually went under the water tank. A FA was later found (about 3 weeks later)15' under the tank and 45' from the original edge.

The tail snapped off and ended in the grass between the East Airfreight Ramp and Runway 17L (now called 17C). This is the section where all 32 survivors were found.

Of note, several peices of the burning wreckage continued onto almost hitting 2 parked UPS DC-8-71s, being loaded with cargo and had lots of people around them.

The water tank was repaired. There were then, as now only 2 tanks there, not 3.

138 soles died in the crash of DL-191(H), including 1 on the ground. Today is the 20 annerversy of that crash. There were only 32 survivors. Weather was the primary cause of the accident.

Quoting N160LH (Reply 20):
The flight that "Stirling" is talking about was DL 1141 (N473DA) on Aug. 31, 1988 DFW-SLC.

That is correct, that was the B-727-200 crash. It was departing on runway 18L and crashed into a gully just 1500' south of the departure end. This was pilot error as the flaps were never set for take-off.
 
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ATA L1011
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RE: DL Hub At DFW

Tue Aug 02, 2005 10:40 am

Quoting Drerx7 (Reply 1):

[quote=Drerx7,reply=1][/quote
Actually the -250's did the FLT 17 and 16 from DFW TO HNL AND HNL TO DFW.
Treat others as you expect to be treated!
 
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drerx7
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RE: DL Hub At DFW

Tue Aug 02, 2005 11:23 am

Quoting ATA L1011 (Reply 26):
Actually the -250's did the FLT 17 and 16 from DFW TO HNL AND HNL TO DFW

I was on a -500 I remember the short body. It was listed in all timetables as L15 as well.
HOUSTON, TEXAS
 
N160LH
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RE: DL Hub At DFW

Tue Aug 02, 2005 11:25 am

Quoting WesternDC1010 (Reply 24):
The 20th anniversary of this tragedy is on August 02, 2005. I was celebrating my 15th birthday on the day this happened.

http://www.airdisaster.com/cgi-bin/v...85®=N726DA&airline=Delta+Air+Lines

- Ron
Western DC-10-10

You are absolutely correct.... Sorry about that, saw the article in the Star-Telegram about DL191 yesterday and did not even think about what the date was.... Damn I hate it when days start to run together....!

N160LH
"I do alright up in the air, its down on the ground that I tend to mess up..."
 
nonrevman
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RE: DL Hub At DFW

Tue Aug 02, 2005 12:34 pm

It is indeed sad to see the hub go with all the jobs that came along with it. Flight 191 was featured on the Sunday front page, showing the infamous photo of the tail section. A lot of people who worked for DL at the time have vivid memories of the crash. I think it was inbound from FLL.

I started working for DL in 1998, so the hub had already started its slow decline. Yet, it seemed like a healthy hub even at that moment. There was still the L1011 nonstop to HNL. Most of the major cities in the US were served, with some exceptions such as STL, ORD, MSP, MCI, and DTW. The routes tended to be mainly east-west. The RJ's gradually assumed mainline routes and added some new cities. It did not take long to figure out that someday the hub would not be there anymore. Then came 9-11 and the big losses. Few people were shocked when the announcement did finally come, although there was some considerable surprise that DL connection would be completely gone and the hangar would shut down. For the most part, it was a good seven years, except for the end between the September announcement and the closure at the end of January. Yet, I am glad that I got another job and decided not to go to ATL. A lot of people who moved regret thier decision. Even though the airline industry will never again regain its full glory, hopefully there is some kind of comeback in the future for Delta and the other carriers.
 
jdaniel001
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RE: DL Hub At DFW

Tue Aug 02, 2005 12:46 pm

Both FRA and HNL were L1011's. FRA switched between the -500 and the -250. The HNL only flew the larger versions of the L1011, unless routing changes put a -500 on it. The FRA flight was a pig (airline slang for heavy).

