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backfire
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AF A340 Landed Halfway Down Runway - Investigators

Mon Aug 08, 2005 4:25 am

Canadian IIC says that FDR data shows the A340 touched down 4,000ft from threshold, nearly halfway down runway 24L, although it landed at 148kts (just above normal speed).

He says he's "not surprised" it careered off the end given the wet conditions.

Draw your own conclusions.
 
captaingomes
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RE: AF A340 Landed Halfway Down Runway - Investigators

Mon Aug 08, 2005 4:55 am

wonder why doors and slides didnt deploy properly

The thread starter indicated the aircraft touched down approximately 4,000' from the threshold. Let's keep this thread relatively on topic.

Backfire, do you have a link? If this is the case, it will be interesting to find out what caused the long touchdown to happen. Was it a simple pilot misjudgement? Was there a microburst just as the aircraft was about to touch down? Did the co-pilot initiate a go-around then change his mind as was suggested before? In time we will get more answers, but it surely isn't a huge mystery how they ran out of runway.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
Lee
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RE: AF A340 Landed Halfway Down Runway - Investigators

Mon Aug 08, 2005 5:07 am

i was thinking earlier....

Has an aircraft ever been in a similar situation, where the pilots knew they couldn't stop so then opened the throttle and took off again ?
 
backfire
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RE: AF A340 Landed Halfway Down Runway - Investigators

Mon Aug 08, 2005 5:09 am

Quoting Captaingomes (Reply 2):
Backfire, do you have a link?

I'm afraid I don't - I was participating in the Canadian TSB briefing on the accident, so there's no further information. But this is straight from the chief investigator.

As for the doors, the situation is this: Doors L3 and L4 were not opened because the FAs thought risk of fire too great. Door L2 popped open in the accident as the aircraft hit the ravine. Door R3 was opened but shut again after slide didn't deploy and the FAs saw sharp obstacles below.
 
backfire
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RE: AF A340 Landed Halfway Down Runway - Investigators

Mon Aug 08, 2005 5:11 am

Quoting Captaingomes (Reply 2):
Was there a microburst just as the aircraft was about to touch down?

Airspeed at touchdown was 148kts, only just above normal, because of tailwind. Long touchdown still unexplained.
 
FlySSC
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RE: AF A340 Landed Halfway Down Runway - Investigators

Mon Aug 08, 2005 5:32 am

A new important and interesting question is now raised by the investigators :

Everybody agree to say that the decision to land or not belongs to the Crew but the real question is : what were exactly the parameters given to the Crew and the real weather report they based their decision on :

Apparently, the wind speed indicator located next to the threshold of the runway was found broken by the investigators, hit by a lightning before the A340 landed. In that case, what was the real speed AND direction of the wind on the Rwy, compared to the figures given to the Crew ?
Was a "Brake coefficient" given to the Crew ? what was it ? was it accurate with real condition on the Rwy ?
Was the Rwy inspected by the Airport Maintenance before it was reopened to check exactly how much water was on the Rwy ?

At CDG, When a Rwy is closed for any reason, an inspection is compulsory before it is reopened to traffic. Is there the same procedure at YYZ ?

The 4 reverse were deployed, and the traces found on the last part of the Rwy show that the pilot applied full brake. In that case, why did the A340 left the Rwy at the speed of 145 Km/h with apparently a quite strong tail wind ?
 
captaingomes
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RE: AF A340 Landed Halfway Down Runway - Investigators

Mon Aug 08, 2005 5:32 am

Backfire, thanks!

Lee, I'm sure there have been plenty of incidents where pilots have touched down, something was wrong, and they took off again. I know of one example and that was a Jetsgo MD-83 in YYC during the winter. The aircraft touched down, possibly to one side of centreline, and started slipping on the icy runway surface. The pilots initiated a go-around after initial contact with the runway. They ended up veering off the runway, and travelling approximately 1,800' on the grass (actually snow) before lifting off again, circling and doing a safe landing. Definitely a scary situation but nobody got injured in that one.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
jtamu97
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RE: AF A340 Landed Halfway Down Runway - Investigators

Mon Aug 08, 2005 5:36 am

Quoting Lee (Reply 3):
Has an aircraft ever been in a similar situation, where the pilots knew they couldn't stop so then opened the throttle and took off again ?

