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JMJAirways
Topic Author
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Seatpich Regulation! To Small Pitch Unhealthy?

Wed Aug 24, 2005 12:23 am

Hey

I was thinking of something ever since I took a flight with Virgin in economy to JFK from LHR and back.

They have 31' pitch in economy and that is SMAL as hell! I am 6'3 tall and I almost can't fit in to the seat. Than imagine when the guy in front of you pulls back his seat, you just go    !!

I've heard that Thai has 34' pitch in economy. Now that is something!!

I think it would be appropriate to have a "rule" on flights over 4h (longhoul) that the pich in economy has to be at least 33'. Sitting in 31' for 7h is not so good. Yes I know some of you are thinking buy a businessticket and get 50'+, but I dont have the cash and the majority don't either. So therefore I think some kind of law or something for longhoul flights would be very good idea. (Or some other solution?)

I don't know this maybe sounds crazy but I prefer to have big pitch rather than a PTV, who can enjoy the IFE if you do not sit in a good position?

I just had to share this with you guys. Any thoughts ?

Best regards

[Edited 2005-08-23 17:26:33]
I am willing to pay extra for a A346 flight !
 
AirRyan
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RE: Seatpich Regulation! To Small Pitch Unhealthy?

Wed Aug 24, 2005 12:30 am

I agree - 31" is a cattle-car! I took a NWA A320 a few years ago from MSP to IAH and as soon as we rotated the guy in front of me fully reclined and I couldn't even get the table-tray down without hitting my knees - and I'm only 6'1"!
 
A340600
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RE: Seatpich Regulation! To Small Pitch Unhealthy?

Wed Aug 24, 2005 12:49 am

I'm 6 foot and have never really had a problem with this pitch. It is pretty standard in Europe and especially England, so travellers become accustomed to it. There will never be any rules to change it, at least for the forseeable future, this is seen as enough. Also, in the age where many airlines strive for money over pax comfort they can fit in more seats thus more money.

It is most certainly very nice when you get that little bit extra, even 32 inch makes a difference, but 31 seems to be the bog standard in many parts of Europe and I don't see it changing,

Cheers,

Sam
Despite the name I am a Boeing man through and through!
 
bwaflyer
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RE: Seatpich Regulation! To Small Pitch Unhealthy?

Wed Aug 24, 2005 1:07 am

Most UK charter airlines have a 28/29 inch seat pitch, and the CAA minimum is (I believe) 27 inches.
 
comorin
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RE: Seatpich Regulation! To Small Pitch Unhealthy?

Wed Aug 24, 2005 1:14 am

Right On!

This would be a case of government involvement that would be beneficial. If the 34" rule were applied to all long haul flights, then it would work.

If seat pitch increased from 31" to 34", then you would have 10% less seats, and you would have to charge 11% more to get the same revenue (assuming no elasticity). Airlines do have a premium economy section where you get this type of legroom, but its not worth the 50%-100% premium.

AA tried this unilaterally a while ago on all flights, but had to roll back eventually. For this to work, it would have to be a mandate that would affect all carriers.

It is interesting that Thai would do this, as the Thais themselves are of a small build! Also, both SQ and TG have 34" pitch on their ultra-longhauls to NYC, but they may be considered an economy plus fare (?).

Now once we get airlines to go to 34" pitch, next step is to go to 9-across seating. This will also result in another 10% loss in revenue. So would you like to fly in grand comfort at 25% higher prices? I most certainly would, but then, so would a lot of business class passengers! There is logic to keeping economy uncomfortable enough, so that Biz class revenues don't get cannibalized.


I guess in another 100 years, like Darwin's finches, we will probably evolve to fit into these small economy seats....
 
PanAm747
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RE: Seatpich Regulation! To Small Pitch Unhealthy?

Wed Aug 24, 2005 1:14 am

So, let's say the regulations are put in place...

And the fares go up as fewer "cheap" seats are made available.

And the American public rebels, demanding that this new regulation be done away with, so they can have their $99 coast-to-coast round trip fares back again.

Personally, I like your idea, but the travelling public would rather be crammed in like sardines to save a few bucks.
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JMJAirways
Topic Author
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RE: Seatpich Regulation! To Small Pitch Unhealthy?

Wed Aug 24, 2005 1:38 am

Quoting Comorin (Reply 4):
Now once we get airlines to go to 34" pitch, next step is to go to 9-across seating. This will also result in another 10% loss in revenue. So would you like to fly in grand comfort at 25% higher prices? I most certainly would, but then, so would a lot of business class passengers! There is logic to keeping economy uncomfortable enough, so that Biz class revenues don't get cannibalized.

