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sndp
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AF To Announce Order B777-300ER

Thu May 04, 2000 2:27 pm

According to a AF employee yesterday in the chat box, AF is about to announce an order for B777-300ER. This means that this A340 customer has not made the choice for the A340-600.
sndp
 
Hamlet69
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RE: AF To Announce Order B777-300ER

Thu May 04, 2000 2:37 pm

I think you'll see that this was inevitable. According to my sources at Boeing, AF is EXTREMELY happy with their 777s. If you look at their past 300+ seat order history, you notice an interesting trend: When the A340 was launched, the French flag carrier was quick to sign up. By 1996, orders totaled @ 18 (by this time, AF had incorporated UTA which had orders for 7). In addition, they had signed lease contracts for an additional 3. When AF was partially privatized, they ordered 10 777-200ERs. They have since ordered 4 more (2 unidentified) as well as leasing 5 extras from ILFC. During this time period (1996-2000) they have signed one additional lease contract for the A340. So in 1995, it looked like this:

A340 = 21
777 = 0

Now, it looks like this:

A340 = 22
777 = 19 + additional 773LR orders.

Don't get me wrong. I'm am not taking anything away from the A340. I'm just saying that Air France seems to prefer the 777. Also, they are one carrier who would have no problem with GE being sole supplier, as their current 777 fleet are GE's anyway.

Hamlet69

All gave some. Some gave all.
 
Guest

RE: AF To Announce Order B777-300ER

Thu May 04, 2000 8:25 pm

Air France prefers having all of it's aircraft GE or CFM powered for economical reasons which is a good idea.
 
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sammyk
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RE: AF To Announce Order B777-300ER

Thu May 04, 2000 8:46 pm

They also prefer it for political reasons oddly enough. Anything Snecma is involved with they will buy.

Sammy
 
CX747
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RE: AF To Announce Order B777-300ER

Thu May 04, 2000 11:33 pm

I assume that the 777-300ERs will replace the 747-200s. As Hamlet69 said AF's long-haul widebody purchases have been very interesting to watch. First their was a preference for the A340-200/300 but over the past 2-3 years as the carrier has been privatized their has been more of an interest in the 777s. In fact if my memory serves me correct they opted to take 777-200ERs over their remaining 767-300ER and 747-400 options.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
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Sammyk

Thu May 04, 2000 11:37 pm

Hi Sammy, you are correct about AF going for GE & CFM for political reasons. I can see other airlines going for the 777X if they already have GE90 777s in their fleet so GE would be the sole supplier. Won't this be a problem for others who have 777s with P&W or Rolls Royce engines who prefer these engines instead the GE90 on the 777X?
 
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sammyk
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RE: AF To Announce Order B777-300ER

Thu May 04, 2000 11:55 pm

Tedski, I suppose it would be a minor headache for those not already in the GE camp. To solve this, GE must be giving good deals on price and maintenance to ease these airlines' worries. It seemed to work for JAL, and will probably work for others. After all, the competion is RR only powered so far, so what do the PW (such as United) customers do, they basically get screwed at both ends. Besides, any offering from RR or PW for the 777X would not be as common as the engines offered on the current 777s. GE would have the most common engine to the current 777 models. So keeping type commonality probably wins over engine commonality.

Sammy
 
ual747-600
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Tedski

Fri May 05, 2000 2:39 am

I don't think the 777x engine thing is that big a deal. After all, are current A340-200/300 operators with CFM's angry that they have to buy RR powered A340-500/600's as it is the only engine being offered on those models????
 
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UAL747-600

Fri May 05, 2000 3:23 am

It is because they are only offering the RR Trent on the new A340-500/600 that Air France is going for the 777-300ER with the GE90.
 
ual747-600
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RE: UAL747-600

Fri May 05, 2000 3:33 am

This may be your opinion but the fact of the matter is that they like to better economics of the 300ER on the routes they intend to fly. There was a recent article in either flight or Aviation Week about this.

UAL747-600
 
Guest

UAL747-600

Fri May 05, 2000 4:07 am

What is your opinion on possibly United going for the 777X? I know they are a BIG P&W customer with all of their aircraft except the DC-10s, CRJs, & 737-300/500s. Do you think they will go for the GE90?
 
Guest

First 777 Flight

Fri May 05, 2000 6:36 am

Just found out that on my return flight home from MCO to ATL, Delta has changed aircraft from a 767-300 to a 777-200! This will be my first flight on the 777 and I am very much looking forward to it! Have any of you ever flown on it? Read it has a range of 7,000 miles with 2 RR Trent 800s each having 92,000lbs thrust!
 
sv11
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RE: AF To Announce Order B777-300ER

Fri May 05, 2000 11:15 am

Is AF ordering 777-300 ER because
1. they have options expiring on other aircraft which will cost them a bundle, so they are converting to the 777-300ER. I thought AF ordered 777 because their options for 767, 737 were expiring and they would have lost a bundle.
2. Is it because of commonality with current GE90s?
3. Is it because the AF perceives the 777-300ER as a better aircraft than the A340-600?