I don't know, but it seems like you may be at the point of no return if you are half way down the runway. I guess it would be a difficult decision to decide to stop and risk the possibility of overunning and a minimum speed, possibly like Air France, or give it full throttle, risk the chance of not getting off or not gain altitude and slam into something at a very high speed. I would hate to be in that situation. Whatever the case may be all these people were very very lucky.

Later,
J
Propeller, we don't need no stinkin propeller
 
Cruiser
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RE: AF A340 Landed Halfway Down Runway - Investigators

Mon Aug 08, 2005 5:42 am

The strangest thing to me is that it landed at 148kts (roughly 275km/h), and at the end of the runway, it was still doing 150km/h. The plane should have surely reduced its speed more than that in 5500' of runway, especially as the investigators have found no evidence of aquaplaning.

One only has to wonder if more power was applied, or whether the plane somehow trying to do a go-around.


Cruiser...awaiting the final investigation report.
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ikramerica
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RE: AF A340 Landed Halfway Down Runway - Investigators

Mon Aug 08, 2005 5:50 am

Quoting Lee (Reply 3):
Has an aircraft ever been in a similar situation, where the pilots knew they couldn't stop so then opened the throttle and took off again ?

I was on an AA flight into LGA in the winter and we did just that. We didn't quite touch down, but we were landing long, and were about to touch at about 1/2 way, and the pilot throttled up and we took off steeply for a go around.

Pilot explained it wasn't too uncommon in winter at LGA to abort, and that he'd rather go around again than end in the river.

Landed fine a second time without incident.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
KC135R
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RE: AF A340 Landed Halfway Down Runway - Investigators

Mon Aug 08, 2005 5:56 am

Quoting Cruiser (Reply 9):
One only has to wonder if more power was applied

Yeah, but in the pictures the TR's were still open. That would indicate they were trying to stop - not go around.


View Large View Medium
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Photo © Paul Cardin – SPIR



Unless you mean they landed, then - for some reason - tried to go around, then aborted the go around, and finally tried to stop again - but that doesn't seem likely.
 
Cruiser
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RE: AF A340 Landed Halfway Down Runway - Investigators

Mon Aug 08, 2005 6:01 am

Quoting KC135R (Reply 11):
Unless you mean they landed, then - for some reason - tried to go around, then aborted the go around, and finally tried to stop again - but that doesn't seem likely.

I am not going to speculate, but this to me is how I am thinking that it might have happened.

By what has been stated in the papers, it sounds as though this might be a likely scenario, but as I say, I do not want to speculate.
Leahy on Per Seat Costs: "Have you seen the B-2 fly-by at almost US$1bn a copy? It has only 2 seats!"
 
aircanl1011
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RE: AF A340 Landed Halfway Down Runway - Investigators

Mon Aug 08, 2005 6:07 am

This was an ILS landing. The visibility was reduced and the sky was extremely dark at that time. Why would he land long unless something unexpected had happened during the approach. The Glideslope would guide him to the beginning of the runway, so what caused him to remain air-bourne until that late on the runway.
CYMRU AM BYTH / WALES FOREVER
 
FlySSC
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RE: AF A340 Landed Halfway Down Runway - Investigators

Mon Aug 08, 2005 6:13 am

Cruiser,

The investigators clearly said that the Crew NEVER tried a Go-around.
 
KC135R
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RE: AF A340 Landed Halfway Down Runway - Investigators

Mon Aug 08, 2005 6:15 am

Quoting AIRCANL1011 (Reply 13):
The Glideslope would guide him to the beginning of the runway, so what caused him to remain air-bourne until that late on the runway.

Not following the glide slope perhaps?

Quoting Cruiser (Reply 12):
By what has been stated in the papers, it sounds as though this might be a likely scenario

If so, that would certainly point to pilot error as the cause - perhaps brought on by weather, but pilot error nonetheless - don't you think? I guess we will have to wait and see.

Has anyone seen/heard anything about what the pilot or co-pilot (since he was flying) said to investigators so far?

