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Orion737
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UK Charter Carriers Cutting Fleet Size?

Sun Aug 21, 2005 11:28 pm

It seems over the last couple of years that the major UK charter airlines are trimming back capacity. This, I suspect, is due to the increase in no-frills airlines serving many of the charter airlines traditional destinations.

Only a few years ago MYT had 3 DC10-10s and a DC10-30. Other charter airlines seem to be replacing larger 757s with more 320/321s which offer reduced capacity.

Any more expected cuts? How many aircraft will ThomsonFly operate next year?
 
ohthedrama747
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RE: UK Charter Carriers Cutting Fleet Size?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 12:26 am

Indeed getting rid of the 757s/DC 10s reduce capacity but with more A32x's and the like there is an increase in frequency which most people will prefer as it gives them more choice on when to depart.

Just my 2p's worth...

G
 
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B742
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RE: UK Charter Carriers Cutting Fleet Size?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 12:39 am

Quoting OhTheDrama747 (Reply 1):
Indeed getting rid of the 757s/DC 10s reduce capacity but with more A32x's and the like there is an increase in frequency which most people will prefer as it gives them more choice on when to depart.

Most people do not have the choice to choose what time their flight departs! Most charter seats are through tour operators, who book the seats, so you don't really choose when you depart!

Excel seems to be still expanding, but I don't get why MYT are going backwards!


Any news on XLA and the A310's?

Rob!  Smile
 
A321fly
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RE: UK Charter Carriers Cutting Fleet Size?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 12:39 am

At the same time as decreases i also see increases in fleet size, First Choice and Thomas Cook are examples, Excel another, Monarch another.

Its only really MyTravel that has cut back mainly due to its past financial situation and cutting holiday capacity.

In fact as soon as the B767's went they brought in a A333 from ex.Premiair and a A332 from the same company.

Examples of expansion,

FCA - B767

TCX - Possibly another A330 and B757.

XLA - B737, B767

MON - B767, A320

[Edited 2005-08-21 17:42:26]
 
ilgrancapo
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RE: UK Charter Carriers Cutting Fleet Size?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 12:41 am

Quoting Orion737 (Thread starter):
Any more expected cuts? How many aircraft will ThomsonFly operate next year?

Thomsonfly will operate in 2006:

4 Boeing 735, 4 Boeing 733, 4 Boeing 752 ET, 16 Boeing 752 (one of those leased to Britannia Sweden) and 13 Boeing 763.

Quoting Orion737 (Thread starter):
Other charter airlines seem to be replacing larger 757s with more 320/321s which offer reduced capacity.

As I listened, First Choice wants to substitute part of its current fleet of 752ET with more 763 or 772 awaiting the first 787 in 2009.

Quoting Orion737 (Thread starter):
Only a few years ago MYT had 3 DC10-10s and a DC10-30

These DC10's were replaced with 332.
 
Orion737
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RE: UK Charter Carriers Cutting Fleet Size?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 12:42 am

Yes but Monarch have actually switched much of their aircraft to flying scheduled rather than charter seats sold through tour operators.
 
A321fly
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RE: UK Charter Carriers Cutting Fleet Size?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 1:07 am

Quoting Ilgrancapo (Reply 4):
772

Can they fill a plane that size?
 
bhxforever
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RE: UK Charter Carriers Cutting Fleet Size?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 3:10 am

Im guessing most of the reductions will be down to the effect of low cost carriers springing up everywhere offering cheap flights to the sun at lower prices than the charters. Also the increase of people on "do it yourself" holidays rather than people booking the traditional package holiday.
 
Orion737
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RE: UK Charter Carriers Cutting Fleet Size?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 3:18 am

I think the no-frills airlines flying to the ALCs, PMIs, FAOs, and AGPs have had a hige impact on charter carriers, particularly on the flight only sales which charter airlines used to fill up the plane.

Also many tour operators are now making increasing use of foreign charter carriers (Spanair, Onur, Futura etc) who are able to offer cheaper rates, particularly from regional airports where the big charter airlines are reluctant to base an aircraft.
 
ilgrancapo
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RE: UK Charter Carriers Cutting Fleet Size?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 3:26 am

Quoting Ilgrancapo (Reply 4):
As I listened, First Choice wants to substitute part of its current fleet of 752ET with more 763 or 772 awaiting the first 787 in 2009.



