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KarlB737
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Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Thu Aug 04, 2005 2:14 am

Courtesy: WCCO-TV

http://wcco.com/topstories/local_story_215115157.html


Courtesy: KSTP-TV

http://kstp.com/article/stories/S9709.html?cat=1


Courtesy: WCCO-TV

NWA Partners Vow To Keep Flying If Strike Occurs

http://wcco.com/traffic/local_story_215102519.html
 
KarlB737
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Thu Aug 04, 2005 7:32 am

 
slider
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Thu Aug 04, 2005 7:44 am

Wow. I wonder if there will be any last minute discussions or offers from either group.

This is beyond ugly and there's 16 days left to self-help.
 
tnsaf
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Thu Aug 04, 2005 8:20 am

Northwest wants them to go. Lock the doors and outsource it all. Keep a few on for line maintenance and that is it. Easier to manage contractors than the union.
700 hours and counting...
 
Pope
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Thu Aug 04, 2005 8:22 am

Ask the Eastern mechanics how well their strategy worked.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
isitsafenow
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Thu Aug 04, 2005 8:25 am

Here's my two cents...If those mechanics walk, they are unemployed and terminated with NW. That's means they will hook up with another company and start at the bottom of the scale like a rookie out of A&P school. If it were me, I would go to work at NW because what I have left after Aug 19th has to be better then the bottom of the ladder with a new company?
What's your call on this, folks?
safe
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
 
supa7E7
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Thu Aug 04, 2005 8:33 am

The mechanics union is already broken at this point.

One way or another, NW will get exactly it wants.

I guess those who think it sucks can either (1) buy NW or (2) start their own airline. It's a free country.
"Who's to say spaceships aren't fine art?" - Phil Lesh
 
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ual747den
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Thu Aug 04, 2005 8:36 am

HA HA HA Funny! Now we will see how smart they are! They don't want to negotiate with NW and now they will no longer have a job. NW has nothing to loose they already have trained MX ready to go to work. NW is about to go BK and is offering all that they can, its not good enough for the MX they must know of a different company that would offer them more so more power to them they should apply there because they are going to be without a job in a few weeks.
Unions have to eventually learn that enough is enough and the airline has to watch out for itself. The airlines job is to stay alive and keep the shareholders happy, they cannot expect to be paid 100% more than the market warrants. If NW can find help for half the price the MX need to adjust to that or why wouldn't NW get rid of them?

Bye Bye NW MX you got what you deserved
Frontier Airlines - Low Fares Done Right
 
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mariner
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Thu Aug 04, 2005 8:47 am

Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 7):
NW is about to go BK and is offering all that they can,

Hmmm.

NWA have 9 x daily MSP-DEN. Tomorrow, you can get a round trip for $118 on any of those flights.

No airline is making money on $118 round trips. Three days ago, you get MSP-DEN for $112.

I note that oil is over $60 a barrel. I note that NWA is on track to lose close to a billion dollars this year.

Perhaps - just perhaps - if NWA started scheduling and pricing rationally, they might be able to pay their staff.

Just perhaps.

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
searpqx
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Thu Aug 04, 2005 8:51 am

Do you really think that these mechanics don't realize that the company has pretty much already won, and that if they strike they'll lose their jobs? I would guess that every mechanic at NW knows that they can either quit or cave to management. Seems to me that by being willing to strike, they're pretty much indicating that they're willing to quit, and they're going to do it in the only manner that they have to send the message they want to send.

Whether you agree with their action or not, give them credit for having the courage to decide that it isn't worth their dignity to cave, for being willing to walk away from their job.

Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 7):
Bye Bye NW MX you got what you deserved

If you ever have the misfortune of working in a position under conditions that are no longer tolerable to you, just remember, that you obviously, 'desereved' to be there.
"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
 
YANQUI67
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Thu Aug 04, 2005 8:58 am

Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 7):
NW has nothing to loose they already have trained MX ready to go to work.

Yeah, They are called Scabs. From what I heard they are currently training those guys, and when it is time to go to work, they are not. Technically training is not scabbing. God help help them if they do go to work. They will have very miserable futures.
Gus
 
Braniff727
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Thu Aug 04, 2005 9:06 am

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 9):
Whether you agree with their action or not, give them credit for having the courage to decide that it isn't worth their dignity to cave, for being willing to walk away from their job.

What about the NWA AMFA members, few as they are, that want to accept the paycuts in order to save their jobs? They don't have a choice in the matter, as NWA has all but stated they are going to lock the mechanics out?

Is it fair to them?
Climbing
 
supa7E7
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Thu Aug 04, 2005 9:06 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 8):
Perhaps - just perhaps - if NWA started scheduling and pricing rationally, they might be able to pay their staff.

Mariner,

If NW prices higher, they will have zero people flying. 2005 would be NW's final year if they simply raised fares.