You are right! The economical part of it, is very important! In these times with the oilprices it is impossible to think that they would increase the pitch.

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 5):
Personally, I like your idea, but the travelling public would rather be crammed in like sardines to save a few bucks.

YES!!! Unfortunately that's sad! Just look at LCC, they are making constant profit so you statement makes perfect sense.

Best regards
I am willing to pay extra for a A346 flight !
 
UN_B732
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RE: Seatpich Regulation! To Small Pitch Unhealthy?

Wed Aug 24, 2005 2:11 am

Also, look at United.. Does your average customer know about Economy Plus or use it to their advantage? (You can even get it assigned at the gate or at check-in as I understand it)
-Mr. X
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AirRyan
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RE: Seatpich Regulation! To Small Pitch Unhealthy?

Wed Aug 24, 2005 2:19 am

Quoting JMJAirways (Thread starter):
Sitting in 31' for 7h is not so good.

Not good for my "future kids" if you know what I mean!  Smile
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: Seatpich Regulation! To Small Pitch Unhealthy?

Wed Aug 24, 2005 2:22 am

I'm all for a 34" rule. Time to to get back to sanity.
 
RedChili
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RE: Seatpich Regulation! To Small Pitch Unhealthy?

Wed Aug 24, 2005 2:30 am

Quoting JMJAirways (Thread starter):
I was thinking of something ever since I took a flight with Virgin in economy to JFK from LHR and back.

Since you have a Swedish flag, I assume that you're living somewhere in Sweden. And advice for your next trip: Fly Malaysia from ARN to EWR. They have 34 inches also. And they are usually very cheap.

Quoting Comorin (Reply 4):
If seat pitch increased from 31" to 34", then you would have 10% less seats, and you would have to charge 11% more to get the same revenue

That would be true if the plane would always be 100 percent full, but as we all know, many planes often fly on 90, 80 or even 70 percent capacity. And if the airplane is only 90 percent full anyway, then you can take out 10 percent of all seats and still have the same fares.

Reducing the number of seats will also give you a possibility of carrying more cargo. And even on those few flights where you can fill a plane with more than 90 percent, you can maybe replace those pax with some cargo.

Summary: I don't think that a carrier needs to raise fares by 11 percent in order to reduce the number of seats with 10 percent. I think they would need to increase prices with maybe 4-5 percent.
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ManchesterMAN
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RE: Seatpich Regulation! To Small Pitch Unhealthy?

Wed Aug 24, 2005 3:01 am

I'd actually be very surprised if the VS seats on the A346 are as much as 31". They really are cramped and much worse than any other airline with proper 31" pitch. e.g. flew LGW-EWR on a CO 777 and back on a VS A346 (to LHR) and there is no way the pitch was the same. I think I've read somewere that VS seats are actually 30" pitch which would be more like it.

I don't agree that a limit should be set at 34" as proposed by the OP. At the end of the day the market will decide. Taking the transAtlantic routes there is plenty of competition and plenty of airline offering seat pitch superior to VS e.g. AA, US, AC, UA E+ (if you qualify) so just fly them instead. I actually enjoy flying Virgin for the service but UA get most of my business because I can get a 35/35" pitch for the same price.
Flown: A300,A319,A320,A321,A330,A340.A380,717,727,737,747,757,767,777,DC9,DC10,MD11,MD80,F100,F50,ERJ,E190,CRJ,BAe146,Da
 
Paul
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RE: Seatpich Regulation! To Small Pitch Unhealthy?

Wed Aug 24, 2005 4:01 am

I think Premim Economy is a fab idea. I normaly fly Business Long Haul, one 10 hour flight is bareble in Y. However when I jet off to Australia I refuse to fly economy, its a bloody joke how they cram you in. The only time I flew in Y to Aus I was 16 and with AZ who have the 34" pitch. Their IFE was terrible but the comfort was just about ok. But now I am 6ft 3inch and have shoulders wider than all economy seat. (swimming)

Besides you could fly with China Eastern to Aus in Business for £1100. And a considering a Y+ ticket with BA is £1800. I would rather fly in C. I know that China Eastern will probably lose your luggage, but hey Business to SYD for £1100. What a bargain! China Easterns seat pitch is 60inches in C. Thats pretty awesome, even for Business Class. The food will probably be good. If you like Chinese that is. IFE bit lame, so take a book and a CD player with your choice Vivaldi! lol

Paul
Veni, vidi, vici.
 