Quoting A321fly (Reply 6):
Can they fill a plane that size?

Thinking about the great desire of british touroperators to put in service a charter flight from England to Australia, maybe it will be the best plane to do this route.

Remember that, I think that MyTravel or other (sorry, I can´t remember) want to start flights to Australia with a 763.
 
gilesdavies
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RE: UK Charter Carriers Cutting Fleet Size?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 3:28 am

Sorry I hope I don't sound ignorant but what is a 757ET?

I have heard of the 757-200ER.

What does the ET mean and what does this do for the aircraft?
 
ilgrancapo
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RE: UK Charter Carriers Cutting Fleet Size?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 3:29 am

Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 10):
Sorry I hope I don't sound ignorant but what is a 757ET?

Sorry for my explanation: Boeing 757-200 ER (ETops)
 
ExPedia
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RE: UK Charter Carriers Cutting Fleet Size?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 4:36 am

The future of UK tour ops is not pretty, and their fleet planning reflects that. The fact is that the "take it or leave it" holidays are dying. Dynamic packaging - where scheduled or charter flights are bundled with land components, with infinite durations and options possible and prices constructed on the fly - are taking off like crazy. People have always wanted to have more flexibility, but didn't know how. Thanks primarily to the web, now they can, and they are in droves.

Also, do-it-yourself packages - where the pax buy a LCC flight and the land components separately - are becoming much more popular, since people can often get better flight options, the duration they want or the hotel they want that way vs. via a tour op.

The days of traditional tour ops shoving holidays down people's throats are numbered, and as a result they are scrambling to figure out how to catch up to where their customers are going, or in many cases, are already.
-- ExPedia
 
egmcman
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RE: UK Charter Carriers Cutting Fleet Size?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 4:45 am

Quoting ExPedia (Reply 12):
The future of UK tour ops is not pretty, and their fleet planning reflects that. The fact is that the "take it or leave it" holidays are dying. Dynamic packaging - where scheduled or charter flights are bundled with land components, with infinite durations and options possible and prices constructed on the fly - are taking off like crazy. People have always wanted to have more flexibility, but didn't know how. Thanks primarily to the web, now they can, and they are in droves.

Also, do-it-yourself packages - where the pax buy a LCC flight and the land components separately - are becoming much more popular, since people can often get better flight options, the duration they want or the hotel they want that way vs. via a tour op.

The days of traditional tour ops shoving holidays down people's throats are numbered, and as a result they are scrambling to figure out how to catch up to where their customers are going, or in many cases, are already

I agree on short haul holidays in Europe but don't forget more Brits own overseas properties. Long haul is only future for tour operators IMHO.

cheers
egmcman
 
ExPedia
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RE: UK Charter Carriers Cutting Fleet Size?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 5:07 am

Fair comment, but even then you run into other issues. Trying to run a 763 or what have you on a given long haul route requires a lot of pax to make profitable - remember these guys are usually aiming for loads north of 92% in order to hit their profit targets. Said another way, less than that and they aren't making money. And while many Brits may now have holiday homes overseas, there are almost certainly not enough of them to make the numbers on these routes work, even if the tour ops were to get serious about seat only as a business. Tour ops make their money off of selling the whole holiday - seat only is typically a top-off or fire-sale sell-off to reduce cost.

If anything, a trend to privately owned accommodation strips more pax away from traditional tour ops and puts them onto the radar of sched carriers. Any way you slice it, the traditional tour op gang are facing serious obstacles.
-- ExPedia
 
LGW
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RE: UK Charter Carriers Cutting Fleet Size?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 5:37 am

Hi all,

The package holiday is changing not dying, the number of Brits taking package holidays in 2005 is around 8 million so there is still huge demand, it is a transitional period for the traditional charter carriers as they aim to compete with the LCC's.

People seem to think the LCC's is the only way to go, give it time and things go full circle, what with seat only sales, competitive fares and Monarch scheduled, Thomsonfly (the LCC) etc the LCC's do not have an easy ride.

