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wingedarrow
Topic Author
Posts: 157
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 9:11 pm

Why No Brazilian Carrier At FCO?

Tue Aug 23, 2005 3:14 am

As for connections to/from Mexico, it seems strange that any of the Brazilian airlines are interested in Rome, considering the traffic they cease to Alitalia (which has got the only direct flight to GRU), Air France, Air Europa, Iberia... If I'm not wrong, Varig closed in 2002 but they kept their services in MXP. It was nice to hear that AM maybe could be back in FCO, any chance that could be the same for RG? Any ideas on the reason why Brazilians don't care about Rome?
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BrunoSBGR
Posts: 39
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2005 2:05 am

RE: Why No Brazilian Carrier At FCO?

Tue Aug 23, 2005 3:45 am

Wingedarrow,

Back in the 90's RG used to operate a daily RG730 that went

GIG-GRU-FCO-MXP for some days of the week, and

GIG-GRU-MXP-FCO for the other days. They used to mix it up, and both were operated with MD-11. I flew the first one myself back in 1997.

RG discontinued the flight to FCO even before 2002 I believe, because the demand was not high enough. MXP had much better loads, and Rome was taken off the system.

When they ceased operations to FCO, the flight equipment changed to 767-300, but now the MD-11 is back on that route.

I don't believe FCO is planned by RG in the near future, since MXP has good demand nowadays and Alitalia (with their daily 777-200 GRU-FCO) is handling their demand quite well.

Hope this helps!

Happy landings,

Bruno_SBGR
Private pilot. Frequent flyer. Aviation geek. Proud of all 3.
 
LXsaab2000
Posts: 320
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2004 10:00 pm

RE: Why No Brazilian Carrier At FCO?

Tue Aug 23, 2005 4:14 am

Flights FCO-Brazil by Varig have been discontinued in Feb 2002. The flew to Rome since 1965.

Bye
 
BrunoSBGR
Posts: 39
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2005 2:05 am

RE: Why No Brazilian Carrier At FCO?

Tue Aug 23, 2005 5:51 am

Quoting Lxsaab2000 (Reply 2):
Flights FCO-Brazil by Varig have been discontinued in Feb 2002.

Thanks for the info on that, Lxsaab2000. I wasn't quite sure. Smile

Happy landings,

Bruno_SBGR
Private pilot. Frequent flyer. Aviation geek. Proud of all 3.
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: Why No Brazilian Carrier At FCO?

Tue Aug 23, 2005 6:05 am

Quoting Wingedarrow (Thread starter):
any chance that could be the same for RG? Any ideas on the reason why Brazilians don't care about Rome?

RG currentlly operates MXP-GRU daily MD-11. AZ currently operates MXP-GRU 5 x week and FCO-GRU 2 x week both with the B772.

I think you did not use the correct language that "Brazilians dont care about Rome".

Two major reasons why RG discontinued Rome:

1. RG and AZ, although in different alliances, have a full codeshare on their daily flights Italy-Brazil. In addition, RG provides AZ pax with codeshare for GRU-GIG leg and AZ provides RG pax with codeshare for the MXP-FCO leg. This fact contributed for the pull out of RG from FCO and of AZ from GIG, resulting in savings for both carriers;

2. Also, RG kept its operations focused on MXP because yields in MXP are much higher than FCO, which mainly attracts tourist-reated traffic. It was the same reason why AZ also dropped GIG and remained only in GRU. MXP is the hub of one of the richest regions in Europe.

Taking into account 1 and 2 above, you can be sure that RG will not fly again to FCO, at least while its codeshare with AZ lasts.

Rgs,
 
LXsaab2000
Posts: 320
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RE: Why No Brazilian Carrier At FCO?

Tue Aug 23, 2005 6:15 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 4):
. RG and AZ, although in different alliances, have a full codeshare on their daily flights Italy-Brazil.

It's not true : no more c/s agreement on FCO-MXP leg and also the c/s between AZ and RG on Italy-Brasil flights is valid only on MXP-GRU by AZ and MXP-GRU-GIG by RG. FCO-GRU stands alone , only with AZ code.

Bye
 
pzurita1
Posts: 1243
Joined: Tue Sep 24, 2002 11:21 am

RE: Why No Brazilian Carrier At FCO?

Tue Aug 23, 2005 8:53 am

the one route that continues to baffle me for not existing is MEX-MXP.
Why on earth no one tries to fill this void left by AM lack of equipment and AZ "healthy" financial situation.

PZ
Next flight: IAH-DBX-MRU-ANT
 
Rafabozzolla
Posts: 988
Joined: Sun Apr 30, 2000 1:27 pm

RE: Why No Brazilian Carrier At FCO?

