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gipper913
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Fri Aug 05, 2005 6:36 am

Quoting SWALUVFA (Reply 47):
By the way, Northwest's President and CEO is about the ugliest and nastiest looking people I have seen. I'm sure he is the same way on the inside as well.

Putting aside the grammar errors...that is just about the most inane thing I have ever read on a.net.

Quoting FlyGuyClt (Reply 46):
Meaning that much of the American Workers dreams are shot in the wallet by management of many companies getting away with raping the company. Ala, Enron, Worldcom, Ect. Laws must be enacted and criminals must be put in jail

While I agree the top brass at many of these companies acted negligently and in many cases criminally, there are already laws on the books to deal with them (ask Bernie Ebbers!) and I would prefer to let the free market sort these companies out (see Enron) rather than going for a rash of redundant and burdensome legislation (see the many self-contradictory portions of Sarbannes-Oxley).

Quoting FlyGuyClt (Reply 46):
Thank You For Your Compliment

No thanks necessary. While I don't always agree with your conclusions, your posts are logical and reasonable. If I were top brass at your airline, I'd want to hire 100 FAs like you and pay you top dollar. But, I'd want to be able to lay off a bunch of the bad eggs to be able to afford the ones as good as you (something no union would allow).
The size of the federal budget is not an appropriate barometer of social conscience or charitable concern. --R. Reagan
 
LMP737
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Fri Aug 05, 2005 6:59 am

Quoting Squid (Reply 39):
26% paycut from $75,000 per year, not including benifits, is still a VERY GOOD LIVING. Too bad AMFA is pissing it away.

Once again you ignore the fact that there's more than just proposed paycuts. There's also the fact that NWA wants to layoff the half of those that remain. That's on top of the half that have already lost their jobs. If you were one of the half that was being shown the door what would you do?

Quoting Squid (Reply 39):
The ticket prices that the average consumer can afford on a regular basis is not going to support exorbitant wages and benefits for the front line workers any longer, and it shouldn't. The front line worker is not management.

You do realize that when you factor in inflation ticket prices have gone down since deregulation right? Air travel as a means of transportation is the best deal out there. Lets say at the end of the month you want to go to Chicago for two weeks. One can get a round trip ticket from SEA-ORD for $345. If you were to drive here's what the costs would be. The trip is 2070 miles long and would take you three days to complete. Lets say your car gets 30mpg, it would cost you $303 dollars in gas for a round trip. Then there's the cost of staying in a hotel for fours nights. To be conservative we will say $250. Of course there's the cost of meals and other misc items. Once again we will be conservative and $200. Don't forget the wear and tear on your car, $100. So total trip cost would be $853.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
LMP737
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Fri Aug 05, 2005 7:17 am

Quoting Squid (Reply 39):
The ticket prices that the average consumer can afford on a regular basis is not going to support exorbitant wages and benifits for the front line workers any longer, and it shouldn't. The front line worker is not management.

You still seem to confuse "high" wages causing companies to be in financial distress. Or "low" wages with companies being successfully. Well we can all look at companies like SWA to see the fallacy in that. Or if you want to go outside the airline industry Costco.

I've said this in other posts of mine. One can trace the success or failure of a company to the decisions made at the top. Unions/front line employees do not decide which routes to fly, ticket prices, whether or not to merge with another airline, where to start new routes, how quickly they should expand their operations, how many fleet types they should have, what percentage of their fuel costs should they hedge etc. It's decisions like those that have the biggest affect on an airlines bottom line.

Guys like Herb Kelleher and Bob Crandall deserved the money they made. Why,because they proved themselves. You seem to have this belief that just because someone is at the top they should get fat paychecks. No matter how incompaant they are. If you applied the rules you seem to have for the "front line" employee to those higher up they to would be getting ranks slashed and their pay cut. And no golden parachutes.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
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ual747den
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Fri Aug 05, 2005 8:10 am

LMP737,
You need to take another look at the relationship that unions have with airlines. They do get a say on routes and expansion. They are extremely involved in mergers and fleet types also. Just recently in the past 6 months there have been a few airlines that have had to make fleet decisions based on the union.
Frontier Airlines - Low Fares Done Right
 
LMP737
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Fri Aug 05, 2005 8:42 am

Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 53):
LMP737,
You need to take another look at the relationship that unions have with airlines. They do get a say on routes and expansion. They are extremely involved in mergers and fleet types also. Just recently in the past 6 months there have been a few airlines that have had to make fleet decisions based on the union.

What airline do you work for? The one I work for the guys up top make the ultimate decisions. When AA decided to buy TWA the union had no say whether the deral was going to take place or not. Almost all of the coworkers I spoke with when the deal was announced thought it was a bad idea. In the end AA went ahead with the deal and ended up making a billion dollar mistake. We had no say in the matter. Reno Air, AA spent around $170 million on that. Basically to buy routes they had when they purchased Air Cal. And like Air Cal AA ended up dumping most of those routes. Did we have a say in the matter, no.

The unions don't tell managemnet what planes to buy or what routes to go after. When an airline gets a new type they negotiate with the pilots over pay rates. However in the end THEY are the one who make fleet decisions. Next year AA will start flying Chicago to China. When AA decided to go after the route they asked us to write our congressman for their support. Both union and non-union. That was about as much "say" we had in the matter. If the guys in the ivory tower decided now was not the time to expand to China guess what? AA would not be expanding into China next year. Why, because in the end they make the ultimate decision.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
isitsafenow
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Fri Aug 05, 2005 8:46 am

UAL747DEN.....Responding to your post 53.....................
In the words of Home Improvements Al Boreland...
"I don't think so, Tim".
Which airlines were those?...The Grace L Fegueson Airline and Storm Door company
and Moe and Larrys Flying Service?
Did you forget NW looked at TWA in the late 90's and walked away? Do you think maybe, just maybe, unions played a part in that decision by NW?