As for scheduling, NW is not a bunch of dummies. Perhaps they are competing fiercely on MSP-DEN (and losing money) becuase if they showed weakness, Frontier would come to MSP and set up shop. Then NW would lose tons of money.
"Who's to say spaceships aren't fine art?" - Phil Lesh
 
LMP737
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Thu Aug 04, 2005 9:07 am

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 9):
If you ever have the misfortune of working in a position under conditions that are no longer tolerable to you, just remember, that you obviously, 'desereved' to be there.

You have to consider the source. UAL747DEN is a product of nepotism. The position he holds is more likely the result of a family member putting him there. Not because of his "education" or skill. Although he will likely tell you how knowledgeable he is. Most 23 years olds a year or two out of college are usually more than willing to tell everyone how they have everything figured out.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
FriendlySkies
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Thu Aug 04, 2005 9:20 am

NW Management: "Yes!"
AMFA: "Yes!"
Employees: "Awwwww f**k!"

I swear, the unions/management of all airlines need to stop putting their god damn petty disputes in front of the well-being of their employees...you'd have thought Eastern would have taught them, but nope. *sigh*
 
727LOVER
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Thu Aug 04, 2005 9:21 am

From the article:

Mechanics came close to striking in 2001, but President George W. Bush stepped in to avert a strike.
The White House has said it will not intervene this time.


WHY?????? What's the difference this time Dubya?
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
FriendlySkies
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Thu Aug 04, 2005 9:25 am

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 15):
WHY?????? What's the difference this time Dubya?

Dubya doesn't care if the employees lose their jobs, he just wants to make sure the big business is ok. If NW has back-up employees waiting, why should he intervene?
 
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mariner
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Thu Aug 04, 2005 9:28 am

Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 12):
If NW prices higher, they will have zero people flying. 2005 would be NW's final year if they simply raised fares.

That's odd. They have an 87% load factor. Frontier is charging more - United is charging more and both have a similar load factor.

So - why would NWA lose passengers?

And, since everyone else has raised fares, if NWA charged more and went out of business because of it, perhaps they deserve to go out of business.

Coz they ain't ever going make a buck at $112.

Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 12):
As for scheduling, NW is not a bunch of dummies. Perhaps they are competing fiercely on MSP-DEN (and losing money) becuase if they showed weakness, Frontier would come to MSP and set up shop. Then NW would lose tons of money.

So - what you are saying is that the $112 fare is not rational? We agree!

But to your greater point:

Frontier has less than 50 aircraft. How could they represent any kind of threat to NWA at MSP?

What is Frontier going to do, abandon DEN and move all 49 planes to MSP? Leave DEN wide open for United and whoever? JetBlue perhaps?

Abandon their precious DEN to Mexico authorities?

I don't think so.

This dog in the manger philosophy has brought NWA to its knees. How much money are they losing in the fight against the midget Midwest at MKE?

Perhaps, just perhaps, there is another way.

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
mtnmanmakalu
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Thu Aug 04, 2005 9:35 am

Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 7):
HA HA HA Funny! Now we will see how smart they are! They don't want to negotiate with NW and now they will no longer have a job. NW has nothing to loose they already have trained MX ready to go to work. NW is about to go BK and is offering all that they can, its not good enough for the MX they must know of a different company that would offer them more so more power to them they should apply there because they are going to be without a job in a few weeks.
Unions have to eventually learn that enough is enough and the airline has to watch out for itself. The airlines job is to stay alive and keep the shareholders happy, they cannot expect to be paid 100% more than the market warrants. If NW can find help for half the price the MX need to adjust to that or why wouldn't NW get rid of them?

Bye Bye NW MX you got what you deserved

747UALDEN evidently has a HUGE chip on his shoulder against NWA and is a totally misinformed, inexperienced kid that spews s**t about all the things he knows nothing about!! Go back and read his latest posts... Get a life, "kid" and learn about the real world. Happy that people are "loosing" (can't seem to spell either) their jobs and cheering about it is sick!
And BTW, the company (UA) that you named yourself after and love, is nothing to be proud of- In bankruptcy for almost 3 years- Great role model!!

Hope you don't get sued by Frontier for stealing their motto and attaching it to your signature with UA- Get a little more creative and get some real- world experience before spewing your anti-NWA garbage!!!
I do, I don't, whatever.......
 
supa7E7
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Thu Aug 04, 2005 11:16 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 17):
What is Frontier going to do, abandon DEN and move all 49 planes to MSP? Leave DEN wide open for United and whoever? JetBlue perhaps?

Well Frontier might do MSP-LAX, which they did last year, FYI. NW had to squeeze them out with some very costly "competition" to stomp Frontier out of MSP-LAX. That is the kind of incursion NW is trying to prevent again, keeping F9 from getting frisky in MSP.

