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bells
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Should FAs Get Basic Flight Training?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 11:25 pm

Given the confirmation by Flight that a steward was trying (without much success) to fly the Helios 737 following the incapacitation of the flight crew, there could be calls for cabin crew to have some basic flight training.

If he’d at least had basic R/T knowledge it would have probably helped in this situation.

Should flight attendants get some form of flight training to handle such a situation?

http://www.flightinternational.com/A...student+pilot+at+the+controls.html
 
Shenzhen
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RE: Should FAs Get Basic Flight Training?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 11:32 pm

Sure, why not.

If you work at Boeing, you get 2000.00 USD once you solo, and another once you get you private license.

cheers
 
satx
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RE: Should FAs Get Basic Flight Training?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 11:37 pm

I agree. Maybe there should be a requirement for some basic control skills for in-flight emergencies. How to handle the radio and set the autopilot to auto-land, that sort of thing. Include it in the FA emergency manual as well, because if they don't use it on a regular basis they'll probably forget it. Does any airline already do this?
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MidnightMike
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RE: Should FAs Get Basic Flight Training?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 11:58 pm

Quoting Bells (Thread starter):
Given the confirmation by Flight that a steward was trying (without much success) to fly the Helios 737 following the incapacitation of the flight crew, there could be calls for cabin crew to have some basic flight training.

Basic flight training to handle a large commercial jet, you are not talking about something that can learned in a week.

It takes a pilots months to learn how to fly a big commercial jet and that is taking into account all of their previous experience on smaller jets.

About the only thing that would be practical is for the F/A's to learn how to operate the radios to radio for help.
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desertjets
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RE: Should FAs Get Basic Flight Training?

Tue Aug 23, 2005 12:03 am

If the movie "Airport 1975" is any indicator, good looking flight attendants can easily fly planes and operate the radio.

Given the complexity and skill required to operate a commercial airliner I don't think a basic flight course is really a good idea, especially given the extreme rarity that the flight crew would be completely incapcitated... and under those circumstances it would seem likely most everyone else on board would be incapcitated as well.
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A350
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RE: Should FAs Get Basic Flight Training?

Tue Aug 23, 2005 12:11 am

Quoting Bells (Thread starter):

If he’d at least had basic R/T knowledge it would have probably helped in this situation.

As far ad I know the F/A had some basic training. However, it was useless since his physical state was too poor due to the lack of oxygen. Can anyone confirm this?

In general, I agree with you.

A350
 
avek00
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RE: Should FAs Get Basic Flight Training?

Tue Aug 23, 2005 12:23 am

Flight training for FAs would fail under most any reasonable cost/benefit economic analysis.
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AirRyan
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RE: Should FAs Get Basic Flight Training?

Tue Aug 23, 2005 12:53 am

Quoting Shenzhen (Reply 1):
If you work at Boeing, you get 2000.00 USD once you solo, and another once you get you private license.

I have never heard of this, is for all their employees?

Quoting Avek00 (Reply 6):
Flight training for FAs would fail under most any reasonable cost/benefit economic analysis.

I agree - absolutely nothing to be gained from an economic standpoint since the probabilities of actually giving enough instruction so as to in the extreme rare chance of that FA actually having to use some of that training and still remember it... well let's just say the odds are slim to none.
 
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jorge1812
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RE: Should FAs Get Basic Flight Training?

Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:41 am

Should everyone who uses the Bus/Train/Taxi/Tram be trained on each of these for the 1:10000000000000000 chance of the driver passing away whilst driving?????

Georg.
 
andz
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RE: Should FAs Get Basic Flight Training?

Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:43 am

Sorry but there is no way to plan for every eventuality. The tragic circumstances that overcame Helios may never happen again, and some other tragedy will happen that no one thought of.

[Edited 2005-08-22 20:03:23]
After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
 
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jorge1812
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RE: Should FAs Get Basic Flight Training?

Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:55 am

Quoting Andz (Reply 9):
Soory but there is no way to plan for every eventuality. The tragic circumstances that overcame Helios may never happen again, and some other tragedy will happen that no one thought of.

Plus the immense costs which would have to be paid.

Georg.
 
satx
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RE: Should FAs Get Basic Flight Training?

Tue Aug 23, 2005 3:01 am

Is setting up the auto-land really so complicated that you couldn't possibly hope to train an FA to read a checklist that gave the basics? I'm not trying to be sarcastic, I really thought this was something that most people could grasp if they only had a checklist or something to go by. If I'm wrong, well, live and learn.
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Maersk737
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RE: Should FAs Get Basic Flight Training?

