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philb
Posts: 2645
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 5:53 am

RE: Jet2.com - All Is Not Well?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 6:56 pm

Quoting 7LBAC111 (Reply 49):
Philb. You really are an arrogant bugger aren't you. Lose the chip on your shoulder which has been so apparent these past few weeks, and rather than jumping to discredit people at every opportunity, bear in mind that many of us are still working our way up the career ladder. Some quite succesfully in my opinion too.

Chip on my shoulder? I suggest you look at your own. How is it that so many people in your age group can't bear the fact that some of us "wrinklies" and "coffin dodgers" have a large knowledge base and have been through the mill of experience which has taught them a great deal.

There's nothing arrogant in correcting information that is blatantly wrong or is opinion posted as fact.

There's nothing wrong with working the way up a career ladder - I did the same and have employed a great number of people I've encouraged along the same path - but you need to acknowledge there are people around with a much wider knowledge and experience and when they point out you, or others, are plainly wrong, it is not to discredit but to ensure accuracy.

[quote=7LBAC111,reply=49]Maybe. Maybe not. But I am contributing to A.net in company time. This is our perogative, and for those of us in the industry, A.net can be a valuable source of information, and thus highly relevant.[/quote

Well I spent almost ten years providing the CAA, FAA, DFS, IATA, DG VII of the EU and many other bodies in aviation from airports, through airlines to manufacturers with conferences and seminars which attracted the top management, policy makers and politicians.

My professional opinion about the content of A.Net being of use, compared to the multitude of web pages available which are aimed at professionals, is that there are some threads which can provide business orientated info, but the vast majority are spotter/photography based with a few professionals contributing items of use.

Face it, this is your hobby which you are taking into your job. Not wrong to do that but I wonder what your CEO's view of A.Net and you spending time having a go at me in work time would be?
 
PMN
Posts: 547
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2005 7:44 am

RE: Jet2.com - All Is Not Well?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 7:04 pm

Quoting 7LBAC111 (Reply 49):
Philb. You really are an arrogant bugger aren't you. Lose the chip on your shoulder which has been so apparent these past few weeks, and rather than jumping to discredit people at every opportunity, bear in mind that many of us are still working our way up the career ladder.

I've been watching this thread develop for a while now and was waiting for someone to say that. Philb, you're clearly so far lodged up your own rectum you're beyond all hope of ever coming back out, but perhaps speaking to other members with at least a degree of respect, instead of implying everyone with the exception of you talks complete nonsense, would be a good idea.

I have no knowledge as to the state of the business side of Jet2, although all I can say is I'm a semi frequent flyer with them (LBA being 15 minutes away from my house) and it would certainly be a shame to see them no longer here. My nice long photo sessions sat on the wall at Yeadon Cemetary at the end of rwy 14 wouldn't be the same without those nice silver and red 737's hopping in and out all the time (and I wouldn't be able to bugger off on a nice cheap flight every other week).

Paul
Edith in his bed, a plane in the rain is humming, the wires in the walls are humming some song - some mysterious song
 
philb
Posts: 2645
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 5:53 am

RE: Jet2.com - All Is Not Well?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 7:19 pm

Quoting PMN (Reply 51):
I've been watching this thread develop for a while now and was waiting for someone to say that. Philb, you're clearly so far lodged up your own rectum you're beyond all hope of ever coming back out, but perhaps speaking to other members with at least a degree of respect, instead of implying everyone with the exception of you talks complete nonsense, would be a good idea.

Welcome PMN, another young "done little" who has no respect for age, knowledge and experience and can't even comprehend English but has a good grasp of insults.

Quoting PMN (Reply 51):
instead of implying everyone with the exception of you talks complete nonsense,



Quoting Philb (Reply 39):
You have some fair points but you are so convinced you are right 100% and the management of the whole group to which Jet2 belongs is wrong that you have lost your way and won't let anyone else have a different view.



Quoting Philb (Reply 42):
As I said before, you make some good points but you don't have all the facts, you are not party to the way the management is thinking - you are just convinced you are right.

.... that's implying that everyone with the exception of me talks complete nonsense is it? Did you do English comprehension at school?
 
7LBAC111
Posts: 2427
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2004 9:17 am

RE: Jet2.com - All Is Not Well?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 7:31 pm

Quoting Philb (Reply 52):
Quoting Philb (Reply 39):
You have some fair points but you are so convinced you are right 100% and the management of the whole group to which Jet2 belongs is wrong that you have lost your way and won't let anyone else have a different view.