An airline union has as much say in the companies routes as a deer gets to choice which brand bullet does him in the first day of deer season. Sorry, but I must disagree with your entire post.
safe
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
 
swaluvfa
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Fri Aug 05, 2005 9:00 am

Gipper913-

Sorry my bad.....

Northwest's President and CEO is about the most ugly and nasty person I have ever seen. I am sure he is the same way on the inside too.

Is that better grammar for you?  Smile

Name ONE thing he has done GOOD for Northwest since he started?
 
RAMPRAT980
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Fri Aug 05, 2005 9:11 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 49):
Why are the airlines so testosterone obsessed?

Would you agree the unions, at one time, were full of it too ?

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 52):
One can trace the success or failure of a company to the decisions made at the top. Unions/front line employees do not decide which routes to fly, ticket prices, whether or not to merge with another airline, where to start new routes, how quickly they should expand their operations, how many fleet types they should have, what percentage of their fuel costs should they hedge etc. It's decisions like those that have the biggest affect on an airlines bottom line.

Exactly, that why the execs get paid the big bucks. This reminds me of a story I heard once about the stock market crash in the early 1900's. There was this wall street exec getting his shoes shined by a shoeshine boy on Broadway, in NYC. The shoeshine boy started to give him stock tips. Right after he finished having his shoes shined he went to his office and sold every piece of stock he had. He figured if a shoeshine boy was giving out stock tips then it was time to get out. Shortly thereafter the market crashed. Let the execs run the company as they see fit. Being an armchair CEO will get one nothing more than aggravation.
With gun control there can be no democracy.. With gun control there can be no Freedom
 
isitsafenow
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Fri Aug 05, 2005 9:24 am

HEY NW EMPLOYEES....What if Doug Steenland took off his mask....and it was really Frank Lorenzo!!!!!
 devil 
safe
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
 
Dokken10
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Fri Aug 05, 2005 9:56 am

Does anyone remember back in the early 90s when NWA said they were going to file BK? The employees gave consessions and were promised when things turned around they would be compensated. After all groups signed the bottom line upper management got big bonuses. Things turned around and NWA did nothing. The consession contracts ran out and NWA dragged there feet for years during contract talks. Pilots had to sue for a 3% snap back that was clearly written in their consession contract. Pilots had to strike in 98 for a so-so raise. 4 years for the mechanics to get a new contract. The consession contracts for most groups from the early 90s had an ESOP that NWA has refused to pay up on since the matured. Lost in court recently to pay the employees what was promised and still is fight that ruling. I believe that NWA is going to file BK no matter what so why take pay cuts now when the judge is going to again. The judge in UAL BK case has shown other companies how easy it is to rid themselves of the retire promises.
 
Dokken10
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Fri Aug 05, 2005 10:04 am

How much money has the new paint on NWA's aircraft generated compared to the cost of painting them? Have you seen how much money NWA is giving Pinnacle? How much money is being funneled to Wings Holding (I think that is the name of the Cheeci & Wilson company)? I saw a list of NWA's assets which included land in Tokyo that they bought when things were good. Have they sold any of these assets?
 
Dokken10
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Fri Aug 05, 2005 10:11 am

How many companies have gone out of business because of bad or greedy management? How many companies have gone out of business because of the employees(unions)? If anyone says that Eastern went belly up because of the employees(unions) you need to pull your head out of the sand!!
 
commavia
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Fri Aug 05, 2005 10:25 am

Quoting Dokken10 (Reply 59):
Does anyone remember back in the early 90s when NWA said they were going to file BK? The employees gave consessions and were promised when things turned around they would be compensated. After all groups signed the bottom line upper management got big bonuses. Things turned around and NWA did nothing.

I don't think that will happen this time. If NW management says now that they are going to file, I think they will follow through, if for no other reason than now they have to. Their "recovery plan" is predicated on lower labor costs that they expected to realize through consensual labor savings that their unions are now refusing to accept. Thus, the only now for NW to deliver on those savings is to file, get rid of the strikers (which I believe is their ultimate goal) and replace the AMFA-represented workers with a mix of temporary scabs and ultimately mostly contracted-out maintenance and overhaul. In addition to all this, NW has been planning and plotting a strike and/or ensuing bankruptcy for months now, maybe years -- they are probably in the process right now of lining up DIP financing and getting their financial ducks in a row to try and speed through the bankruptcy process as quickly as possible.

Quoting Dokken10 (Reply 61):
If anyone says that Eastern went belly up because of the employees(unions) you need to pull your head out of the sand!!

Eastern did go out of business because of their unions, but also because of their management. IMO, that was a two-part deal, with both the union leadership and the management having very big roles to play. Were EA unions solely responsible for the company's demise? Of course not. Did they have a big role to play? I think they definitely did.
 
midex461
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Fri Aug 05, 2005 3:33 pm

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 52):
If you applied the rules you seem to have for the "front line" employee to those higher up they to would be getting ranks slashed and their pay cut. And no golden parachutes.

...and your problem with that would be what, exactly? Quite frankly, I think the higher ups should take the same pay cuts that the front line employees are. I also don't think they should be getting golden parachutes - although I've seen some get platinum parachutes - case in point DL's Ron Allen.

And before anybody says anything, I work for HP, and am TWU as well.
Opinions and views expressed are MINE and do NOT represent the views of US Airways
 
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ual747den
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Fri Aug 05, 2005 3:57 pm

Yes EA did go out of business because of the union! That is not hard to see. Of course there were mistakes made by management also but if not for the strike EA would have most likely pulled through.

Now I have a few questions for everyone:
1) If NW can contract out MX at a much cheaper rate why not?
2) If NW were your company would you rather pay more money and keep all positions in house, or pay less and contract it out?
3) Do you own stock in NW?
4) If not and you did would you have different thoughts on this matter?