Tue Aug 23, 2005 3:10 am

Quoting SATX (Reply 11):
Is setting up the auto-land really so complicated that you couldn't possibly hope to train an FA to read a checklist that gave the basics? I'm not trying to be sarcastic, I really thought this was something that most people could grasp if they only had a checklist or something to go by. If I'm wrong, well, live and learn.

Why do we need pilots? Every passenger should be able to read the manual, and then press the "auto takeoff button" and then the "fly at cruise altitude button" and finally the "auto-land button".... It's a piece of take  Wink

Cheers

Peter
I'm not proud to be a Viking, just thankfull
 
FinnWings
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RE: Should FAs Get Basic Flight Training?

Tue Aug 23, 2005 3:31 am

Quoting SATX (Reply 11):
Is setting up the auto-land really so complicated that you couldn't possibly hope to train an FA to read a checklist that gave the basics?

Yes, it is so complicated indeed. You don't just fly the aircraft by pushing a few buttons, activate an autoland and wait for a complete stop and applauds from the cabin. There is so many things which you have to do so training of those F/As is a total waste of money.

The training is extremely expensive and even if only a small percentage of cabin crews would be trained this would cost millions!

Flying is extremely safe and we are prepared for many very unlikely scenarios. However you can't ever be prepared for EVERYTHING possible and that is the thing which must be accepted. Everything in aviation is balancing between safety and acceptable costs.

Without doubt flying is the most safe way of transportation. Rather than requiring investments for aviation safety which exceeds millions of dollars, shouldn't we rather wonder why there are no seat belts in subways, trains or buses for example? Why people require so extremely high safety levels in aviation which aren't achievable but at the same time they don't care a safety at all on board of those other public transportation vehicles even they are missing such a basic safety equipments as seat belts?

The only way to achieve 100% safety in aviation is to ground all aircrafts and ban the whole flying.

Best Regards,
FinnWings
 
gipper913
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RE: Should FAs Get Basic Flight Training?

Tue Aug 23, 2005 3:37 am

Quoting Avek00 (Reply 6):
Flight training for FAs would fail under most any reasonable cost/benefit economic analysis.

Avek00, you said it all. Period.
The size of the federal budget is not an appropriate barometer of social conscience or charitable concern. --R. Reagan
 
MidnightMike
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RE: Should FAs Get Basic Flight Training?

Tue Aug 23, 2005 3:50 am

Quoting SATX (Reply 11):
Is setting up the auto-land really so complicated that you couldn't possibly hope to train an FA to read a checklist that gave the basics? I'm not trying to be sarcastic, I really thought this was something that most people could grasp if they only had a checklist or something to go by. If I'm wrong, well, live and learn

I am not a pilot, but, you can not have a checklist for every possible scenario, in the accident, I believe it was actually the F/A that turned the auto-pilot off. Assuming the F/A was able to master the auto-pilot feature, what about operating the radios, doing the landing.

An airplane is a very complicated piece of machinery and you can not have people in there with minimal training.....
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c680
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RE: Should FAs Get Basic Flight Training?

Tue Aug 23, 2005 4:10 am

Two words:

Hell NO.

The *last* thing I need from the attitude jockeys (Steward/ Stewardess) is the belief that they have some clue about flying the plane. Please stick to the appropriate way to stow the beverage cart. Once you have mastered that basic trick, then perhaps we can move on to more advanced topics like "The intercom: Safety Equipment or Barbie Play Phone?" or "Cabin Doors: How to operate without cracking a nail"

If the boys and girls in the back want to work in the front, then please, report to your nearest recruiter or flight school and go through the proper path of training and experience that the rest of us did.

In the mean time, lets go review our oxygen procedures. Hey, here's an idea, lets follow the regs and put that mask on when the other guy has to go to the lav! Fun? No, but it might well save your butt one day. Especially if your flying the MX hog of the fleet.
My happy place is FL470 - what's yours?
 
greasespot
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RE: Should FAs Get Basic Flight Training?

Tue Aug 23, 2005 5:11 am

Quoting C680 (Reply 16):
Two words:

Hell NO.

