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FlyGuyClt
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NWA Pilots File Grievance Over Champion Flying.

Thu Aug 11, 2005 9:27 pm

Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
 
juventus
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RE: NWA Pilots File Grievance Over Champion Flying.

Thu Aug 11, 2005 11:17 pm

I DO NOT understand why NW's management did that, it was a stupid manuever. What were they trying to do, besides piss-off the pilots? What the F**** were they thinking?
 
Braniff727
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RE: NWA Pilots File Grievance Over Champion Flying.

Thu Aug 11, 2005 11:48 pm

Quoting Juventus (Reply 1):
What the F**** were they thinking?

My guess is not p*ss off the people that pay to travel on NW. Do you honestly believe that the passengers who were stranded in cities give a rats rear about the plight of the employees of NW or any other airline for that matter?

I have been stranded by UAL twice and late on every flight, none of those instances because of labor problems. I will no longer fly UAL. If this happens on a large scale, a la 48 aircraft out of service yesterday, then NW made the right choice.

Happy labor is great, but happy labor and no customers does no one any good.
Climbing
 
FlyGuyClt
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RE: NWA Pilots File Grievance Over Champion Flying.

Thu Aug 11, 2005 11:57 pm

Just my little opinion.

- The Mechanics and NWA are going back to the table on Monday.

- The Mechanics have shown their mission by "48" jets out of service.

- The NWA side has sent a loud and clear message. "We are prepared for you."

- Everyone else. Caught in the middle.

- I'll say this. Is what NWA is asking of AMFA any less than UAL or USAirways? Because to be quite blunt. If NWA goes into Chapter 11. They must have lower cost than any airline in Chapter 11 to get the exit financing needed to get out of Chapter 11. MEANING. Your pay will be lower than UAL or USAirways if you go Chapter 11. PERIOD.

- I am not choosing sides. Just telling it how it is. Because I have been there done that. My tail has been painted 4 times. Enough already !

Safe Flying  Smile
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Cubsrule
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RE: NWA Pilots File Grievance Over Champion Flying.

Fri Aug 12, 2005 12:02 am

The pilots are getting paid. There's no need for them to file a grievance. I wish I got paid to not do anything.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
supa7E7
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RE: NWA Pilots File Grievance Over Champion Flying.

Fri Aug 12, 2005 12:05 am

NW management is sooooooooo clever.

ALPA could not have flown those flights, since the ac were out of service.

Therefore, ALPA benefitted from this temporary "cute" trick. They should thank mgmt for playing hardball with the mechanics and running a solid airline. Both of those will benefit the pilots in the long run.
"Who's to say spaceships aren't fine art?" - Phil Lesh
 
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ual747den
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RE: NWA Pilots File Grievance Over Champion Flying.

Fri Aug 12, 2005 12:15 am

I don't understand why the pilots are having a fit about this. They are (from everything I have herd) with the airline in the MX strike matter. They have done their part and they expect the other unions to do theirs to keep the airline alive. Champion is filling in on routes that would have otherwise not been serviced therefore keeping the customers stranded or costing the airline to rebook them. I don't think that this will stop NW from using Champion and wouldn't be surprised if this just wasn't a legality that they needed to do to cover themselves.
Frontier Airlines - Low Fares Done Right
 
commavia
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RE: NWA Pilots File Grievance Over Champion Flying.

Fri Aug 12, 2005 12:37 am

Quoting FlyGuyClt (Reply 3):
- The Mechanics have shown their mission by "48" jets out of service.

- The NWA side has sent a loud and clear message. "We are prepared for you."

I agree with you completely (if I understand correctly what you are saying).

Both NW and the AMFA have pretty much already made it clear what their intentions are, and both sides have antagonized the other so much in recent weeks and months that I think they both want this strike -- management more than the union, though. IMO, NW management wants this strike -- they want to erode the power and influence of the union by flying through the strike and showing the striking mechanics that they don't need all of them.

Just my $.02.
 
burnsie28
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RE: NWA Pilots File Grievance Over Champion Flying.

Fri Aug 12, 2005 1:01 am

The reason that they Union did this, the Union was told and only knew about the DTW-DFW flight being operated by Champion. However, come to find out, several other flights took place that the union and pilots were not informed. Talking to my father yesterday that was the case. He was beginning to wonder why yesterday their were quite a few Champion planes at NW gates when the union and pilots were told only one flight was being operated with Champion.
 
skibum9
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RE: NWA Pilots File Grievance Over Champion Flying

Fri Aug 12, 2005 1:27 am

This is going to get real ugly with the pilots for both NW and DL eventually. If you look at the payscales, as published on www.airlinepilotpay.com, you will see that the pilots of both NW and DL are still paid significantly higher than the other legacy carriers. For example, a five year FO on a 757 at DL gets $109 an hour and the same position at NW gets $110 an hour. While at UA the same position and years of service gets $90, on US they get $87, on CO they get $91 and on AA they get $98 an hour. Now compare that to the LCCs, at JetBlue a 5 year FO makes $72 an hour (A320 not 757), at TZ they make $68 an hour and at Fronteir they make $82 an hour (A320 not 757). WN is the only LCC that pays their pilots well, at $109 for a 5 year FO.

