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CV747
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RR Having Massiv Problems With Their 747 RB-211?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 9:22 pm

I heard through the grapewine that the 747 operators unsing the RB-211 are having massiv engine problems. The situation is supposed to be so bad that the engine pool is out of spare engines and the repair slots are booked for long time. Some of the operators could even face grounding.

Has anyone heard this before?
 
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ClassicLover
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RE: RR Having Massiv Problems With Their 747 RB-211?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 9:26 pm

No, but would this be why the QF 743 at AVV is engineless and out of service, when all prior reports said the aircraft would be upgraded and returned to service like the rest of the fleet?

Speculation.

Trent.
I do enjoy a spot of flying, especially when it's not in economy!
 
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ZSOFN
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RE: RR Having Massiv Problems With Their 747 RB-211?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 9:34 pm

News to me. Does BA have any problems with its 57 RR-equipped 744s and 13 752s? Heard somewhere (probably here) that CX had a few problems, or was that with its Trent T7s?
 
CV747
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RE: RR Having Massiv Problems With Their 747 RB-211?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 9:36 pm

Apparently does the problem not concern the 757. Only the 747.
 
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ZSOFN
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RE: RR Having Massiv Problems With Their 747 RB-211?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 9:38 pm

So just the -524Gs or -Hs or both?
 
CV747
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RE: RR Having Massiv Problems With Their 747 RB-211?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 9:42 pm

Which engines does CV use?
 
MD88Captain
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RE: RR Having Massiv Problems With Their 747 RB-211?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 9:48 pm

No surprise to me. DAL in the last years of their L1011 use had few or no spare engines. Parts were hard to come by and spare engines were very scarce. Now I would suspect that the RB211 pool of spare engines and parts is even smaller.
 
CV747
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RE: RR Having Massiv Problems With Their 747 RB-211?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 9:49 pm

 
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ClassicLover
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RE: RR Having Massiv Problems With Their 747 RB-211?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 9:52 pm

Quoting MD88Captain (Reply 6):
No surprise to me. DAL in the last years of their L1011 use had few or no spare engines. Parts were hard to come by and spare engines were very scarce. Now I would suspect that the RB211 pool of spare engines and parts is even smaller.

That was specifically for the -22B version of the engine, that was only on the Tristar.

The engines that power 747s are RB211s but of a different variant.

Trent.
I do enjoy a spot of flying, especially when it's not in economy!
 
GDB
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RE: RR Having Massiv Problems With Their 747 RB-21

Thu Aug 18, 2005 10:27 pm

The only problems BA had, last year, was of their own making, selling off their engine overhaul facility in Wales in 1991, to GE, part of the soon to be regretted deal to put GE90's on BA's 777's.

As the years went by, quality from this facility declined, (we found this on Olympus engines, luckily one was not stuck on an aircraft and taken out for an engine run, without a lot of extra checks. At one point in Wales, they had a scheme where the team who most quickly reassembled an engine were rewarded, great, shame that the Olympus we received from a 'winning team' was incomplete).

Last year, this once superb facility managed to get itself shut down for a time, due contamination of oil, causing huge problems for BA last summer.
 
CX Flyboy
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RE: RR Having Massiv Problems With Their 747 RB-211?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 11:15 pm

I've definately not heard anything about us having problems on any of the 4 RR types we operate!
 
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ZSOFN
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RE: RR Having Massiv Problems With Their 747 RB-211?

Thu Aug 18, 2005 11:45 pm

CV747, any chance of being more specific about where you heard this from?

Not disgarding what you're saying at all, just want to try and pin these complaints down to an airline or situation.

Cheers
 
kaitak744
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RE: RR Having Massiv Problems With Their 747 RB-211?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 2:39 am

Well, this is slightly off topic, but have any of you people noticed that the carriers who chose RR for their 747s ONLY chose them because of political reasons?

Rolls Royce is British.

South African
Qantas
Air New Zealand
^^ Old British colonies

Cathay Pacfic
^^ was British when they made the engine choice

British Airways
^^ is British

Did I miss any?
 
GDB
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RE: RR Having Massiv Problems With Their 747 RB-211?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 2:56 am

So why not Air India, Air Canada, PIA, and best of all, VS?