I am very interested to see the answers to these questions. Most on here think that airlines are supposed to be this great happy family and fail to realize that it is a business. It is not about the love of airliners or the industry its about making money. The CEO is required to find the best way to make the most money and that is it. He should not care about the employees on a personal level his responsibility is to the share holder, and the share holder cares about one thing and that is the bottom line. One very good example of this is at AA when Crandall was running the airline, when things were not looking good they were considering dumping the airline and sticking to just Apollo. At one point it was making more than the airline and things were not looking up, that never happened but it was discussed.
Another thing that people do not realize about out sourcing is that it is cheaper for a company is many many different ways. Not only do you not have to pay the employees working you also have a lot more options with them. Some examples are you can require the work force to double for the busy season then reduce itself by half the next day. If someone is not doing the job expected you don't have to go through a process to get rid of them. You simply make a call and within a few minutes they are removed from the project. Its cheaper, easier, and better all around for a company, it may not be right to get rid of all the current employees but as a share holder or CEO you have to look at the bottom line and make decisions based on that, not emotion. This is why I think that NW MX are so stupid. They know all of this already and the airline is giving them a chance to keep their jobs and the airline will even pay out more to keep them than what they would have to if they were contracted out but the MX still will not take the deal! Why would the company offer any more?? They wont, the MX take it and have a job or don't and lose a job, upto them I guess!
Frontier Airlines - Low Fares Done Right
 
MidnightMike
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Fri Aug 05, 2005 4:22 pm

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 52):
I've said this in other posts of mine. One can trace the success or failure of a company to the decisions made at the top. Unions/front line employees do not decide which routes to fly, ticket prices, whether or not to merge with another airline, where to start new routes, how quickly they should expand their operations, how many fleet types they should have, what percentage of their fuel costs should they hedge etc. It's decisions like those that have the biggest affect on an airlines bottom line.

Unions influence company decisions, even aircraft choices. Just look at the recent Air Canada decision to cancel a major aircraft with order with Boeing because the pilot union could not agree on wages.

You take the demise of any airline & the problems can be traced from both management choices & problems with the unions....
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Dokken10
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Fri Aug 05, 2005 6:32 pm

Lorenzo was a corporate raider and wanted to part out Eastern. He was banned from the airline industry and tried to start another airline sometime in the 90s and was told by the US government that he was unfit!! Any employees,union officers or unions banned from the airline industry?
 
Dokken10
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Fri Aug 05, 2005 6:41 pm

Back in 2001 NWA mechanics were on their way to a strike and George Bush stopped it with a PEB. He stated that the airline industry was too important to the economy. Now he has stated that he won't stop this possible strike with a PEB. I guess the airlines are not important to the economy these days. That's right, he likes outsourcing to foreign countries, because he's more worried about their economy than he is the US economy.
 
MidnightMike
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Fri Aug 05, 2005 6:53 pm

Quoting Dokken10 (Reply 67):
Back in 2001 NWA mechanics were on their way to a strike and George Bush stopped it with a PEB. He stated that the airline industry was too important to the economy. Now he has stated that he won't stop this possible strike with a PEB. I guess the airlines are not important to the economy these days. That's right, he likes outsourcing to foreign countries, because he's more worried about their economy than he is the US economy.

Outsourcing is in every major country, UK, Germany, France, Japan, just to name a few. Even though we are getting off topic, outsourcing has been going on for quite some time, it started to get really hot & heavy in the USA with the signing of NAFTA.

As for the involvement with President Bush and Northwest back in 2001, totally different enviornment than exist today.....
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Dalmd88
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Fri Aug 05, 2005 11:33 pm

Outsourcing is every CEO's magic bullet right now. They all think if they outsource every possible function to a lower bidder they will be sucessful. There are many pitfalls with this line of thinking. Quality issues are one. Loss of control of your operation is another. The true cost of the contract sometimes doesn't reveal its' self until it is too late.

Outsourcing all of your maintenace to an MRO might look good on paper until you find out years later those low payed mechanics didn't take care of all of the corrosion. The high turnover rate of those cheap MRO's means your airplanes are consistently late out of checks and you spend another week or two fixing problems. You find your remaining employees are very worried about their jobs.

If you take care of your workforce they can do wonders for your company. This used to be the way at DL, and I think SW still goes by this. When DL was on top we were one of the highest paid in every catagory and had some of the lowest outsourcing. SW is currently the highest paid in many jobs, and is bringing more work inhouse.
 
Falcon84
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Fri Aug 05, 2005 11:52 pm

Quoting Pope (Reply 4):
Ask the Eastern mechanics how well their strategy worked.

Amen! That sums it up in a nutshell. If they don't want to work, I'm sure others would be glad to.

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 9):
Whether you agree with their action or not, give them credit for having the courage to decide that it isn't worth their dignity to cave, for being willing to walk away from their job.

Yeah, and not be able to pay the bills; go on food stamps, maybe welfare. Yeah, real courageous and dignified. Not.

Quoting Yanqui67 (Reply 10):
God help help them if they do go to work. They will have very miserable futures.

Right. They're working, and the former mechanics are in the unemployment line. I'd rather be the scab, dude, not the schmuck sitting waiting for food stamps.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 17):
Frontier has less than 50 aircraft. How could they represent any kind of threat to NWA at MSP?

Mariner, airlines just don't relinquish market share, in any market. They HAVE to match the fare that F9 is putting out, simply to save their market share, and hope that someday, sanity ends up in that market. If NW simly withdraws, it's competitors will see a weakness there, and go after other markets. CO is going to face the same thing in EWR with B6, but CO has no choice but to be competitive fare-wise, or lose markets. You don't let someone just strip a market from you. That's dumb business.

Quoting RAMPRAT980 (Reply 40):
Being that unions are supported by democrats they take on their tactics (ie: name calling). When will all the clintonistas be eradicated from this world.

ROTFL. Finding a way to bash Democrats and Clinton in a thread about NW and it's mechanics? That's pretty sad, Ramprat. Pretty lame, and pretty typical of head-nodding Republicans.  Big grin

Come on Non-Av, so I can rip your beliefs to shred there.  Silly
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
RAMPRAT980
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Sat Aug 06, 2005 1:01 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 70):
ROTFL. Finding a way to bash Democrats and Clinton in a thread about NW and it's mechanics? That's pretty sad, Ramprat. Pretty lame, and pretty typical of head-nodding Republicans.