Quoting ORD (Reply 6):
October, 1988: Delta opens its nine-gate satellite expansion to Terminal 4E, designed to handle widebody flights

The satelitte was actually supposed to be a pair (the second was never built) and it was never to accomadate widebodies.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 21):
Look for the cargo ramp in the northeast corner of the airfield. Just to the upper left of it are two large, white tanks. You can see an open spot right north of the top one where the third tank used to be, before it was destroyed by the crash of DL191.

The water tanks were actually repaired. I don't recall any of them being removed.

Delta also had 2 other accidents at DFW. DL1141 was a no flap takeoff and pancaked into the field just south of the runway. And a 737-200 lost an engine (literally) on takeoff, circled back around and landed safetly on the west diagional.
We Are UNITED!
 
commavia
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RE: DL Hub At DFW

Tue Aug 02, 2005 12:58 pm

Quoting Jdaniel001 (Reply 30):
The water tanks were actually repaired. I don't recall any of them being removed.

My mistake then, sorry! I thought I remembered on being gone, but I guess not.
 
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ramprat74
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RE: DL Hub At DFW

Tue Aug 02, 2005 2:22 pm

Quoting ORD (Reply 6):
October, 1988: Delta opens its nine-gate satellite expansion to Terminal 4E, designed to handle widebody flights

The satellite had ground level Jetways. You saw mostly MD-88's parked there.
 
3201
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RE: DL Hub At DFW

Tue Aug 02, 2005 4:11 pm

Quoting Commavia (Reply 21):
Yep. The L1011 was flying FLL-DFW and crashed upon landing at DFW. I know several people who were on the tarmac a few hundred feet away when the plane crashed. They were sitting in an MD80 waiting to depart for FLL and remember the scene vividly -- they taxied over to the south end of the airport and sat on the runway for 2.5 hours waiting to take off.

I was on a 727-200 TPA-DFW that day, and after holding for about an hour, we got the announcement that the airport was re-opened and we could go land. We started descending, but then started climbing again and made a turn, and they announced a "change of plans," that we were diverting to OKC. When we got to OKC, it was empty, and we got a gate with a jetway, but weren't allowed off. More and more planes started landing, though, and were just parked, and after a while we somehow heard that there had been a DL crash into DFW -- we must have been very close behind 191, maybe even right behind.

We were on the ground for, I dunno, at least 2 hours, maybe more like 4 or more. When we got airborne again, they announced that, "as some of you may have heard," there had been an "incident," and that they had no idea what things would be like in DFW, but that it would probably be pretty chaotic, and that anyone connecting should ignore their booked flight and just go to the next flight to their destination and hope for the best, and to please be very patient with the ground staff, who would likely be both a bit shaken and overworked. We were on our way to LAS and went straight to the next LAS flight, which was departing right on time (and right away), a DC8-71 (we'd been booked on a L1011 DFW-LAS, and I'd never been on one before, thought all sorts of things were conspiring to keep me off them, even a crash!). I met two girls on the TPA-DFW whose father worked for DL, and they were non-revving to LAX, and it's not too surprising but they later told me they didn't get on a flight at all, had to spend the night in the airport (I think at least in a crew lounge or something).
7 hours aint long-haul
 
3201
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RE: DL Hub At DFW

Tue Aug 02, 2005 4:52 pm

Quoting ORD" class=quote target=_blank>ORD (Reply 6):
1993: DFW flights at their peak with 257

Just barely edging out the September 1, 1991 system timetable I just found lying around, which has 255 daily (or x6/x7) mainline departures (plus EMB/EM2 not shown here):

ACA x1
ABQ x5
AMA x3
ATL x11
AUS x9
BWI x2
BTR x5
BHM x1
BOS x3
page 112 total: 40

ORD x4
CVG x3 (plus a 763 on Tues afternoon only!)
COS x3
CRP x3
DEN x5
DTW x3
ELP x5
FLL x3
RSW x2
FRA x1
page 113 total: 32

IAH x9
HOU x6
HSV x1
IND x2
JAN x4
JAX x2
MCI x5
TYS x2
LAS x4
LIT x5
page 114 total: 40