Utter nonsense, if that was even slightly true, R/R would be the lead engine, or pretty close to, on the 744, given how big the British Empire was.
 
cloudyapple
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RE: RR Having Massiv Problems With Their 747 RB-211?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 3:02 am

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 12):
Cathay Pacfic
^^ was British when they made the engine choice

Still very British - just under 50% owned by John Swire & Sons, hq'ed in London but operates mostly in Hong Kong/SE Asia.
A310/A319/20/21/A332/3/A343/6/A388/B732/5/7/8/B742/S/4/B752/B763/B772/3/W/E145/J41/MD11/83/90
 
atmx2000
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RE: RR Having Massiv Problems With Their 747 RB-211?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 3:08 am

Quoting GDB (Reply 13):
So why not Air India, Air Canada, PIA, and best of all, VS?

How about state owned carriers in former British colonies that are currently or formerly Caucasian dominated but are not physically close to the US tend to choose RR?
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
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garpd
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RE: RR Having Massiv Problems With Their 747 RB-21

Fri Aug 19, 2005 3:09 am

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 12):
Well, this is slightly off topic, but have any of you people noticed that the carriers who chose RR for their 747s ONLY chose them because of political reasons?

Rolls Royce is British.

South African
Qantas
Air New Zealand
^^ Old British colonies

Cathay Pacfic
^^ was British when they made the engine choice

British Airways
^^ is British

Did I miss any?

Poppycock, absolute poppycock.

The RRs are good for Hot and High and deliver phenominal power and reliability.
The airlines that use RRs on their 747s often do so either because:
A) They already use RR on other fleet models
B) They operate to hot and high fields
c) Both

Most of the time its both.

As for the idea that there are "massive" problems with RRs... what a load of crap. The odd engine going u/s ballooned out of all proportion... I wonder if the thread starter is a member of the Media.

[Edited 2005-08-18 20:11:11]
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MD88Captain
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RE: RR Having Massiv Problems With Their 747 RB-211?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 3:11 am

DAL flew two different versions on the RB- 211. The bigger thrust version the -524 (I believe) was more parts scarce than the lower thrust version of the same engine.
 
gigneil
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RE: RR Having Massiv Problems With Their 747 RB-211?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 3:16 am

Quoting GARPD (Reply 16):
The RRs are good for Hot and High and deliver phenominal power and reliability.

The RB.211 on the 747 is the least powerful and reliable variant for the airframe, hence being a distant 3rd in sales.

Now as far as the 757 is concerned, you're quite correct.

N
 
aa777jr
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RE: RR Having Massiv Problems With Their 747 RB-211?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 3:18 am

All those BA 747s that flew with only 3 engines...where they using this?

Regards.
A liberal is a man who is right most of the time, but he's right too soon.
 
isitsafenow
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RE: RR Having Massiv Problems With Their 747 RB-211?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 3:21 am

Post one gave us the problem. Here's the solution.

Hang four Pratts under the wings. That ought to clear up the trouble.
safe  tongue 
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
 
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garpd
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RE: RR Having Massiv Problems With Their 747 RB-21

Fri Aug 19, 2005 3:22 am

Quoting Aa777jr (Reply 19):
All those BA 747s that flew with only 3 engines...where they using this?

Regards.

All those? It was ONE, UNO, EINS, 1, One less than Two. ONE.

[Edited 2005-08-18 20:28:22]
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gigneil
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RE: RR Having Massiv Problems With Their 747 RB-211?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 3:24 am

Quoting GARPD (Reply 21):
All those? It was ONE, UNO, EINS, 1, One less than Two. ONE.

Negative. It was more than one.

Quoting GARPD (Reply 21):
Source for this please.

You can go compare the engine thrust available from the three manufacturers, as well as the relative sales of the engines yourself.  Smile

N
 
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garpd
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RE: RR Having Massiv Problems With Their 747 RB-211?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 3:28 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 22):
Negative. It was more than one.

Source for this also
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clickhappy
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RE: RR Having Massiv Problems With Their 747 RB-211?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 3:31 am

http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/03/08/news/faa.php

On Feb. 25, six days later, the same 747 flew 11 hours on three engines when an engine gave out on a flight from Singapore to London.
 