I'm just saying that Dem's & unions are in bed together. CAL ramp agents had a vote for representation. They used a phone in procedure. First of all the voting process went on for approx 21 days. Way, way too long. One week to ten days seems long enough to me, even to accommodate those on vacation. Secondly why is the system set up so that if you call the number its an automatic yes vote. Why not call the number to cast your vote. Yes or no. This way there is no confusion. If you vote no then the call ends if you vote yes then you get to select who you want for representation. Thirdly, not to mention what i have seen in break-rooms with those wanting representation embarrassing those who openly stated they didn't want representaion. And I have seen a few co-workers then vote because they had to save face. They have a lengthy voting process to increase the odds of getting more people simply to vote yes. And I do believe that more than a few votes were cast out of embarrasment/pressure and those who did so i really feel sorry for.

I was wrong in singling out the clintonistas when I really meant the democratistas. Don't forget the one thing a democratic hates more than anything is an educated voter. They seem to thrive more on chaos/confussion and rumors/fears. Actually, Its quite obvious.
And you are correct this isn't the correct thread for this particular discussion. I felt the need to reply to someone's name calling.
With gun control there can be no democracy.. With gun control there can be no Freedom
 
Falcon84
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Sat Aug 06, 2005 1:15 am

Quoting RAMPRAT980 (Reply 71):
I'm just saying that Dem's & unions are in bed together.

And big business and the GOP aren't? What was your point, except to score a cheap political punch?
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
RAMPRAT980
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Sat Aug 06, 2005 1:27 am

No need for you to be so confrontational. Why is it cheap when one speaks the truth. Its Valuable/priceless knowledge. Hopefully, one day, its knowledge you too will aquire. GOD SAVE AMERICA !!!
With gun control there can be no democracy.. With gun control there can be no Freedom
 
commavia
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Sat Aug 06, 2005 1:42 am

Quoting DALMD88 (Reply 69):
Outsourcing all of your maintenace to an MRO might look good on paper until you find out years later those low payed mechanics didn't take care of all of the corrosion. The high turnover rate of those cheap MRO's means your airplanes are consistently late out of checks and you spend another week or two fixing problems.

Well, that is going to be the interesting thing to watch going forward over the next four years -- what impact will MRO outsourcing have on the industry and the airlines' operations. While outsourcing MRO work is all "the rage" right now, it still remains to be seen if it actually benefits the bottom line because, as you said, while the upfront savings are apparent, if safety, security and reliability become issues, those incremental costs add up pretty quick.

IMO, it is possible for an airline to completely outsource MRO and still run an effective, profitable operation. We need look no further than WN for an example of this -- in its entire existence, WN has never once performed an overhaul. It has always outsourced this work and has done fine because, as Herb Kelleher said, WN reps are always on the floor at the vendor's sight to inspect the work and make sure the workers there are well trained and know they are being watched.

A few years from now, when UA, US, NW and DL will all have outsourced just about all of their MRO work, it should be interesting to contrast their operational and MRO performance with that of AA, which thus far has shown virtually no interesting in outsourcing M&E and has actually been insourcing more and more work since 9/11.
 
Mikey711MN
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Sat Aug 06, 2005 3:01 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 70):
Mariner, airlines just don't relinquish market share, in any market. They HAVE to match the fare that F9 is putting out, simply to save their market share, and hope that someday, sanity ends up in that market.

Sanity according to whom though? If Airline A can make a profit on an average fare for a given route they've entered while the existing Airline B can not on that same fare, what's insane about that? Airline A, by virtue of their lower cost structure (read: ability to make money in a lower revenue environment), is providing the "sanity" in the market. It is insane for Airline B to operate on the route if it is unprofitable.

To bring this on-topic, it is NW management's view that it must adjust its costs to compete on these markets where sanity is established. "Sanity" in a market, in my opinion, is not defined by what a single carrier provides and whether it can make money, it's when x number of carriers enter the market, the price stabilizes accordingly, and each airline then assesses whether it can compete. It becomes their fudiciary responsibility to make adjustments when they can not.

-Mike
I plan on living forever. So far, so good...
 
Braniff727
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Sat Aug 06, 2005 3:07 am

Quoting Dokken10 (Reply 60):
How much money has the new paint on NWA's aircraft generated compared to the cost of painting them?

Where have you been? The aircraft are being painted at the time when they would have to be repainted anyway, that is after heavy maintenance. The new paint is simpler and faster to paint (saves money) and will last 20% longer that the previous paint (saves money).

In answer to your questions, the new paint has generated more money than the old paint scheme.
Climbing
 
gipper913
Posts: 172
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Sat Aug 06, 2005 5:47 am

Quoting SWALUVFA (Reply 56):
Is that better grammar for you?

Name ONE thing he has done GOOD for Northwest since he started?

Grammar is better, but my point on inanity was not that he has been a great CEO, far from it...just that basing your opinion of him on his looks is inane. If you have genuine gripes with the guy's job performance, voice them....calling him ugly isn't exactly an overwhelmingly useful insight.

That's all.
The size of the federal budget is not an appropriate barometer of social conscience or charitable concern. --R. Reagan
 
LMP737
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RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Sat Aug 06, 2005 7:11 am

Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 64):
Yes EA did go out of business because of the union! That is not hard to see. Of course there were mistakes made by management also but if not for the strike EA would have most likely pulled through.

Eastern Airlines, why did I think you were going to say that? I like the part where you almost off handedly mention "mistakes" made by manangement. Why don't we go over some of those "mistakes". Or more importantly how Frank Lorenzo ran his company. I don't think it's a coincidence that every airline that he ever ran is either no longer around or had to be saved from the brink of liquidation by people like Gordon Bethune.

