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BCAL
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Jet2.com - All Is Not Well?

Wed Aug 17, 2005 6:20 pm

I have read that all is not well at Jet2.com. The share price of the main company (Dart Group) has dropped, their auditors have resigned, apparently their fuel hedging is a fiasco (they are reported to be paying full price), their fleet of 737s are ageing and need constant maintenance, their engineers are "overworked" and "tired" and MAN base is performing very modestly.

On top of this, many staff are reporting that Meson (their founder, chairman and CEO) has been bullying and abusing staff, including reducing a cabin crew to tears at Murcia with only 30-minutes for the turnaround back to base. Their pilots are poorly paid, compared with FR and U2, and Meson reportedly told a captain to help clean the aircraft on turnaround to avoid any delay. Some of Meson's recent actions make MOL look angelic.

Will Jet2.com be the next casualty of the over-expansion in the UK's LCC market? Can anyone confirm the reports about the CEO's behaviour?
MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
 
ACEregular
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RE: Jet2.com - All Is Not Well?

Wed Aug 17, 2005 6:25 pm

At U2 its not uncommon to see the flightdeck crew cleaning alongside the cabin crew, they do this because its A: good teamwork and B: creates good CRM. If one of them is doing the walk around what is the other doing??????

I do not see why its that shocking, time is money after all and a plane flying is like a cash register that pays us all.
 
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RobK
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RE: Jet2.com - All Is Not Well?

Wed Aug 17, 2005 6:27 pm

Quoting BCAL (Thread starter):
I have read that all is not well at Jet2.com. The share price of the main company (Dart Group) has dropped, their auditors have resigned, apparently their fuel hedging is a fiasco (they are reported to be paying full price), their fleet of 737s are ageing and need constant maintenance, their engineers are "overworked" and "tired" and MAN base is performing very modestly.

On top of this, many staff are reporting that Meson (their founder, chairman and CEO) has been bullying and abusing staff, including reducing a cabin crew to tears at Murcia with only 30-minutes for the turnaround back to base. Their pilots are poorly paid, compared with FR and U2, and Meson reportedly told a captain to help clean the aircraft on turnaround to avoid any delay. Some of Meson's recent actions make MOL look angelic.

Will Jet2.com be the next casualty of the over-expansion in the UK's LCC market? Can anyone confirm the reports about the CEO's behaviour?

What is your source ?

RK
 
Orion737
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RE: Jet2.com - All Is Not Well?

Wed Aug 17, 2005 6:27 pm

I am suprised and shocked to hear of this. Jet2 crew have always seemed so friendly, smiling and happy in their work. Perhaps, they are just bloody good actresses?

I think some of Jet2's expansion has been ill thought out. Their TFS run and aquisition of the 757, for example.
 
BCAL
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RE: Jet2.com - All Is Not Well?

Wed Aug 17, 2005 6:32 pm

Quoting ACEregular (Reply 1):
I do not see why its that shocking

If a member of the flight deck crew volunteers to help the cabin crew clean the aircraft at turnaround, that is good team work and CRM. But for a captain to be shouted at by the airline's CEO to help clean the aircraft is perhaps "shocking", particularly if this is in front of his subordinates.
MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
 
ACEregular
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RE: Jet2.com - All Is Not Well?

Wed Aug 17, 2005 6:36 pm

well I think as crew I might be a bit peeved when the slot is brought forward you are delayed already and he is in the galley making himself a cuppa. Not that he was but I have seen this and its not the sort of thing you might do with a CEO on board.
 
Orion737
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RE: Jet2.com - All Is Not Well?

Wed Aug 17, 2005 6:40 pm

Why didnt the CEO pick up a duster and Mr Sheen?
 
7LBAC111
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RE: Jet2.com - All Is Not Well?

Wed Aug 17, 2005 6:41 pm

It was mentioned in another thread yesterday that Jet2 were struggling, but again without a source. It was also suggested U2 would buy them and utilise their fleet to open up more services to MAN. But again there was no source to this.

I would be disaoppinted to see Jet2 fail, but would assume that they will succeed until such time as I see proof to the contrary. I do accept however, that the market cannot currently sustain so many LCC's.

7LBAC111
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Orion737
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RE: Jet2.com - All Is Not Well?

Wed Aug 17, 2005 6:46 pm

It would be a shame because Jet2, in my opinion, are the most civilised of the no-frills carriers. You get an allocated seat at check-in and staff seem friendly and proffesional and cabins are always clean.

I think all these grand expansion plans at Manchester and this 757 aquisition was over ambitious. They should have concentrated on their LBA hub. At LBA they have a virtual monopoly on many routes they fly. At Manchester they have lots of competitors on their routes, many offering much lower fares.

Their routes from MAN-EDI and MAN-LGW, for exampe. One can often obtain a seat cheaper on the competing full frills airline!
 
ACEregular
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RE: Jet2.com - All Is Not Well?

Wed Aug 17, 2005 6:51 pm

There are still those rumours of the orange vulture circling overhead, U2 are eager to get another base in the northwest and if things do get worse they will be ripe for the taking.
 
philb
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RE: Jet2.com - All Is Not Well?

