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vfw614
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Helios Crash - Interesting New Development

Wed Aug 17, 2005 8:17 pm

I decided to open up a new thread as the other one is getting long and the mystery is now heading into a somewhat new direction:

There is interesting new information available in the German media (CNN affiliate n.tv), citing the chief investigator and the Greek defense ministry who rely on the now released testimony of the F16 fighter pilots:

The jet fighter pilots took a picture of the cockpit at 1118hrs, showing the co-pilot slumped over the control panel. 30 Minutes before the crash (i.e.: 1134 hrs), two people entered the cockpit of the stricken airliner, allegedly two flight attendants, the male with pilot training, the female his fiancée. The guy's name is reported as Andreas Prodromou, 25 years old, his fiancée is said to be one Haris Charalambous. The theory at this point is that they were able to survive on portable oxygen available to F/A in the cabin. The F16 fighter pilots took a picture of what was going on in the cockpit at 1140hrs.

The aircraft then left its holding pattern 23 minutes (1141hrs) before the crash, heading in the direction of ATH. Interpretation is that the F/A switched the AP off. The aircraft descended to approx. 10.000ft and then to 2.500ft (other news say 9.000ft and 7.000ft) over the sea. At that altitude, it started heading towards ATH airport and started slowly climbing again as if the F/A noticed he was too low.

The interpretation at this point is that the aircraft ran out of fuel, only a few miles out of ATH airport, and crashed at Grammatikos.

This fits into the information that near the cockpit wreckage a female F/A - although her name is given as Louiza Vouteri - The male F/A obviously was not found there. He was allegedly a fully licenced commerical pilot who was working as a F/A because he could not find a job as a pilot (other sources say he had taken "flight lessons").


Other news:

One passenger, a five year old boy, survived the crash with severe head injuries but died from inhaling toxic fume after the crash (this according to FT Germany).

It is believed that the missing CPT is still trapped under the wreckage that has not been moved so far.

[Edited 2005-08-17 13:46:08]
 
mika
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RE: Helios Crash - Interesting New Development

Wed Aug 17, 2005 8:23 pm

What a horrific story that is..i read about the male F/A who had taken flight lessons and that his gf was a F/A on that same plane aswell. And that they crashed due to fuel starvation when heading towards ATH, that is just too tragic..


 Sad  Sad
 
Maersk737
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RE: Helios Crash - Interesting New Development

Wed Aug 17, 2005 8:24 pm

New strange information about this crash every day.

Peter
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mika
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RE: Helios Crash - Interesting New Development

Wed Aug 17, 2005 8:29 pm

http://www.aftonbladet.se/vss/nyheter/story/0,2789,686228,00.html

From swedish media, there's a photo of the two and it states that the F16 piltos had taken photos of the persons in the cockpit aswell.

Work is calling, sorry i cant translate the article right now.
 
cricket
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RE: Helios Crash - Interesting New Development

Wed Aug 17, 2005 8:36 pm

This crash is getting stranger by the day.
I guess I'll have to wait until NatGeo runs 'Air Crash Investigation' to really know what happened to the Helios plane. I know the reports will be out and will be discussed to death on this forum and others, but the NatGeo show can really illustrate the dramatic incidents well - last night they showed Avianca Flight 052.
been there, flown that
 
CV747
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RE: Helios Crash - Interesting New Development

Wed Aug 17, 2005 8:43 pm

I have a problem with this theory.
A fully licenced pilot would grab the radio and try to make contact to anyone around. Also they must have seen the F-16's and the F-16 would have noticed tried to make contact.
A APL pilot would know the emergency frequencies.

Agree?
 
Maersk737
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RE: Helios Crash - Interesting New Development

Wed Aug 17, 2005 8:46 pm

Quoting CV747 (Reply 5):
Agree?

Yes, that's why I find the information is a little strange.

Peter
I'm not proud to be a Viking, just thankfull
 
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garpd
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RE: Helios Crash - Interesting New Development

Wed Aug 17, 2005 8:49 pm

This theory so far seems to be the one that fits the information published so far.