Lufthansa747
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RE: Seatpich Regulation! To Small Pitch Unhealthy?

Wed Aug 24, 2005 4:38 am

Quoting Comorin (Reply 4):
It is interesting that Thai would do this, as the Thais themselves are of a small build! Also, both SQ and TG have 34" pitch on their ultra-longhauls to NYC, but they may be considered an economy plus fare (?).

TG A345 regular Y has 36", premium 42".
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JMJAirways
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RE: Seatpich Regulation! To Small Pitch Unhealthy?

Wed Aug 24, 2005 5:30 am

Quoting RedChili (Reply 10):
Since you have a Swedish flag, I assume that you're living somewhere in Sweden. And advice for your next trip: Fly Malaysia from ARN to EWR. They have 34 inches also. And they are usually very cheap.

You are right but I live in Malmö that is some 20km from Kastrup (CPH) so I always fly from there.

Quoting RedChili (Reply 10):
That would be true if the plane would always be 100 percent full, but as we all know, many planes often fly on 90, 80 or even 70 percent capacity. And if the airplane is only 90 percent full anyway, then you can take out 10 percent of all seats and still have the same fares.

That is so correct!!! How many airlines has a loadfactor of 100% on their intercontinental routes ?

At least minimum 33' by all the larger airlines who are making profits and indeed do not have 100% loadfactor on longhoul all the time! So pulling out 2 rows or something would not hurt much!

Best regards

[Edited 2005-08-23 22:37:12]
I am willing to pay extra for a A346 flight !
 
ExPedia
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RE: Seatpich Regulation! To Small Pitch Unhealthy?

Wed Aug 24, 2005 6:01 am

While carriers do compete on product - of which seat pitch is a factor certainly - the reality is that the vast majority of them, and pax too, could not truly care less about increasing it. Yes, of course pax would like to get F seating for a GBP 99 LHR-HKG return if they could, but mostly they want to get where they are going as quickly and for as little as possible and get the tradeoff.

Carriers want max revenue, and a denser configuration is like printing free money. None of them are going to turn that down. I mean even SQ, a supposed star in service, has less room in Y than others in their league. Why? Because they can get away with it (no offense - it's brilliant that they do this and the very definition of why branding matters).

Put another way, why can charter carriers fill a 757 with 228 pax (with 28"-29" pitch) for a LGW-YVR run? It's non-stop and cheap.

Sure, the premium end of the market wants - and pays for - bells and whistles, but for the 95% plus of the global leisure market who fill the vast majority of seats, a demand for more pitch holds about as much water as an A380 offering a branch of Harrod's. Carriers know it: Non-stop and cheaper will pull 'em in every time.
-- ExPedia
 
imatams
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RE: Seatpich Regulation! To Small Pitch Unhealthy?

Wed Aug 24, 2005 6:51 am

Quoting ExPedia (Reply 15):
I mean even SQ, a supposed star in service, has less room in Y than others in their league

Been looking into SQ seat pitch lately since i'll be flying them to New Zealand soon. According to seatguru their long-haul 772ER's also have a 34' pitch, wich would make them equal to MH...
 
unitedgirlie
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RE: Seatpich Regulation! To Small Pitch Unhealthy?

Wed Aug 24, 2005 8:21 am

Don't AA claim to have a 34 inch pitch? if you are flying across the atlantic maybe look into them although I am sure on here they are cutting that back.
 
BAxMAN
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RE: Seatpich Regulation! To Small Pitch Unhealthy?

Wed Aug 24, 2005 9:14 am

Quoting JMJAirways (Thread starter):
They have 31' pitch in economy and that is SMAL as hell! I am 6'3 tall and I almost can't fit in to the seat. Than imagine when the guy in front of you pulls back his seat

Did a friendly looking guy with a beard and comfortable pullover force you at gunpoint to fly in economy on his airline? Did he forbid you from paying for a bit more room in Premium Economy or Upper Class?

This sort of action would be most contrary to Sir Beard's usual public persona.

Quoting JMJAirways (Reply 14):
How many airlines has a loadfactor of 100% on their intercontinental routes ?

Many BA flights go with 100% of their seats filled, particularly during Summer. The same is undoubtedly true of many other carriers during Summer and certain other routes. This is why bumping is a fairly common occurence at airports.
Mild green Fairy liquid
 
A340600
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RE: Seatpich Regulation! To Small Pitch Unhealthy?