Wed Aug 17, 2005 7:16 pm

Until the original poster gives his source and it is proved to be from a verifiable and usually reliable source, theis whole thread is a waste of bandwidth.
 
richardw
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RE: Jet2.com - All Is Not Well?

Wed Aug 17, 2005 7:26 pm

Quoting Orion737 (Reply 8):
Jet2, in my opinion, are the most civilised of the no-frills carriers. You get an allocated seat at check-in and staff seem friendly and proffesional and cabins are always clean.

Seems they copied the Go Fly strategy
 
BCAL
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RE: Jet2.com - All Is Not Well?

Wed Aug 17, 2005 7:39 pm

Quoting Philb (Reply 10):
Until the original poster gives his source

Main source was from the Professional Pilots Rumour Network. Leave it for you to decide if it is reliable, but have verified facts about Dart Group share price and resignation of auditors, and it has been mentioned on other threads that Jet2 is struggling.
MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
 
Orion737
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RE: Jet2.com - All Is Not Well?

Wed Aug 17, 2005 7:42 pm

Struggling, yet hell bent on further expansion. I mean why all the new routes and introduction of the 757 and all the costs involved?
 
philb
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RE: Jet2.com - All Is Not Well?

Wed Aug 17, 2005 7:45 pm

Well then that's just more speculation, half truths and perhaps just a hint of a one off argument.
 
TOMfly
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RE: Jet2.com - All Is Not Well?

Wed Aug 17, 2005 7:53 pm

I have been looking at Jet2 a lot recently and I have noticed that they dont seem to utilise their aircraft effectively. They have a large amount of aircraft based at Leeds/Bradford and Manchester and still not a great deal of routes. Why is this? Do their aircraft have 6-8 sectors a day?? If not then why? Surely if you want to make money you need your aircraft to perform as many sectors per day as possible.
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philb
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RE: Jet2.com - All Is Not Well?

Wed Aug 17, 2005 8:03 pm

Quoting TOMfly (Reply 15):
I have been looking at Jet2 a lot recently and I have noticed that they dont seem to utilise their aircraft effectively. They have a large amount of aircraft based at Leeds/Bradford and Manchester and still not a great deal of routes. Why is this? Do their aircraft have 6-8 sectors a day?? If not then why? Surely if you want to make money you need your aircraft to perform as many sectors per day as possible.

Depends on how they are financed. Also it is cheaper to fly less sectors, use less fuel, pay less in navigation and landing/handling charges if the sectors you do fly make a healthy profit and additional sectors would not attract a profitable load.
 
EGNM-LBA
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RE: Jet2.com - All Is Not Well?

Wed Aug 17, 2005 10:02 pm

re the 757s...

Jet2 are shifting about 22,000+ passengers per month between Leeds and Malaga in the peak summer, or about 740 per day (must be lots of demand from Harrogate to Malaga!). It takes 3 x 737-300 roundtrips per day to achieve this . 1 x daily 757-200 and 1 x daily 737-300 provides 760 seats. Jet2 can therefore achieve the same volume of passengers with a 33% reduction in flying hours.

The block hour operating cost of the 757 is about one third greater than the 737. So let's, for the sake of argument, assume that the operating costs per block hour are £1500 for the 737 and £2000 for the 757.

Current Option
3 x 737 roudtrips at 2.5 hours per sector = 15 hours @ £1500 = £22,500.

Total - £22,500

Proposed Option
1 x 737 roundtrip at 2.5 hours per sector = 5 hours @ 1500 = £7500
1 x 757 roundtrip at 2.5 hours per sector = 5 hours @ 2000 = £10000

Total = £17,500.

Result = £5000 / 20% per day saving in direct operating costs with no change in volumes. If anything, yields will be tighter on 2 sectors given that the sector to be sacrificed is the one currently arriving back into LBA at 02:00 hrs and it is priced accordingly.

...not such a silly idea afterall. Anyone would think the people at Jet2 had been running a successful airline for the past 20 years!
 
Orion737
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RE: Jet2.com - All Is Not Well?

Wed Aug 17, 2005 10:05 pm

Yes but this 757 is coming on linefor the Winter and I suspect it was purchased specifically for the longer run from LBA-TFS. What other routes besides AGP (much less deman Nov-Apr) can support a 757 ex Leeds?
 
Candid76
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RE: Jet2.com - All Is Not Well?

Wed Aug 17, 2005 10:14 pm

Quoting LBA" class=quote target=_blank>EGNM-LBA (Reply 17):
(must be lots of demand from Harrogate to Malaga!).

Probably Spaniards visiting Betty's Tea Shop in Harrogate. If only I had one of those Strawberry and cream tarts...

Quoting Philb (Reply 16):
Depends on how they are financed. Also it is cheaper to fly less sectors, use less fuel, pay less in navigation and landing/handling charges if the sectors you do fly make a healthy profit and additional sectors would not attract a profitable load.