So does NW make money with their big set of DEN flights, perhaps not... in the summer. But they are staying with big equipment for hub defensive reasons.

Regarding prices, everybody has equal fares lists. When flight get full however, low prices are not as available. You must have caught NW in a situation when they were emptier than the other guys. Maybe because of the 757s or whatever big planes NW uses in DEN.

Nobody just raises fares for fun, though. Fuel surcharges have been done industry-wide and NW can't hurry that up any faster. So they have no options at all in pricing. Sorry.
"Who's to say spaceships aren't fine art?" - Phil Lesh
 
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mariner
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Thu Aug 04, 2005 11:39 am

Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 19):
So they have no options at all in pricing. Sorry.

No need to apologize, at least not to me.

NW is the one in danger of bankruptcy, NW is the one provoking a strike.

Something ain't working for 'em.  Smile

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
coa764
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Thu Aug 04, 2005 12:12 pm

Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 7):
HA HA HA Funny! Now we will see how smart they are! They don't want to negotiate with NW and now they will no longer have a job. NW has nothing to loose they already have trained MX ready to go to work. NW is about to go BK and is offering all that they can, its not good enough for the MX they must know of a different company that would offer them more so more power to them they should apply there because they are going to be without a job in a few weeks.
Unions have to eventually learn that enough is enough and the airline has to watch out for itself. The airlines job is to stay alive and keep the shareholders happy, they cannot expect to be paid 100% more than the market warrants. If NW can find help for half the price the MX need to adjust to that or why wouldn't NW get rid of them?

Bye Bye NW MX you got what you deserved

UAL747DEN is anti-union and believes that anyone in a union should be out of a job... Examples below on USAIR, notice the similarity with his recent NW post?

Quoting UAL747DEN:
Bye Bye NW MX you got what you deserved



Quoting UAL747DEN:
Bye Bye US employees, you got what you asked for!!

https://www.airliners.net/discussions...eral_aviation/read.main/1736084/6/
https://www.airliners.net/discussions...eneral_aviation/read.main/1736088/

Quoting UAL747DEN:
I don't feel sorry for the employees of US at all. They made this decision, if they would have just voted to give back they would not have to start looking for another job. Unions are a big joke and will drive a company into the ground as we see so often. The employees should know how bad the airline is doing and if they don't want to give back anything I say they just fire the union and the money that would have went to dues can now go to the airline. The airline would get more than they asked for and everyone would be happy. Now the employees that didn't want to give up anything to keep their job will have no job at all and no other airline will hire them because they will call up their own people first. If by some off chance an airline does hire them they will start off at minimum wage and at the bottom of the pole. Now for all of you people crying about how this is so bad because a lot of cities will lose their only carrier, if that is true and no other airline wants the routes, they must not be profitable routes. Why wouldn't another airline want to step in and take over a profitable route? THEY WOULD! But like you said many routes will be left with no service and those very routes are the same reason that US will be out of business, This is not a charity service. No airline should be flying a route that doesn't make money only because its the only way for people to get out. If the people don't want to pay enough money to make it profitable than they can walk for all I care. The US employees did this to themselves, they didn't want to give back and now lets see how far they go with nothing! Im sure they will wish they would have taken that pay cut when their house is foreclosed.

Bye Bye US employees, you got what you asked for!!



Quoting UAL747DEN:
Looks like I made many mad, some of you make a point others don't know what you are talking about.

First, for the people that say its not the employees, its the unions that are destroying the airline. I completely agree, however the employees are in charge of the unions. If you do not like what the unions are doing stand up against them. Overthrow them, this is the last chance you have to fight for your job or take what the union gives you. For the people that say nobody has voted for anything, well yes they have voted not to vote and that was a pretty big statement. It was basically a no vote because the employees are still not giving back and the airline is still going into the ground. Again see above!

Second, for the people that say it goes both ways, the airline management has not done enough either. I agree with that argument also. They did not do what they needed to do, but I believe now they get the point. They are no longer worrying about political pressure and they are doing what needs to be done to stay alive. (getting out of PIT) The only thing the people using this argument don't understand is that no matter how bad employees think management has been they still MUST agree to concessions or they will not have a job and management will not have a chance to fix things. This is the end of the road, you will give back and have a job or not and be on the street.

TxAgKuwait,
You cannot blame everything on management in this situation. There is no example that I can think of where you can give 100% of the blame to either side for that matter. It is clear that many employees don't agree with the union and want a chance to agree to concessions but the union will not give them that chance. That is exactly what a union should not do, and a perfect example of a power hungry union that would rather see the airline gone than feel like they have been defeated.