Wed Aug 24, 2005 9:27 am

Quoting Bwaflyer (Reply 3):
Most UK charter airlines have a 28/29 inch seat pitch, and the CAA minimum is (I believe) 27 inches.

I thoughtb it was 26, though imagining this horrifies me beyond belief. Don't BY have 28 inch even on their longhauls?

Quoting Unitedgirlie (Reply 17):
Don't AA claim to have a 34 inch pitch? if you are flying across the atlantic maybe look into them although I am sure on here they are cutting that back.

The 'More Room in Coach' feature has been stopped recently and is being ridden of,

Cheers,

Sam Smile
Despite the name I am a Boeing man through and through!
 
Bobster2
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RE: Seatpich Regulation! To Small Pitch Unhealthy?

Wed Aug 24, 2005 9:31 am

You know what really bugs me? People routinely pay $50 to $200 for roundtrip taxi fares to the airport (at least in New York they do) to take flights that cost less than the taxi fare. Why aren't these same people willing to pay a little more to the airlines for more comfortable seats with better seatpitch? I just don't get it. These people refuse to fly if the fare is over $100, so they wait until the airlines offer a super low bargain fare, then they pay $200 for the taxi and we all have suffer with 31" seatpitch as a result.
"I tell you this, no eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn." Jim Morrison
 
unitedgirlie
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RE: Seatpich Regulation! To Small Pitch Unhealthy?

Wed Aug 24, 2005 9:35 am

Quoting BAxMAN (Reply 18):
Did a friendly looking guy with a beard and comfortable pullover force you at gunpoint to fly in economy on his airline? Did he forbid you from paying for a bit more room in Premium Economy or Upper Class?

that guy sure gets around, he was at heathrow last week making some guy fly in economy who had a blood clot and was going to sue when he died (yep work that out) if he didn't get into business because he had a doctors note saying he had the blood clot....whats that sir you have a letter saying you are unfit to travel?....which suddenly became a letter that he was fit to travel.....oh ok sir so you dont have a medical condition after all?

wouldn't have minded all this fairytale to get extra legroom had he actually been tall enough to see over the check in desk!!
 
Indy
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RE: Seatpich Regulation! To Small Pitch Unhealthy?

Wed Aug 24, 2005 9:40 am

I'm all for a 34" pitch minimum and 18" wide seat. Planes will fill up faster which would allow the airlines to charge higher prices. There are some that will complain. There are some that complain about everything. Some people are so cheap they feel $99 coast to coast is high. You will never satisfy them. For them I say... DRIVE. When it comes to passenger comfort airlines have proven over and over that profit comes before comfort. This is the only way to keep pitches reasonable. Just about every part of aviation is regulated. There are limits to how long pilots can fly. There are requirements for mechanics. Why not make a requirement for seats? People will just have to get over the 11% increase in prices. The prices would still be low.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
ltbewr
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RE: Seatpich Regulation! To Small Pitch Unhealthy?

Wed Aug 24, 2005 10:02 am

Some balance should be made as to seat pitch. People are larger in height and weight now than 40 years ago. Airbus was smart enough to make their a/c so larger across the hips, also an important consideration. The charter pitch for long distance (27-29") is way too tight not only for personal health, but has to be a safety risk in case of an emergency incident. I would like to see a mimimum of 31" for flights operating less than 4 hours, 33" for more than 4 hours and 35" for flights more than 8 hours.
 
chrisrad
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RE: Seatpich Regulation! To Small Pitch Unhealthy?

Wed Aug 24, 2005 10:16 am

Quoting IMatAMS (Reply 16):
Been looking into SQ seat pitch lately since i'll be flying them to New Zealand soon. According to seatguru their long-haul 772ER's also have a 34' pitch, wich would make them equal to MH...

I think you'll find SQ 772's have 33" pitch, so therefore MH still have the upper hand in most area's
Welcome aboard Malaysia Airlines! Winner of Best Cabin Staff 2001,2002,2003,2004,2007,2009,2012
 
RedChili
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RE: Seatpich Regulation! To Small Pitch Unhealthy?

Wed Aug 24, 2005 3:28 pm

Quoting IMatAMS (Reply 16):
Been looking into SQ seat pitch lately since i'll be flying them to New Zealand soon. According to seatguru their long-haul 772ER's also have a 34' pitch, wich would make them equal to MH...

Well, according to SeatGuru, SQ has 34 inches on all B772ER used on long haul flights, but they have 32 inches on all 744 and all 777 used in Asia.
Top 10 airplanes: B737, T154, B747, IL96, T134, IL62, A320, MD80, B757, DC10
 
JMJAirways
Topic Author
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RE: Seatpich Regulation! To Small Pitch Unhealthy?