By not stretching the aircraft to their limits there is less chance of significant disruption and delay when weather/tech/other problems occur. This can save substantial amounts in compensation payments, not to mention the good reputation punctuality brings with customers.

To add to EGNM-LBA's interesting analysis on DOCs (Direct Operating Costs), I doubt that Jet2 will be paying very high leasing charges for the 757s, given that they are early model high time aircraft that have been stored at Goodyear for some time. In fact some early 757s are being broken up, the latest being the MyTravel 757 at Lasham.
 
CV580Freak
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RE: Jet2.com - All Is Not Well?

Wed Aug 17, 2005 10:19 pm

Just a thought

Why not B737-300QC's

Flying cargo for Channel Express at night and self loading cargo in daylight hours for Jet2
One day you are the pigeon, the next the statue ...
 
CKT789
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RE: Jet2.com - All Is Not Well?

Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:46 pm

Regarding the auditors, Dart Group received a clean audit report for the year ended 31st March 2005 (which is good), and they were reappointed for another year at the AGM held on 4th August.

http://www.dartgroup.co.uk/reports.html

Also, auditors resigning isn't necessarily a bad thing. There are rules that state that your auditor should be changed every so often to ensure independance. Also, it could be that a Director of the Company is linked to the auditors and so their independance would have been compromised.

On the share price, see below.

http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/f..._data/shares/3/25031/one_month.stm

It isn't too bad. Most airline stocks are down at the moment because of high fuel charges. This is affecting the whole industry and I don't think we can single out Jet2 as struggling.

Jamie.
 
BestWestern
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RE: Jet2.com - All Is Not Well?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 1:19 am

Quoting Orion737 (Reply 13):
Struggling, yet hell bent on further expansion. I mean why all the new routes and introduction of the 757 and all the costs involved?

Often a common mistake by companies is to over expand, and run into cashflow issues.

Quoting Philb (Reply 16):
Depends on how they are financed. Also it is cheaper to fly less sectors, use less fuel, pay less in navigation and landing/handling charges if the sectors you do fly make a healthy profit and additional sectors would not attract a profitable load

Name one successful low cost carrier that follows a low utilisation model. I guarantee you cant.

If you have parked aircraft, why continue leasing more?

Quoting EGNM-LBA (Reply 17):
...not such a silly idea afterall.

Immensly silly idea. You may save dollars in operating costs, but the complication of running the business.

Quoting Candid76 (Reply 19):
By not stretching the aircraft to their limits there is less chance of significant disruption and delay when weather/tech/other problems occur. This can save substantial amounts in compensation payments, not to mention the good reputation punctuality brings with customers.

Get real... I have a better idea. If they dont fly at all, then they wont have any compensation bills to pay.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
7LBAC111
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RE: Jet2.com - All Is Not Well?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 1:33 am

So you're not buying these suggestions BestWestern???? Big grin

What do you feel are Jet2's best chances at success at this time?

7LBAC111
Debate is what you put on de hook when you want to catch de fish.
 
Candid76
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RE: Jet2.com - All Is Not Well?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 1:33 am

OK, so enlighten me as to the terms of the utilisation deal between Dart Group (who own/lease the aircraft) and Jet2 (the operator). If you pay a fixed rate per month (for example) then you need to utilise the aircraft as much as possible in order to spread your fixed costs across as many hours as possible, such as leasing costs, crew salaries, insurance etc. If however you agree a deal with the lessor that allows you to have an element of spare capacity (for example you could have a power by the hour deal on certain aircraft or you may agree a fixed minimum monthly utilisation across the fleet for which you pay a set amount). As these are older aircraft, there may have been some room for negotiation (most were acquired from bankrupt Ansett).

Things are not always as cut and dried as you might think.
 
7LBAC111
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RE: Jet2.com - All Is Not Well?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 1:35 am

Quoting Candid76 (Reply 24):
OK, so enlighten me as to the terms of the utilisation deal between Dart Group (who own/lease the aircraft) and Jet2 (the operator).

Is it relevant as Dart Group own Jet2......?
Debate is what you put on de hook when you want to catch de fish.
 
philb
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RE: Jet2.com - All Is Not Well?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 1:37 am

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 22):
Name one successful low cost carrier that follows a low utilisation model. I guarantee you cant.

Of course I can't but you misunderstand what I wrote. There is a difference between low utilisation and profitable utilisation at a reasonable level, just as there is a world of a difference between profitable utilisation at a reasonable level and expanding to keep aircraft in the air at all times, whatever the yield - which often leads to early bankruptcy.
 
Candid76
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RE: Jet2.com - All Is Not Well?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 1:43 am

Quoting 7LBAC111 (Reply 25):
Is it relevant as Dart Group own Jet2......?

I'm not party to the exact structure (which is why I'm asking) but there must be cost allocations from a parent company to its subsidiaries. Perhaps I am approaching this from the wrong angle, however I am pretty convinced that there must be a cost structure which allows the airline to utilise its aircraft less intensively than other LCCs, or they wouldn't do it. This doesn't mean that they couldn't make more money by increasing utilisation though.
 