The words Pot and Kettle springs to mind.

Quoting Philb (Reply 52):
Quoting Philb (Reply 42):
As I said before, you make some good points but you don't have all the facts, you are not party to the way the management is thinking - you are just convinced you are right.

And you Philb, are 'party to the way management ... think' are you?

Why dont you go and spend your fortune on something else, and allow the rest of us to enjoy our 'hobby' as you so patronisingly put it.

Buy a boat or something.

7LBAC111
Debate is what you put on de hook when you want to catch de fish.
 
Candid76
Posts: 563
Joined: Sun May 01, 2005 5:10 am

RE: Jet2.com - All Is Not Well?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 7:42 pm

Gentlemen, please...
 
philb
Posts: 2645
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 5:53 am

RE: Jet2.com - All Is Not Well?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 7:51 pm

Quoting 7LBAC111 (Reply 53):
And you Philb, are 'party to the way management ... think' are you?

No I'm not, nor have I claimed to be. If you tried to understand what I have said, you would realise that I was pointing out to BestWestern that, whilst he has some experience from his job, the fact that he is an analyst doesn't mean he has all the facts yet he is 100% certain that Jet2 is going down the wrong road and won't have it any other way.

Again, if you understood the thread, you would realise that whilst the case he makes is based on history - and history is a good teacher - it isn't always the absolute pointer to the future. In the case of Jet2, the owning group is widely experienced and whilst the introduction of the 757s may seem to outsiders to be odd, they will have their reasons and will have done their research.

Quoting 7LBAC111 (Reply 53):
Why dont you go and spend your fortune on something else, and allow the rest of us to enjoy our 'hobby' as you so patronisingly put it.

Buy a boat or something

What a mature, adult, professional comment.

Also, I wasn't patronising about the hobby - I've followed it for 50 years - you just want to take it that way.

I notice you don't elaborate with examples on how your using A.Net during work time helps your job, or how you think your CEO would react to your constant presence here.

I wonder how many here have been watching BBC's Dealing with Dickenson where a group of people with a range of knowledge of antiques, from the almost non existent to the level of "dabblers in buying and selling" have been given £50,000 of his money to buy antiques, under his guidance, to sell on to make a profit. If they lose out, he loses his cash.

After just 5 weeks they now know it all, are questioning his knowledge and experience and have got him really annoyed. The man has spent his whole life with antiques as a hobby and business yet they know better.

He's not my favourite personality but having been around aviation as long as he's been around antiques, I know how he feels.
 
cornish
Posts: 7651
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:05 pm

RE: Jet2.com - All Is Not Well?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 7:52 pm

Quoting Philb (Reply 50):
There's nothing wrong with working the way up a career ladder - I did the same and have employed a great number of people I've encouraged along the same path - but you need to acknowledge there are people around with a much wider knowledge and experience and when they point out you, or others, are plainly wrong, it is not to discredit but to ensure accuracy.

[quote=7LBAC111,reply=49]Maybe. Maybe not. But I am contributing to A.net in company time. This is our perogative, and for those of us in the industry, A.net can be a valuable source of information, and thus highly relevant.[/quote

Well I spent almost ten years providing the CAA, FAA, DFS, IATA, DG VII of the EU and many other bodies in aviation from airports, through airlines to manufacturers with conferences and seminars which attracted the top management, policy makers and politicians.

Absolutely agree - there is nothing wrong with people with experience pointing out what is right and wrong. That's what people are doing.

I know plenty of people who organise aviation conferences - many of them who are the first to admit they are actually clueless about the industry.

My difference is that I have spoken at Industry conferences - because people seem to think I know something about the subject. And not just small conferences either. I've also written articles for well established industry magazines (and not spotter ones) on subjects as varied as market forecasts, airline performance, airport charging and retail spending....

No I haven't become a company CEO - mainly because I don't need or want to be - I enjoy doing the analysis I do and don't want to get bogged down with management of my own company. I enjoy working in the industry itself too much.
Ever worked with the IATA annual forecasts - one of the things I used to do. Became the youngest person by far to present the results ot the world some years back. when the IATA DG would comment on the industry - he'd be using my figures.

And in IATA I would represent the airlines interests in meetings in Brussels, etc. Yes I'm only in my mid-30s, but I've packed a hell of a lot of work into my career so far. Now I'm in the private sector and advise major clients around the world. I've just finished a 15 year traffic and capacity forecast for one of the largest aviation markets in the world. Now I sit twiddling my thumbs seeing out my notice period before moving to another company I was head hunted for - a position where I will be having to advise to parliament on aviation.