If it is number 3, that would be big vote of confidence in the 777-300ER. Maybe they will order the A340-600 as well.

sv11.
 
Ruscoe
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RE: AF To Announce Order B777-300ER

Fri May 05, 2000 11:19 am

The key statistic is that the 773ER is 30,000kg lighter at MTOW to do the same job!
Ruscoe
 
Trvlr
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RE: AF To Announce Order B777-300ER

Fri May 05, 2000 11:20 am

If it is because of #3, then that means AF judged the aircraft by a quality standpoint. They probably don't need to worry about ETOPS (maybe on Tahiti routes, but they fly 744s there anyway), and you could bet that Airbus would have given them a hefty discount. Anyway, we will still have to see how the A340-600 is, though. Can anyone remind me when the first one will be launched? Thanks.

Aaron G.
 
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sammyk
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RE: AF To Announce Order B777-300ER

Fri May 05, 2000 11:36 am

Air France did indeed order the 777 so that they could make good on the 767/737 orders. After receiving the aircraft, they fell in love with it. So, I think the order for the -300ER is because they like the aircraft and its economics. Also, I dont think they have any options left on their original 777 order...the later deliveries are from ILFC...

Sammy
 
CX747
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RE: AF To Announce Order B777-300ER

Fri May 05, 2000 11:56 am

If my memory serves me well I believe that the last 737/767 options were picked up when the last batch of 777-200ERs were ordered. As people hae mentioned above, AF has fallen in love with this aircraft and its preference over the A340 is beginning to show. F.Y.I. Supposedly the 747-400s for the most part have been converted to all pax configuration and when the 777-300ERs come on line will be deployed to the West Indies area of the world. I guess right now their extra capacity is needed on current trans-atlantic routes that the 747-200 carry enough people on.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
Samurai 777
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It's About Time!

Fri May 05, 2000 12:00 pm

It's about time! I'd say that Air France has just become the first non-Asian customer to order the 777-300! Especially the 777-300ER.
 
Hamlet69
Posts: 2541
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RE: AF To Announce Order B777-300ER

Fri May 05, 2000 12:30 pm

Sv11,
I would suggest that all your options plays some role in the final decision.
AF originally ordered 10 -200ERs with 12 options. Since then they've ordered 4 more, presumably converting options. That leaves 8 options left. #1 - CHECK!
It's already been mentioned that AF has a good working relationship with GE. No reason not to continue. #2 - CHECK!
As I, and others, have stated, AF loves their 777s. With the improvements the -300LR offers, there is no reason they would not be thrilled to have them also. #3 - CHECK!

I hate to be nit-picky here, but the new birds will not be 'ER's but actually 'LR' for both the -200 AND -300. Yep, that's 777-300LR.

Now a question: Do you see AF also going for the -200LR, or do they even need it?

Thanks

Hamlet69
All gave some. Some gave all.
 
wingman
Posts: 3922
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RE: AF To Announce Order B777-300ER

Fri May 05, 2000 12:37 pm

This is great news. It shows that airlines will order the aircraft they like and receive favorable deals for regardless of political interference. To anyone that complains about US Air going Airbus, to see AF go with the 777 over the 340 is equally "shocking".

I think by the close of 2000, we'll see the 777 surpass the 330/340 in terms of overall sales. This is a testament to the aircraft itself, not Boeing. The 330/340 line actually competes against the 767, 777, and to a lesser degree the 744.

Airbus has a clear winner from a pax standpoint in the 320 series. The only other true competitor I see is the 330 which has a great niche in width and cargo b/t the 767 and 777. Well, my point is that competition breeds better products and attention to the customer. Here's to free competition and fair trade. Airbus has the experience, marketshare, and product family to now stand on its own. I just hate to see Leahy and crew boast about their accomplishments and the demise of Boeing when they've been competing in the marathon using a wheelchair. Come on boys, let's see you come clean and go mano a mano.
 
Hamlet69
Posts: 2541
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2000 2:45 am

RE: AF To Announce Order B777-300ER

Fri May 05, 2000 2:15 pm

Although I believe both Boeing and Airbus do the same bull **** and then complain about each other, one thing that really rubs me the wrong way recently is AI claiming the A330/A340 is beating the 777 by over 100 planes. Now I'm not arguing their numbers. It's clear that they have @ 590 compared to the 777's 460. But what I feel is misleading is that AI has about 130 orders for the A330-200, a plane the 777 doesn't compete against. What I feel is a fair comparison is the A332 against the 764, where the Airbus is still kicking butt. Then leave the A333 and the A340 family to compete against their true competitor, the 777. I know this will never happen, but a man can dream, can't he??

Thanks for letting me vent.  

Hamlet69
All gave some. Some gave all.

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