Tue Aug 23, 2005 10:18 am

For me it is even more strange that there is no direct service at all between Mexico and Italy.

But anyway...

Most service on the Brazil-Italy market is geared towards Milan for two main reasons (I think).

-The VFR crowd has ties with northern Italy rather than the south. For some historical abnormality most Italian immigrants to Brazil were form Veneto and Lombardy regions rather than Sicily or Calabria. More recently, Brazilians who have emigrated into Italy went to the north as well (easy to explain).

-The obvious high yielding business pax is specially strong in the mix, since Brazil is one of the non european countries where Italian companies has invested the most.
 
georgiabill
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RE: Why No Brazilian Carrier At FCO?

Tue Aug 23, 2005 10:25 am

Perhaps considering their financial situation most Brazilian Airlines are not willing to risk questionable routes
 
bsbisland
Posts: 351
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2005 2:45 am

RE: Why No Brazilian Carrier At FCO?

Tue Aug 23, 2005 10:31 am

Quoting Georgiabill (Reply 8):
Perhaps considering their financial situation most Brazilian Airlines are not willing to risk questionable routes

You mean just Varig, right? The other ones are in good financial situation, but anyway, I don´t think any of them will try FCO.

Rgs
 
BrunoSBGR
Posts: 39
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2005 2:05 am

RE: Why No Brazilian Carrier At FCO?

Tue Aug 23, 2005 10:33 am

Quoting Georgiabill (Reply 8):
Perhaps considering their financial situation most Brazilian Airlines are not willing to risk questionable routes

That's specially believable when you're talking about RG.

When they shut down the FCO service, they also discontinued flights to Zürich and Amsterdam (although the last destination was re-continued when the 772s were introduced).

In the end of the 90's, RG also discontinued the GIG-GRU-JNB-BKK-HKG route, which was made by MD-11s. Recently, they re-activated the GIG-GRU-JNB route, but I'm not quite sure if they are flying it nowadays.
Private pilot. Frequent flyer. Aviation geek. Proud of all 3.
 
georgiabill
Posts: 1254
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2003 11:53 pm

RE: Why No Brazilian Carrier At FCO?

Tue Aug 23, 2005 10:43 am

I assume FCO could be served nonstop by Tam with their A332's. Obviously Tam has decided to deploy their A332's on routes where they can definitely make money with a minimum risk
 
PPVRA
Posts: 8576
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: Why No Brazilian Carrier At FCO?

Tue Aug 23, 2005 11:01 am

Quoting BrunoSBGR (Reply 10):
Recently, they re-activated the GIG-GRU-JNB route, but I'm not quite sure if they are flying it nowadays.

Nope, not anymore. It's been a while actually, not sure how long though.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
dellatorre
Posts: 865
Joined: Sat May 13, 2000 2:50 pm

RE: Why No Brazilian Carrier At FCO?

Tue Aug 23, 2005 11:32 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 4):
2. Also, RG kept its operations focused on MXP because yields in MXP are much higher than FCO, which mainly attracts tourist-reated traffic. It was the same reason why AZ also dropped GIG and remained only in GRU. MXP is the hub of one of the richest regions in Europe.



Quoting Rafabozzolla (Reply 7):
The obvious high yielding business pax is specially strong in the mix, since Brazil is one of the non european countries where Italian companies has invested the most.

This is true.. but there is one thing that intrigues me though. If you take into consideration flights from Asia, North America and even Argentina to Italy the preferential destination is FCO.

AC, TG, SQ, US, AA, NW, KE, AR, and other airlines fly to FCO instead of MXP! Why aren't the yields in MXP enough to attract all these other airlines...

If I'm not mistaken the only few intercontinental destinations (not considering Alitalia) that have non-stop flights to MXP are JFK, ATL, NRT, GRU, JNB, ???
Can't seem to understand why MXP is so appealing for long haul flights from Brazil and not to other countries..like Argentina for exaple.

Rgs,

Neo
 
bsbisland
Posts: 351
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2005 2:45 am

RE: Why No Brazilian Carrier At FCO?

Tue Aug 23, 2005 12:54 pm

Quoting BrunoSBGR (Reply 10):
Recently, they re-activated the GIG-GRU-JNB route, but I'm not quite sure if they are flying it nowadays.

That was a joke, they flew for so few months. It was 3 weekly GIG-GRU-JNB and 1 weeky GIG-GRU-CPT-JNB.

There were others like JNB. They flew to MUC very shortly, then LH took over the route and then dropped.

I used to have a Icaro (Varig´s inflight magazine) from 1986, which I found in my uncle´s house, I remember seeing their route network and it was amazing. Routes like GIG-LAD-MPM, GIG-LOS, GIG-ABD, GIG-OPO GIG-YYZ-YMQ and others like ZRH, FCO, NGO.