LAX x5
SDF x3
LBB x4
MEM x6
MEX x2
MIA x3
MOB x1
MLU x1 (73S PHL-DFW-MLU-JAN-ATL)
BNA x4
MSY x6
LGA x5
EWR x4
OAK x2
OKC x8
ONT x3
SNA x4
MCO x4
page 115 total: 65

PNS x2
PHL x3
PHX x5
PDX x2
RDU x2
RNO x2
SMF x2
SLC x5
SAT x9
SAN x5
SFO x5
SJC x3
SEA x3
SHV x6
TPA x4
page 116 total: 60

TUS x3
TUL x6
DCA x5
PBI x1
ICT x3
page 117 total: 18

Total: 255

Several of these were widebodies. Also most of the flights to points in LA/MS/AL were the two-stop DFW-xxx-yyy-ATL flights, so tons of 1-stops in there also. If anyone wants any specific details, let me know and I'll post.
7 hours aint long-haul
 
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drerx7
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RE: DL Hub At DFW

Tue Aug 02, 2005 9:26 pm

Quoting Jdaniel001 (Reply 30):
Both FRA and HNL were L1011's. FRA switched between the -500 and the -250. The HNL only flew the larger versions of the L1011, unless routing changes put a -500 on it. The FRA flight was a pig (airline slang for heavy).

Did DL use the L15 designation in timetables to stand for -500s and -250s? As long as I can remember the DFW-HNL route was designated a -500, and in fact when I flew the ATL-DFW leg it definately was a L1011-500; perhaps that wasn't the normal ship?
HOUSTON, TEXAS
 
ord
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RE: DL Hub At DFW

Tue Aug 02, 2005 10:51 pm

Quoting Jdaniel001 (Reply 30):
The satelitte was actually supposed to be a pair (the second was never built) and it was never to accomadate widebodies.

I have every Delta annual report going back to the 1970s, and in a few of those reports in the mid-1980s it specifically says the satellite was being designed to handle nine widebody jets. I realize this never happened but according to the annual reports that was the plan.

I never read or heard anything about a second satellite, so it may have just been a possibility if Delta ever outgrew its gates. It certainly never got any sort of Delta approval for construction and is not mentioned in any of the annual reports or industry articles I have. Would it have been parallel to the existing satellite or on the opposite end of the horseshoe?
 
deltaffindfw
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RE: DL Hub At DFW

Tue Aug 02, 2005 11:00 pm

It wouldn't surprise me if there was a possible second satellite. Today, over by NW, there is the old DL gate 3 - which is nothing but a set of escalators down to the lower level.

DL did use that gate when they were running out of space for the EMB-120s and parked them on the remote stand behind gates 10-11-12.
 
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ramprat74
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RE: DL Hub At DFW

Tue Aug 02, 2005 11:53 pm

I sure wouldn't want to be in that satellite if there were 9 widebodies parked there at one time. That would be a nightmare.
 
jdaniel001
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RE: DL Hub At DFW

Wed Aug 03, 2005 12:24 am

Quoting ORD (Reply 36):
I have every Delta annual report going back to the 1970s, and in a few of those reports in the mid-1980s it specifically says the satellite was being designed to handle nine widebody jets. I realize this never happened but according to the annual reports that was the plan.

I never read or heard anything about a second satellite, so it may have just been a possibility if Delta ever outgrew its gates. It certainly never got any sort of Delta approval for construction and is not mentioned in any of the annual reports or industry articles I have. Would it have been parallel to the existing satellite or on the opposite end of the horseshoe?

The second satelitte was to go where the remote pad is/was and the online drivers were. I can't speak for the annual reports, but I do have the article from the Dallas Morning News about it. I was when they made there big expansion plans in the early 80's. Also, annual reports talk about ideas and concepts. The reality is that they have to get building code approval. Nine widebody jets would never get past the code department.

Quoting DeltaFFinDFW (Reply 37):
It wouldn't surprise me if there was a possible second satellite. Today, over by NW, there is the old DL gate 3 - which is nothing but a set of escalators down to the lower level.