There are also many routes which LCC's are unlikely to every do or if they do will probably find it tough such as North Africa, Cyprus, Greek Islands etc

MYT are downsizing to survive! MON have added a 767, TCX, FCA etc are not downsizing, soon they will need to look at 757 replacements as most 752's operating charter routes are old and pretty tired! The smaller aircraft aid flexability such as operating W rotations from Larger airports but incorperating regional airports eg LGW-PMI-BRS-PMI-LGW

Cheers

Ben Pritchard

[Edited 2005-08-21 22:39:37]
 
egmcman
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RE: UK Charter Carriers Cutting Fleet Size?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 5:40 am

Quoting ExPedia (Reply 14):
And while many Brits may now have holiday homes overseas, there are almost certainly not enough of them to make the numbers on these routes work, even if the tour ops were to get serious about seat only as a business.

A large number of Brits are expats who are residents at some of these destinations also and they generate a lot of vfr passengers. It doesn't help that U2 operate several flights a day from most of their hubs most of the destinations that were traditional tour ops. I also know you can fly seat only FCA and BAL my family have used these also and I know expats in Marbella area of Spain.

Quoting ExPedia (Reply 14):
If anything, a trend to privately owned accommodation strips more pax away from traditional tour ops and puts them onto the radar of sched carriers. Any way you slice it, the traditional tour op gang are facing serious obstacles.

I would go along with that as a family friend who lives in Marbella makes a living by renting and selling properties.

Cheers

egmcman
 
Orion737
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RE: UK Charter Carriers Cutting Fleet Size?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 5:43 am

I think part of the reason people are shifting from package holidays is that once upon a time, a package holiday consisted of three elements; flight (inclusive of meal), Accommodation and Transfers.

Nowadays people go to book a package holiday and find they have extra charges on top for transfers and in-flight meals. So they think, hang on, might as well book it myself.

The tour operators should calculate their holidays inclusive of the basic three elements which have always made up a package holiday/inclusive tour.
 
egmcman
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RE: UK Charter Carriers Cutting Fleet Size?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 5:56 am

Quoting Orion737 (Reply 17):
The tour operators should calculate their holidays inclusive of the basic three elements which have always made up a package holiday/inclusive tour.

I agree they way the complete package is bundled together is a factor and as mentioned before the internet gives people more choice.

Cheers

egmcman
 
lhrmaccoll
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RE: UK Charter Carriers Cutting Fleet Size?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 6:03 am

Another image change for MYT? The transition from Airtours - My Travel was a big, big mistake in my opinion. They had just got to a point when they were recognized accross Europe, especially with their European Base, and then they changed to MYT, and opened MYT Lite (Another dodgy decision) and killed their DC-10s.
Excel seems to be getting bigger by the day. They are suprisingly profitable, and put airlines like british midland to shame....
Alex
 
ExPedia
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RE: UK Charter Carriers Cutting Fleet Size?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 6:03 am

Quoting LGW (Reply 15):
The package holiday is changing not dying, the number of Brits taking package holidays in 2005 is around 8 million so there is still huge demand

I agree that 8 million customers is a large packaged holiday market. However, according to the UK Office of National Statistics, the number in 2001 was 20,631,000 - for a drop of 61% in 4 years (if that 8 million number is projected for 2005).

Not exactly a shining example of future promise, eh?

Stats can be found here: www.irnresearch.com/downloads/IRNSampleTravelMarket.pdf
-- ExPedia
 
Orion737
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RE: UK Charter Carriers Cutting Fleet Size?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 6:06 am

Instead of concentrating on what they have always done well, offering a complete 'packaged' holiday, they started messing about and putting seperate costings in brchures for transfers and airline meals, things that had always traditionally been included in a package holiday.
 
lhrmaccoll
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RE: UK Charter Carriers Cutting Fleet Size?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 6:11 am

Those statistics are only because of the internet, people doing it themselves. If First Choice or Airtours or whatever get less holidays booked, they cut the fleet, if they get more holidays booked, the lease some more, or charter a jet of Excel or anyone, thats how it works.
Most of the time, the charter companies european flights which i have experienced are crammed full, often 100% load factor.
Alex
 
LGW
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RE: UK Charter Carriers Cutting Fleet Size?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 6:15 am

Hi all,

I agree the reduction is large and it does not make good reading but it is far from the end of the package holiday, as I say it will adapt to fit what consumers requirements are, as the number of actual package holidays have reduced these figures do not include seat only charter sales etc which is were many of the people who do not do package holidays have gone to..