COA764,
No I do not work directly for any airline, however I have just as much right as anyone else to comment about anything I want. That is what a forum is for. Now what gives me even more right to comment is that I am a share holder (Although not is US thank god!)
Why is it so bad that someone that scans groceries for a living wants a little better quality of life for themselves? They work in a grocery store you moron, it isn't like they get a lot to begin with! Wake up high speed, those unions are there to protect them from the Super Wal-Mart's of the world. How well is the quality of life for that single mother of two working two jobs, one at Wal-mart 29 hours a week with no benefits because they cap her hours just below full time status. If she ever gets full time she also gets one week of vacation after one year and lousy benefits after six month with no overtime to speak of. The whole time under constant pressure to do right by everyone because she can be let go at any moment not to mention her pittance annual raise that is based off of how well you perform (translated: does your manager like you or not). That same mother of two working at the grocery store under a union contract gets a little more pay, guaranteed annual raises (based on a scale agreed to by both sides), benefits, vacation, and some sort of job security provided under the terms of the contract.
This is a great example because it fits into the airline industry perfectly. What you don't understand is that the store, or the airline has to attract customers to make money. So you have Wal-mart (LCC Airlines) and you have Kroger (USAir) Kroger employees are represented by a union and are paid a lot more for doing the exact same job as the person working at Walmart. Im most cases the person working at Wal-mart will actually work harder because they know that if they are not meeting performance standards they can be fired. Now Kroger knows that they have to keep their prices within pennies of the Walmart prices or the customers will not shop their. How do they do that when they are required to pay the employees so much more? They either need pay cuts to be made or they will go out of business because they will not be profitable. Same with the airlines, the major carriers have to try to get the cost of labor among other things low enough to compete with the LCC's or they will go out of business. This is very simple, the employees work for less or they don't have a job because when all the Kroger stores close Wal-mart will still be paying the same low wages. The only way you will ever make more is work your way into management.

I think some of the people on here fail to understand what the airline business is all about. Its about the shareholders making money, nothing else. Airlines in America are not like other airlines around the world where the government uses them to generate business for their country's other business'. Airlines in America are owned by shareholders that want to make a profit and get a return on their money. It is not good enough for an airline to just break even or make a little bit of money. Shareholders want to make a steady income on their investment and if they do not then they will not invest and there will be no airline. Right now the only thing that will save US is for concessions to be made. It seems that employees are starting to understand, however the unions wont even let it go to the polls because they don't want to be thought of as week. At this point the employees need to over power the union and make their own decision or accept the fact that they will no longer have a job. Employees must choose between 2 evils, terrible pay, or no pay at all....
Please oh please Mr Moderator Nazi, dont delete my thread.
 
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coronado
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Thu Aug 04, 2005 12:23 pm

NWA management bet that high cash balances and the talk of how ''strong'' they were relative to UAL would attract Asian customers to NWA due to UAL b/k. They bet wrong. Instead their 2-3 billion cash balances (all of it of course drawn down from NWA's ''credit card'' but that aspect was never highlighted) signalled to NWA labour that they were immune from the drastic cuts that AA labour took to avert b/k and that UAL and US labour took as a result of b/k. The only thing that may keep NWA alive is I think DL may be actually even in worse shape than NWA. So in musical chairs game it is quite obvious that the last two legacy carriers fighting for the last chair are DL and NWA. CAL while balance sheet wise is very week is operationally superior, AA got its labor costs in line almost 1 1/2 years ago, UAL is completely reinventing its cost structure with some fine b/k procedure manouvering and US found itself a white knight.

NWA and DL: One of them will go and will go permanently, I am afraid. Will be both interesting and sad to see which of these two will be the last man standing.
The Original Coronado: First CV jet flights RG CV 990 July 1965; DL CV 880 July 1965; Spantax CV990 Feb 1973
 
Dalmd88
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Thu Aug 04, 2005 9:08 pm

No union would ever support what NW is asking for and NW knows it. They are asking for layoffs of over half the represented workforce, and pay cuts of more than 20% for the survivors. Some are saying the total cut with benefit loses is above 40%. Nobody would support that contract. They are better off taking their chances with the strike. If they just go along with NW most loose their jobs anyways.

NW management has put themselfs in this corner where they need huge concessions from it's work force. Nearly ever fare increase in recent years has not been supported by NW. The real problem in the US industry isn't costs, its REVENUE. Our management at DL is always saying to us 'We don't have pricing power in the marketplace.' NW is a big reason for this, not LCCs that are running at 90% load factors.
 