[Edited 2005-08-07 23:16:18]
 
captaingomes
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RE: AF A340 Landed Halfway Down Runway - Investigators

Mon Aug 08, 2005 6:16 am

FlySSC, the investigators initially also said that the aircraft landed on the proper touchdown area of the runway, and now they say otherwise. I understand that there might have been an increase of speed at some point, and this could either be wrong, or it could be a strong wind change, or an initiated go-around, or perhaps another explanation.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
SATL382G
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RE: AF A340 Landed Halfway Down Runway - Investigators

Mon Aug 08, 2005 6:21 am

Quoting Backfire (Reply 4):
I'm afraid I don't - I was participating in the Canadian TSB briefing on the accident, so there's no further information.

Participant as in actually participating in the briefing? Or participating as in watching a broad/web cast or sitting in the audience?

Sorry, not trying to bash you. I think it odd that a participant in such a briefing would be posting here, unless you're press of course.
"There’s nothing quite as exhilarating as being shot at and missed" --Winston Churchill
 
eddieho
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RE: AF A340 Landed Halfway Down Runway - Investigators

Mon Aug 08, 2005 6:29 am

I can tell you what I witnessed BEFORE the landing

As the plane was approaching the runway, you could hear the throttle being pushed up and turned down to get more power. It kept going even a few seconds away from the actual runway. Im not sure if it was flown manually but it did sound like it.

From the point we touched the ground to the point we overshot the runway it all sounded very normal - including the reverse thrusters and all. However, I'd say it was around 10-11 seconds of smooth riding on the ground before all hell broke loose.
 
eddieho
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RE: AF A340 Landed Halfway Down Runway - Investigators

Mon Aug 08, 2005 6:30 am

Oh btw... just wanna to add that 10-11 seconds on the runway before impact does translate to very little runway distance on the ground.

And I've also been to one of these press conferences - it's open to everyone.
 
backfire
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RE: AF A340 Landed Halfway Down Runway - Investigators

Mon Aug 08, 2005 6:36 am

Quoting SATL382G (Reply 17):
Sorry, not trying to bash you. I think it odd that a participant in such a briefing would be posting here, unless you're press of course.

No problem - I was participating as aviation press.
 
FlySSC
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RE: AF A340 Landed Halfway Down Runway - Investigators

Mon Aug 08, 2005 6:36 am

Eddieho,

In such weather conditions, the plane was indeed flown manually that´s why you could hear during the approach the engines thrust beeing push up and down to adjust the speed despite the wind, which is nothing but normal in that configuration.
 
burnsie28
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RE: AF A340 Landed Halfway Down Runway - Investigators

Mon Aug 08, 2005 6:43 am

I would think that in those conditions it would be an autopilot landing, or does the 340 not have that?
 
backfire
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RE: AF A340 Landed Halfway Down Runway - Investigators

Mon Aug 08, 2005 6:46 am

Quoting Eddieho (Reply 19):
Oh btw... just wanna to add that 10-11 seconds on the runway before impact does translate to very little runway distance on the ground.

I suspect it was probably longer than 10-11 seconds - even at 140kts, the remaining 5,000ft of runway would have taken around 20-25 seconds to cover. And that doesn't take deceleration into account.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: AF A340 Landed Halfway Down Runway - Investigators

Mon Aug 08, 2005 6:52 am

Quoting Lee (Reply 3):
Has an aircraft ever been in a similar situation, where the pilots knew they couldn't stop so then opened the throttle and took off again ?

Yes. But it's a dicey situation to be in.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Finkenwerder
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RE: AF A340 Landed Halfway Down Runway - Investigators

Mon Aug 08, 2005 7:06 am

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 21):
Eddieho,

In such weather conditions, the plane was indeed flown manually that�s why you could hear during the approach the engines thrust beeing push up and down to adjust the speed despite the wind, which is nothing but normal in that configuration.

The Aircraft was almost certainly being flown completely by the Autopilot, especially if the weather was poor. The Autopilot flys an ILS coupled approach down to CAT III with Auto flare and rollout capability.

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 22):
I would think that in those conditions it would be an autopilot landing, or does the 340 not have that?

See above.

Guys I'm seriously wondering whether it's worth my while reading this tripe let alone correcting it.
 