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garpd
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RE: RR Having Massiv Problems With Their 747 RB-21

Fri Aug 19, 2005 3:34 am

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 24):
http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/03/08/news/faa.php

On Feb. 25, six days later, the same 747 flew 11 hours on three engines when an engine gave out on a flight from Singapore to London.

Interesting. Cheers.

BA should never have sold off their maintenance facility in Wales. I think that is the root cause for all of BA's engine issues.
I still say that claims of massive problems with RR engines is totaly rubbish.

[Edited 2005-08-18 20:35:08]
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USAF336TFS
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RE: RR Having Massiv Problems With Their 747 RB-211?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 4:29 am

Quoting GARPD (Reply 25):
BA should never have sold off their maintenance facility in Wales. I think that is the root cause for all of BA's engine issues.

The only place I hear this is on a.net, although, I'll admit, it may or may not be true. Earlier in this post, someone claimed that BA regretted buying their 777s with GE 90s. Again, this is the only forum where I've read a rumour like this. Most of the stuff I read says just the opposite... The GE-90 is a very reliable powerplant.
336th Tactical Fighter Squadron, 4th Fighter Wing, Seymour Johnson AFB
 
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ZSOFN
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RE: RR Having Massiv Problems With Their 747 RB-211?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 4:40 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 18):
The RB.211 on the 747 is the least powerful and reliable variant for the airframe, hence being a distant 3rd in sales

According to my trusty "Modern Commercial Aircraft" book:

GE CF6: 252kN
PW4056: 252kN
RB211-524H: 258kN
 
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garpd
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RE: RR Having Massiv Problems With Their 747 RB-211?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 4:46 am

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 26):
The GE-90 is a very reliable powerplant.

Granted.

The problem was with the pissy attitude GE had toward BA soon after the acquisition of the maintenance facility.
Hence why Boeing orded RR Trents for their second batch of 777s.
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AirbusA6
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RE: RR Having Massiv Problems With Their 747 RB-211?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 5:13 am

I've always thought BA got it back to front with their 767s and 777s.

By choosing RR on the 767, they got commonality with their 747s, but ended up with a (virtually) unique combination, and hence an aircraft difficult to sell on.

Conversely, the most popular (and arguably best) engine on the original 777s is the RR Trent, and they chose GE instead (the least favourite engine!)

The final RB211s on the 747 and 767 were right at their thrust limit, and a bit noisy too?
it's the bus to stansted (now renamed National Express a6 to ruin my username)
 
N1120A
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RE: RR Having Massiv Problems With Their 747 RB-211?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 5:37 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 18):
The RB.211 on the 747 is the least powerful and reliable variant for the airframe



Quoting ZSOFN (Reply 27):
According to my trusty "Modern Commercial Aircraft" book:

GE CF6: 252kN
PW4056: 252kN
RB211-524H: 258kN

You are both right. The RB211 puts out more thrust than the earlier CF6's and definately more than the PW4056, however, it does not put out as much as the newer 62-63,000 pound CF6's and PW4062
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
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ZSOFN
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RE: RR Having Massiv Problems With Their 747 RB-211?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 5:38 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 30):
however, it does not put out as much as the newer 62-63,000 pound CF6's and PW4062

I wasn't aware of these newer variants. When were they introduced, and who uses them? Or have they replaced all the previous versions?
 
TEAtheB
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RE: RR Having Massiv Problems With Their 747 RB-211?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 5:49 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 18):
The RB.211 on the 747 is the least powerful and reliable variant for the airframe

What's your source for the "reliability" part of this?
 
SA7700
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RE: RR Having Massiv Problems With Their 747 RB-211?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 5:50 am

Doesn't SA have a mix of engines on their B744 fleet? IIRC ZS-SBK & ZS-SBS were destined for PR, but were never delivered due to the Asian economic crisis in the 90's.

Is there a website available where one can check specific airplane (as per airline) engine info? Admittedly, I know nothing about aircraft engines and would like to be able to distinguish between RR, GE, etc. (SA & QF B744 fleets for instance).

Anybody out there who can be of assistance?


Rgds

SA7700
When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
 
TEAtheB
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RE: RR Having Massiv Problems With Their 747 RB-21

Fri Aug 19, 2005 5:56 am

Quoting ZSOFN (Reply 27):
RB211-524H: 258kN

You've quoted the thrust of the RB211-524G engine i.e. 58,000lb (258kN).