What bad luck, so close to safety, yet so far too. Tragic... had the FA pulled this off he'd have been a hero. Hell if it turns out to be true that he did try, he's a hero nonetheless.
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philb
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RE: Helios Crash - Interesting New Development

Wed Aug 17, 2005 8:50 pm

Not necessarily. We do not know how hypoxic they were. Even with POBs they could have suffered or be suffering from disorientation and slowing of mental and physical processes and their actions on gaining the cockpit could be partially instinctive.

In the circumstances in which they found themselves it would have taken two very cool, logical and fully functioning people to have done anything in an ordered way and no amount of training as aircrew or cabin crew would overcome the psychological impact of their plight.
 
vfw614
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RE: Helios Crash - Interesting New Development

Wed Aug 17, 2005 8:51 pm

Well, it is not a theory. Pictures were taken by the F16 pilots.

I am not sure why he should concentrate on communicating. Its "aviate, navigate, communicate" even in normal circumstances with a fully trained flight deck crew. If he had switched off the AP and was on portable oxygen, he would have had enough to struggle with, with radioing around probably the last thing on his mind (in addition, for what purpose - I mean the F16 pilots were around to report what was going on to whomever it may concern - and it was quite obvious that there was a problem).
 
Maersk737
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RE: Helios Crash - Interesting New Development

Wed Aug 17, 2005 8:57 pm

If he was on portable oxygen, and it was actually working, why didn't he go to the cockpit when the troubles started?

Peter
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vfw614
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RE: Helios Crash - Interesting New Development

Wed Aug 17, 2005 9:04 pm

Maybe he could not get in before because of the security lock ?

I would guess that it took some time to alert him in the first place, probably when nothing happened and the pax oxygen was running out in the cabin.
 
ZakHH
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RE: Helios Crash - Interesting New Development

Wed Aug 17, 2005 9:15 pm

That puzzles me. The a/c was reported to have circled above the area for 25 minutes, before the AP was obviously switched off. Also, the whole incident itself (loss of cabin pressure, oxygen problems) started another ~30 minutes earlier. What has happened on board during this time? And why where 2 F/As wearing oxygen masks, while the F/O wasn't?

If these reports are true (better be careful with that), there is indeed lots of room for speculation what has happened on board of this aircraft, and why.
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iakobos
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RE: Helios Crash - Interesting New Development

Wed Aug 17, 2005 9:27 pm

The order to intercept was given at 10:55.
The two F-16 from Nea Anchialos AB (Volos) visualized the 737 at 11:15.
(this is consistent)

From 11:20 until the time of impact one of them flew in side formation with the 737, while the second remained "behind".

From about 11:30 until the time of impact, one male with white or light blue shirt and apparently blue jacket was trying to control the plane.
Just before that, he was seen moving the body of the FO with the help of a female (f/a ?).
The "pilot" did try to communicate by hands with the fighter, indicating he was trying to land the plane.
He descended to 7,000ft, then 2,500ft (over water), then climbed (probably realizing he was too low to avoid the 2-2,500ft hills.
After the hills, he would have had to perform a (90 degrees ?) left turn and
be visual on the runways towards the South.

After leaving LCA, while cleared to FL340, the pilot asked ATC to transit at FL140 to check a problem with pressurization (?).
Turkish ATC (that should be only a little bit later) reported 7700 being squawked.

If needed, the order to shoot it down would have been given, but there is evidence this has not been the case.
 
vfw614
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RE: Helios Crash - Interesting New Development

Wed Aug 17, 2005 9:31 pm

I don't see what is puzzling here:

The F16 testified that 30 minutes prior to the crash two people entered the cockpit. 23 minutes prior to the crash the aircraft left the holding pattern and started descending. They probably first attended to the F/O and removed him, then checked on the systems before they made some decisions and were probably also hampered in their actions by portable oxygen that they clearly needed at FL340. This very well explains the seven minute gap.

The data and evidence we have strongly supports the explanation:

- The fighter pilots witnessed and photographed what was going on in the cockpit.

- If the aircraft had simply run out of fuel and started gliding with a disengaged AP, it would not have lost 34.000ft altitude over a distance of just 37nm.