1)Using the scorched earth style of management.
2)Having Eastern "pay" a Texas Air brokerage firm a penny for every gallon of fuel it bought. That cost adds up very quickly for an airline. Along with "paying" Texas air a $6 million a year management fee.
3)Taking aircraft from Eastern and giving them to Continental. Which in turn sold them.
4)Lorenzo buying gates from Eastern at EWR for $1 million each. Gates that were worth $2 million.
5)Lack of communication within his organization. As one of his employees pointed out he would only tell someone just enough. He was the only one who had the whole story. I will tell there is no greater poison for a company than a lack of communication. It's a breeding ground for uncertainty and distrust.

I could go on but I think I made my point. Why is it that other airlines, with union represented employees, were able to flourish at the same time Eastern was struggling? Were their unions less "militant"? Hard to say that since you could find the IAM and ALPA at other carriers as well.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
LMP737
Posts: 6042
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 4:06 pm

RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Sat Aug 06, 2005 7:49 am

Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 64):
This is why I think that NW MX are so stupid. They know all of this already and the airline is giving them a chance to keep their jobs and the airline will even pay out more to keep them than what they would have to if they were contracted out but the MX still will not take the deal! Why would the company offer any more?? They wont, the MX take it and have a job or don't and lose a job, upto them I guess!

Well then I guess you shouldn't fly on NWA. Are you aware of some of the details in this whole issue of NWA/AMFA? Or are you just ignoring them. Are you aware that half of the AMT's at NWA have already been laid off. What NWA wants to do is layoff half of those that remain. And you are talking about NWA trying to save their jobs? What an odd way to do so. You did know of this little fact right? If not then I question when you say you know "exactly" what you are talking about.

As I have already pointed out if it were just pay and benefit concessions that were on the able I think an agreement would already have been meet. However with NWA's stance on layoffs I don't think they are really interested in a deal. After all do they think that half that remain would be enthusiastic to sign on for their own layoff?

UAL747DEN:
P.S. Have you read reply 61 on the "Northwest Hires Extra guards" thread? Curious as to your thoughts,
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
Dokken10
Posts: 286
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2005 10:19 pm

RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Sat Aug 06, 2005 8:46 am

Quoting Braniff727 (Reply 76):
Where have you been? The aircraft are being painted at the time when they would have to be repainted anyway, that is after heavy maintenance. The new paint is simpler and faster to paint (saves money) and will last 20% longer that the previous paint (saves money).

In answer to your questions, the new paint has generated more money than the old paint scheme.

Where have you been???? I was a mechanic(Heavy checks)for NWA until I was laid off in 2003. NWA does not repaint their planes when they are in for heavy checks. All of the planes we would just touch up the paint!! Cowling, radomes etc. would be repainted (sometimes)in a booth in the shops. Airlines do not totally repaint their airplanes just because they are in for a heavy check or any check!!!! If they buy a used plane they will paint it then. Even IF they were to repaint the entire plane they would not strip it down to bare metal. They just rough up the paint,alodine bare metal,prime and paint. So NWA has added another layer of paint which adds a lot more weight than you think and has reduced the fuel economy even more. Touching up the paint compared to prepping the old paint,masking the plane and adding new paint and more weight is cost effective???? You should do a lot more research before you ask me were I have been.
 
RAMPRAT980
Posts: 584
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2005 1:06 am

RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Sun Aug 07, 2005 2:05 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 70):
Come on Non-Av, so I can rip your beliefs to shred there.

You can rip farts if you like for all I care. My beliefs, can never be changed.  praise 
With gun control there can be no democracy.. With gun control there can be no Freedom
 
uadc8contrail
Posts: 1661
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 1:23 am

RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Sun Aug 07, 2005 2:20 pm

conspiracy theory..........ual has held off presenting the "plan"another month till they see what is going on at the red tail....if doug gets his way...how hard would it be for tilton to walk into judge genes courtroom of comedy and say...we need another 176 mln from the mechs(fuel prices)......of couse amfa will balk and ual could say..hey we tied..get rid of them...think about it...
Bus Driver
 
777Purser
Posts: 215
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 4:47 pm

RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Sun Aug 07, 2005 2:27 pm

AGAIN this is why it is so important to fight tooth and nail to keep wages and workrules...as close to the collective agreements as possible. NW management is playing real dirty. UGH! I almost like my CEO now...
 
777Purser
Posts: 215
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 4:47 pm

RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Sun Aug 07, 2005 2:29 pm

AGAIN this is why it is so important to fight tooth and nail to keep wages and workrules...as close to the collective agreements as possible. NW management is playing real dirty. UGH! I almost like my CEO now...
 
DCrawley
Posts: 328
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 3:18 am

RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Sun Aug 07, 2005 5:45 pm

Good for the mechanics to at least try and take initiative. They know this puts their job at risk, but they've know this to be coming for a long time and hopefully are prepared for the worst. I hope the unions come out alright. More importantly to me, I hope the people who are training to be scabs are prepared for what will happen. Good luck to those b.. people..

Some replies to some of the things that hurt my brain while reading down the posts..

Quoting COIAHTX (Reply 32):
UAL747DEN-I've gotta say I have to agree with you on pretty much everything. I get so sick and tired of hearing the "older members" talk sh!t about how the "younger members" never know what were talking about. How we're so inexperienced and have all the answers. Im promoting NWA's new slogan "Out with the old and in with the new!"

LoL.. and this exact post is helping out their cause, watch what ya type my friend! I'll tell ya, being a "younger member", or however you would like to say it, doesn't mean that "we" don't know what we're talking about. The problem is that so many people don't know what they are talking about and generally, people whom have been involved in the airline industry for years have watched it grow and develop through its trials and tribulations to get to the current moment in time. Yet, many "younger members" think that just because they have read a book or seen a movie about something that's airline-related, they know all there is to know. Experience is everything in the airline industry, from decision making to senority!

Quoting RAMPRAT980 (Reply 40):
Being that unions are supported by democrats they take on their tactics (ie: name calling). When will all the clintonistas be eradicated from this world.