DL did use that gate when they were running out of space for the EMB-120s and parked them on the remote stand behind gates 10-11-12.

The escalators were installed for the busing operation to the remote pad. When ASA flew their ATR's out of DFW prior to the move to the satelitte, they parked the ATR's and overflow EMB120's on the remote pad.

Quoting Drerx7 (Reply 35):
Did DL use the L15 designation in timetables to stand for -500s and -250s? As long as I can remember the DFW-HNL route was designated a -500, and in fact when I flew the ATL-DFW leg it definately was a L1011-500; perhaps that wasn't the normal ship?

I don't know about designations but, a -500 was a rare sight on Flt. 16/17 from 1993 the flight ended. I had my camara with me almost everyday at work and I would have diffiantely snapped some. I do know that there were equipment swaps.
We Are UNITED!
 
deltaffindfw
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RE: DL Hub At DFW

Wed Aug 03, 2005 12:29 am

While they might have stated in the annual reports that they wanted the satellite to house 9 widebodies, I am pretty sure that the actualy building that was built cannot hold it.

Look at this picture. It seems pretty tight.


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avpilot01
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RE: DL Hub At DFW

Wed Aug 03, 2005 12:34 am

I sure do miss the DL I used to know. I used to work for DL during the summer's at DFW and I found that working for DL was a way of life. I worked the HNL flight a couple of time on the L1011. Man I loved that airplane. I remember friendly staff(for the most part), great co-workers, cool atmosphere. Now when I take CO to DFW all I see are empty gates of an airline that once was. Gates I used to board passengers/families from, now are empty and barron. I work for CO now but DL will always hold a special place with me. Sorry I kind of got off topic but I wanted to share my DL experience with everyone. Good luck to all the airline employees worldwide. The airline business is in a state of change, let's hope DL and CO survive the battle.
 
commavia
Posts: 11489
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: DL Hub At DFW

Wed Aug 03, 2005 12:57 am

I vividly remember years and years of rolling past on the DL terminal E (formerly 4E ... goin' back a ways!) either on the way to or from the runway. I must say that for me, personally, it was quite sad then and now to see the precipitous decline of DL's presence in the DFW area.

I can remember back around 1995-1996-1997, DL still had a pretty sizeable mainline presence at DFW, and I remember walking in their terminal even back in 1999 or 2000 and the place was pretty busy with mostly mainline flights going out across the country.

Things all started to change, though, around 2000. I should have seen the writing on the wall when the HNL flight got cut. I know the whole pilot issue, but I think that the cut was still a harbinger for things to come for DL and DFW. Since about 2000-2001, and obviously greatly exacerbated by 9/11, it was nothing but cuts and reductions through 2003, when DL basically turned DFW into a mostly RJ hub, and then 2004, when they left altogether.

Taxiing past Terminal E now is like looking at a ghost town. It's deserted -- especially the high E gates and the satellite. Some of those gates have literally probably not actually handled an aircraft in over two years, as some of the DL gates at the terminal were retracted and boarding doors used for RJs to pull up.

I understand that DL at DFW was somewhat unrealistic from the start and DL really had no chance. As the old airline adage goes, there is a huge difference between being a close #2 at a hub and being a distant #2. AA at ORD is a close #2. DL at DFW was not. AA had more flights, to more cities, with bigger planes, than DL could ever hope for. It was nice while it lasted.
 
OttoPylit
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RE: DL Hub At DFW

Wed Aug 03, 2005 1:00 am

Since this question is about DFW and the L10, maybe someone can clarify for me. I flew DFW-HNL in the summer of 1999. Did that route fly with an L-1011-250 or was is a 500? I don't remember ever flying the -500, but if that flight was a -500, then it will be one more a/c type for me.

Does anyone happen to know what version of the L-1011 was used for DFW-HNL in the summer of 1999?

Thanks.


Otto
I don't have a microwave, but I do have a clock that occasionally cooks shit.
 