- If the aircraft had simply run out of fuel, why did it head exactly in the most logical direction for an emergency landing, towards Athens, near the coastline, but over the sea. With 360° avalable, the likelihood is not that big....

- If it was gliding without human input, it would have been a continous glide, not an initial descent to 10.000ft, then to 2.500ft and finally climbing again.


What needs to be explained, though, is what happened in the cabin before they entered the cockpit. As to what happened, who knows. Maybe they had to use force to get in. Probably it took them a while to be alerted, maybe they attended to pax or colleagues with portable oxygen when the pax oxygen had run out etc. etc.

[Edited 2005-08-17 14:44:05]
 
kilavoud
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RE: Helios Crash - Interesting New Development

Wed Aug 17, 2005 9:34 pm

Once the plane was at its cruising altitude, couldn't possibly a window break in the cockpit, inititating all the subsequent troubles ?

Cheers. Kilavoud.
 
mrocktor
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RE: Helios Crash - Interesting New Development

Wed Aug 17, 2005 9:38 pm

I agree that the larger mystery is what happened before they entered the cockpit. As in why it took over 20 minutes for the F/As to notice the aircraft was not descending as per standard operating procedures for depressurization.

mrocktor
 
vfw614
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RE: Helios Crash - Interesting New Development

Wed Aug 17, 2005 9:46 pm

All in all, it seems to be a very tragic situation. The F/A was obvioulsy able to control the aircraft, was heading in the correct direction, had succesfully descended to an approach altitude and was already in the vicinity of ATH airport when the aircraft, as it appears, ran out of fuel. He was however, at this point much too low, probably much to slow and no longer over water to attempt a crash landing. There is every reason to believe from his background and the actions he had taken so far that there would have been a reasonable chance that he was able to crash-land the aircraft at ATH (albeit we do not know how many of the pax would have been in a survivable condition).

Given that he was only 25miles away from ATH, for how much longer would he have needed fuel to make it to the airport ? It appears that it must have been a question of minutes - had he entered the cockpit just five minutes earlier, things might have ended differently. One can only hope that the reason for the delay in getting into the cockpit was not the security lock - if so, its first achievement would not have been to avoid a hijacking but to crash an airliner......
 
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garpd
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RE: Helios Crash - Interesting New Development

Wed Aug 17, 2005 9:47 pm

Quoting Kilavoud (Reply 15):
Once the plane was at its cruising altitude, couldn't possibly a window break in the cockpit, inititating all the subsequent troubles ?

Cheers. Kilavoud.

While that is possible, any such damage would have been spotted by the f16 pilots surely.
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iakobos
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RE: Helios Crash - Interesting New Development

Wed Aug 17, 2005 9:49 pm

From myself in another thread of yesterday.

Assuming the theoritical flight, Kea would have been reached at around 10:25 at about FL120. The air force indicates intercept at 11:08 at FL340.

Was the plane flying that slower (I think we can dismiss this one)
or
is it that it was on a preprogrammed holding pattern (dismiss ?)
or
is it that someone had been trying to control the plane for more than half an hour ?


Some time was lost (I assume) when the plane levelled off at FL140 (120 ?) to "check a problem", then resumed its climb to FL340.
It seems plausible (time and FIR-wise) that the 7700 transponder code was initiated during that climb, which could imply the pilots could have been incapacitated before reaching cruise level, and, at best climb speed, which I assume would have been kept all the way after having levelled off at 340.
This could explain the late arrival on Kea (some 40 minutes), better than someone "in control" flying in circles for that long.
 
CV990
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RE: Helios Crash - Interesting New Development

Wed Aug 17, 2005 10:03 pm

Hi!