There are still a huge number of passengers (myself included) which take go to Greece, Cyprus etc every year and fly with charter carriers. I book my flight direct with Monarch and my hotel direct. I am going to Cyprus in 10 days and there are no low cost carriers to choice from on the route but even where competition exists many want such luxuries (!) as audio and visual IFE, allocated seating and boarding from a gate, not a bus to a remote stand a a rush to geta seat.

There is room for charter, scheduled and low cost operators and there is a need for all three types just not all on the same routes!

"The tour operators should calculate their holidays inclusive of the basic three elements which have always made up a package holiday/inclusive tour"

Couldn't agree more! For example when I looked in the Thomson brochure for my week in Paphos they wanted £670 for the hotel and flight, £10 rtn for coach transfer (£55! for taxi) and £10 for meals. But my flight (on Monarch), hotel, meals and private taxi transfer costs £515 total!

It is all very well tour operators trying to break down the costs to make it more transparent but as you say when you see what they charge for each componant it can also work against them!

"the charter companies european flights which i have experienced are crammed full, often 100% load factor"  yes  exactly right, me too

Cheers

Ben Pritchard

[Edited 2005-08-21 23:17:56]
 
lhrmaccoll
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RE: UK Charter Carriers Cutting Fleet Size?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 6:19 am

All the tour operators make a huge amount on flights.
For instance, in First Choices budget, a week in Crete is £735 per person, £280 of that is flights, and they have a 757 crammed with 200 people? Thats a hell of a lot more than BA are making.
So what if they cut their fleet, they are only doing this as the demand is low, if it gets up again, they'll get some more. Simple as that.
They are not facing problems. Remember charter airlines are NOT LCC's, far from it
A;ex
 
ExPedia
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RE: UK Charter Carriers Cutting Fleet Size?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 6:23 am

There's a lot to all this. Tour ops are vertically integrated businesses, where they own the High Street shops, the planes, the transfer companies and the hotels. So to some extent - really only to the extent that they can continue to control the beds in destinations people want to go to - they have a future. Controlling lift gets them something, but moving to primarily seat-only charter business is unlikely to pay the bills in the manner in which they would like to see them paid.

But at the highest level - and by that I mean what more and more customers WANT vs. HAVE TO DO - the tour ops are in a death spiral. More and more customers are moving on, or showing that they would like to given half a chance.

The tour ops and all that depend on them for their livelihoods (including wet lease operators) had better figure things out fast.
-- ExPedia
 
A321fly
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RE: UK Charter Carriers Cutting Fleet Size?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 6:24 am

Essentially the only way to get to some destinations is by package holiday, many hotels offer no direct booking service because tour operators take up all the rooms.
 
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Crosswind
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RE: UK Charter Carriers Cutting Fleet Size?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 6:47 am

Quoting Lhrmaccoll (Reply 24):
For instance, in First Choices budget, a week in Crete is £735 per person, £280 of that is flights, and they have a 757 crammed with 200 people? Thats a hell of a lot more than BA are making.
So what if they cut their fleet, they are only doing this as the demand is low, if it gets up again, they'll get some more. Simple as that.
They are not facing problems. Remember charter airlines are NOT LCC's, far from it

Don't know where those figures come from but the seat rate a charter airline would charge a tour operator for a round trip Crete is nowhere near £280. For the airline component of a package holiday charter airlines make around £5-£7 per passenger.

While a tour operator employs fluid pricing over the course of a season, the airlines they contract with be paid a flat rate, there is no direct relationship between the price a tour operator charges and what the airline gets paid.

Fleet changes are planned years in advance because you can't just "get" more aircraft, "get" more crews and "get" more airport slots at a few weeks notice.

The First Choice solution to the current situation is diversification and differentiation, over the past few years the group has purchased a large number of profitable specialist and niche operators to reduce dependance on mass-market tourism.

At the same time the mainstream product is being "remixed" to reduce exposure to the short-haul market. At the same time that the range of medium and long-haul holidays is being increased, focus is also being made on a differentiated product, 2/3* properties are being dropped and replaced with 4/5* properties, the long-haul 767 fleet has been refurbished, the company is rolling out several First Choice Holiday Villages.

There are a number of interesting investor presentations on the First Choice Group website which give more detail on the changes currently being made.

Regards
CROSSWIND
 
A321fly
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RE: UK Charter Carriers Cutting Fleet Size?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 6:53 am

Quoting Crosswind (Reply 27):
First Choice Holiday Villages

Oh Dear!