You can bet your bottom dollar that management at NW and DL are looking at this and are positioning themselves to go after the pilots for additional paycuts. With NW, this may occur during the MX strike, if it occurs, and there are already reports that DL management has approached their pilots for additional cuts, even though DALPA denies this.

So this is going to turn out to be real ugly for the pilots not only at NW, but at DL.
Tailwinds!!!
 
Cubsrule
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RE: NWA Pilots File Grievance Over Champion Flying.

Fri Aug 12, 2005 2:05 am

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 8):
Talking to my father yesterday that was the case. He was beginning to wonder why yesterday their were quite a few Champion planes at NW gates when the union and pilots were told only one flight was being operated with Champion.

But if everything for your father is as though he flew the flight except for him actually entering the cockpit and flying the a/c to DFW or LAN or wherever, why does it matter how many flights Champion picked up?
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
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ual747den
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RE: NWA Pilots File Grievance Over Champion Flying.

Fri Aug 12, 2005 2:43 am

Ok so like I said above this was just a legality needed to protect ALPA. I just talked to someone close to the situation on the NW side and he said that NW knew that this would be done and had already talked to ALPA to negotiate the terms of using Champion. ALPA had to do this so that if NW started giving non-MX effected flights to Champion they would have something to fall back on and the process would have already been started.
Frontier Airlines - Low Fares Done Right
 
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jetjack74
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RE: NWA Pilots File Grievance Over Champion Flying.

Fri Aug 12, 2005 3:01 am

Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 6):
They are (from everything I have herd) with the airline in the MX strike matter. They have done their part and they expect the other unions to do theirs to keep the airline alive.

This is a psychological tactic by NW to show they can and will replace the mainline workforce in hopes of not having to negotiate with the union rank and file. They start with the mechs and move on to the next labour group.

Quoting FlyGuyClt (Reply 3):
I'll say this. Is what NWA is asking of AMFA any less than UAL or USAirways? Because to be quite blunt. If NWA goes into Chapter 11. They must have lower cost than any airline in Chapter 11 to get the exit financing needed to get out of Chapter 11. MEANING. Your pay will be lower than UAL or USAirways if you go Chapter 11. PERIOD.

FlyGuy, NW is using heavy-handed tactics to try and replace an entire workforce with less skilled labour. If NW succeeds with this, then the Pilots and FA's are next. They're already proposing to farm out the backbone of the fleet to an either newly created carrier, or through aquisition of a cheaper cost airline. This isn't like song or TED, this is replacement. I would be out of a job without a doubt, if they were to make this to happen, firstly with the Pacific-based FA's taking out international routes and then the NewCo proposal. You would be back on reserve for most of the rest of your career if you last that long. I'll negotiate for some wage concessions. But these losses aren't all because of high labour cost's, but mostly to outrageous oil prices.
Made from jets!
 
flyinghippo
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RE: NWA Pilots File Grievance Over Champion Flying.

Fri Aug 12, 2005 3:18 am

Seriously... I think the Unions will ruin the airline industry...

Can an airline say NO to unions? Form an airline, and pay them based on experience and performance. If they form a union, dissolve the airline and let them find other jobs...

My dad's company is being killed by unions (He's in the shipping industry), union truck drivers gets $85 per hour after 5 years of service, 2X double time pay, 2X pay during MEAL hours, 3X pay during grave yard shifts... all for driving trucks from the container ship to the storage area...

Unions served a good purpose when it first started, now they're skewing the supply/demand curve, and ruining industries due to their greedieness.
 
aviationwiz
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RE: NWA Pilots File Grievance Over Champion Flying.

Fri Aug 12, 2005 3:31 am

Quoting FlyingHippo (Reply 13):
Seriously... I think the Unions will ruin the airline industry...

Man, I didn't know I was the Pope! Have you been living under a rock the past few weeks? NW is spending plenty of good money that would go well on the bargaining table on training, and hiring scabs, not to mention leasing planes from Champion. Oh, and don't even get me started on how it's always the workers taking the pay cuts and the management just about never has any pay cuts or lay offs.
Proudly from the Home of the Red Tail.
 
frequentflyer
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RE: NWA Pilots File Grievance Over Champion Flying.

Fri Aug 12, 2005 4:03 am

Quoting FlyingHippo (Reply 13):
Unions served a good purpose when it first started, now they're skewing the supply/demand curve, and ruining industries due to their greedieness.

Could not agree more.

Besides, this is true for (too) many industries. So easy to focus on your own backyard turning a blind eye to economic conditions and letting union workers believe that "always more" is possible regardless of competition. Regardless of the intent to strike and thus endanger Companies by damaging client perception. Sad.
Take off and live
 
FlyGuyClt
Topic Author
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RE: NWA Pilots File Grievance Over Champion Flying.

Fri Aug 12, 2005 4:10 am

I really do hope that all invovled over there will sit down and fix it to maximize the skilled work force. Get a cost structure for survival and incentives for profits. To keep all current NWA employees and come up with something to make it work, for all !