BestWestern
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RE: Jet2.com - All Is Not Well?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 2:08 am

Quoting 7LBAC111 (Reply 23):
What do you feel are Jet2's best chances at success at this time?

If I had to pick a UK LCC to not be here next year, it would be Jet2. They operate a fleet of clapped out 733's which love fuel. I can see them being an acquisition target for either TUI or WW (once Mick Bishop has got rid of Bmi) and cutting and shunting the company together. I also belive that EasyJet may take a pot shot at the airline - perhaps from Doncaster, which shares the LBA catchment.

Focus on becoming the dominant carrier at Leeds. Slow growth at a second non major airport (i.e. not manchester - too much competition - potentially EDI)

Steer clear of EZY and FR LCC routes. If Jet2 steps on Easy's toes, expect war. (Look at the Globespan experience)

Grow at a steady rate, too fast growth kills yields and brings extra costs of hiring staff at a premium. Perhaps two new aircraft each summer - with one aircraft going off lease in October.

Have a nice mixture of routes - Summer Leisure, City Breaks Year round VFR, Business, and less loss making Winter destinations.

Don't over complicate the business. The fixed costs of a having two fleet types in such a small airline are crippiling.

High utilisation and short flghts are paramount to a profitable low cost business. This enables you to get your per sector fixed costs dramatically down. Thats why Ryanair and easyJet introduced twenty minute turns. Squeezing an extra rotation onto a daily can cut fixed costs by 20%.

Dont bring additional capacity on board between October and March. Nobody makes money in the depths of winter - why make it worse.

Quoting 7LBAC111 (Reply 25):
Is it relevant as Dart Group own Jet2......?

Yes - The CAA want to ensure that the airline can continue to fly - suspect intecompany transactions can affect this.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
Leezyjet
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RE: Jet2.com - All Is Not Well?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 6:44 am

Quoting RobK (Reply 2):
What is your source ?

There was a thread on www.pprune.org about this earlier today, although I have just looked again and the thread appears to have been deleted, as I couldn't find it even after doing a search.

How reliable was the origional poster on pprune ?. Who knows, was it someone genuine with inside knowledge that saw for themselves or as is common on that site, just another disgruntled f/deck crew member making things out to be worse than they really are from hearsay on GalleyFM.

Also do we know the facts from the CEO's side of the story ?. No, so we can't really comment on if these events really did happen as that poster stated or if it has been elaborated to make it sound "jucier".

Also the wages are not exactly bad at Jet2. Have a look here http://www.channel-express.co.uk/recruitment.html and see for yourself. £55k for a Captain isn't that bad in my eyes. I'd gladly work for that amount, especially living in Yorkshire where £55k goes along way. I live on £30K less than that in London and I'm hardly on the breadline.

 Smile
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EGNM-LBA
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RE: Jet2.com - All Is Not Well?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 7:03 am

Quoting BCAL (Thread starter):
Quoting EGNM-LBA (Reply 17):
...not such a silly idea afterall.

Immensly silly idea. You may save dollars in operating costs, but the complication of running the business.

...costs what exactly?

Jet2 makes the bulk of its money from flying large volumes of punters to the core Spanish holiday destinations and with the medium-term outlook on fuel where it is, shifting this traffic in the most cost-effective way is a smart move.

Please please get into your heads that Jet2 is also a just a front end for Channel Express Air Services which has been around for years and is a already a diverse and complicated business. They operate A300B4 Freighters across Europe, until recently ran F27s on mail flights (now replaced by the QC 737s which do Jet2 flying in the day), the run a passenger contract service out of Stansted, a dedicted 737 freighter etc. Jet2 has just been bolted onto the top of this existing infrastructure at little in the way of additional fixed cost (no extra flight ops, HR, Finance, crewing, rostering, planning etc). I just don't buy the idea that sticking a couple of 757s into this business is going to cripple it.

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 28):
Focus on becoming the dominant carrier at Leeds.

already done surely. Approaching 50% of the passenger throughput at LBA.

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 28):
Have a nice mixture of routes - Summer Leisure, City Breaks Year round VFR, Business, and less loss making Winter destinations.

Like Malaga, Alicante, Palma, Ibiza, Prague, Belfast and Amsterdam you mean?
Why would you want 'less' loss making destinations; you'd want none - which judging by the absence of NCE, PMI, VCE, PSA, VLC. BOH from the winter schedule is exactly what they've done.

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 28):
Dont bring additional capacity on board between October and March. Nobody makes money in the depths of winter - why make it worse.

they haven't - 1 x 737-400 and 3 x 737-300 (600 seats) leased from Air Atlantic Icelandic which go back at end of Oct. 2 x 757s (470 seats) come in.

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 28):
Don't over complicate the business. The fixed costs of a having two fleet types in such a small airline are crippiling.

As I said above the existing channel express infrastructure will support this. Also refer to Astreaus and Titan who successfully run small mixed 737/757 operations.
 
BestWestern
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RE: Jet2.com - All Is Not Well?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 4:39 pm

Quoting LBA" class=quote target=_blank>EGNM-LBA (Reply 30):
Also refer to Astreaus and Titan who successfully run small mixed 737/757 operations.