B4REAL
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RE: DL Hub At DFW

Wed Aug 03, 2005 1:05 am

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 43):
I understand that DL at DFW was somewhat unrealistic from the start and DL really had no chance.

I don't know about that statement. DL was successful @ DFW for a while. I think DFW could have AA #1 and DL #2 both with hub operations - but not with WN @ DAL doing their thing. Dallas / Fort Worth can't be a three hub town.
B4REAL, spelled like it sounds & @RickVanover on Twitter
 
commavia
Posts: 11489
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RE: DL Hub At DFW

Wed Aug 03, 2005 1:12 am

Quoting B4real (Reply 44):
I think DFW could have AA #1 and DL #2 both with hub operations - but not with WN @ DAL doing their thing. Dallas / Fort Worth can't be a three hub town.

No doubt WN had a role to play, but I don't think a really big one. WN only flies (at least as of now) from DAL to cities within Texas and a few surrounding states. WN's route system stemming from the Dallas area has very little impact on AA or DL as they really don't (didn't past-tense) compete with WN on too many routes relative to their whole operations at DFW. AA and DL only really competed with WN on flights from DFW to cities like AUS, IAH, SAT, LIT, MSY, ELP, etc., and these are all cities where WN already dominates anyway. AA and DL were filling up these flights with connecting passengers from outside of the region, whereas WN basically controls O&D.

IMO, DL and DFW was on borrowed time with or without WN in the marketplace. While I agree that DFW could not sustain three airline hubs long-term, especially after 9/11, WN's DAL operation really isn't too much of a hub, as it only really offers connections within a very specific geographically region. DL's hub at DFW was doomed to fail, IMO, because DL never reached any critical mass at DFW compared with AA, which was always so much bigger, much like UA and MIA only on a much larger scale.
 
B4REAL
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RE: DL Hub At DFW

Wed Aug 03, 2005 1:17 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 45):
WN only flies (at least as of now) from DAL to cities within Texas and a few surrounding states. WN's route system stemming from the Dallas area has very little impact on AA or DL as they really don't .......

I disagree. WN killed DL - maybe surpassing AA - on inter-Texas frequencies in direct competition markets. That really killed (final nail in the coffin) DL's abilty to hub in DFW, IMHO.
B4REAL, spelled like it sounds & @RickVanover on Twitter
 
deltaffindfw
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Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2003 7:42 am

RE: DL Hub At DFW

Wed Aug 03, 2005 1:21 am

Also, remember that DFW was in it's hey day before CVG was really in operation.

I grew up in CVG and was there when the new Concourses opened in 1994 - they specifically stated that the growth would come from DFW. CVG was to be the #2 hub - at the expense of DFW.
 
commavia
Posts: 11489
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: DL Hub At DFW

Wed Aug 03, 2005 1:23 am

Quoting B4real (Reply 46):
That really killed (final nail in the coffin) DL's abilty to hub in DFW, IMHO.

DL's problem at DFW wasn't the 1-hr shorthaul flights -- they simply turned those over to DCI with CRJs back in 2003 and they were actually doing okay. DL was able to increase frequency to cities like AUS, SAT, IAH and LIT, albeit up against AA's MD80s, which was the bigger problem. But DL's biggest problem wasn't their shorthaul flights, it was the longhaul, which WN had almost no impact over. DL was flying CRJs towards the end on 3-hr flights to DCA, ONT, OAK and other cities up against AA M80s, 737s and 757s. DL couldn't compete.
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5507
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

RE: DL Hub At DFW

Wed Aug 03, 2005 1:31 am

Quoting B4real (Reply 44):
I don't know about that statement. DL was successful @ DFW for a while.

Actually, DL was NEVER very successful at DFW. DL admitted that in the last 13 years of the DFW hub, it was only profitable for 2 of those 13 years. This is particularly poor when you consider that the 13 year time period includes the boom of the late 90's.

As much as I don't believe in shrinking to profitability, axing the DFW hub was a smart move by DL management. The only dumb thing was not axing it sooner.

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