Safe Flying  Smile
Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
 
flyinghippo
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RE: NWA Pilots File Grievance Over Champion Flying.

Fri Aug 12, 2005 4:22 am

If I am on the negotiating table, here is what I'd suggest:

In order for NW to survive, everyone will need to take a pay cut. Pilots, F/A, mechanics, ramp/baggage handlers, and management.

If you get paid by NW, you will take a paycut (hopefully less than 10%). When NW returns to the black, a set percentage of the profit will be divided amongs the workers, so the more profits NW gets, the more $$ they will get.

This pay structure will be similar to the management's pay structure (Yes, the pay scale is a bit different, but that's another story), and everyone will feel the ownership of the airline.

The airline industry needs to find a way to get along with unions and vice versa!!
 
FlyGuyClt
Topic Author
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RE: NWA Pilots File Grievance Over Champion Flying.

Fri Aug 12, 2005 4:26 am

Quoting FlyingHippo (Reply 17):
In order for NW to survive, everyone will need to take a pay cut. Pilots, F/A, mechanics, ramp/baggage handlers, and management.

Asking for 21.6% from a 15 year F/A in hourly pay only. 8% from a new hire.

Quoting FlyingHippo (Reply 17):
If you get paid by NW, you will take a paycut (hopefully less than 10%). When NW returns to the black, a set percentage of the profit will be divided amongs the workers, so the more profits NW gets, the more $$ they will get.

Could not agree with you more.

Quoting FlyingHippo (Reply 17):
The airline industry needs to find a way to get along with unions and vice versa!!

R E S P E C T Or so the song goes.

Safe Flying  Smile
Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
 
seven3seven
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RE: NWA Pilots File Grievance Over Champion Flying.

Fri Aug 12, 2005 4:29 am

You people are pretty ignorant about unions. They do serve a purpose and work pretty darn well. Whether you agree with them or not, management of a company agrees to enter into collective bargaining with a union and agrees to abide by a contract that is negotiated by both parties.

NW pilots obviously have a scope clause in their contract that limits the flying done by contracted parties. If NW violated the contract by contracting out too much flying with Champion then the pilots are very correct to file a grievance.
My views are mine alone and are not that of any of my fellow employees, officers, or directors at my company
 
m404
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RE: NWA Pilots File Grievance Over Champion Flying.

Fri Aug 12, 2005 4:33 am

FlyingHippo

If you get paid by NW, you will take a paycut (hopefully less than 10%).

So far it looks more like a 24 percent average paycut and if the threats/proposals are included, 1/3 to 1/2 work force replaced and
no scope clauses to guarantee/plan for future employment.
Less sarcasm and more thought equal better understanding
 
flyinghippo
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RE: NWA Pilots File Grievance Over Champion Flying.

Fri Aug 12, 2005 4:35 am

Quoting Seven3seven (Reply 19):
Whether you agree with them or not, management of a company agrees to enter into collective bargaining with a union and agrees to abide by a contract that is negotiated by both parties.

Well... what is the other alternative? Don't sign the CBA and be another Eastern Airlines?
 
frequentflyer
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RE: NWA Pilots File Grievance Over Champion Flying.

Fri Aug 12, 2005 4:50 am

... instead of thinking contract first, maybe people shoud think Company survival first.

and then be reasonable (both parties).

And Yes, that can warrant revising the contract when the Business is in trouble.

The more it goes, the more I think there is a deficit of either Goodwill, clear- sightedness or negotiating skills in this issue.
Take off and live
 
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jetpixx
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RE: NWA Pilots File Grievance Over Champion Flying.

Fri Aug 12, 2005 5:05 am

I am flying NW from FLL-DTW-CAK and back on Aug. 25-29 - what are the chances I will be affected. Are these only NW MX? And the commuter flights - SF3, ARJ, CRJ are not affected?

I am also flying them on Sept. 16-19 - FLL-DTW-CAK and CLE-DTW-FLL - and just want to make sure I am not affected too much.
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burnsie28
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RE: NWA Pilots File Grievance Over Champion Flying.

Fri Aug 12, 2005 9:58 am

Quoting Jetpixx (Reply 23):
I am flying NW from FLL-DTW-CAK and back on Aug. 25-29 - what are the chances I will be affected. Are these only NW MX? And the commuter flights - SF3, ARJ, CRJ are not affected?

I am also flying them on Sept. 16-19 - FLL-DTW-CAK and CLE-DTW-FLL - and just want to make sure I am not affected too much.

NW plans to run full schedule during strike, so hopefully your flights will not be effected.

September everything should be calm again, especially that far down the road.

Quoting FlyingHippo (Reply 17):

In order for NW to survive, everyone will need to take a pay cut. Pilots, F/A, mechanics, ramp/baggage handlers, and management.

Pilots have already taken cuts, management has too, now its time for the others.

Quoting FlyGuyClt (Reply 18):
Asking for 21.6% from a 15 year F/A in hourly pay only. 8% from a new hire.

You can only go so far, and thats too low.

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