Wed Aug 24, 2005 9:45 pm

Quoting Indy (Reply 22):
Just about every part of aviation is regulated. There are limits to how long pilots can fly. There are requirements for mechanics. Why not make a requirement for seats? People will just have to get over the 11% increase in prices. The prices would still be low.

I agree, this is a health issue. They even have regulations for animal transport, how big the spece has to be and so on! So why not for passengers ?

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 23):
I would like to see a mimimum of 31" for flights operating less than 4 hours, 33" for more than 4 hours and 35" for flights more than 8 hours.

You get my vote !


Can anybody tell me how many seats you have to pull out from a VS A346 Economy to have 33' ? (now 31' ! SO they say )

Best regards
I am willing to pay extra for a A346 flight !
 
chrisrad
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RE: Seatpich Regulation! To Small Pitch Unhealthy?

Wed Aug 24, 2005 10:29 pm

Quoting RedChili (Reply 25):
Quoting IMatAMS (Reply 16):Been looking into SQ seat pitch lately since i'll be flying them to New Zealand soon. According to seatguru their long-haul 772ER's also have a 34' pitch, wich would make them equal to MH...
Well, according to SeatGuru, SQ has 34 inches on all B772ER used on long haul flights, but they have 32 inches on all 744 and all 777 used in Asia.

I don't belive seatguru is correct, I have seen the figures before, but escapes me now, and the SQ webpage doesn't list the pitches any more.
Welcome aboard Malaysia Airlines! Winner of Best Cabin Staff 2001,2002,2003,2004,2007,2009,2012
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Seatpich Regulation! To Small Pitch Unhealthy?

Wed Aug 24, 2005 10:44 pm

You get what you pay for.

While I agree that 30 or less is inhuman, tens of thousands of LCC and charter travelers each year say I'm wrong.

Government intervention is a bad idea. Imagina how much the law would cost to implement in bureaucracy, oversight, paperwork. Why create a rule when it's pretty much self regulating? If an airline makes the seats too small, a number of people will choose to take their business elsewhere. Problem solved.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
ke086
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RE: Seatpich Regulation! To Small Pitch Unhealthy?

Wed Aug 24, 2005 11:16 pm

The old korean air had a seat pitch of 34 inches but now the new interior that just came out are now offering economy passanger 38 inches thats more than some premium economy classes provide!!!!!!!!!!
KE THE ONLY WAY TO FLY
 
Paul
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RE: Seatpich Regulation! To Small Pitch Unhealthy?

Thu Aug 25, 2005 2:42 am

I have an idea.

Surely it would be wise for a separate regulation to be enforced on LCC's and then Sheduled Carriers. LCC on longhaul rely on smaller pitches to maximize passengers loads. If the standard pitch increased then LCC that offer long haul; Air Atlanta, Thompson, First Choice, etc would just be screwed.

The standard seat pitch should be changed to 34inches, but realistically it would be more like 33inches because the airlines would bitch til the cows came home. In addition we could say that no airline would offer more than 34inches because they would cut margins per flight even further. Now all airlines would be competing more so than before because they would all have the same Y pitch. No doubt this would result in prices only increasing slightly because the airlines would not want to risk becoming uncompetitive!

Paul
Veni, vidi, vici.
 
satx
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RE: Seatpich Regulation! To Small Pitch Unhealthy?

Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:36 am

Quoting Comorin (Reply 4):
AA tried this unilaterally a while ago on all flights, but had to roll back eventually. For this to work, it would have to be a mandate that would affect all carriers.

I believe this started with TWA, which was then bought by AA, who didn't really advertise it enough for most folks I know to become aware of it, and then dropped it supposedly due to lack of demand. Never mind that the whole market was way down during most of this period due to unrelated events and circumstances.

Quoting Comorin (Reply 4):
It is interesting that Thai would do this, as the Thais themselves are of a small build!

Regardless of why, it's a great selling point. I've flown TG on the 747 and A300. The interiors looked really dated, including the rudimentary IFE, but the service was fine and the food was the best I've ever had on an airplane. Now that they're starting to replace flights from the east and west coast with A345's I'm thinking of trying them again.

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 5):
Personally, I like your idea, but the travelling public would rather be crammed in like sardines to save a few bucks.

I think the 'traveling public' probably has no clue that seat pitch varies considerably from one airline to the next.