Dont compare Jet2 to Astreus and Titan, who are wet lease specialists. Its like comparing BA to GECAS.

Quoting LBA" class=quote target=_blank>EGNM-LBA (Reply 30):
Please please get into your heads that Jet2 is also a just a front end for Channel Express Air Services which has been around for years and is a already a diverse and complicated business

I know that. Hauling freight and passengers are two very different businesses. Freight loads are contracted in advance in bulk (royal mail, etc). Passengers arent.

Quoting LBA" class=quote target=_blank>EGNM-LBA (Reply 30):
Like Malaga, Alicante, Palma, Ibiza, Prague, Belfast and Amsterdam you mean?

Exactly - they should continue this mixture of routes

Quoting LBA" class=quote target=_blank>EGNM-LBA (Reply 30):
Why would you want 'less' loss making destinations; you'd want none - which judging by the absence of NCE, PMI, VCE, PSA, VLC. BOH from the winter schedule is exactly what they've done.

Thats a lot of routes to drop for winter. Is IBZ really being kept for winter - IBZ dies in September.

Quoting LBA" class=quote target=_blank>EGNM-LBA (Reply 30):
(no extra flight ops, HR, Finance, crewing, rostering, planning etc).

What?? - someone started a passenger airline with no additional planning or crewing, HR, etc??? - explains why so many winter routes are being dropped. Such lack of planning will fit perfectly into the BD group.

Quoting LBA" class=quote target=_blank>EGNM-LBA (Reply 30):
Approaching 50% of the passenger throughput at LBA

At an airport the size of LBA, Approaching 50% isnt dominant - 70%+ is.

Quoting LBA" class=quote target=_blank>EGNM-LBA (Reply 30):
I just don't buy the idea that sticking a couple of 757s into this business is going to cripple it.

I look forward to witnessing the first successful LCC airline that is profitable with a sub-fleet of two.

Quoting LBA" class=quote target=_blank>EGNM-LBA (Reply 30):
...costs what exactly?

I'm mis-taken- I keep forgetting Jet2 is different to every other airline.  banghead   banghead   banghead 

Ask yourself why airlines such as IB, BA, EI, FR, DL etc are simplifying their fleet types. EI will have one shorthaul fleet type by year end. BA has one short haul and one long haul fleet type at Gatwick, and has raidically simplified BACX and Heathrow Ops. IB are going the same way on short haul and long haul. Even DL realise it.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
trident2e
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RE: Jet2.com - All Is Not Well?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 4:47 pm

Quoting BCAL (Thread starter):
I have read that all is not well at Jet2.com

It was written on the back of a fag packet left by one of the cleaners. Or that's what my mate said, and he should know cos he knows Johnny who is the best mate of my girlfriend's second cousin's mother-in-law, and she knows someone who works there, so it must be true  Big grin
 
philb
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RE: Jet2.com - All Is Not Well?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 6:10 pm

quote=BestWestern,reply=31]At an airport the size of LBA, Approaching 50% isn't dominant - 70%+ is. [/quote]

It's the most dominant any airline has been at LBA since the days of BKS/Northeast in the 1960s and 1970s and they had around 60%. of a much smaller load share.

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 31):
Ask yourself why airlines such as IB, BA, EI, FR, DL etc are simplifying their fleet types. EI will have one shorthaul fleet type by year end. BA has one short haul and one long haul fleet type at Gatwick, and has raidically simplified BACX and Heathrow Ops. IB are going the same way on short haul and long haul. Even DL realise it.

True as far as it goes but has it occurred to you that they may have market intelligence of there own, or perhaps another utilisation planned for down time with the aircraft?
Also, if FR can drive up pax figures to profitably use 737-800s on 737-200 routes why can't Jet2 do a similar trick with the 757s.

If the maintenance and lease packages are in line with the
age of the aircraft, the crew packages are negotiated distinctly from the rest of the company (as for instance BA did with Concorde) then this could work.

I note that Best Western lists his occupation as: transport analyst - market intelligence.

Now a lot of what he says is correct but analysts are like bank managers. They are all experts in everybody else's businesses, make decisions about those businesses that other people follow and which affect jobs and livelihoods. But few, if any, have ever actually run a business as a senior manager, director or owner or had experience in every or any aspect of product or staff management.

A case of those who can do, those who can't analyse.

The one thing that makes them nervous is departure from what they regard as the "norm" in the way that the Wright Brothers, any of Juan Trippe/Bob Six/Bill Boeing/Donald Douglas/Richard Branson did and even the quoted Ryanair would never have been turned around into the success it is had it had to depend on cash from banks which would have consulted analysts before lending money.

Entrepreneurial and pioneering spirit worries them as they might be expected to predict the outcome and they might just, God forbid, get it wrong!

Thank God that most of the world's most useful inventions have been produced by people who didn't listen to analysts.