So don't for one moment patronise me until you have some RELEVANT industry experience......

Really I rarely lose my rag with people - I think with Orion was the first time the other day - I prefer to have sensible intelligent debate, but PhilB you just wind everyone up with your all-knowing attitude...
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
cornish
Posts: 7651
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:05 pm

RE: Jet2.com - All Is Not Well?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 7:55 pm

Quoting Philb (Reply 55):
I wonder how many here have been watching BBC's Dealing with Dickenson where a group of people with a range of knowledge of antiques, from the almost non existent to the level of "dabblers in buying and selling" have been given £50,000 of his money to buy antiques, under his guidance, to sell on to make a profit. If they lose out, he loses his cash.

After just 5 weeks they now know it all, are questioning his knowledge and experience and have got him really annoyed. The man has spent his whole life with antiques as a hobby and business yet they know better.

He's not my favourite personality but having been around aviation as long as he's been around antiques, I know how he feels.

Not sure comapring yourself to David Dickinson is the best idea PhilB.

You'll be referring to Ryanair as a Right Bobby Dazzler next  Wink
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
PMN
Posts: 547
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2005 7:44 am

RE: Jet2.com - All Is Not Well?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 8:04 pm

Quoting Philb (Reply 52):
Welcome PMN, another young "done little" who has no respect for age, knowledge and experience

Actually your little statement couldn’t be further from the truth. Some of the people I work for, and many I work with are 55+ years of age and have tremendous knowledge and experience, and they have my total respect. However, the fact that they are incredibly decent, genuine people, who speak to others with the utmost respect regardless of whether a person is 12 or 85 years old, makes me respect them a hell of a lot more as people.

You were so quick to criticize my previous post that you didn’t realize the blindingly obvious reason why I posted it. It has nothing whatsoever to do with age, knowledge or experience. It has everything to do with the way you have displayed an impressive level of arrogance, and patronized people at every given opportunity. Arrogant and patronizing people annoy me, young or old.

As I’m sure you’ve seen in my profile I’m a sound engineer and bass player. I work with every kind of band imaginable, from young new bands who are at the very beginning of their career, to old pro’s who’ve been at it for 40 years. For the most part, the decent, polite beginner 16 year old kid gets more respect from me than the arrogant old fool who believes for some strange reason that experience, knowledge and age are the ONLY things people base respect on (that isn't intended to imply I consider you to be an arrogant old fool by any means, it just seems like an appropriate example).

By the way, what exactly are you referring to when you say ‘done little’? How exactly do you know what I’ve done, and in what fields? Please explain.

Paul
Edith in his bed, a plane in the rain is humming, the wires in the walls are humming some song - some mysterious song
 
philb
Posts: 2645
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 5:53 am

RE: Jet2.com - All Is Not Well?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 8:11 pm

Quoting Cornish (Reply 56):
I know plenty of people who organise aviation conferences - many of them who are the first to admit they are actually clueless about the industry.

Yes there are plenty about, many of them charging a great deal for poorly put together events.

Quoting Cornish (Reply 56):
So don't for one moment patronise me until you have some RELEVANT industry experience......

Where did I patronise you....and on what basis do you suppose I haven't RELEVANT industry experience?

Let's see. We provided a complete turnkey operation working with the sponsors to decide on the subject matter then researching the topics to define key areas of interest and debate.

After just a few events in the early 1990s my lack of knowledge and experience of the various areas of the industry in which we dealt was patently so vast and so self evident that the likes of the bodies I quoted approached my company (not the other way around) to organise conferences under their sponsorship, and in some cases under their name, asking for a complete package to be put together with a minimal overview. I must have known very little for them to want me to do that!!

The speaker and delegate attendances were roll calls of the most influential and senior individuals in the industry at the time.

I'm still asked to devise programmes, find speakers and run events but to run a profitable, well organised and meaningful programme takes around two years lead time per event and having decided to retire, I'm staying retired.
 
7LBAC111
Posts: 2427
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2004 9:17 am

RE: Jet2.com - All Is Not Well?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 8:13 pm

Quoting Philb (Reply 55):
What a mature, adult, professional comment

Ah, but I'm just a young upstart like the rest of 'em... remember?

Quoting Philb (Reply 55):
I notice you don't elaborate with examples on how your using A.Net during work time helps your job, or how you think your CEO would react to your constant presence here.