FlyGuyClt
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Thu Aug 04, 2005 9:21 pm

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 5):
Here's my two cents...If those mechanics walk, they are unemployed and terminated with NW. That's means they will hook up with another company and start at the bottom of the scale like a rookie out of A&P school. If it were me, I would go to work at NW because what I have left after Aug 19th has to be better then the bottom of the ladder with a new company?
What's your call on this, folks?
safe

You are correct in my opinion. I am keeping my fingers crossed for a good outcome for all current NWA employees. The hardest thing for me to figure out is this? What you say is correct. The union is saying things like we will show them. I believe in the right to stand tall for what you believe. I also believe in driving down the road with the least amount of pot holes. But, as this poster has stated. The mechanics at NWA will have to start at the bottom somewhere else or not even find a job in their field of excellence. How is this showing NWA? Most of the execs have cashed out their stock, we all have seen that in print. So they have their money. We all know the executives go from board room to board room, continue with their pay, stock options and positions. Will this "show down" hurt the management? Or the every day worker. I totally agree things must change. But we are also voters in this country and need to get active to change the laws to make certain things happen. Being out of a job and letting the execs move on with money in the bank? Is that really the course to take? Please note, I do respect everyone's opinion to stand for what they believe. I just question it from time to time. After all. Charlie Brian is rumored to be a maintenance man at a golf course in MIA. And remember, Jim Jones was believed to be right. Just watch out for the purple kool aid.

Safe Flying  Smile

Hoping for a resolution for all to win.
Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
 
mtnmanmakalu
Posts: 493
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Thu Aug 04, 2005 9:52 pm

The problem is when do you take a stand as an employee and take a chance that you will be in the unemployment line?? It's a tough call because union and non-union employees watch these execs run these Airlines into the ground, collect their bonuses and cash-out their stocks, and hit the road. The poor sucker has nothing left but some pride , to try to fight for what is right to him/her. I realize that there is supposed to be some give and take, from it always seems to be much more take from the upper management!!

Quoting FlyGuyClt (Reply 24):
But we are also voters in this country and need to get active to change the laws to make certain things happen

I totally agree with you, but we can't even get 50% of the country to vote, and when they do, they don't even look at the issues- they just vote straight down party lines without even considering the consequences of their vote until it is too late!!

I hope NWA and their MX can get something worked out because if they don't, NWA will end up in bankruptcy and some judge playing "God" will impose his/her "fair" ruling which is never good for the front-line workers!!

Just my 2 cents...

mtnman
I do, I don't, whatever.......
 
commavia
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Thu Aug 04, 2005 10:00 pm

It's now quite obvious that NW is just running out the clock, just like a winning team might do in the last few seconds of a basketball game. They're just running down the clock because they're already winning. They know that they have AMFA over a barrel, and they are actively trying to get the union to strike, so they can fire all the strikers. I understand the financial justification and rationale for NW's management's actions, but I do think it is a bit unfortunate that they and the union could not come to an agreement. That being said, while I understand why management is doing this, they are playing a pretty high-stakes game. They might be in for a few more weeks of some maintenance "issues," some random "gate holds" for over-cautious ramp mechanics, etc., and then having to deal with a non-union, strike-breaking, scab mechanic workforce after 8/20 that is no doubt going to be under enormous pressure and safety threat because of this. Should be interesting!
 
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ual747den
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Thu Aug 04, 2005 10:55 pm

Oh no yall have me figured out, I HATE UNIONS! No big secret there. They have taken some of the best airlines down and have ruined the lives of many of their members that believe the BS they throw at them. There is no secret about this and I don't feel bad, the people that I feel bad for are the ones voting for the airline yet still being taken down by a greedy union that cares only for itself.
Mariner,
I don't think that pricing and the strike have anything to do with each other. While I do agree that NW is in a losing pissing match with F9 I don't really think that has anything to do with this union trying to take the airline down.
Mtnmanmakalu
I don't have anything against NW in fact I hope they come out ahead, its the union that I have something against. You must not be too informed if you somehow think that I have it in for NW, if you talk to upper management they have the same feelings as me. Now for UA being a role model, since when were they? Why would a company be anyone's role model? And you must know nothing about BK, it has been a very good way for UA to cut costs and they will come out stronger than all the competition because of it. You think that F9 is going to sue me!!!! 1) This is a little web forum, no big deal, no one really cares about what happens in here, do you think that the airlines are watching and making business decisions based on what is said by us nobodies?!?!?! 2) F9 would be very happy to know that people are posting their advertising....
Coa764,
Its kind of odd that you would take all that time to look that up when I would be happy to tell everyone that I hate unions....
Frontier Airlines - Low Fares Done Right
 
slider
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Thu Aug 04, 2005 11:20 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 8):
Perhaps - just perhaps - if NWA started scheduling and pricing rationally, they might be able to pay their staff.

I'm not fan of NW per se, but perhaps if some observers would look past such a rudimentary--and wholly inaccurate and short-sighted--appraisal of the industry such as your post Mariner, maybe there would be more rational thought in this business.

Scheduling and pricing rationally. That's rich.