The new information given to me makes all sense. If there were some people still alive they had to be at least a little bright. And if we look the pattern that the airplane took I accept the fact that someone INDEED was flying the airplane during a few minutes. I give my biggest applause to these two people that tried desperately to land that airplane. Unfortunately it looks that the airplane run out of fuel and my question would be, how long would be HELIOS reserve fuel? What time should the plane land at ATH? I think maybe if the plane had some more fuel maybe this tragedy could have a different ending. But of course this is just personal opinion.
Regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
iakobos
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RE: Helios Crash - Interesting New Development

Wed Aug 17, 2005 10:10 pm

CV,

STA was 10:45, ETA was about the same or even a few minutes earlier.
The plane crashed just after 12:00 (12:03 - 12:04 ?)
 
ACEregular
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RE: Helios Crash - Interesting New Development

Wed Aug 17, 2005 10:14 pm

I started a thread yestersay , mainly dealing with the delay in getting into the flightdeck. My company ask us to put ourselves on portble oxygen and await instruction which would come after the rapid descent. I just think the crew down the back were just eager to let whoever they thought was till at the controls get it down, but they may not have been aware at the time that he was knocked out and only upon the aircraft not commencing the descent and passenger oxygen running out they were alerted to try and access the flightdeck. They should not have had a problem gaining entry or having to smash the door down. Crew know what to do in this situation but it should not be discussed to openly.

I think this adequately explains the delay in seeing the FA in the flightdeck later on in the actual emergency.
 
vfw614
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RE: Helios Crash - Interesting New Development

Wed Aug 17, 2005 10:16 pm

I think the official time of the crash is given as 1204hrs.
 
cbphoto
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RE: Helios Crash - Interesting New Development

Wed Aug 17, 2005 10:18 pm

I guess we should also look at it from the point of view that had the fuel starvation happened later, and had the aircraft plunged into the heart of Athens, there surly would have been many many more fatalities. This is becoming a very interesting crash to follow, it's a pity however that it had to end with so many lives lost!
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senliture
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RE: Helios Crash - Interesting New Development

Wed Aug 17, 2005 10:18 pm

I don't understand the fuel part.
If the plane ran out of fuel, why would it cause such a fire on the hill? It doesn't look like it has no fuel onboard.
 
vfw614
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RE: Helios Crash - Interesting New Development

Wed Aug 17, 2005 10:29 pm

Well, it approached ATH (the airport) from the north and the new airport is to the east of Athens city, if memory serves. There would have been very little risk to actually end over Athens city even if the FAwould have been unable to hit the runway.
 
CV990
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RE: Helios Crash - Interesting New Development

Wed Aug 17, 2005 10:32 pm

Hi!

Well beside fuel there's is other fluids and when it start igniting, plastics and other non-metal materials will get burned quite fast. About HELIOS STA looks that the plane flew for another 1:15 minutes and that is quite enough. My question than it would, the plane stayed around ATH for that amount of time? If yes then probably those two heroes realized late that they needed to put the plane on the ground! Sad facts indeed.
Regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
iakobos
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RE: Helios Crash - Interesting New Development

Wed Aug 17, 2005 10:33 pm

Quoting Senliture (Reply 25):
If the plane ran out of fuel, why would it cause such a fire on the hill? It doesn't look like it has no fuel onboard.

We are in Greece in August. A piece of broken glass is enough to start a huge fire.

Eventhough it is not a "forrested" area, there are trees and plenty of bushes.
Add a little bit of wind and you will understand that no risk can be taken.

In an area where fire engines have difficulty accessing, planes and helicopters are used extensively, sometimes even as prevention.
 
ZakHH
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RE: Helios Crash - Interesting New Development

Wed Aug 17, 2005 10:34 pm

Quoting Senliture (Reply 25):
If the plane ran out of fuel, why would it cause such a fire on the hill? It doesn't look like it has no fuel onboard.

A simple match can cause such fires in dry bushlands. Even after running ouf fuel, an a/c should have enough flammable stuff onboard that lit up the grass and bushes at the crash site.
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vfw614
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RE: Helios Crash - Interesting New Development

Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:21 pm

The energy set free at a high speed impact certainly is sufficient to set the area in fire. The stuff that was burning was mostly very dry bushes, grass etc. and not the wreckage.
 
spacecadet
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RE: Helios Crash - Interesting New Development

Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:21 pm

Not sure if I believe this "news" or not. Let's recap some of the "news" we've heard about this crash so far:

a) A text message was widely reported as having been sent to the ground saying "Farewell, we're all frozen", now known to be a hoax

b) A report that all bodies were "frozen solid" - now known that all passengers autopsied so far were alive at the time of the crash, at least one boy survived the impact itself

c) Reports that 40 of the passengers were children, now known to be false

All of these were widely reported by reputable news sources as fact.