----------


I dont think there will ever be an end to Charter because people are buying them left right and centre.
 
ExPedia
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RE: UK Charter Carriers Cutting Fleet Size?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 6:56 am

Excellent post, Crosswind. Your economics and timelines are about bang on, and I agree that FCD is probably the furthest along the path to at least actively doing SOMETHING about building a future for the model.

But even this paints a picture of a much smaller business - it has to be if long haul is the core of it - and does not address the customer desire for more control and flexibility. All of these folks have to address the noose that their in-house distribution and lack of technology investments over the years have put around their necks. If people don't want to buy that way as much any more, you simply have to make aggressive changes. Not pretty, but there you have it.
-- ExPedia
 
gkirk
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RE: UK Charter Carriers Cutting Fleet Size?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 7:06 am

It's a shame that tour operators are cutting back. For example, at Newcastle (NCL) next year, First Choice Airways won't have a single flight through there, desopite NCL being the 5th largest UK summer Airport for charters (behind MAN,LGW,BHX and GLA). All the First Choice passengers get flown by Thomas Cook mainly.
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
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Crosswind
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RE: UK Charter Carriers Cutting Fleet Size?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 7:15 am

Quoting ExPedia (Reply 29):
But even this paints a picture of a much smaller business - it has to be if long haul is the core of it - and does not address the customer desire for more control and flexibility. All of these folks have to address the noose that their in-house distribution and lack of technology investments over the years have put around their necks.

The company seems to have accepted the mainstream sector will be smaller in the future... Over the winter 2 757s are leaving the fleet and will be replaced by 767s. While fleet-size is remaining flat (certainly not growing) passenger numbers are falling as a result of the increased focus on long-haul; if you assume a 225 passenger load on a 757 and 4 sectors per day on average, each 757 contributes 900 passengers per day. If that 757 is replaced with a long-haul 767 and you assume 250 passengers load, on long-haul you only achieve 2 sectors per day the 767 will contribute only 500 passengers - a drop of approx 35%.

As for the noose of in-house distribution, FC's network of shops is only a fraction of the other UK players as it has generally been obtained by aquisition - traditionally the group hasn't had it's own distribution network. There certainly has been a lack of investment in technology, I think that's a really pressing issue that needs to be addressed - it will be instrumental in allowing companies to give customers increased control and flexibiliy without vastly increasing operating costs.

Still a long way to go...

Regards
CROSSWIND
 
ExPedia
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RE: UK Charter Carriers Cutting Fleet Size?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 7:56 am

Quoting Crosswind (Reply 31):
As for the noose of in-house distribution, FC's network of shops is only a fraction of the other UK players

Yes, my comment about in-house distribution was aimed at the market in general - FCD is in the best position of them all in that specific regard.

No wonder FCD is out-performing the other traditional players. Plus they have some smart guys there (Peter, Nigel, Dermot) who have had their hands on the tiller for some time. It all comes in to play.

The real issue, though, is keeping pace with the blistering pace of change in customer planning and purchase expectations, comfort with independent travel and the frightening technology and people investments that these changes drive. Truth is that FCD, MT, TUI et al are no longer simply competing with each other - they are primarily competing with alternatives that customers are finding themselves.

All fascinating, really.
-- ExPedia
 
planesailing
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RE: UK Charter Carriers Cutting Fleet Size?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 8:33 am

Has the charter market changed its focus now from down south to up north more so?

Before, in my younger days, LGW used to be full of charter aircraft full to the wings of passengers, where as these days, there is not as much choice.
 
ExPedia
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RE: UK Charter Carriers Cutting Fleet Size?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 8:56 am

Departures from up North you mean, vs. all-LGW, all-the-time, so to speak?
-- ExPedia
 
planesailing
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RE: UK Charter Carriers Cutting Fleet Size?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 9:02 am

Quoting ExPedia (Reply 34):
Departures from up North you mean, vs. all-LGW, all-the-time, so to speak?

London Gatwick used to be rife with charter aircraft. Along with Luton, they used to serve the south easts market. Nowdays, the choice has only slightly largened with Bristol involved aswell.

Up in the north of the country, I hear of them going from Manchester, Newcastle, Glasgow, Birmingham, East Midlands etc. There seems to have been an exponential growth in charter flights from northern airports, and less capacity out of London.

Why has this change occured?
 