Actually I can. Upshot is that the CEO of my company would hardly appreciate it IF my work was suffering in detriment to this site. However, that is not the case, as A.net fits in around my workload. Despite being considerably younger than you Philb, I have already learned the art of prioritising my workload, maximising my time and delegation of the tasks that I feel other people could do better, or to be honest, that I do not want to do.

A.net does not directly help my job. It does however enable me to learn from many informed people. It further enables me to hone my admittedly limited knowledge on the analytical, financial and management sides of the industry, and allows me the opportunity of expressing my (arguably) somewhat informed opinion on the operational aspects of the industry.

Actually I was once asked what I was looking at while surfing A.net during work time by a relatively senior manager. The response was pretty much as you'd expect ... i think I was branded an anorak for a day or two (in jest).

We have a very liberal email and internet usage policy at my company, so as long as I'm not surfing hung studs or whatever, it's actually totally acceptable.

7LBAC111
Debate is what you put on de hook when you want to catch de fish.
 
irishjohn
Posts: 110
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 2:30 pm

RE: Jet2.com - All Is Not Well?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 8:22 pm

Is it not time to take a look at this thread and perhaps have a laugh or two? There is an alarming lack of respect in the messages and an equally alarming lack of manners developing.


Safe sailing
John
 
philb
Posts: 2645
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 5:53 am

RE: Jet2.com - All Is Not Well?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 8:22 pm

Quoting Cornish (Reply 56):
but PhilB you just wind everyone up with your all-knowing attitude...

If anyone on this thread has an all knowing attitude it's BestWestern

Quoting PMN (Reply 58):
It has everything to do with the way you have displayed an impressive level of arrogance, and patronized people at every given opportunity. Arrogant and patronizing people annoy me, young or old.

Then have a go at those who, because they are doing a particular job, think they know an airline has it 100% wrong and won't take any argument.

Quoting PMN (Reply 58):
you say ‘done little’? How exactly do you know what I’ve done, and in what fields? Please explain.

Apologies, should have typed "knows little" as you state yourself:

Quoting PMN (Reply 51):
I have no knowledge as to the state of the business side of Jet2,
 
7LBAC111
Posts: 2427
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2004 9:17 am

RE: Jet2.com - All Is Not Well?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 8:27 pm

Quoting Philb (Reply 62):
Then have a go at those who, because they are doing a particular job, think they know an airline has it 100% wrong and won't take any argument.

And you think you know the airline industry after 40+ years in Conferencing? Or am I missing something?

7LBAC111
Debate is what you put on de hook when you want to catch de fish.
 
PMN
Posts: 547
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2005 7:44 am

RE: Jet2.com - All Is Not Well?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 8:31 pm

Paul

Quoting Philb (Reply 62):
Apologies, should have typed "knows little" as you state yourself:

Quoting PMN (Reply 51):
I have no knowledge as to the state of the business side of Jet2,

Of what relevence is this comment? As I thought I'd stated previously in a fairly obvious way, my posts were regarding your attitude, and have nothing at all to do with Jet2 business. My only comment regarding Jet2 was that I travel fairly frequently with them, and it would be a shame to no longer see them at my home airport.

You really do need to apply a little more thought before you post petty, childish responses.

Paul
Edith in his bed, a plane in the rain is humming, the wires in the walls are humming some song - some mysterious song
 
philb
Posts: 2645
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 5:53 am

RE: Jet2.com - All Is Not Well?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 8:32 pm

7LBAC111,

Thanks for being straight and answering the point. If you can prioritise your work, if your dwelling here doesn't interfere (and old codgers like me don't wind you up too much so you become distracted) I'd be all in favour of you browsing and contributing if I were your CEO.

Welcome to the Anorak Club. What's so different and mad about an interest in aircraft? Next time find a golfer and ask him why he spends thousands in club and green fees, on equipment and clothing just to hit a ball into a hole that he often can't see along an often wet and windy strip of grass. Both hobbies are as "mad"



Quoting Cornish (Reply 57):
Not sure comapring yourself to David Dickinson is the best idea PhilB.

Wouldn't have been my first choice but it illustrates my point exactly.
 
philb
Posts: 2645
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 5:53 am

RE: Jet2.com - All Is Not Well?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 8:39 pm

Quoting 7LBAC111 (Reply 63):
And you think you know the airline industry after 40+ years in Conferencing? Or am I missing something?