What we do know is that only one flight attendant's body was found in the cockpit and it was a woman, who has been identified as Louiza Vouteri. That would make sense as she was apparently the chief F/A. It sounds to me that this fiancee story is a fanciful thing that somebody either got confused or made up.

There was no male F/A found in or near the cockpit, so it doesn't seem that there's any physical evidence to suggest a male F/A was trying to fly the plane when it crashed.

Some say the testimony of the F-16 pilots has been "released" - that seems a little strange to me at this stage, and I have not seen it reported on any news site other than the one linked here. I would think that would be all over the place if true. It seems more likely that the testimony was "leaked" and this leak, like various other reports we've heard from this accident, may not be accurate.

If I start seeing this reported on more news outlets, I will probably be more inclined to believe it.
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CV747
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RE: Helios Crash - Interesting New Development

Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:23 pm

This info makes sense.
Let look at the following scenario:
(Remember that hypoxia is something that you don't feel. It happens and you pass out)

1. Aircraft has a slow decompression
Pilots put on O2. But the masks are not working. This would mean you breath the thin air and then you pass out.
2. The passengers breath through their masks which work for some time.
3. Captain tries to get get to the portable O2 bottle, but passes out in the cabin. F/A assume Co-pilot is in control.
4. F/A realise that something is not working....

Could that be the reason why the Pilot was not in the cockpit?
He would obviously not gone to the toilet after reporting depressurisation...
 
vfw614
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RE: Helios Crash - Interesting New Development

Thu Aug 18, 2005 12:00 am

Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 31):
Not sure if I believe this "news" or not.

This is from the Macedonia Press Agency, citing Greek authorities.

Quote:
Flight attendant Andreas Prodromou appears to be the one who tried unsuccessfully to land the doomed Helios Airways plane at Athens' �Eleftherios Venizelos� International Airport.

It appears according to relevant news reports on the Athens newspapers TO VIMA and Eleftheros Typos, that based on evidence gathered by the Greek authorities and information provided by the airline, Andreas Prodromou was one of the two male flight attendants on board who managed to remain conscious and tried to regain the control of the plane when he found out that the captain was not in the cockpit and the co-pilot was unconscious on his seat.

The airline informed the Greek government that Andreas Prodromou had taken pilot courses for small airplanes in Britain and had a very good picture of the airplane's flying condition.

According to press reports, the mistake made by the 25-yearold flight attendant was that he did not put on the headphones to receive instructions either by the F-16s or the control tower at �Eleftherios Venizelos�. However, he made a move that under certain conditions it could have proved to be lifesaving for the passengers. Namely, he deactivated the autopilot and tried to activate the procedure of automatic airport approach by gradually lowering the plane and cutting speed.

The F-16 pilots reported that a second individual was also present in the cockpit possibly, air stewardess Luisa Vouteri.

But it was already too late. The plane suddenly lost altitude when its fuel tanks were emptied after flying for 3 hours and a few seconds later it crashed at Grammatikos near Athens.

According to Eleftheros Typos, Charis Charalambous, Andreas Prodromou's girlfriend, was also an air stewardess and a member of the doomed airplane's crew.



Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 31):
What we do know is that only one flight attendant's body was found in the cockpit and it was a woman, who has been identified as Louiza Vouteri. That would make sense as she was apparently the chief F/A.

See above. Obviously she was the girl in the cockpit together with the male F/A.

Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 31):
It sounds to me that this fiancee story is a fanciful thing that somebody either got confused or made up.

See here:

http://www.n-tv.de/images/200508/568308_i_1124287427_1ubr4924.jpg

Picture of the couple. Reports say that the guy was not assigned to ZU522, but volunteered to go because of his girlfriend.


Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 31):
There was no male F/A found in or near the cockpit, so it doesn't seem that there's any physical evidence to suggest a male F/A was trying to fly the plane when it crashed.


With that logic, you could also argue that the plane took off without the CPT because he has not been found.

[Edited 2005-08-17 17:04:29]
 
iakobos
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RE: Helios Crash - Interesting New Development

Thu Aug 18, 2005 12:04 am

Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 31):
What we do know is that only one flight attendant's body was found in the cockpit and it was a woman, who has been identified as Louiza Vouteri.

No body was found "in the cockpit".
Two bodies were at a short distance from the front part of the a/c remains.
Since the rest of the fuselage seems to be at quite some distance, it is safe to presume that those two were indeed in the cockpit at the time of the crash.

One male, reported originally as the F/O (but likely the male who tried to control the plane), one female identified since.
 
Ruirui
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RE: Helios Crash - Interesting New Development

Thu Aug 18, 2005 1:49 am

I am still not convinced by anything I have read. But I am concerned...very concerned, because I believe a lot more facts are already known by the authorities, who if they wished could already put an end to a lot of this rumour.....now.....but only if they wished to end them.....and as we all know sometimes a smoke screen of disinformation helps those who govern or wish to govern us.

The more I read, the more my own reasoning leads me to terrorism, and that for some reason this plane was shot down or perhaps even finally flown into the ground. Perhaps there was a massive problem on board and perhaps those two F/a's were trying to bring it down safely and perhaps because they were so near Athens and succeeding someone else paniced and pulled the trigger or gave the order to shoot it down...The Greek PM left his holiday very quickly, almost too fast.... The SMS may have been a hoax, but perhaps the "hoaxer" has been arrested now...as perhaps the hoax came a little too near the truth.
Certainly he was on the right wave length with his words. Was that luck or was it meant to hoax us all?

b) were airline staff unhappy with Helios....some back lash....a grudge, a grudge which had been unsuccessful before or a suicide pact, or were these two people seen on the deck terrorists or worse still finally perceived as terrorists. Was this all planned. Was this flight doomed before it started....either it crashed into Athens or ended up shot down...Perhaps the innocents on board had their fate sealed when the door was shut.

I have already been flamed for bringing up the terrorist aspect. I dare say I will be flamed again, but what we know already is only the tip of the iceberg and I am sure a lot of information for one reason or another is being witheld and not just from the investigators. There is too much cover up already. This whole matter stinks.....its rotten. I am not worried about sitting in the next 737-300 or any other aircraft. If the Greek and Cypriot governments are really interested in their tourist trade and those flying over Greece and moreover their people, then I think they need to nail a few of these rumours now and not with words but also facts. Lets here the transcripts between the military and ATC, lets here it all. If we hear it, we will know more of what is the truth, unless that information has been got at too already. Where is the flight recorder...is it damaged, or did it disappear, was it tampered with. Is it still not found or is it in Paris or en route to Paris....If the Greek PM was so interested in paying his repsects, let us all have some clear statements from this Government now. Or are they trying to pull the wool over our eyes?

The scenario given above in this thread from German sources...is intresting but it is too romantic. It is what we would all perhaps like to read and believe. I never subscribed to the fuel tank theory about TW800, and I think some of the theories, also my own may well be off course too, but it is my strong opinion this is not purely a matter of malfunction or a series of events due malfunction. There is some dark human involvement here. Air crashes do not usually make me nervous...as there is so often a clear reason.....but this matter has a bad feeling about it......and I believe one day we will realise that these poor people did not die because of some error, some bad design from which we can learn, but more likely because of some person's sordid and misplaced desire.

I have no wish to inflame opinion but I think in this politically correct world, too many of us are pussyfooting around the more unpleasant possibilities, for fear of offending.
 
vfw614
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RE: Helios Crash - Interesting New Development

Thu Aug 18, 2005 2:08 am

OK, let's get this straight - I quoted a German source because it was the first I came across. But it is not something just a German tabloid is reporting, but has been widely reported.