Individually, almost every carrier does this. As an industry, it's wildly irrational, hence driving everyone over the cliff. Been like this for years now, where you been?
 
padcrasher
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Thu Aug 04, 2005 11:20 pm

Quoting Commavia (Reply 26):
They know that they have AMFA over a barrel, and they are actively trying to get the union to strike, so they can fire all the strikers. I

I did not know that? That you can fire strikers? I thought the Railway Labor Act determined what a company could do and not do?

As a matter of fact I thought RLA says said you cannot fire strikers, but you can hire replacement workers. Big difference, because those who strike can come back in whole or in part and bump that replacement worker back down the seniority list.
 
padcrasher
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Thu Aug 04, 2005 11:26 pm

"Carriers can lawfully replace strikers engaged in a lawful strike, but may not, however, discharge them, except for misconduct, or eliminate their jobs to retaliate against them for striking. It is not clear whether the employer can discharge workers for striking before exhausting all of the RLA's bargaining and mediation processes.

The employer must also allow strikers to replace replacements hired on a temporary basis and permanent replacements who have not completed the training required before they can become active employees. "


Setting the record straight.
 
LMP737
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Thu Aug 04, 2005 11:29 pm

Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 27):
They have taken some of the best airlines down and have ruined the lives of many of their members that believe the BS they throw at them. There is no secret about this and I don't feel bad, the people that I feel bad for are the ones voting for the airline yet still being taken down by a greedy union that cares only for itself.

What airlines might that be UAL747DEN? With all that knowledge and wisdom acquired in those twenty three years I'm sure you can enlighten the rest of us.

My experience, which is quite a bit more than yours, has been that you can trace a companies success or failure by the decisions made at the front office. Unions do not decide which routes to fly, ticket prices, whether or not to merge with another airline, where to start new routes, how quickly they should expand their operations, how many fleet types they should have, what percentage of their fuel costs should they hedge etc. It's decisions like those that have the biggest affect on an airlines bottom line. And they are made in the executive suite, not at the union hall.

You also seem to forget that they have already lost almost half of their members to layoff. Under NWA's proposal half of those that remain will lose their jobs and the other half will take a 22% paycut. Please forgive them if they are not exactly jumping at the chance to sign on for that. If NWA had left out the 50% layoff part they probably could have come to some sort of agreement. However I don't think NWA really ever wanted an agreement.

P.S. Instead of repeating it here read reply 61 on the "Northwest Hires Extra Guards" thread.

[Edited 2005-08-04 16:32:11]
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
coiahtx
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Thu Aug 04, 2005 11:36 pm

UAL747DEN-I've gotta say I have to agree with you on pretty much everything. I get so sick and tired of hearing the "older members" talk sh!t about how the "younger members" never know what were talking about. How we're so inexperienced and have all the answers. Im promoting NWA's new slogan "Out with the old and in with the new!"
 
isitsafenow
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Thu Aug 04, 2005 11:53 pm

PADCRASHER....ahhh, yeah, they can fire them. You forgot what CO did to the mechanics and pilots in the 80's. They launched them, but some crossed the picket lines and went to back to work before Frank Lorenzo pushed the launch button. This was when Lorenzo ran Texas Air and CO was a division of like EA was. If I remember right, years ago, TW fired its flight attendants.
safe
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
 
padcrasher
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Fri Aug 05, 2005 12:15 am

And after the Lorenzo/Continental dispute the bankruptcy code was amended to prevent a company from taking a company into Chapter 11 to void union contracts. The contract still stands. Only the bankruptcy judge can have it thrown out.
 
KarlB737
Topic Author
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Fri Aug 05, 2005 4:02 am

Courtesy: WCCO-TV

Who Are NWA's Replacement Mechanics? - Video Report Included

http://wcco.com/topstories/local_story_216114025.html
 
StevenUhl777
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Fri Aug 05, 2005 4:18 am

Quoting Coronado (Reply 22):
NWA and DL: One of them will go and will go permanently, I am afraid. Will be both interesting and sad to see which of these two will be the last man standing.

Go Delta!

Signed,
United Airlines
And the winner for best actress is....REESE WITHERSPOON for 'Walk the Line'!!!!!!!!
 
gipper913
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Fri Aug 05, 2005 4:20 am

Geez, guys, just because y'all disagree with UAL747DEN's anti-union stance is no reason to start calling people names. Frankly, no matter how old UAL747DEN may be nor what his other posts say nor that he may say things more stridently than others takes away from the fact that his position on the NW mechanics union and unions in general is a perfectly viable one.
The size of the federal budget is not an appropriate barometer of social conscience or charitable concern. --R. Reagan
 
gipper913
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Fri Aug 05, 2005 4:34 am

Quoting FlyGuyClt (Reply 24):
But, as this poster has stated. The mechanics at NWA will have to start at the bottom somewhere else or not even find a job in their field of excellence

FlyGuyClt, your post is reasonable and well thought out, as they so often are! Seems to me the issue with any potentially fired mx from NW having to start over at the bottom is a union rules issue. One of the manifold problems with unions (and I am not saying there aren't manifold problems with management) is that the system rewards mere length of service rather than competence. Seems to me a hard working, excellent former NW mechanic with 15 years experience who moves to another airline ought to get compensated according to his skills, work ethic and ability. Instead, he goes to the bottom of the line, while some other mx at the new airline who have similar experience will be getting paid more, even if they are lazy, letting their work slip, etc.