[
 
cornish
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RE: Jet2.com - All Is Not Well?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 6:15 pm

EasyJet's daily aircraft utilisation is 11.2 hours in the last financial year (exactly the same as Southwest's by the way). I'd be interested to know what Jet2's is. also how many daily rotations they manage out of the aircraft.....

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 31):
Quoting LBA" class=quote target=_blank>EGNM-LBA (Reply 30):
Approaching 50% of the passenger throughput at LBA

At an airport the size of LBA, Approaching 50% isnt dominant - 70%+ is.

As the only LCC with a major base there, under 50% is not at all dominant. Ripe for another stronger carrier to move in.....
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
BestWestern
Posts: 8349
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 8:46 pm

RE: Jet2.com - All Is Not Well?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 7:55 pm

Quoting Philb (Reply 33):
analysts are like bank managers

etc... ad nausium

Dont stereotype or anything - you dont know anything about me.

Quoting Philb (Reply 33):
True as far as it goes but has it occurred to you that they may have market intelligence of there own

I keep forgetting that Jet2 operate in an aviaton Vaccuum. Things that affect other airlines have must the opposite effect on Jet2.

Quoting Cornish (Reply 34):
EasyJet's daily aircraft utilisation is 11.2 hours in the last financial year (exactly the same as Southwest's by the way). I'd be interested to know what Jet2's is. also how many daily rotations they manage out of the aircraft.....

I pulled the stats, and I'm amazed. Comparing like aircraft for like, In Feb 2005 (Latest stats) total usage for aircraft are as follows: this includes cargo flying

BmiBaby 733's 10.2 hours a day
EasyJet 733's: 10.2 hours a day
Britannia 735's 10.1 hours a day (Thompson Fly)
Globespan 733's 9.2 hours a day
British Air's 733's 8.0 hours a day (impressive considering Gatwick Slot issues)
Channel Express 733's 4.7 hours a day. (Jet2)

Source: CAA
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
7LBAC111
Posts: 2427
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2004 9:17 am

RE: Jet2.com - All Is Not Well?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 7:57 pm

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 35):
Channel Express 733's 4.7 hours a day. (Jet2)

Is that Channex INCLUDING the Jet2 operation?? In otherwards combined with their freight operation?

7LBAC111
Debate is what you put on de hook when you want to catch de fish.
 
BestWestern
Posts: 8349
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 8:46 pm

RE: Jet2.com - All Is Not Well?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 8:01 pm

Quoting 7LBAC111 (Reply 36):
Is that Channex INCLUDING the Jet2 operation?? In otherwards combined with their freight operation?

Yes.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
cornish
Posts: 7651
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:05 pm

RE: Jet2.com - All Is Not Well?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 8:02 pm

Quoting Philb (Reply 33):
I note that Best Western lists his occupation as: transport analyst - market intelligence.

Now a lot of what he says is correct but analysts are like bank managers. They are all experts in everybody else's businesses, make decisions about those businesses that other people follow and which affect jobs and livelihoods. But few, if any, have ever actually run a business as a senior manager, director or owner or had experience in every or any aspect of product or staff management.

A case of those who can do, those who can't analyse.

And you're qualifications for being right is what exactly then PhilB ?

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 35):
I pulled the stats, and I'm amazed. Comparing like aircraft for like, In Feb 2005 (Latest stats) total usage for aircraft are as follows: this includes cargo flying

BmiBaby 733's 10.2 hours a day
EasyJet 733's: 10.2 hours a day
Britannia 735's 10.1 hours a day (Thompson Fly)
Globespan 733's 9.2 hours a day
British Air's 733's 8.0 hours a day (impressive considering Gatwick Slot issues)
Channel Express 733's 4.7 hours a day. (Jet2)

Source: CAA

Wow that is indeed incredible. Now I know what others are saying about being profitable in other areas, but that is incredibly low utilisation. If Dart are making money, I can't see how that can be from the Jet2 side of the business.

Quoting Philb (Reply 33):
It's the most dominant any airline has been at LBA since the days of BKS/Northeast in the 1960s and 1970s and they had around 60%. of a much smaller load share.

True, but that is still a vulnerable market share should the likes of U2 or FR move in en-masse....
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
philb
Posts: 2645
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 5:53 am

RE: Jet2.com - All Is Not Well?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 8:10 pm

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 35):
etc... ad nausium
A very intelligent reply.

Dont stereotype or anything - you dont know anything about me.

I don't know anything about you personally but I do know a great deal about analysts, bank managers and finance houses and their dealings with business.

Therefore, with the application of that knowledge and, analysing your answers ...which go on ad nauseum (the spelling and usage is from the Latin, not the Greek) about your view of Jet2, I draw my conclusions.

You have some fair points but you are so convinced you are right 100% and the management of the whole group to which Jet2 belongs is wrong that you have lost your way and won't let anyone else have a different view.

If you are so right and they have really made a pigs ear I suggest you write to the chairman of the group giving a precis of your ideas.

if you do a good job of interesting him you may be able to set up a consultancy for them, start your own company and learn a little about how business really works - at the sharp end.
 