ACgSpotman
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RE: AF A340 Landed Halfway Down Runway - Investigators

Mon Aug 08, 2005 7:26 am

Quoting Finkenwerder (Reply 25):
The Aircraft was almost certainly being flown completely by the Autopilot, especially if the weather was poor. The Autopilot flys an ILS coupled approach down to CAT III with Auto flare and rollout capability.

Wasn't it already established that the copilot was conducting a manual landing? I'm pretty sure it was. I dont know if anyone has watched many A330/340 landings, but from my vantage point I see daily ops from AC's A330 and A340, not to mention AF's 340's and Olympic's aswell, but they all seem very sussesptable to ground effect before all 4 wheels of the main trucks actually contact pavement. Just my opinion.
Keeping the nation on the move...One delay at a time.
 
Cruiser
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RE: AF A340 Landed Halfway Down Runway - Investigators

Mon Aug 08, 2005 7:27 am

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 14):
Cruiser,

The investigators clearly said that the Crew NEVER tried a Go-around

I know that I haven't read that in the press anywhere. All I have seen is from this article where it says that they might have:

Quote:

If the Air France crew even momentarily began a go-round by advancing the throttles after landing, it would have cancelled out the preprogrammed automatic braking that pilots usually dial into the Airbus's sophisticated flight management computers before landing.

And if the go-round decision itself was then reversed or countermanded by the Air France captain, the flight crew would then be faced with braking manually using the foot pedals.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...story/LAC.20050806.PLANE06/TPStory

Cruiser
Leahy on Per Seat Costs: "Have you seen the B-2 fly-by at almost US$1bn a copy? It has only 2 seats!"
 
legacy135
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RE: AF A340 Landed Halfway Down Runway - Investigators

Mon Aug 08, 2005 7:48 am

Quoting FLYSSC (Reply 6):
Apparently, the wind speed indicator located next to the threshold of the runway was found broken by the investigators, hit by a lightning before the A340 landed. In that case, what was the real speed AND direction of the wind on the Rwy, compared to the figures given to the Crew ?

The wind indication given to the crew, normally coming together with the landing clearance like for example "AF123 cleared to land rwy03, wind 010/15" is an information only. The wind may change always again and then the crew needs as well to do somewhat.
As they say now, the jet landed quite long. A wrong wind indication may lead to a missjudgement of the situation by the crew. This is still no argument to justify a long landing. The crew is trained for and has the necessary experience to see that this landing is going to be long. The question is never "is it enough...." the question is much more "are we within the touchdown zone?" If the answer to this is negative, there is only one answer: GO AROUND.
I absolutely do accept that the crew was coming under pressure as the weather was real bad and they did already one approach. They have been tired as well after the transatlantic flight. It is likely that they had bad visibility due to strong rain and together with strong tailwinds they got fooled about the distance they passed over the runway. All I want to say, that the airport can't be blamed if they got a wrong or no information about the wind.
The information about braking action is normally not given on water for the simple reason that it can't be measured. It can be measured in snow, on ice but not in a thunderstorm. They can give you the information like "runway wet" or standing water or what ever. The decision will be made by the crew.
We are coming here to a point we can't stick with every single action we take to a book. To make this quick evaluation if this water on the runway is acceptable or not, if the wind indication is wrong or acceptable, how to solve it and finally handling it, this is also a question of experience by the crew. This is a reason why normally only the most experienced pilots of a company are flying the big long range planes. As I understood, both AF pilots here involved have been very experienced as well. We will see soon who's fault it was finally that it came to an overrun. What I know yet, is that the cabin crew did an excellent job, evacuating everybody safely and having only half the exits available.
 
DiscoPete
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RE: AF A340 Landed Halfway Down Runway - Investigators

Mon Aug 08, 2005 9:09 am

The approach On the 24 rwys is an ILS/DME. Does that mean no g/s? http://public.freeworld-airways.net/splendor/charts/CAP4/CYYZ-IAP.pdf
I understand that carrying a few extra kts on final in potential wind shear/ micro burst environment is common.
There is also a temporary Environment Canada weather research trailer near the threshold of the 24 runways. I wonder if it has any pertinent data?
Also they were landing on 24L. They rarely land on that newest of rwys and I wonder as others have why it was in use at the time of the mishap and not the much longer rwy 23 or slightly longer 24R ?
All questions that will hopefully be answered in due time.