Missing plenty. Airline history, in terms of operations, commercial history, company policies etc., and current management and operating practice has been a hobby of mine since around 1966.

I'm widely read on the economics of airline management and have put together a number of brain storming sessions and the odd conference for senior airline managers.
 
philb
Posts: 2645
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 5:53 am

RE: Jet2.com - All Is Not Well?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 8:46 pm

Quoting PMN (Reply 64):
You really do need to apply a little more thought before you post petty, childish responses.

.... and you need to try to understand the point that I'm making a counter argument to a set of posts from someone who wouldn't have it that he could well be wrong before you chime in, unasked, not with a contribution to the debate but with a petty, abusive and personal attack because something I've said doesn't fit your model of how you see the world.

Quoting PMN (Reply 51):
Philb, you're clearly so far lodged up your own rectum you're beyond all hope of ever coming back out
 
drinkstrolley
Posts: 484
Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 10:50 pm

RE: Jet2.com - All Is Not Well?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 8:46 pm

Quoting EGNM-LBA (Reply 30):
recently ran F27s on mail flights

I thought I saw one the other day on finals into BOH..............
 
PMN
Posts: 547
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2005 7:44 am

RE: Jet2.com - All Is Not Well?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 8:52 pm

Quoting Philb (Reply 67):

OK, having read back through this thread my initial response may have been a little un-called for, and for that I apologise. My thoughts on your general arrogance however still stand. You are not the only one who can't accept the possibility he may be wrong.

Paul
Edith in his bed, a plane in the rain is humming, the wires in the walls are humming some song - some mysterious song
 
philb
Posts: 2645
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 5:53 am

RE: Jet2.com - All Is Not Well?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 9:06 pm

PMN,

Paul, first off I accept your apology. Please don't confuse the application of experience and knowledge and a forceful way of expression as arrogance. From my point of view, BestWestern was being arrogant by applying a standard model to Jet2's circumstances without enough knowledge of why they are taking a particular course..

I don't know if he is going to be right or wrong. As I have said repeatedly, he makes some fair points to back up his argument but I know a reasonable amount about Jet2 and its parent. It is an interesting model - right across its operation - and the people who are running it have real cash, their reputations and their jobs at stake, not to mention hard experience to help them.

Managements do make glaring errors, often visible to all but themselves, but nothing in the information in this thread, or that I can find in the financial, aviation or general press indicates that BestWestern has it right.
 
cornish
Posts: 7651
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:05 pm

RE: Jet2.com - All Is Not Well?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 9:06 pm

This has got really out of hand. I think we ALL (myself included) need to take a Friday chill-pill and discuss the merits or drawbacks of low daily aircraft utilisation by Jet2 in an adult fashion.

At least for 5 minutes  Wink
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
PMN
Posts: 547
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2005 7:44 am

RE: Jet2.com - All Is Not Well?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 9:19 pm

Quoting Philb (Reply 70):
Paul, first off I accept your apology.

Thankyou. One of the things I love about A.net is seeing how people's opinions differ, and it's quite interesting when things get a little heated! I didn't intend to offend you Philb. I was simply expressing an opinion on something I feel quite strongly about, although something I share in common with every other human being on the planet is that I don't always do it in the most appropriate way.

Quoting Cornish (Reply 71):
I think we ALL (myself included) need to take a Friday chill-pill

Agreed. Enough negative comments for one day (well, one thread at least!)

Paul
Edith in his bed, a plane in the rain is humming, the wires in the walls are humming some song - some mysterious song
 
philb
Posts: 2645
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 5:53 am

RE: Jet2.com - All Is Not Well?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 9:44 pm

Paul,
Cornish,
7LBAC111

Chill pills all round then, but a chilled pils each would be better on Poets day lunchtime!
 
7LBAC111
Posts: 2427
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2004 9:17 am

RE: Jet2.com - All Is Not Well?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 9:45 pm

Quoting PMN (Reply 72):
Quoting Cornish (Reply 71):
I think we ALL (myself included) need to take a Friday chill-pill

Agreed. Enough negative comments for one day (well, one thread at least!)

Indeed. Now where IS Orion....? Big grin

7LBAC111
Debate is what you put on de hook when you want to catch de fish.
 
cornish
Posts: 7651
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:05 pm

RE: Jet2.com - All Is Not Well?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 9:50 pm

Quoting Philb (Reply 73):
Chill pills all round then, but a chilled pils each would be better on Poets day lunchtime!

Now there will certainly be no disagreement in this corner over that suggestion Phil  yummy 
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work

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