Quoting JMJAirways (Reply 6):

You are right! The economical part of it, is very important! In these times with the oilprices it is impossible to think that they would increase the pitch.

How do you explain those healthy airlines that have 32-33" pitch?

Quoting JMJAirways (Reply 6):
YES!!! Unfortunately that's sad! Just look at LCC, they are making constant profit so you statement makes perfect sense.

Don't Southwest, jetBlue, Frontier, have 32-33" pitch?

Quoting Lufthansa747 (Reply 13):
TG A345 regular Y has 36", premium 42".

Awesome - and that's just what you need when you're on a 17-hour flight!

Quoting ExPedia (Reply 15):
Put another way, why can charter carriers fill a 757 with 228 pax (with 28"-29" pitch) for a LGW-YVR run? It's non-stop and cheap.

I don't think I have never been on a flight with less than 31" pitch. I have no idea how tall folks could ever stand that, let alone any less.

Quoting Unitedgirlie (Reply 17):
Don't AA claim to have a 34 inch pitch? if you are flying across the atlantic maybe look into them although I am sure on here they are cutting that back.

They used to have MRTC ('More Room Throughout Coach') and it was GREAT! Now they don't, and they've lost me as a consistent customer.

Quoting Chrisrad (Reply 24):
I think you'll find SQ 772's have 33" pitch, so therefore MH still have the upper hand in most area's

33" is fine for short-haul, but for long-haul every extra inch really counts.

Quoting Chrisrad (Reply 27):
I don't belive seatguru is correct

True. Sometimes they're off by at least a bit. Also, sometimes the seat pitch doesn't tell the whole story.

Quoting KE086 (Reply 29):
The old korean air had a seat pitch of 34 inches but now the new interior that just came out are now offering economy passanger 38 inches thats more than some premium economy classes provide!

Thanks! I'll add Korean to my list of airlines to consider.
A300 319 320 321 332 333 388 B727 732 733 735 737 738 739 742 743 744 752 753 763 764 772 77E 77L 773 77W 788 789 C200 700 900 DHC2 DC9 E145 170 175 190 F100 MD81 82 83 87 88 90 | 38 Lines 44 Craft 58 Ports
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Seatpich Regulation! To Small Pitch Unhealthy?

Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:41 am

Quoting Paul (Reply 30):
Surely it would be wise for a separate regulation to be enforced on LCC's and then Sheduled Carriers. LCC on longhaul rely on smaller pitches to maximize passengers loads. If the standard pitch increased then LCC that offer long haul; Air Atlanta, Thompson, First Choice, etc would just be screwed.

The standard seat pitch should be changed to 34inches, but realistically it would be more like 33inches because the airlines would bitch til the cows came home. In addition we could say that no airline would offer more than 34inches because they would cut margins per flight even further. Now all airlines would be competing more so than before because they would all have the same Y pitch. No doubt this would result in prices only increasing slightly because the airlines would not want to risk becoming uncompetitive!

I am still very much against regulation in areas where it isn't needed. Don't we
have enough laws about pointless things? Let the regulations be about relevant stuff, like safety.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
RedChili
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RE: Seatpich Regulation! To Small Pitch Unhealthy?

Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:48 am

Quoting KE086 (Reply 29):
The old korean air had a seat pitch of 34 inches but now the new interior that just came out are now offering economy passanger 38 inches thats more than some premium economy classes provide!!!!!!!!!!

Are you sure about this? Do you have a source? If so, I would definitely like to make KE my favourite carrier in the future!
Top 10 airplanes: B737, T154, B747, IL96, T134, IL62, A320, MD80, B757, DC10
 
Slcpilot
Posts: 614
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 3:32 am

RE: Seatpich Regulation! To Small Pitch Unhealthy?

Thu Aug 25, 2005 8:08 am

Starlionblue is spot on.

I do not believe regulating comfort is a role of government. Safety? Sure! Unchecked captialism? Sure! But not having a little more room in front of your face.

If most of us closed our eyes, we wouldn't know if there's ten or fifty inches in front of our face.

SLCPilot
I don't like to be fueled by anger, I don't like to be fooled by lust...
 
satx
Posts: 2781
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2005 7:26 am

RE: Seatpich Regulation! To Small Pitch Unhealthy?

Thu Aug 25, 2005 8:11 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 32):
Let the regulations be about relevant stuff, like safety.