Before I had internet available I used to collect some "panrotas de bolso" from 1995 and 1996. Maybe some Brazilian guys know what I´m talking about, it was a pocket book with all domestic and international timetables in Brazil made for frequent fliers. And I DON´T KNOW HOW, I don´t have it anymore, neither the Icaro magazine which I had "stolen"...  crying 
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5063
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: Why No Brazilian Carrier At FCO?

Tue Aug 23, 2005 3:35 pm

Quoting Rafabozzolla (Reply 7):
Most service on the Brazil-Italy market is geared towards Milan for two main reasons (I think).

-The VFR crowd has ties with northern Italy rather than the south. For some historical abnormality most Italian immigrants to Brazil were form Veneto and Lombardy regions rather than Sicily or Calabria. More recently, Brazilians who have emigrated into Italy went to the north as well (easy to explain).

-The obvious high yielding business pax is specially strong in the mix, since Brazil is one of the non european countries where Italian companies has invested the most.

Rafa, there is also another strong reason: All Italian corporates with Large operations in Brazil like Fiat, Telecom Italia, Pirelli, ENI Oil and some others have their HQ closer to Milan.

IMO, another question to not expand operations Brazil-Italy to FCO is that Italy is not a strong European hub as CDG and FRA (both with several daily operations). The fact that both MXP and FCO operates a good number of pax (and not only one) reduces the power of Italy for connections. If someone from Brazil goes to Servia for example, probably will connect thru FRA.

I think RG does not code share the GRU-FCO flight.. can anyone corrects me if i'm wrong please!

Regards,
Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: Why No Brazilian Carrier At FCO?

Tue Aug 23, 2005 5:01 pm

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 15):
I think RG does not code share the GRU-FCO flight.. can anyone corrects me if i'm wrong please!

Correct. As pointed out in reply 2, AZ-RG codeshare is valid for MXP-GRU/MXP-GRU-GIG flights only. Can anyone explain why? (i.e. why RG puts its code in 5 weekly AZ flights while AZ puts its code in 7 weekly RG flights?). However, AZ still provides RG pax with connections from MXP to other domestic Italian destinations, including FCO. RG FFs can also spend miles on AZ domestic flights.

Quoting Rafabozzolla (Reply 7):
most Italian immigrants to Brazil were form Veneto and Lombardy regions

I think Brazil is the country with the largest Italian immigrant community in the world. Brazil has 25 million inhabitants with Italian origin (or 15% of the population), of which 15 million live in Sao Paulo area.

As Lipe mentioned above, most Italians multinationals that invested in Brazil are located in Northern Italy. In general, the only relevant business traffic between FCO and GRU are Government related and in connections to Vatican matters, otherwise traffic is mainly tourist-oriented.

Rgs,
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: Why No Brazilian Carrier At FCO?

Tue Aug 23, 2005 5:01 pm

Quoting Rafabozzolla (Reply 7):
For me it is even more strange that there is no direct service at all between Mexico and Italy.

Indeed...
 
simo82
Posts: 179
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 7:31 pm

RE: Why No Brazilian Carrier At FCO?

Tue Aug 23, 2005 5:22 pm

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 13):
AC, TG, SQ, US, AA, NW, KE, AR, and other airlines fly to FCO instead of MXP

TG flies to MXP 3 x week on Tu-Fr-Su with a MD-11 the flight is TG 941.

KE has a codesharing flight with Alitalia to Roma
NW has 3 daily codesharing flights with KLM to Amsterdam

Quoting Rafabozzolla (Reply 7):
For me it is even more strange that there is no direct service at all between Mexico and Italy.

Actually there are scheduled flights to Cancun from MXP operated by BV,L4, and GJ even if most of the tickets are sold with a full holiday package the reserve several seat for "normal" passengers

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 13):
If I'm not mistaken the only few intercontinental destinations (not considering Alitalia) that have non-stop flights to MXP are JFK, ATL, NRT, GRU, JNB, ???

For sure that I can remember you must add to the list BKK operated by TG GUA operated by L4 and FLL operated by BY, but I'm quite sure that there are other flights, only that I don't remember them now...

Ciao
Simo
 
wingedarrow
Topic Author
Posts: 157
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 9:11 pm

RE: Why No Brazilian Carrier At FCO?

Wed Aug 24, 2005 5:04 am

Quoting Georgiabill (Reply 11):
I assume FCO could be served nonstop by Tam with their A332's. Obviously Tam has decided to deploy their A332's on routes where they can definitely make money with a minimum risk

That's exactly what I was thinking about. I knew Varig was in trouble, but TAM could be the suitable candidate to open soon here in FCO. Consider also that, as someone stated recently in this forum, TAM is one of the airlines which are next to join Skyteam, so, as for Aeromexico they should start to investigate on the Italian market...
אליטליה
 
FXMD11
Posts: 172
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 1:34 pm

RE: Why No Brazilian Carrier At FCO?