Quoting FlyGuyClt (Reply 24):
But we are also voters in this country and need to get active to change the laws to make certain things happen

Sorry, this is where you lose me. Having congress intervene in any airline problem (hell, just about any problem at all) is not a solution, but merely a new and worsening problem! Most dangerous sentence in America: "I am from the government and I am here to help."  redflag 
The size of the federal budget is not an appropriate barometer of social conscience or charitable concern. --R. Reagan
 
Squid
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Fri Aug 05, 2005 4:48 am

NWA-1 AMFA-0. No matter how the employee's look at this situation, they loose. And in my opinion, they lost a long time ago by dragging the unavoidable pay cuts out. I think management has had enough with these unions and wants to clean house and clear the way for profitablitiy. The stock is almost worthless, and NWA has lost a lot of money, yet these unions take NWA to court over everything a bitch in the papers about how little they make and blah blah blah. If you don't like what a company pays you, than quit and find a company that will pay you more. Airlines are commodities providing transportation to the public, and it shouldn't cost a fortune to fly. The ticket prices that the average consumer can afford on a regular basis is not going to support exorbitant wages and benifits for the front line workers any longer, and it shouldn't. The front line worker is not management.

26% paycut from $75,000 per year, not including benifits, is still a VERY GOOD LIVING. Too bad AMFA is pissing it away.
 
RAMPRAT980
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Fri Aug 05, 2005 5:28 am

Quoting Gipper913 (Reply 37):
Geez, guys, just because y'all disagree with UAL747DEN's anti-union stance is no reason to start calling people names.

Being that unions are supported by democrats they take on their tactics (ie: name calling). When will all the clintonistas be eradicated from this world.

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 31):
Under NWA's proposal half of those that remain will lose their jobs and the other half will take a 22% paycut.

all this being done while being represented. Will the union take a 22% cut in dues or raise its dues due to loss of members ?

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 9):
Do you really think that these mechanics don't realize that the company has pretty much already won, and that if they strike they'll lose their jobs? I would guess that every mechanic at NW knows that they can either quit or cave to management.

Conform or be cast out !!!

By the way who is or what is AMFA ?
With gun control there can be no democracy.. With gun control there can be no Freedom
 
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coronado
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Fri Aug 05, 2005 5:30 am

Quoting DalMD88 reply 23
''Our management at DL is always saying to us 'We don't have pricing power in the marketplace.' NW is a big reason for this, not LCCs that are running at 90% load factors.''

funny how NWA management blames DAL management for their new fare structure capping round trips fares at (initially) 499.00 and waiving the Sat night requirements.
NWA financial people claim this dramatically lowered their business class pax and I can see that --summers up here in MSP and DTW are short and I know a lot of business people who would bite the bullet and pay the very high NWA fares to get home early on Friday so they could getup to the lake on the weekend with the family. DAL pricing was the greatest gift this summer! Last year I would pay 900 RT from the west coast to get home before the weekend --and it is certainly lower this year so there I tend to believe NWA management more than DL management. Maybe the impact in ATL is not as severe as you have much longer summers than we do up here in the North Country. All I can say is the timing of DL's pricing initiative was great, wallet wise speaking
The Original Coronado: First CV jet flights RG CV 990 July 1965; DL CV 880 July 1965; Spantax CV990 Feb 1973
 
hammer
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Fri Aug 05, 2005 5:34 am

Quoting Squid (Reply 39):
26% paycut from $75,000 per year, not including benifits, is still a VERY GOOD LIVING. Too bad AMFA is pissing it away.

Good point, but what about those cleaners who don't make $75,000 they make $42,000 roughly, that's a huge deal....
 
gipper913
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Fri Aug 05, 2005 5:44 am

Quoting RAMPRAT980 (Reply 40):
By the way who is or what is AMFA ?

"Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal Organization" ...mx union for AS, NW, UA and a few others. http://www.amfanatl.org/index.html

Quoting RAMPRAT980 (Reply 40):
all this being done while being represented. Will the union take a 22% cut in dues or raise its dues due to loss of members ?

Lol lol lol.  rotfl  Very good point! Certainly they won't want those dues cut as that would mean a cut in monies they can donate to the DNC (regardless of whether union members are Democrats).

Quoting RAMPRAT980 (Reply 40):
Being that unions are supported by democrats they take on their tactics (ie: name calling). When will all the clintonistas be eradicated from this world.