The RB211-524H engine is rated higher at 60,600 lb (270kN)
 
N1120A
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RE: RR Having Massiv Problems With Their 747 RB-211?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 5:59 am

Quoting TEAtheB (Reply 34):
Quoting ZSOFN (Reply 27):
RB211-524H: 258kN

You've quoted the thrust of the RB211-524G engine i.e. 58,000lb (258kN).

The RB211-524H engine is rated higher at 60,600 lb (270kN)

According to Boeing, the RB211-524H is rated to 59,500 lb (264.67 kn)
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
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garpd
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RE: RR Having Massiv Problems With Their 747 RB-21

Fri Aug 19, 2005 6:05 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 22):
You can go compare the engine thrust available from the three manufacturers, as well as the relative sales of the engines yourself.

I meant the reliabilty side. All my mech buddies tell me the RB211 is more reliable thanthe GE and PW engines on the 744 and 757

[Edited 2005-08-18 23:06:39]
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TEAtheB
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RE: RR Having Massiv Problems With Their 747 RB-21

Fri Aug 19, 2005 6:11 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 35):
According to Boeing, the RB211-524H is rated to 59,500 lb (264.67 kn)

Check out
http://www.rolls-royce.com/civil_aer...ts/airlines/rb211524/technical.jsp

These guys should know. Unable to explain the discrepancy between Rolls-Royce and Boeing though. Maybe operators might de-rate their enigines according to the routes/payloads they operate, but I doubt that explains it.
 
kaitak744
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RE: RR Having Massiv Problems With Their 747 RB-211?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 6:59 am

Ok, sorry about reply 12. It was my gut feeling, but apparently I was wrong.

Pratt & Whitney PW4062
63,300 lb (281.57 kN)

Rolls-Royce RB211-524H2-T
59,500 lb (264.67 kN)

General Electric CF6-80C2B5F
62,100 lb (276.23 kN)

And, about the engines,^^ the Rolls Royce RB211-534H2-T is the quietest of the 3. The PW is the most powerfull, and the GE, (I am pretty sure) is the most fuel efficient.

[Edited 2005-08-19 00:01:27]
 
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ZSOFN
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RE: RR Having Massiv Problems With Their 747 RB-211?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 8:11 am

Quoting SA7700 (Reply 33):
Anybody out there who can be of assistance?

I wrote a response in a thread a while back about identifying these engines - take a look:
RE: Engine Difference... (by ZSOFN Jul 1 2005 in Civil Aviation)

Specifically on 744s:

RR:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Carlos Borda
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Julian Whitelaw



GE:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Dean Barnes
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Red-Phoenix AirPics



PW (Similar to GE):

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Søren Geertsen
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Grahame Hutchison



And just to throw a spanner in the works, the older RB211s as found on 747 classics & the early 757s, as well as L1011s and this crazy VC-10, all with semi-full cowlings:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Medolago Manuel
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Graham Dives

 
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garpd
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RE: RR Having Massiv Problems With Their 747 RB-211?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 8:18 am

Quoting ZSOFN (Reply 39):
And just to throw a spanner in the works, the older RB211s as found on 747 classics & the early 757s, as well as L1011s and this crazy VC-10, all with semi-full cowlings:

The Crazy VC-10 was the testbed for the RB-211 during its infancy.
Amazing when you see that one RB-211 can take the place of two RR Avon engines.

Also, the shorter cowling had something to do with the thrust the engine produced. The later versions of the RB211 produce much more power and I think part of it is due to a new exhaust cowling. Which also allows for a quieter engine.
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David L
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RE: RR Having Massiv Problems With Their 747 RB-211?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 8:31 am

Quoting GARPD (Reply 40):
one RB-211 can take the place of two RR Avon engines

Conways?

Mr. Pedantic, signing off for the night.  Smile
 
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garpd
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RE: RR Having Massiv Problems With Their 747 RB-211?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 8:34 am

Quoting David L (Reply 41):
Conways?