The source is the Greek chief investigator Akrivos Tsolakis, who was passing on information he had received from the Greek Air Force, some of it as a result of the F16 pilots being de-briefed.
 
semsem
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RE: Helios Crash - Interesting New Development

Thu Aug 18, 2005 2:10 am

Apparently the co pilot had a Diary of all his flights and he had told his son that if the truth about this airline were known, it would be shut down.

This airline is similar to Flash and Western Carribean; small outfits with just a few planes. Better to stick with flying with the bigger carriers in my opinion.
 
CV747
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RE: Helios Crash - Interesting New Development

Thu Aug 18, 2005 2:15 am

Quoting Ruirui (Reply 35):
Where is the flight recorder...is it damaged, or did it disappear, was it tampered with. Is it still not found or is it in Paris or en route to Paris...

It was in the papers today that the FDR left for Paris today and that the VDR was badly damaged and that only the cover had been found. The mechanism has not turned up.

I think you are too pesemistic. I don't believe it was shot down. The Greeks have a heavy military history. Information is not shared openly. It's not their culture. On the point the PM left his holiday. I assure you if a 737 would crash in the in UK, Blair would leave his holls and play the media. Same in any other country. I'm sure.

Sometimes the truth is much simpler then the obvious!
If you want to point at a plot. Have a look at the BBC News web site on the killing of the Brasilian in the tube. That smells like cover-up.

Olafur
 
EighteenNine
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RE: Helios Crash - Interesting New Development

Thu Aug 18, 2005 2:23 am

Quoting Semsem (Reply 37):
This airline is similar to Flash and Western Carribean; small outfits with just a few planes. Better to stick with flying with the bigger carriers in my opinion.

Hmm, like AirFrance??
 
kappel
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RE: Helios Crash - Interesting New Development

Thu Aug 18, 2005 2:44 am

Quoting CV747 (Reply 38):
That smells like cover-up.

You mean it reeks of it, badly...

Not only did this guy die a meningless death, they also try to discredit him. Whoever made that story up should go to jail!!

Anyway, back to the topic at hand

Is it possible that the CVR was not on board at all, but just the casing?

I personally am not ready to believe it was terrorism, but I guess we can't rule anything out until the Cockpit Voice Recorder has been found and listened to.
L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
 
kaneporta1
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RE: Helios Crash - Interesting New Development

Thu Aug 18, 2005 3:01 am

One thing that puzzles me is that in the tail section photos, it is clear that the horizontal stabilizers were in the full down position when the aircraft crashed. Any ideas why was that?

I'd rather die peacefully in my sleep, like my grandfather, not terrified and screaming, like his passengers
 
jush
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RE: Helios Crash - Interesting New Development

Thu Aug 18, 2005 3:14 am

How on earth can you assume that they didn't turn that way after crash after no hydraulic pressure anymore.
That sounds rather logical to me. Assuming that they were in full down before in flight is rubbish.
There is one problem with airbus. Though their products are engineering marvels they lack passion, completely.
 
kaneporta1
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RE: Helios Crash - Interesting New Development

Thu Aug 18, 2005 5:29 am

I assume they didn't turn that way "after crash, after no hydraulic pressure" because the horizontal stabilizer of the 737, 757 and 767 is mechanically operated and has nothing to do with hydraulics:



Product Description:
The 737, 757, and 767 HSTAs are linear mechanical ball screw actuators driven by electric motors. Redundancy is provided in the drive train and gearing. Mechanical brakes and safety rods provide fail safe protection. The 737 actuator transmits a limit load of up to 25,000 pounds.
I'd rather die peacefully in my sleep, like my grandfather, not terrified and screaming, like his passengers
 
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garpd
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RE: Helios Crash - Interesting New Development

Thu Aug 18, 2005 5:35 am

Quoting Semsem (Reply 37):
Apparently the co pilot had a Diary of all his flights and he had told his son that if the truth about this airline were known, it would be shut down.

This airline is similar to Flash and Western Carribean; small outfits with just a few planes. Better to stick with flying with the bigger carriers in my opinion.

Your source for this please?