Wed Aug 24, 2005 6:08 am

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 13):
AC, TG, SQ, US, AA, NW, KE, AR, and other airlines fly to FCO instead of MXP! Why aren't the yields in MXP enough to attract all these other airlines...

TG serves MXP trice a week with their MD11 as TG940/TG941. When RG stoped their services in to BKK, TG had an interline agreement with RG via FCO and CDG. That was the time RG still served FCO. Today's connection ex BKK to Brazil are either via CDG, FRA and CPH.
 
Rafabozzolla
Posts: 988
Joined: Sun Apr 30, 2000 1:27 pm

RE: Why No Brazilian Carrier At FCO?

Wed Aug 24, 2005 6:31 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 15):
Rafa, there is also another strong reason: All Italian corporates with Large operations in Brazil like Fiat, Telecom Italia, Pirelli, ENI Oil and some others have their HQ closer to Milan.

Well, I believe that is what I meant in my first answer, no?

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 15):
IMO, another question to not expand operations Brazil-Italy to FCO is that Italy is not a strong European hub as CDG and FRA (both with several daily operations). The fact that both MXP and FCO operates a good number of pax (and not only one) reduces the power of Italy for connections. If someone from Brazil goes to Servia for example, probably will connect thru FRA.

Agree 100%, and IMO Alitalia will not be a viable airline as long as it does not make up its mind about where to develope a real hub!
 
Avianca
Posts: 5375
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 5:33 am

RE: Why No Brazilian Carrier At FCO?

Wed Aug 24, 2005 7:02 am

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 13):
This is true.. but there is one thing that intrigues me though. If you take into consideration flights from Asia, North America and even Argentina to Italy the preferential destination is FCO.

AC, TG, SQ, US, AA, NW, KE, AR, and other airlines fly to FCO instead of MXP! Why aren't the yields in MXP enough to attract all these other airlines...

I would say MXP is stronger on business and local pax market and fco on incoming traffic. Speciall the North-American carrier operates FCO only in summer or with very thin schedules in winter. (mostly passengers are incoming passengers)

regards
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
RCS763AV
Posts: 3860
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:22 am

RE: Why No Brazilian Carrier At FCO?

Wed Aug 24, 2005 8:35 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 16):

I think Brazil is the country with the largest Italian immigrant community in the world.

Argentina?

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 16):
of which 15 million live in Sao Paulo area.

So 3/4 of SP´s population (whole area) is italian? Dont think so.
 
Avianca
Posts: 5375
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 5:33 am

RE: Why No Brazilian Carrier At FCO?

Wed Aug 24, 2005 8:38 am

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 23):
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 16):
of which 15 million live in Sao Paulo area.

So 3/4 of SP´s population (whole area) is italian? Dont think so.

maybe he mean the state of Sao Paulo, not the city.
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
bsbisland
Posts: 351
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2005 2:45 am

RE: Why No Brazilian Carrier At FCO?

Wed Aug 24, 2005 10:08 am

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 23):

Not 3/4, but 1/3 of inhabitants of São Paulo City are from Italian descendence. 23 million descendents in Brazil and 15 million in the state of São Paulo. Brazil has 27% of Italian descendents living around the world, more than Argentina. For sure Argentina has a bigger percentage, but in numbers not.

Rgs
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: Why No Brazilian Carrier At FCO?

Wed Aug 24, 2005 4:23 pm

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 23):
Argentina?

No, Brazilian has more than double the amount of Italian immigrants if compared to Argentina (Brazil has 25 million while Arentina 14 million). However, Argentina has a bigger percentage of Italian population (50% of Argentina's population), but Brazil has much more in total number (more than double).

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 23):
So 3/4 of SP´s population (whole area) is italian? Dont think so.

I meant the of Sao Paulo and not the city of Sao Paulo. 1/3 of the inhabitants of the State of Sao Paulo are of Italian origin, as pointed out by BSBIsland.

Quoting Wingedarrow (Reply 19):
TAM could be the suitable candidate to open soon here in FCO

In the past TAM had plans to open FCO, but the AZ-RG codeshare was one of the ways to remove TAM from the Italian market. At the time, TAM was seeking a codeshare with AZ, but AZ prefered RG since TAM's entrance in the Italian market would mean a third player, i.e. see the case of France with the AF-JJ partnership!!!!

Currently TAM has no plans for FCO or Italy. If it opens a new route in Europe the priority markets are ZRH and AMS (most probably as a tag-on to the CDG flights).

Rgs,

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