Of course... tis late  Yeah sure
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Gasman
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RE: RR Having Massiv Problems With Their 747 RB-211?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 9:53 am

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 12):
Well, this is slightly off topic, but have any of you people noticed that the carriers who chose RR for their 747s ONLY chose them because of political reasons?

Rolls Royce is British.

South African
Qantas
Air New Zealand



Quoting GDB (Reply 13):
Utter nonsense, if that was even slightly true, R/R would be the lead engine, or pretty close to, on the 744, given how big the British Empire was.

Umm............ I'm not aware of it happening during the last 15 years, but certainly in days gone by this ex-colony of Britian has faced significant political pressure to buy British aviation products - the RB2-11 "engines for butter" deal of the 1980s is but one example.
 
CX Flyboy
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RE: RR Having Massiv Problems With Their 747 RB-211?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 11:23 am

Performance figures from the two 'new' P&W4056 engined 744s in our fleet is that they are doing very well, and when it comes to fuel burn stats, they are doing better than our own RR fleet. They have to wait a while to see what the maintenance numbers are going to be like, but some people are already wondering why we ever bought RR in th first place (yes yes....politics I know!)
 
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VirginFlyer
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RE: RR Having Massiv Problems With Their 747 RB-211?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 12:09 pm

Can we please have some sort of clarification on the original issue here. Is there anything to back it up, or is it just a rumour?

V/F
It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens. —Bahá'u'lláh
 
eg777er
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RE: RR Having Massiv Problems With Their 747 RB-211?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 12:55 pm

CXflyboy, Peter Sutch once said, the key to airline success was to buy an American aircraft, hang Rollers on the wings and paint the tail green.

Seems to have worked well so far.  Wink
 
GQfluffy
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RE: RR Having Massiv Problems With Their 747 RB-211?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 1:00 pm

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 26):
Earlier in this post, someone claimed that BA regretted buying their 777s with GE 90s. Again, this is the only forum where I've read a rumour like this

BA regretted the choice of GE 90s on the 772(A?). It really wasn't a great engine when it first came out, and BA was the lucky airline that received most of the teething problems. You got to remember the GE-90 was unbelievable when it first came out. And in this industry, when you're pushing the envelope of design, size, power, and innovation, things can, and most often do, go wrong. GE eventually fixed every problem and the 90 turned into a great engine. Hence it being selected as the sole engine on the 772LR.

It reminds me of the JT9D on the 747-100s. The first batch of engines gave Boeing major headaches, but PW eventually got the kinks worked out and it evolved into a successful engine.

fluffy
This isn't where I parked my car...
 
henny
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RE: RR Having Massiv Problems With Their 747 RB-21

Fri Aug 19, 2005 3:49 pm

Quoting ZSOFN (Reply 27):
Quoting Gigneil (Reply 18):
The RB.211 on the 747 is the least powerful and reliable variant for the airframe, hence being a distant 3rd in sales

Fact: The RB211 is the most reliable engine on the planet.

(OK, OK, in its -535E4 variant Big grin)

Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 47):
...Hence it being selected as the sole engine on the 772LR.

Performance/reliability/emissions has sod-all to do with it.

Throw us a bone here - if you guys can throw in the "RB211 was selected due to the empire..." nonsense, it's sure as hell plausible to suggest that the latest rendition of the GE90 was selected purely due to it being an American engine, built by a tens of hundred-strong American labour force.
3, 2, 1... Now!
 
CV747
Topic Author
Posts: 166
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RE: RR Having Massiv Problems With Their 747 RB-211?

Fri Aug 19, 2005 5:43 pm

Quoting ZSOFN (Reply 11):
CV747, any chance of being more specific about where you heard this from?

Not disgarding what you're saying at all, just want to try and pin these complaints down to an airline or situation.

Cheers



Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 12):
Well, this is slightly off topic, but have any of you people noticed that the carriers who chose RR for their 747s ONLY chose them because of political reasons?

Rolls Royce is British.

South African
Qantas
Air New Zealand
^^ Old British colonies

Cathay Pacfic
^^ was British when they made the engine choice

British Airways
^^ is British

Did I miss any?

Yes, You missed Cargolux.
they choses the RR because they burn less fuel and are supposed to be more efficient. Cargolux seems to have problems with the engines. It's even gone so far that the mechanics nick name the RR = Rotating Rubish...

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