The *last* thing I need from the attitude jockeys (Steward/ Stewardess) is the belief that they have some clue about flying the plane. Please stick to the appropriate way to stow the beverage cart. Once you have mastered that basic trick, then perhaps we can move on to more advanced topics like "The intercom: Safety Equipment or Barbie Play Phone?" or "Cabin Doors: How to operate without cracking a nail"

Wow, You should ask for a refund on your CRM training..

GS
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
IFly4UAL
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RE: Should FAs Get Basic Flight Training?

Tue Aug 23, 2005 5:28 am

Quoting C680 (Reply 16):
The *last* thing I need from the attitude jockeys (Steward/ Stewardess) is the belief that they have some clue about flying the plane. Please stick to the appropriate way to stow the beverage cart. Once you have mastered that basic trick, then perhaps we can move on to more advanced topics like "The intercom: Safety Equipment or Barbie Play Phone?" or "Cabin Doors: How to operate without cracking a nail"

Wow--what a sh*tty attitude. I guess that's to be expected from someone who still refer to the "attitude jockeys" as "stewards/stewardesses." I mean, it's only been HOW LONG now that the term "flight attendant" has been used? I am NOT a steward. All I can pray for is that I NEVER have to fly with someone like this. Egotistical asses like this are what makes me glad I'm not an airline pilot.
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aa757first
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RE: Should FAs Get Basic Flight Training?

Tue Aug 23, 2005 5:41 am

If flight attendants receive flight training, they should also receive training in open heart surgery. After all, someone, in certain dire cases, could die on a trans-Pacific flight if they don't get critical surgery in two hours or so.

Let's just think about this logically. If the flight attendant has to assume command of the aircraft, you know that flight is in serious trouble. How is a flight attendant with fifty minutes of flight training going to help?

AAndrew
 
eaglekeeper101
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RE: Should FAs Get Basic Flight Training?

Tue Aug 23, 2005 6:05 am

As many of our brethren have already pointed out, in varying terms, such training would basically teach the FAs just enough to be dangerous.

Obviously, I've said nothing new. I just wanted to use that phrase, since nobody else had yet  Wink
"The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens." - Bahá'u'lláh
 
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FlyPIJets
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RE: Should FAs Get Basic Flight Training?

Tue Aug 23, 2005 6:47 am

Sounds like something the F/A's unions should be looking into. Not really so much for safety of flight issues but as an avenue for the unions to help their members learn more about their craft.

Do F/A unions encourage members to learn to fly?
Rex Kramer: Get that finger out of your ear! You don't know where that finger's been!
 
AgentM
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RE: Should FAs Get Basic Flight Training?

Tue Aug 23, 2005 7:44 am

It sounds good, but as mentioned, economics of the training would not be worth it given the chances of an emergency. Another thing that should be considered is what the chances of a pilot being on board are (at least PPL). I don't have any numbers to back it up, but I would imagine that there's a good chance of having some sort of pilot being a passenger on any larger aircraft. It was mentioned in another thread that PPL's and even MS Flight simers did fairly 'ok' in a full motion sim, most lived with the plane in one piece  Smile
 
YYZatcboy
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RE: Should FAs Get Basic Flight Training?

Tue Aug 23, 2005 7:52 am

Well then why not teach them the basics to help if one crew member is passed out. Or why not give intense flight training to the FA in charge of the aircraft?
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aa757first
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RE: Should FAs Get Basic Flight Training?

Tue Aug 23, 2005 8:09 am

Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 23):
Well then why not teach them the basics to help if one crew member is passed out. Or why not give intense flight training to the FA in charge of the aircraft?

What's the big deal if one pilot passes out? The other one lands the plane. Easy enough. And look at American Airlines. You propose training all of the pursers how to fly the MD-80, B737, B757, B767, B777 and A300 and expect them to remember all of that information while 99.999% to 100% never use it. Not going to work?

AAndrew
 
air2gxs
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RE: Should FAs Get Basic Flight Training?

Tue Aug 23, 2005 8:25 am

Look, I'm an AMT who's extremely familiar with autopilots, FMCs and all the interactions that make them work. I also spend time in the simulator every so often recertifying my taxi certificate. We always shoot approaches, both manual and autoland. And, we almost always crash on manual landings and perform a successful auto land about 75% of the time. Some of us are pilots (PPL mostly, maybe some commercial) and we still wreck.

What I'm trying to get at is that even with our intimate knowledge of the systems and not only how they work, but why, we still crash. How is a F/A with only rudimentary training (no belittling F/A's here) supposed to get one on the ground?

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