[Edited 2005-08-08 02:11:39]
 
SWISSER
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RE: AF A340 Landed Halfway Down Runway - Investigators

Mon Aug 08, 2005 9:35 am

I'am still confused about the condition the spoilers are in...

I've heard an A340 pilot confirming that the Spoilers extend when the reversers are deployed and they retract when you either set the lever up or give normal thrust again...Or maybe the failure of the hydraulic systems retracted them or the crew did it...

I hope a good report from the pro's will reveal it all, I'am highly interested in this very strange incident!
What time is top of descent?
 
MissedApproach
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RE: AF A340 Landed Halfway Down Runway - Investigators

Mon Aug 08, 2005 10:18 am

Quoting ACgSpotman (Reply 26):
they all seem very sussesptable to ground effect

Interesting observation. That's why in marginal weather most (well, probably all) company manuals recommend a "firm" touchdown- you can use up a lot of runway in the ground effect trying for a soft landing.
Aside from the Airbus site, folks can also check www.a340.net to learn more about the A340. There are some fantastic flight deck videos, as well as descriptions of the autothrottle & hydraulic systems.
Can you hear me now?
 
Meerkat
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RE: AF A340 Landed Halfway Down Runway - Investigators

Mon Aug 08, 2005 10:42 am

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 21):
In such weather conditions, the plane was indeed flown manually that´s why you could hear during the approach the engines thrust beeing push up and down to adjust the speed despite the wind, which is nothing but normal in that configuration.

The engines will adjust power if they're flown on automatic as well! That's kind of the whole point. The sounds appeared much more variable as the autothrottle or pilot would be struggling in what were very gusting winds.

Indeed even if the pilot was flying manually, as has been stated in this incident, it is still normal on the A330/340 to leave the autothrottles controlling the engines. A normal flight even with a manual landing would usually involve moving the autothrottle setting fom FLEX/TOGA to CL at about 1500ft AGL after takeoff, and leaving them there until a few feet above the touchdown at which point a "RETARD, RETARD" alarm will sound to tell the pilot to move the throttle to IDLE. This is different from Boeing pilots, who are (generally/always?) taught "autopilot ON, autothrottles ON - autopilot OFF, autothrottles OFF".
 
MrChips
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RE: AF A340 Landed Halfway Down Runway - Investiga

Mon Aug 08, 2005 10:52 am

Quoting Cruiser (Reply 9):
The strangest thing to me is that it landed at 148kts (roughly 275km/h), and at the end of the runway, it was still doing 150km/h. The plane should have surely reduced its speed more than that in 5500' of runway, especially as the investigators have found no evidence of aquaplaning

Even on a good day, I think you would be hard pressed to stop an A340 in 5500' of runway with nothing short of maximum braking and thrust reverse. If the runway is even the slightest bit wet, distances increase considerably.

Quoting Finkenwerder (Reply 25):
The Aircraft was almost certainly being flown completely by the Autopilot, especially if the weather was poor. The Autopilot flys an ILS coupled approach down to CAT III with Auto flare and rollout capability.

It is entirely possible that the autopilot cannot fly the aircraft adequately in the extreme weather conditions found in or near a thunderstorm, and therefore, the crew would be hand-flying the aircraft, either by their own choice or from company SOPs.

Quoting DiscoPete (Reply 29):
The approach On the 24 rwys is an ILS/DME. Does that mean no g/s?

No. There is a glideslope - that's what ILS implies - glideslope and a localizer. If there was no glideslope, it would be called a LOC approach. The DME only provides distance and removes the need for a physical final approach fix (as in some sort of ground based navigation aid like an NDB or a marker beacon).

[Edited 2005-08-08 03:58:29]
Time...to un-pimp...ze auto!
 
Max Q
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RE: AF A340 Landed Halfway Down Runway - Investigators

Mon Aug 08, 2005 11:55 am

The autothrottles and autopilot can be operated independently of each other on every Boeing I have flown.