ExPedia
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RE: UK Charter Carriers Cutting Fleet Size?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 9:16 am

Thanks for the clarification.

In a nutshell, those markets were underserved and the tour ops were looking for growth opportunities/ways to up fleet utilization in less competitive locales. That was the rationale in at the outset, anyway. Pretty standard "TourOp 101" stuff.
-- ExPedia
 
planesailing
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RE: UK Charter Carriers Cutting Fleet Size?

Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:43 am

Quoting ExPedia (Reply 20):
Stats can be found here: www.irnresearch.com/downloads/IRNSam...t.pdf

Cant get this link to work.
 
ExPedia
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RE: UK Charter Carriers Cutting Fleet Size?

Thu Aug 25, 2005 10:56 am

Hmm. It is working for me.

Here it is again, or try searching Google for "number of UK passengers taking packaged holidays in 2000". It comes up then, and I clicked it no problem:

http://www.irn-research.com/downloads/IRNSampleTravelMarket.pdf
-- ExPedia
 
gkirk
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RE: UK Charter Carriers Cutting Fleet Size?

Thu Aug 25, 2005 4:31 pm

Quoting Planesailing (Reply 35):
Up in the north of the country, I hear of them going from Manchester, Newcastle, Glasgow, Birmingham, East Midlands etc. There seems to have been an exponential growth in charter flights from northern airports, and less capacity out of London.

Why has this change occured?

Because the charter airlines/tour operators have realised there is life outside of London, and everyone is sick at having to fly from London.
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
egmcman
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RE: UK Charter Carriers Cutting Fleet Size?

Fri Aug 26, 2005 12:22 am

Quoting Planesailing (Reply 35):
London Gatwick used to be rife with charter aircraft. Along with Luton, they used to serve the south easts market. Nowdays, the choice has only slightly largened with Bristol involved aswell.

Up in the north of the country, I hear of them going from Manchester, Newcastle, Glasgow, Birmingham, East Midlands etc. There seems to have been an exponential growth in charter flights from northern airports, and less capacity out of London.

Why has this change occured?

Less slots available due to the growth EZY's hub, emirates operating there three times daily, Qatar Airways and Ethiad airawys serving daliy. Monarch's sceduled flights, GB Airways increasing number of services and Eastern European carriers operating out of LGW.

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 39):
Because the charter airlines/tour operators have realised there is life outside of London, and everyone is sick at having to fly from London

Is insulting to the 8.1 million people who live in the South East. I say it's the growth low carriers.

Cheers
egmcman
 
mainMAN
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RE: UK Charter Carriers Cutting Fleet Size?

Fri Aug 26, 2005 2:10 am

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 39):
Because the charter airlines/tour operators have realised there is life outside of London, and everyone is sick at having to fly from London.



Quoting Egmcman (Reply 40):
Is insulting to the 8.1 million people who live in the South East.

By the same token (Gkirk) there are loads of people who are sick of having to travel to Manchester to fly (Glaswegians). There are loads of places only available from LGW and MAN, obviously because the demand only exists for a couple of departures per week (one from the bottom of the UK, the other from the middle/top end)

I'd also say that charter carriers have always been much better at meeting regional demand than scheduled carriers. The latter have that old yield chestnut to contend with.

[Edited 2005-08-25 19:15:31]
 
mainMAN
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RE: UK Charter Carriers Cutting Fleet Size?

Fri Aug 26, 2005 2:12 am

And I've just noticed you're from Scotland, so you should know what I'm talking about!  Wink
 
ExPedia
Posts: 49
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2005 10:37 am

RE: UK Charter Carriers Cutting Fleet Size?

Fri Aug 26, 2005 3:45 am

Quick reminder that, in the huge majority of cases, the "charter carriers" aren't the ones deciding where they fly - it is the tour operators calling the shots (though in fairness this is often the same outfit). And yes, the tour ops are typically much more nimble in opening new gateways - killing poor performing pairings - than the sched carriers are. A big driver here is that usually a tour op contracts and commits to pay for a given number of seats over a certain number of hours, and has to fork out the cash regardless. Getting a pairing wrong has big implications as they still have to write the cheque, so they will pull the plug and re-deploy the machine in a heartbeat.

This is also a big reason behind frequent charter sched changes.
-- ExPedia
 
mainMAN
Posts: 1636
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2005 7:55 am

RE: UK Charter Carriers Cutting Fleet Size?