Also, good luck with sticking to the big airlines, what a stupid idea.
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Flyawa
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RE: Helios Crash - Interesting New Development

Thu Aug 18, 2005 5:35 am

In response to the theories posted by Ruirui in reply #35,

I find them interesting and plausible. Most crash investigations end up as pilot error, rather than technical, so, a possible suicide is of concern. Although I do not know captain's background or the check systems in-place at Helios, all airlines have programs that constantly manage and monitor flight crew mental stability on the flight deck. We are all human, with the challenges of life, home, and family, and who knows what stresses or pressures he was dealing with. Never forget EgyptAir. May their souls rest in peace.
Better than most, not as good as some.
 
ClearedDirect
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RE: Helios Crash - Interesting New Development

Thu Aug 18, 2005 5:42 am

Well I guess the "film" will be something very much sought after - if it is ever released.

http://news.airwise.com/story/view/1124197864.html

of note from the story...

"Coroner Koutsaftis said the co-pilot and a stewardess were found about a metre apart under the plane's cockpit. The Ethnos newspaper had reported earlier on Tuesday that the pilots of two F-16 jets sent to investigate the Helios flight had captured video footage of a female flight attendant trying to take control of the plane, while the co-pilot was slumped in his seat and the pilot out of sight."


CD
 
qwerty
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RE: Helios Crash - Interesting New Development

Thu Aug 18, 2005 5:46 am

Quoting Vfw614 (Thread starter):
This fits into the information that near the cockpit wreckage a female F/A - although her name is given as Louiza Vouteri - The male F/A obviously was not found there. He was allegedly a fully licenced commerical pilot who was working as a F/A because he could not find a job as a pilot (other sources say he had taken "flight lessons").

I don't buy it. Here's why:

- Any trained pilot will realize that losing altitude was of paramount importance. If the flight-trained male F/A realized this, he would have been in the cockpit hours earlier and descended. Then he would have tried to revive the crew. He never would have waited until on bottle #3 or #4 to gain access.

- Assume the story about trying to land is correct. Yes he would likely have not used radios or tried to declare an emergency, but he would have tried to physically contact the F16 drivers to show distress. He would have looked around and scanned the horizon if trained as a pilot and discovered fighters. If they could see him, as reported, he could have seen them. That information would not have been left out of the F16 driver reports.

Radar data will show the true flight path, so this will be answered.

??? I haven't followed the flight path thread closely nor do I know this airspace, but isn't the report of the crash site very close to a missed approach hold?
 
vfw614
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RE: Helios Crash - Interesting New Development

Thu Aug 18, 2005 5:55 am

Quoting Qwerty (Reply 47):
Any trained pilot will realize that losing altitude was of paramount importance. If the flight-trained male F/A realized this, he would have been in the cockpit hours earlier and descended

As it appears, he only had a PPL and was hoping to become a commercial pilot. It is always easy to judge from an armchair what he should have done with a cool mind. We don't know what was going on in the cabin. In the first place, the F/A was there for the safety of the pax.

Quoting Qwerty (Reply 47):
He would have looked around and scanned the horizon if trained as a pilot and discovered fighters. If they could see him, as reported, he could have seen them. That information would not have been left out of the F16 driver reports

That's exactly what he did, according to the reports - he gave signals to the fighter pilots.

Quoting Qwerty (Reply 47):
I haven't followed the flight path thread closely nor do I know this airspace, but isn't the report of the crash site very close to a missed approach hold?

As said above, the Kea hold is 37nm southeast from the crash site.

Quoting Qwerty (Reply 47):
Radar data will show the true flight path, so this will be answered.

The flight path is more or less known. No secret about it. Went down from 34.000 down to 10.000, then to 7.000, then to 2.500 when it turned to the west, obviously preparing for a 90° turn to get aligned to ATH runway. It climbed again because of the moutainous terrain it was approaching and then crashed.
 
jaysit
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RE: Helios Crash - Interesting New Development

Thu Aug 18, 2005 6:09 am

Does anyone know at what angle the 733 hit terrain?

Clearly it wasn't head on, as reports state that the bodies of both the female FA and the copilot were found in the wreckage of the flight deck.
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