BestWestern
Posts: 8349
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 8:46 pm

RE: Jet2.com - All Is Not Well?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 9:25 pm

Quoting Philb (Reply 33):
A case of those who can do, those who can't analyse.



Quoting Philb (Reply 39):
learn a little about how business really works - at the sharp end.

As I have said above, you know nothing about me, so back off on the personal attacks if you dont mind. As for my spelling.... please have a look at your own postings first (there / their come to mind).

Anyway back to the original question discission - all not well at Jet2.

Quoting Cornish (Reply 38):
If Dart are making money, I can't see how that can be from the Jet2 side of the business.

When Jet2 was started, it was an excellent idea to use fully written down aircraft that were being used for the highly profitable mail runs at night. Then, the passenger business was marginal. Channel Express also had the experience of basically running the Buzz 733 stansted operation for a year. When you are running a business on the margins of your core business, utilisation isnt that critical. However, now that Jet2 are growing, and are leasing dedicated aircraft, and have ventured into Manchester the scale of the passenger operation is changing. One that has such low utilisation wont succeed. With half the utilisation of EasyJet, lease costs per passenger are at least double.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
cornish
Posts: 7651
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:05 pm

RE: Jet2.com - All Is Not Well?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 9:43 pm

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 40):
When Jet2 was started, it was an excellent idea to use fully written down aircraft that were being used for the highly profitable mail runs at night. Then, the passenger business was marginal. Channel Express also had the experience of basically running the Buzz 733 stansted operation for a year. When you are running a business on the margins of your core business, utilisation isnt that critical. However, now that Jet2 are growing, and are leasing dedicated aircraft, and have ventured into Manchester the scale of the passenger operation is changing. One that has such low utilisation wont succeed. With half the utilisation of EasyJet, lease costs per passenger are at least double.

Absolutely -although should financial problems arise, perhaps the answer they would look for is to sell the Jet2 business off completely to a rival or otherwise - a la Buzz or GO.

Incidentally, aside from Jet2, Ryanair's daily utilisation is somewhat lower than most of their LCC rivals, although still well above Jet2's...

But I still agree, they need higher daily utilisation for what is still a small LCC compared to its rivals....
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
philb
Posts: 2645
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 5:53 am

RE: Jet2.com - All Is Not Well?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 9:49 pm

BestWestern,

Stuck in your ivory tower, surrounded by computers, contributing to A.net (on company time?) has it ever occurred to you that the directors, investors, advisers and even the bankers who are behind Jet2 might just know a little bit more about their business than you.

Channel Express has been around a great deal longer than many airlines and it managed to grow from a pretty dodgy flower transporting business using clapped out Heralds into the multi faceted company it is today.

As I said before, you make some good points but you don't have all the facts, you are not party to the way the management is thinking - you are just convinced you are right.
 
diesel1
Posts: 1483
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2001 9:11 am

RE: Jet2.com - All Is Not Well?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 7:53 am

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 35):
I pulled the stats, and I'm amazed. Comparing like aircraft for like, In Feb 2005 (Latest stats) total usage for aircraft are as follows: this includes cargo flying

BmiBaby 733's 10.2 hours a day
EasyJet 733's: 10.2 hours a day
Britannia 735's 10.1 hours a day (Thompson Fly)
Globespan 733's 9.2 hours a day
British Air's 733's 8.0 hours a day (impressive considering Gatwick Slot issues)
Channel Express 733's 4.7 hours a day. (Jet2)

Source: CAA

This is a poor comparison to draw - it's like comparing apples with oranges - they're simply not the same thing.

Channel Express includes scheduled (Jet2), charter and cargo flights - three quite different segments of the airline market, whilst the comparison airlines are very much scheduled operators.

It would be really interesting Best Western, if you could dig out some more appropriate stats which give us a better guide to the difference between Jet2 and the other airlines?

I understood that the difference in Jet2's aircraft utilisation (i.e. their aircraft fly less) was explained away by the fact that the 737-300s were picked up relatively cheaply, are owned outright, so there is less pressure to maintain a high rate of utilisation?
Are there any facts that allow us to draw a fair comparison between the merits of operating lots of hours on an expensively leased aircraft, to operating far less on an aircraft that is fully owned and paid for?

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 31):
I look forward to witnessing the first successful LCC airline that is profitable with a sub-fleet of two.

The discussion about the addition of the 757 is interesting - I wonder whether we would challenge the fleet type addition as much if it was (for example) the 737-700.
Both the 757-200 and 737-700 are far more suited to operations like LBA-TFS than Jet2's 737-300s - if the acquisition of the 757s is cheaper than (for example) than a 737-700, and the use of the 757 allows up to around 85 additional passengers, then maybe it does make sense?
Another point, have Jet2 said that the 757 fleet will never expand past two examples?

Thinking speculatively, in terms of the Channel Express fleet, then surely operation of the 757 by Jet2, opens the opportunity of use of the 757 by Channel Express in a cargo role, so another possible reason to add a different type to the fleet?

My 2p worth...
I don't like signatures...
 