They certainly do not HAVE to both be on simultaneously, except in certain situations.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
md80fanatic
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RE: AF A340 Landed Halfway Down Runway - Investigators

Mon Aug 08, 2005 12:03 pm

So the investigators say the A340 departed the concrete at 150kts? I'm sorry but that is totally proposterous, almost laughable.  banghead 
 
Olympus69
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RE: AF A340 Landed Halfway Down Runway - Investigators

Mon Aug 08, 2005 12:05 pm

Quoting Legacy135 (Reply 28):
The information about braking action is normally not given on water for the simple reason that it can't be measured. It can be measured in snow, on ice but not in a thunderstorm. They can give you the information like "runway wet" or standing water or what ever.

They can however, pass along reports of braking action given by other aircraft that have just landed on that runway. In fact I heard the tower say "Braking action reported as poor" at around that time, But I don't know which plane the controller was talking to.
Other information I heard the tower controller passing out (some of it to an Air Canada plane that was waiting to take off) included a report that a thunderstorm cell located at the west side of the airport was almost stationary, and that a microcell had been reported from the Brampton area (a few miles NW of YYZ). Apparently this was a ground based report.
At my location just to the east of the airport it started raining very heavily just before AF358 flew past.
 
MrChips
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RE: AF A340 Landed Halfway Down Runway - Investigators

Mon Aug 08, 2005 12:27 pm

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 35):
So the investigators say the A340 departed the concrete at 150kts?

No, it was 150 km/h, not knots. It works out to about 80 knots or so.
Time...to un-pimp...ze auto!
 
B707Stu
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RE: AF A340 Landed Halfway Down Runway - Investigators

Mon Aug 08, 2005 12:35 pm

Quoting AIRCANL1011 (Reply 13):
This was an ILS landing. The visibility was reduced and the sky was extremely dark at that time. Why would he land long unless something unexpected had happened during the approach. The Glideslope would guide him to the beginning of the runway, so what caused him to remain air-bourne until that late on the runway.

That's what I've been wondering....

Quoting Eddieho (Reply 19):
Oh btw... just wanna to add that 10-11 seconds on the runway before impact does translate to very little runway distance on the ground.

Eddie confirms to me that he landed long and that he just didn't have enough runway. I know he landed about 148Kt but I understood he was doing 60-80 when he went off the runway, indicating he was slowing down but ran out of room.
 
Meerkat
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RE: AF A340 Landed Halfway Down Runway - Investigators

Mon Aug 08, 2005 12:43 pm

As a matter of interest, where did the 148kt IAS figure come from? Was it derived from the ground radar with wind taken into consideration, the FDR or the pilots?
 
Derik737
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RE: AF A340 Landed Halfway Down Runway - Investigators

Mon Aug 08, 2005 1:16 pm

Quoting Finkenwerder (Reply 25):
The Aircraft was almost certainly being flown completely by the Autopilot, especially if the weather was poor. The Autopilot flys an ILS coupled approach down to CAT III with Auto flare and rollout capability.

I believe 24L is not CAT II or III qualified (which doesn't mean they can't do an autoland in visual conditions, just not in CAT II/III conditions). Also, autopilots typically have a lower maximum crosswind component capability than the pilots who usually can land the aircraft up to the aircraft's certified maximum demonstrated crosswind component.
 
airplane
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RE: AF A340 Landed Halfway Down Runway - Investigators

Mon Aug 08, 2005 1:23 pm

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 35):
So the investigators say the A340 departed the concrete at 150kts? I'm sorry but that is totally proposterous, almost laughable

I know man,
you can rotate at that speed
Gotta love seeing the world from above
 
HaveBlue
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RE: AF A340 Landed Halfway Down Runway - Investigators

Mon Aug 08, 2005 2:03 pm

Airplane, try reading all the post bro...

Quoting MrChips (Reply 37):
Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 35):
So the investigators say the A340 departed the concrete at 150kts?

No, it was 150 km/h, not knots. It works out to about 80 knots or so.
 
captaingomes
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RE: AF A340 Landed Halfway Down Runway - Investigators

Mon Aug 08, 2005 2:04 pm

I know man,
you can rotate at that speed


No, once again, 150 km/h, which is about 80 Knots
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
fixplanes2
Posts: 20
Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2004 5:37 am

RE: AF A340 Landed Halfway Down Runway - Investigators

Mon Aug 08, 2005 3:48 pm

It's kind of simple. If the aircraft's onboard weather radar shows red, orange, or yellow colors ahead.....don't fly into that area.
 