DVT - Why not error on the side of caution?!
A300 319 320 321 332 333 388 B727 732 733 735 737 738 739 742 743 744 752 753 763 764 772 77E 77L 773 77W 788 789 C200 700 900 DHC2 DC9 E145 170 175 190 F100 MD81 82 83 87 88 90 | 38 Lines 44 Craft 58 Ports
 
gipper913
Posts: 172
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RE: Seatpich Regulation! To Small Pitch Unhealthy?

Thu Aug 25, 2005 8:32 am

Quoting JMJAirways (Thread starter):
Yes I know some of you are thinking buy a businessticket and get 50'+, but I dont have the cash and the majority don't either. So therefore I think some kind of law or something for longhoul flights would be very good idea. (Or some other solution?)

I'm sorry, but it's a marketplace and you get what you pay for. If you want the guaranteed extra pitch so much, buy the biz or FC ticket. If not, comparison shop airlines on the route you are flying for best seat pitch. And/or get elite status or show up to the airport early to snag exit row seating.

I too hate the 31 inch pitch on long hauls (nothing worse than an AA 757 transcon or to Hawaii in coach) but I know what I am getting ahead of time and will comparison shop for other alternatives and/or do everything I can for an exit row. Example: will be flying from LAX on an AA 757 in Y to LIH (Kauai, HI) for Thanksgiving week. Usually, I would pick an airline and/or a/c with better seat pitch, but these are award seats and are the only nonstop flights.

But, for Xmas, will fly JetBlue transcon to JFK from LGB (where back of plane - row 13 onward - has 34" pitch and exit rows with even greater pitch can be pre-assigned) rather than being stuffed into the no-longer MRTC on AA. Thus I have an exit row transcon already.

In both cases, as a consumer in a free market, I informed myself, weighed my options and purchased accordingly.

The informed consumer has many choices and options to weigh. But if you buy coach on an airline and a/c with minimal pitch and fail to get an exit row or upgrade...well, caveat emptor.

LAST thing we need is some new layer of governmental bureaucracy checking seat pitches.

[Edited 2005-08-25 01:48:54]
The size of the federal budget is not an appropriate barometer of social conscience or charitable concern. --R. Reagan
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13899
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Seatpich Regulation! To Small Pitch Unhealthy?

Thu Aug 25, 2005 8:33 am

Yes, it is unhealthy, especially for the mechanics, who have to crawl in between the seats to install them. If he seat pitch is too small, you´ll have to be a contortionist to get in between them. The same applies to checking life jackets or checking IFE connections.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
ExPedia
Posts: 49
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2005 10:37 am

RE: Seatpich Regulation! To Small Pitch Unhealthy?

Thu Aug 25, 2005 11:02 am

Gipper's nailed it - pretty much as I said above. Look, everybody would like F seating at Q pricing, but life doesn't work that way. Carriers are not going to leave free revenue on the table if travellers continue to demonstrate that they don't value (e.g. pay more for or choose more often) a carrier that offers greater pitch.

85-90% of pax simply don't care *enough* to put their money where their "gee wouldn't that be nice" is, and carriers know it.
-- ExPedia
 
aa757first
Posts: 3140
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2003 11:40 am

RE: Seatpich Regulation! To Small Pitch Unhealthy?

Thu Aug 25, 2005 11:14 am

Quoting SATX (Reply 35):
DVT - Why not error on the side of caution?!

There are exercises you can do in the in-flight magazine or on your PTV.

AAndrew
 
JMJAirways
Topic Author
Posts: 208
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 8:05 am

RE: Seatpich Regulation! To Small Pitch Unhealthy?

Thu Aug 25, 2005 9:43 pm

Hey!

Many good points... And many of you don't want any new rules, laws and etc... But what about this ? (may sound crazy but it is just an idea).

What if governments where the airline is "registered" lowered the taxes for airlines who have pich above 34'. That way the airline don't need to increase the price so much and the loadfactor would be greater. So there will be more (maybe) pax who pay the regular taxes to the airport (government) no one is the looser !? This will make some airlines to increase their pich wanting taxrelifes (after economical evaluation of course)

Just a thought !

Best regards
I am willing to pay extra for a A346 flight !
 
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Starlionblue
Posts: 20004
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RE: Seatpich Regulation! To Small Pitch Unhealthy?

Thu Aug 25, 2005 9:59 pm

Quoting SATX (Reply 35):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 32):
Let the regulations be about relevant stuff, like safety.

DVT - Why not error on the side of caution?!

As Aa757First says, there are exercises you can do. If the authorities were called in to regulate every risky activity, we would not be allowed to cross the street.