ACdreamliner
Posts: 429
Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:15 am

RE: Jet2.com - All Is Not Well?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 8:08 am

Quoting Orion737 (Reply 8):
It would be a shame because Jet2, in my opinion, are the most civilised of the no-frills carriers. You get an allocated seat at check-in and staff seem friendly and proffesional and cabins are always clean.

well, if they go, there is always WW, you get all that and more!
Where are you going?
 
philb
Posts: 2645
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 5:53 am

RE: Jet2.com - All Is Not Well?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 8:45 am

Quoting Cornish (Reply 38):
And you're qualifications for being right is what exactly then PhilB ?

Cornish,

If you and Best Western would care to list the names of the companies and the management positions with budgetary, staff control and policy making responsibilities you have both held over the last 35 years I will happily do the same.

I've been at various levels of management including that of CEO and owned (using my own money rather than a bank's) companies - and did well enough to retire 7 years ago at 51.
 
planesarecool
Posts: 3257
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2001 12:37 am

RE: Jet2.com - All Is Not Well?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 9:18 am

Quoting Philb (Reply 45):
I've been at various levels of management including that of CEO and owned (using my own money rather than a bank's) companies - and did well enough to retire 7 years ago at 51.

And that proves what? I'm sure there's many people within airlines that can't even point out what aircraft they operate, or the like.

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 40):
As I have said above, you know nothing about me, so back off on the personal attacks if you dont mind.

Don't worry, he does it all the time

Quoting Philb (Reply 33):
I note that Best Western lists his occupation as: transport analyst - market intelligence.

Now a lot of what he says is correct but analysts are like bank managers. They are all experts in everybody else's businesses, make decisions about those businesses that other people follow and which affect jobs and livelihoods. But few, if any, have ever actually run a business as a senior manager, director or owner or had experience in every or any aspect of product or staff management.

A case of those who can do, those who can't analyse.

The one thing that makes them nervous is departure from what they regard as the "norm" in the way that the Wright Brothers, any of Juan Trippe/Bob Six/Bill Boeing/Donald Douglas/Richard Branson did and even the quoted Ryanair would never have been turned around into the success it is had it had to depend on cash from banks which would have consulted analysts before lending money.

Entrepreneurial and pioneering spirit worries them as they might be expected to predict the outcome and they might just, God forbid, get it wrong!

Thank God that most of the world's most useful inventions have been produced by people who didn't listen to analysts.

Do you have to write a bleedin essay about everything?
 
trident2e
Posts: 1286
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 3:38 am

RE: Jet2.com - All Is Not Well?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 4:48 pm

Quoting Planesarecool (Reply 46):
I'm sure there's many people within airlines that can't even point out what aircraft they operate, or the like.

Surely you mean there are many, not there is many?

Quoting Planesarecool (Reply 46):
Don't worry, he does it all the time

People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones!
 
philb
Posts: 2645
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 5:53 am

RE: Jet2.com - All Is Not Well?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 6:14 pm

Quoting Planesarecool (Reply 46):
Do you have to write a bleedin essay about everything?

Ah, Planesarecool. A kid who goes to an exclusive private school where they don't teach the pupils not to use bad language.

If you don't like my posts don't read them. You are ignorant about so much as you regularly prove here, missing what little I could possibly have to add to your knowledge base won't make any difference.

Quoting Planesarecool (Reply 46):
And that proves what? I'm sure there's many people within airlines that can't even point out what aircraft they operate, or the like.

It proves I have knowledge, experience and have actually achieved something in life.

As to the knowledge of people in airlines, you could well be right - and that's part of the problem. In the late 1980s a very wise man wrote:

"A century ago, when Britain had companies run by engineers who knew about their business, we built world beating products and were innovative. The engineers needed accountants to keep the books. Unfortunately the accountants, who couldn't tell a widget from a grommet, took over the companies and the engineers now work for them. Now we make very little and rarely innovate".

As to the length of my posts - you may only have a ten second attention span and be happy with sound bite length information but to impart and receive real knowledge needs both detailed information and concentration.
 
7LBAC111
Posts: 2427
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2004 9:17 am

RE: Jet2.com - All Is Not Well?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 6:26 pm

Quoting Philb (Reply 42):
BestWestern,

Stuck in your ivory tower, surrounded by computers, contributing to A.net (on company time?)

Maybe. Maybe not. But I am contributing to A.net in company time. This is our perogative, and for those of us in the industry, A.net can be a valuable source of information, and thus highly relevant.

Quoting Philb (Reply 45):
If you and Best Western would care to list the names of the companies and the management positions with budgetary, staff control and policy making responsibilities you have both held over the last 35 years I will happily do the same.



Quoting Philb (Reply 45):
've been at various levels of management including that of CEO and owned (using my own money rather than a bank's) companies - and did well enough to retire 7 years ago at 51

Philb. You really are an arrogant bugger aren't you. Lose the chip on your shoulder which has been so apparent these past few weeks, and rather than jumping to discredit people at every opportunity, bear in mind that many of us are still working our way up the career ladder. Some quite succesfully in my opinion too.

7LBAC111
Debate is what you put on de hook when you want to catch de fish.

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