Now, now, knocking name calling is not helped by name calling and calling for death! Not that eradication of them would be much of a loss....  wink 
The size of the federal budget is not an appropriate barometer of social conscience or charitable concern. --R. Reagan
 
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mariner
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Fri Aug 05, 2005 5:46 am

Quoting Slider (Reply 28):
Individually, almost every carrier does this. As an industry, it's wildly irrational, hence driving everyone over the cliff. Been like this for years now, where you been?

Exactly. Many carriers do it. And look at the state of the industry.

It's just that, with NW, it is such a blatantly obvious knee jerk.

If there is so much money to be made on FNT/RSW, why did they wait until Airtran started it?

 cheerful 
aeternum nauta
 
padcrasher
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Fri Aug 05, 2005 5:51 am

Quoting RAMPRAT980 (Reply 40):
Being that unions are supported by democrats they take on their tactics (ie: name calling). When will all the clintonistas be eradicated from this world.

Kinda of Ironic that you say name calling is a Democratic tactic. Then in the next sentence you call them "clintonistas"..LOL. Now that's GOP.
 
FlyGuyClt
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Fri Aug 05, 2005 5:51 am

Quoting Gipper913 (Reply 38):
But we are also voters in this country and need to get active to change the laws to make certain things happen

Sorry, this is where you lose me. Having congress intervene in any airline problem (hell, just about any problem at all) is not a solution, but merely a new and worsening problem! Most dangerous sentence in America: "I am from the government and I am here to help."

Meaning that much of the American Workers dreams are shot in the wallet by management of many companies getting away with raping the company. Ala, Enron, Worldcom, Ect. Laws must be enacted and criminals must be put in jail. After all. It is beginning to look like a pyramid scheme at some companies. NO, I am not saying we worker bees deserve million dollar salaries. But, some of this top skimming must come to an end !

Thank You For Your Compliment  Smile

Safe Flying  Smile
Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
 
swaluvfa
Posts: 258
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Fri Aug 05, 2005 5:56 am

To everyone who thinks that AMFA and the NWA mechanics are foolish for what they are doing, how would you feel if you were in the bottom HLAF of the mechanic seniority list and KNEW that you would be furloughed immediately?

AMFA has an obligation and a job to protect its members, and if they were to accept NWA's package, HALF of the workforce would be gone VERY quickly. So how can you blame the union and its members for standing up for their rights and what they believe in.

For both parties, its dammed if you do, dammed if you don't. August 16th we will just see what happens.

I am in FULL support of AMFA and the Northwest mechanics. I hope the best for you.

By the way, Northwest's President and CEO is about the ugliest and nastiest looking people I have seen. I'm sure he is the same way on the inside as well.
 
FlyGuyClt
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Fri Aug 05, 2005 6:07 am

Quoting SWALUVFA (Reply 47):
To everyone who thinks that AMFA and the NWA mechanics are foolish for what they are doing, how would you feel if you were in the bottom HLAF of the mechanic seniority list and KNEW that you would be furloughed immediately?

AMFA has an obligation and a job to protect its members, and if they were to accept NWA's package, HALF of the workforce would be gone VERY quickly. So how can you blame the union and its members for standing up for their rights and what they believe in.

For both parties, its dammed if you do, dammed if you don't. August 16th we will just see what happens.

I am in FULL support of AMFA and the Northwest mechanics. I hope the best for you.

By the way, Northwest's President and CEO is about the ugliest and nastiest looking people I have seen. I'm sure he is the same way on the inside as well.

Good points, but AMFA did not incorporate the same scope clauses in the last contract that the PFAA did for the flight attendants. Thus, NWA legally is able to outsource the way they have. I am not picking ANY side here. I am hopeful for a compromise with the least amount of pain for ALL NWA employees. And it is the 19th of August. Not the 16th of August is the big day. Again, lets hope all can win for the long term in this situation.

Safe Flying  Smile
Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
 
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mariner
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Fri Aug 05, 2005 6:27 am

Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 27):
I do agree that NW is in a losing pissing match with F9

It isn't about pissing matches. Why are the airlines so testosterone obsessed?

Apple could not destroy Microsoft and would go bankrupt in a heartbeat if they tried. So they don't try.

They strive to be best, not to be bigger. They cede market share to their rival (shock, horror!).

Microsoft could - perhaps - have destroyed Apple, pre-ipod, but they didn't, they went the other way, they invested in Apple.

How interesting the airline world would be if a major took the same attittude to a LCC.

Similarly, the union is not tryng to bring NWA down - why would they?

It doesn't happen in other places. Asiana isn't "brought down" by the strike, they are on the verge of a compromise. Air New Zealand isn't "brought down", nor is Air France.

A strike, I agree, may bring NWA down - but it takes two to tango. You cannot ignore what management has done to bring it to this state.

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta

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