CX Flyboy
Posts: 6145
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 1999 6:10 pm

RE: AF A340 Landed Halfway Down Runway - Investigators

Mon Aug 08, 2005 4:55 pm

Meercat,

Not entirely correct. It depends which Boeing you are talking about. On the 777, autothrottles are normally used even for landing....even for a manual landing. If we want to land with manual thrust, this is also an option. I think you are thinking specifically of the -400 guys, who disconnect both the autothrottles and autopilot for a normal landing.
 
stealthpilot
Posts: 502
Joined: Tue May 11, 2004 4:28 am

RE: AF A340 Landed Halfway Down Runway - Investigators

Mon Aug 08, 2005 9:18 pm

Quoting Fixplanes2 (Reply 44):
It's kind of simple. If the aircraft's onboard weather radar shows red, orange, or yellow colors ahead.....don't fly into that area.

Let's not be too hasty and jump to blame the pilots. It might turn out to be human error, it might not. It would be nice if life were simple enough to follow plain rules like that, but some companies push their crew directly and indirectly to get planes up and on time.
I do not necessarily disagree with your statement, but you must understand that sadly things aren�t as simple as that. It would be nice � but its not.

-Nikhil
eP007
 
Finkenwerder
Posts: 120
Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2005 4:54 am

RE: AF A340 Landed Halfway Down Runway - Investigators

Tue Aug 09, 2005 12:03 am

Quoting Derik737 (Reply 40):
I believe 24L is not CAT II or III qualified (which doesn't mean they can't do an autoland in visual conditions, just not in CAT II/III conditions). Also, autopilots typically have a lower maximum crosswind component capability than the pilots who usually can land the aircraft up to the aircraft's certified maximum demonstrated crosswind component.

This is true, I didn't specify the runway and was only providing the A/P capabilities.

The point seems almost moot now, if the aircraft landed midfield as the most recent reports state, it's anyones guess how it got there.
 
Stoney
Posts: 199
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 2:37 am

RE: AF A340 Landed Halfway Down Runway - Investigators

Tue Aug 09, 2005 12:28 am

Quoting MrChips (Reply 33):
Even on a good day, I think you would be hard pressed to stop an A340 in 5500' of runway with nothing short of maximum braking and thrust reverse.

When I flew with AF in summer one could do a quiz about AF on the IFE and one question was how much runway a A340 needs to land. I think the correct answer was 4500'. Could I be remembering correctly?
BAZL - Bundesamt gegen Zivilluftfahrt - royally screwing around with swiss aviation
 
ikramerica
Posts: 15084
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: AF A340 Landed Halfway Down Runway - Investigators

Tue Aug 09, 2005 12:39 am

Quoting HaveBlue (Reply 42):
Airplane, try reading all the post bro...



Quoting Captaingomes (Reply 43):
No, once again, 150 km/h, which is about 80 Knots

In your haste to be right/critical, you both missed his point.

If it HAD been 150kts, why go off the runway? You could take off at that speed! That's what Airplane is clearly saying here.

His point was that the 150kts at the end of the runway was an error. You guys jump on him like he didn't know that, and corrected him for something he already knew. Lighten up and read more closely...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
SLCSkyCaptain
Posts: 26
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 2:38 am

RE: AF A340 Landed Halfway Down Runway - Investiga

Tue Aug 09, 2005 12:56 am

Something isn't making sense here... Some of the facts just don't add up... I understand that using half the runway would cause for a scary situation, but in no way would that AND an 80 knot speed be experienced at the oppisite threshold. Most aircraft stop well before half way point on runways anyway! There is another factor coming in to play here somewhere. The equation doesn't seem complete without another factor. So, what we can count on I suppose is a greater understanding of what went on between the CVR and FDR. I will not be suprised when it boils down to pilot error, as it does 90% of the time with major accidents like this. All in all, I hold this event as nothing short of a miracle. It is amazing everyone lived. God firstly gets the credit on that one, then the crew for their efforts.

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