Fri Aug 26, 2005 4:20 am

That's true ExPedia (online travel guru eh?!!  Smile)

Just occurred to me that charter airlines generally fly full, for obvious reasons (although no loss to the airline if they don't)

[Edited 2005-08-25 21:27:40]
 
ExPedia
Posts: 49
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2005 10:37 am

RE: UK Charter Carriers Cutting Fleet Size?

Fri Aug 26, 2005 4:43 am

Typically the tour ops calculate their pricing on the assumption of loads something in the area of 92% plus. Depends on the deal with the carrier, and of course it gets muddier if the carrier is in-house. But said another way, the T.O. doesn't make money if they operate at less than that, and that also assumes that the durations and % seat-only vs. ITC seats on any given plane has played out as they planned when they priced it all.

It's little wonder these guys struggle - this is all very hard to do, and is made even harder with not-great technology, smarter customers, antiquated distribution and emerging, aggressive competitors.

Also no shock that some of the people in this business are the sharpest folks in the travel game. They bloody well have to be  Smile
-- ExPedia
 
whitehatter
Posts: 5180
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2004 6:52 am

RE: UK Charter Carriers Cutting Fleet Size?

Fri Aug 26, 2005 4:58 am

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 39):
Because the charter airlines/tour operators have realised there is life outside of London, and everyone is sick at having to fly from London.

Another is the collapse in IT revenues from the south.

Pasengers are dividing into two camps; namely those with horrific mortgages to pay and therefore less disposable income and those who have money and want something better than Benidorm.

Quoting Orion737 (Reply 21):
Instead of concentrating on what they have always done well, offering a complete 'packaged' holiday, they started messing about and putting seperate costings in brchures for transfers and airline meals, things that had always traditionally been included in a package holiday.

I know it's a waste of time trying to dislodge your entrenched views on the subject, but here goes again.

Holidaymakers have grown beyond what you suggest. Fred Pontin and Billy Butlin made their millions out of old Army bases converted into camps with the hi-de-hi atmosphere and rigid mealtimes. Go look at a calendar. You'll notice it says 2005 now. And those people don't exist anymore. The camps either adapted or are on their last legs.

Holidaymakers can tailor what they want to when they want and where they want to fly from and to, with a few clicks of a mouse. What you describe is farcical. Suggesting that the holidaymaker of 2005 WANTS to be told what to eat, when to eat it and generally led by the nose are OVER.

It's the age of the lowcost and individually tailored travel/accomodation. Get over it. IT is the Butlins of the 21st century and its days are numbered in the form you suggest people are pining for....
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
ExPedia
Posts: 49
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2005 10:37 am

RE: UK Charter Carriers Cutting Fleet Size?

Fri Aug 26, 2005 5:45 am

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 46):
What you describe is farcical. Suggesting that the holidaymaker of 2005 WANTS to be told what to eat, when to eat it and generally led by the nose are OVER.

The desire for choice and control around flights, durations etc. is there in spades, but it is interesting that the biggest trend in terms of accommodation once people get to where they are going is the All Inclusive resort. And that many of these are either owned or managed by the tour ops themselves.

People still like the fly'n'flop / shake'n'bake - even if their method of buying it or flying there is changing dramatically.
-- ExPedia
 
planesailing
Posts: 564
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2005 4:57 am

RE: UK Charter Carriers Cutting Fleet Size?

Fri Aug 26, 2005 7:39 am

Quoting ExPedia (Reply 38):
Hmm. It is working for me.

Here it is again, or try searching Google for "number of UK passengers taking packaged holidays in 2000". It comes up then, and I clicked it no problem:

http://www.irn-research.com/download...t.pdf

Its working now, you added the - between irn and research!!
 
mainMAN
Posts: 1636
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2005 7:55 am

RE: UK Charter Carriers Cutting Fleet Size?

Fri Aug 26, 2005 8:12 am

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 46):
Suggesting that the holidaymaker of 2005 WANTS to be told what to eat, when to eat it and generally led by the nose are OVER.

A dying breed perhaps, but not totally gone. I'm sure there are quite a few people left who want a fortnight in Torremolinos and like it all sorted for them, including mealtimes. In fact, I know there are.

I think Orion737 is talking about the over-complication of what really should be a simple transaction......i.e. a package holiday

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