In my honest and educated opinion, that has got to be one of the dumbest things I have ever read. Whether democratic or republican, you just made the human race look bad..

Quoting RAMPRAT980 (Reply 40):
Conform or be cast out !!!

So if the government required all men to get a sex-change, you would do it? Conform or be cast out buddy..

Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 64):
He should not care about the employees on a personal level his responsibility is to the share holder, and the share holder cares about one thing and that is the bottom line.

God, I'm really sorry to say this UAL747DEN as I believe in everyone's right on this board to share and voice their opinion, but this is bullsh.t. If you don't care about the employee's, it will show in how they treat your customer. I've got a theory that you must work for Walmart.. lol

Quoting RAMPRAT980 (Reply 71):
Don't forget the one thing a democratic hates more than anything is an educated voter. They seem to thrive more on chaos/confussion and rumors/fears. Actually, Its quite obvious.

Yes.. a democrat hates educated voters.. God, right when I thought the worst of the worst was over in your post. Let me take your post and break it down and show you how ass-backwards it is. You say democrats thrive more on chaos/confussion. Yet, isn't it the bush administrations (yes, I left it in lower-case on purpose) whom decided it a good idea to start a war? Then you say rumors/fear. Show me the WMD's. Sure seems like a rumor to strike fear into the heart of the average American.

Please, enough already!

Quoting RAMPRAT980 (Reply 73):
Why is it cheap when one speaks the truth.

LoL.. good lord..
"Weather at our destination is 50 degrees with some broken clouds, but they'll try to have them fixed before we arrive."
 
Braniff727
Posts: 656
Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2000 2:25 am

RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Sun Aug 07, 2005 9:58 pm

Quoting Dokken10 (Reply 80):
I was a mechanic(Heavy checks)for NWA until I was laid off in 2003.

I'm sorry to hear you were furloughed.

All the same, I find it hard to believe that not one single NWA aircraft gets stripped of paint during a D check. While I am not a mechanic, or expert in that area, I just find that a little hard to swallow. Sorry.
Climbing
 
Dokken10
Posts: 286
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2005 10:19 pm

RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Mon Aug 08, 2005 12:33 am

Quoting Braniff727 (Reply 86):
I'm sorry to hear you were furloughed.

All the same, I find it hard to believe that not one single NWA aircraft gets stripped of paint during a D check. While I am not a mechanic, or expert in that area, I just find that a little hard to swallow. Sorry.

I have no reason to BS you. For example when doing a belly skin replacement you should have seen the layers of paint that we had to grind or have stripped, to find the rivet heads. We would roll the paint on the new belly skins. We would add a rolling additive to the paint and it worked very well. Just start a thread in Tech ops about this and see what other mechanics tell you. It is very expensive to strip a plane down to bare metal. You would be amazed how much it cost to dispose of hazardous materials, stripper,waste paint,alodine,rags,MEK,etc. Also the EPA makes it very hard to do a complete strip and re-paint and very expensive with all the rules. Also there is a service bulletin or AD on scrapping sealant away on the skin laps,skin joints,patches etc. from people using metallic scrapers and gouging the skin cause a stress point(future crack). When stripping a plane you have to remove the old sealant and re-seal it all. Again, sealant and man-hours to do this expensive. Like I said before most airlines will strip a plane down to bare metal before it enters service when they buy it used.
 
Dokken10
Posts: 286
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2005 10:19 pm

RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Mon Aug 08, 2005 1:16 am

Quoting Braniff727 (Reply 86):
I'm sorry to hear you were furloughed.

At 1st it was a little hard being there for 6 years. I did find there are great places to work without the BS involved with NWA. Money is not everything!! I swear the whole 6 years I was there was stressful due to the NWA management. There were only 4 months of peace at NWA and that was when we got a contract 5/12/01 until 9/11/01. I keep in touch with a lot of the mechanics that have been laid-off from NWA and a lot of them will not go back(if it ever happens) to NWA even if the pay and bennies stay the same as they are now. Not 1 will go back if they take pay cuts. This includes myself.
 
777Purser
Posts: 215
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 4:47 pm

RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Mon Aug 08, 2005 1:36 am

Hey DCrawley..

Well said but...why waste your time replying to people who obviously don't know what they are talking about as they don't seem to be part of the airline industry or members of a union?
I am amazed to read that there was someone here tat actually said that Democrats hate an educated voter. How strange. I thought it was the other way around.
 
isitsafenow
Posts: 3413
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2004 9:22 am

RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Mon Aug 08, 2005 2:10 am

777PURSER....It is the other way around, but in reality its both. There are not a lot of Ivy League school grads that are democrats.. The Ivy League school grads are the ones that "run" Amercia.
safe
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
 
RAMPRAT980
Posts: 584
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2005 1:06 am

RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Mon Aug 08, 2005 3:52 am

Quoting DCrawley (Reply 85):
In my honest and educated opinion, that has got to be one of the dumbest things I have ever read. Whether democratic or republican, you just made the human race look bad..



Quoting DCrawley (Reply 85):
So if the government required all men to get a sex-change, you would do it? Conform or be cast out buddy..

Again why do many have to be so confrontational and try to make others think they are dumb because one doesn't agree with anothers point of view. Its my opinion that a democrat is a truely a socialist/communist. Its always what they're saying, we can do this and that for you. "We know you better than you do". And I don't agree with that philosophy. I'm not saying live and let live and let anarchy reign. Thats why we have laws to protect society as a whole. I hate it when politicians feel that they have to protect us from ourselves. As an individual, registered member of the conservative party, I believe in womens right to choose, gay marriage. I could care less about such social issues. Again my beliefs and I won't point my finger in your face if I don't agree with something you have said. Respect my opinion as I have yours.
With gun control there can be no democracy.. With gun control there can be no Freedom
 
northwestair
Posts: 515
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2001 11:25 am

RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Mon Aug 08, 2005 11:47 am

Quoting Uadc8contrail (Reply 82):
conspiracy theory..........ual has held off presenting the "plan"another month till they see what is going on at the red tail....if doug gets his way...how hard would it be for tilton to walk into judge genes courtroom of comedy and say...we need another 176 mln from the mechs(fuel prices)......of couse amfa will balk and ual could say..hey we tied..get rid of them...think about it...

It's funny how each airline will look to each other to see what they will get away with and then try it themsleves. When UA did away with the Pensions that is when NW said we need to do the same thing. UA gets paycuts NW wants Paycuts. Like I said before when UA and US went to BK it was a big blow to the other Airline Employees because what happened to the employees of UA and US in BK is going to be the exact same for us.
I don't care who you fly just as long as you fly
 
DCrawley
Posts: 328
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 3:18 am

RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Mon Aug 08, 2005 2:56 pm

Quoting 777Purser (Reply 89):
Hey DCrawley..

Well said but...why waste your time replying to people who obviously don't know what they are talking about as they don't seem to be part of the airline industry or members of a union?
I am amazed to read that there was someone here tat actually said that Democrats hate an educated voter. How strange. I thought it was the other way around.

Thanks for the complement about my post being well said 777Purser  Wink . I see your point in all aspects. I was taking a break from reading up on some new checklist changes and decided to come here to read some news and posts, and well.. the rest is kinda history. Sometimes, it's hard to read things that I disagree with and not speak up. Someone's gotta represent my view! LoL..

Quoting RAMPRAT980 (Reply 91):
Again why do many have to be so confrontational and try to make others think they are dumb because one doesn't agree with anothers point of view. Its my opinion that a democrat is a truely a socialist/communist. Its always what they're saying, we can do this and that for you. "We know you better than you do". And I don't agree with that philosophy. I'm not saying live and let live and let anarchy reign. Thats why we have laws to protect society as a whole. I hate it when politicians feel that they have to protect us from ourselves. As an individual, registered member of the conservative party, I believe in womens right to choose, gay marriage. I could care less about such social issues. Again my beliefs and I won't point my finger in your face if I don't agree with something you have said. Respect my opinion as I have yours.

I'm sorry if you interpreted my post as trying to make you think you are dumb, as that was not its intended purpose. Just as you says it's your opinion, I agreed with your right to posting your opinion in my post..

Quoting DCrawley (Reply 85):
I believe in everyone's right on this board to share and voice their opinion

As with what I said, I also believe it is my right (as long as operating within the rules and regulations of the forum) to voice my opinion on what's said. In reality, I don't have to respect anyone's opinion. I put up with a lot of them instead. I don't ask anyone here to respect my opinion. If you don't like what I think, that's your deal. Sorry! Instead of thinking as what I responded with as confrontational, ever consider it as an alternate point of view?

Quoting RAMPRAT980 (Reply 40):

Being that unions are supported by democrats they take on their tactics (ie: name calling). When will all the clintonistas be eradicated from this world.

I hope this statement is suppose to have some unheard sarcasm.. it's your opinion, but I don't agree with what you said at all.

Quoting DCrawley (Reply 85):
In my honest and educated opinion, that has got to be one of the dumbest things I have ever read. Whether democratic or republican, you just made the human race look bad..

Once again, I said it's my opinion. Sorry for the line about making the human race look bad. I'll officially retract that statement and change it to "I disagree".

Quoting DCrawley (Reply 85):
Quoting RAMPRAT980 (Reply 71):
Don't forget the one thing a democratic hates more than anything is an educated voter. They seem to thrive more on chaos/confussion and rumors/fears. Actually, Its quite obvious.

See, I gave you an alternate view on this subject. I really didn't agree with this statement. I thought it was very poorly written and doesn't have any factual backing. Provide me with some facts and I'll read and analyze your post! Here's my other view, maybe a lil harsh:

Quoting DCrawley (Reply 85):
Yes.. a democrat hates educated voters.. God, right when I thought the worst of the worst was over in your post. Let me take your post and break it down and show you how ass-backwards it is. You say democrats thrive more on chaos/confussion. Yet, isn't it the bush administrations (yes, I left it in lower-case on purpose) whom decided it a good idea to start a war? Then you say rumors/fear. Show me the WMD's. Sure seems like a rumor to strike fear into the heart of the average American.

My point is not trying to point a finger in your face. I am pointing out my views though. I do agree in reading it over, I wasn't too nice. I could have put my statement much more professionally than I did. I'm not asking you to like it because my views are formed from my personal experiences and years on this Earth. Everyone's are different to one extent or the other, from small things to extremes. That's life.

-d
"Weather at our destination is 50 degrees with some broken clouds, but they'll try to have them fixed before we arrive."
 
Derik737
Posts: 264
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 5:53 am

RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Mon Aug 08, 2005 8:44 pm

Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 94):
What you don't seem to understand is it is the job of mid level management to keep the employees happy and motivated, its the job of the CEO and executive level to keep the shareholders (Owners of the company) happy.

Really? Our CEO seems to work on doing both. It's an industry secret, but there is a very successful airline to the south where the upper management, especially the top guy, is in good spirits with their employees as well. And dare I say that the majority of those employee's are union employees? Shh, please don't tell anyone!

In fact, having upper management in touch with employees seems to be the key factor in a successful business. Now, UAL747DEN, I am sure you are going to tell me I'm full of it; but I'm not talking about successful business as on that is determined by profits alone. A successful company in my opinion is one that not only generates profits, but also provides fair wages, decent benefits, reasonable work rules and a good retirement plan.
 
DCrawley
Posts: 328
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 3:18 am

RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Mon Aug 08, 2005 11:20 pm

Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 94):
Give me a break, you obviously know nothing about the corporate world! This is a very common thing to hear from low level employees.

LoL.. yes, I know nothing and are a low level employee.. idiot. I just sold a successful business I created and ran for 3 years. I'm now a pilot. I sure as hell found out that I didn't want a desk job in your "corporate world".

Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 94):
What you don't seem to understand is it is the job of mid level management to keep the employees happy and motivated, its the job of the CEO and executive level to keep the shareholders (Owners of the company) happy.

Wow, the first thing you said I can partially agree on. Yet, when you have a unmotivating CEO or some a-hole, the power of the people can really shift how things are going at a company.

Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 94):
As for your Wal-mart comment, now I know for a fact that you are completely uneducated in the world of business and finance. I would love to work for Wal-mart.

You know? How do you know this? God, all of your current comments have been ignorance at its finest. You didn't see the irony in my post? You must be the uneducated one. Wal-mart is the death of most local town stores and I sure as hell don't want to be a manager hiring the old people to meet and greet and know that they don't have sh.t for benefits.

Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 94):
My current position puts me in the corporate offices of large business' all around America.

Congratulations, want a cookie?

Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 94):
I would give it all up for a nice position in the Wal-mart offices. You are probably unaware that Wal-mart is one of the most powerful and wealthy companies in all the world.

Wow, you seem to know me quite well. At this point, label me a completely uneducated idiot. LoL.. of course I know that they are one of the most powerful and wealthy companies in the world. All the Walton kids got real rich off this.

Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 94):
You must never plan on working in any management position. Don't you ever want to make something of you life?

Ignorant. Just because you aren't working management means you aren't making something of your life? BS! People need to do what makes them happy. I sure as hell am glad I am out of being the CEO, CFO, and manager of my company. Being in charge of hiring and firing, dealing with employee issues, scheduling, etc. really gets old fast. That's why I decided to start flying again. Plus, I made a healthy profit selling my business so I could afford to live on a regional pilots salary.

UAL747DEN, don't be so quick to judge. I'm a big investor and business man who finds the world of aviation my true calling in life. If you care to try and tell me what I know and do not know, feel free. But, a word of advice, if you want to play with fire, you're likely to get burnt  Wink .
"Weather at our destination is 50 degrees with some broken clouds, but they'll try to have them fixed before we arrive."
 
LMP737
Posts: 6042
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 4:06 pm

RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Tue Aug 09, 2005 1:27 am

Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 94):
would love to work for Wal-mart. My current position puts me in the corporate offices of large business' all around America. I would give it all up for a nice position in the Wal-mart offices.

In another post on another thread you said "My families blood runs very deep in the executive offices of most major airlines here in America and where I am today is where most people would like to end their carrier". Sounds to me like you happy where you are at, why would you want to leave?

Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 94):
Im not part of the airline industry?? I hope non of my clients find out that I have been lying to them all this time! Just because I don't work for an airline directly does not mean that I am not in the industry. My family has been part of the airline industry since there was an industry. I am very proud of the fact that I am the third generation to have an office at UAL Corp.

Now what exactly do you do in the airline industry? On the "Northwest Hires Extra Guards" thread you sated that you had you name on the door at three different airlines. Along with UAL what are the other two?
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
RAMPRAT980
Posts: 584
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2005 1:06 am

RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Tue Aug 09, 2005 2:36 am

Found this site while surfing the web. Thought it may be of interest.

http://news.monstersandcritics.com/b...est_insiders_dumping_company_stock
With gun control there can be no democracy.. With gun control there can be no Freedom
 
777Purser
Posts: 215
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 4:47 pm

RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Tue Aug 09, 2005 3:27 am

There is so much anger comming from self proclaimed successful UAL747DEN. I wonder how well he really does. I enjoy my job as a F/A, gives me a lot of time off that I use to travel around Latin Ameica getting to know more about Latin American Contemporary Art. I collect art and we plan to organize exhibitions in the States with some of the artists. This month I am just flying 9 days and then I am going to Buenos Aires for a full month. I have many friends in the industry that are happy and being very productive with their lives. We are all Union members.

I happen to believe that Unions help maintain balance in the industry. We are being very successful at improving company morale by working together with management. We are trying to stay profitable and still be able to keep pensions. We have given up a lot, it has been difficult. Management has shown good intentions, very different from what I have perceived from NW management. A happy workforce is more productive. My best wishes for the NWA people defending their wages anf work rules. Some people in this room need to go to their own room.. label it something like Self important American workers haters, or something like that.

Peace
 
commavia
Posts: 11489
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: Mechanics Union: Talks With NWA Are Off

Tue Aug 09, 2005 4:42 am

Quoting 777Purser (Reply 99):
I happen to believe that Unions help maintain balance in the industry.

No question about it. Competition is at the heart of not only free market capitalism, but also human nature. When you have the interests of the company (stockholders) in constant competition with the interests of unions (employees), a balance naturally forms. In this industry, unions are not only inevitable, but they are necessary -- somebody has to look out for the interests of workers. Conversely, management is there for one job and one job only -- to deliver financial results for their shareholders. While these two ends are seemingly fighting for the same goal, I believe they can coexist and live in peace and form somewhat of a symbiotic relationship -- management gives unions the respect they want (through perks, a seat at the table, full disclosure, etc.), creating a happier and more productive workforce, and in turn pleasing customers, who return again and again, and thus produce superior financial results for shareholders. It's one big cycle and it always starts with employees.

Quoting 777Purser (Reply 99):
We are being very successful at improving company morale by working together with management. We are trying to stay profitable and still be able to keep pensions. We have given up a lot, it has been difficult. Management has shown good intentions, very different from what I have perceived from NW management.

You work for AA, I presume, being based at MIA? Assuming you do -- I completely agree with your assessment. AA may -- it isn't for sure yet, but it has the potential -- show the way forward for the rest of the legacies and perhaps the industry in how management and labor can not only coexist but be mutually beneficial for each other ... what a novel concept that would be!

Quoting 777Purser (Reply 99):
A happy workforce is more productive.

Absolutely. Happy workers -- who feel valued and respected -- will always give 1000% for their employer, and in turn make customers feel just as happy, thus securing long-term business for the company and delivering for shareholders.

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