Quoting JMJAirways (Reply 40):

What if governments where the airline is "registered" lowered the taxes for airlines who have pich above 34'. That way the airline don't need to increase the price so much and the loadfactor would be greater. So there will be more (maybe) pax who pay the regular taxes to the airport (government) no one is the looser !? This will make some airlines to increase their pich wanting taxrelifes (after economical evaluation of course)

Isn't it easier to just have airlines charge more for more space? But wait! They already do that!

You are just skewing the microeconomics with your idea. And who decides how much pitch is enough? There are enough badly working schemes like this for stuff that is actually important, like pollution.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
satx
Posts: 2781
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2005 7:26 am

RE: Seatpich Regulation! To Small Pitch Unhealthy?

Fri Aug 26, 2005 2:50 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 41):
If the authorities were called in to regulate every risky activity, we would not be allowed to cross the street.

No need to be facetious. There is no rule that says we must either have everything heavily regulated or nothing at all.

I'm not suggesting that every flight needs to have 34" pitch.

0 - 3 hours, 31"
3.1 - 6 hours, 32"
6.1 - 8 hours, 33"
8.1+ hours, 34"

How about something like that? Well, it doesn't really matter because this is never going to happen anyway. However, I'm okay with it because I still have options, at least among US and Asian carriers. I'm not so sure about those European coach sections though. They look like hell to me.
A300 319 320 321 332 333 388 B727 732 733 735 737 738 739 742 743 744 752 753 763 764 772 77E 77L 773 77W 788 789 C200 700 900 DHC2 DC9 E145 170 175 190 F100 MD81 82 83 87 88 90 | 38 Lines 44 Craft 58 Ports
 
JMJAirways
Topic Author
Posts: 208
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 8:05 am

RE: Seatpich Regulation! To Small Pitch Unhealthy?

Fri Aug 26, 2005 3:28 am

Quoting SATX (Reply 42):
0 - 3 hours, 31"
3.1 - 6 hours, 32"
6.1 - 8 hours, 33"
8.1+ hours, 34"

Works for me! But as you say nothing of this is likely to happen any time soon!

Best regards!
I am willing to pay extra for a A346 flight !
 
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Starlionblue
Posts: 20004
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RE: Seatpich Regulation! To Small Pitch Unhealthy?

Fri Aug 26, 2005 3:51 am

[quote=SATX,reply=42]Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 41):
If the authorities were called in to regulate every risky activity, we would not be allowed to cross the street.

No need to be facetious. There is no rule that says we must either have everything heavily regulated or nothing at all.

Sorry if you took it as being facetious. It's my honest opinion. Too much regulation stifles the market. Some regulation is necessary, but if you can avoid it, then why not do so? It's simple. If the customers feel that seat pitch is too small, they are free to take their business elsewhere.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
KUGN
Posts: 606
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2000 4:36 am

RE: Seatpich Regulation! To Small Pitch Unhealthy?

Fri Aug 26, 2005 4:40 am

The last thing the airline industry needs is more goverment involvment and segment-seat-size regulation. Trusting politicians running airlines?

Let the marketplace regulate seat size, as it has been in the recent years. The experiments failed, paying customers have decided that they preffer lower fares to the seat pitch. No new regulation needed.
 
highflyer9790
Posts: 1189
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2005 1:21 am

RE: Seatpich Regulation! To Small Pitch Unhealthy?

Fri Aug 26, 2005 4:52 am

OK, even though im an experienced aviation person, ive always wondered what seat pitch is!!! I always thought its was relcline but then i found out it isn't...please help!!
121
 
mtnmanmakalu
Posts: 493
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2004 1:47 pm

RE: Seatpich Regulation! To Small Pitch Unhealthy?

Fri Aug 26, 2005 4:58 am

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 5):
Personally, I like your idea, but the travelling public would rather be crammed in like sardines to save a few bucks.

Amen.... Complain about the fares, complain there are no meals, complain about the seat pitch- bitch, bitch, bitch!! You get what you pay for- Welcome to Wal-Mart Airways!!!

mtnman  crazy 
I do, I don't, whatever.......
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 20004
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

RE: Seatpich Regulation! To Small Pitch Unhealthy?

Fri Aug 26, 2005 6:07 am

Quoting HighFlyer9790 (Reply 46):
OK, even though im an experienced aviation person, ive always wondered what seat pitch is!!! I always thought its was relcline but then i found out it isn't...please help!!

The distance between seats along the length of the plane. So if the pitch is 32", that's the distance from the aft end of your seat to the aft end of the seat in front of you. More pitch=more legroom.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
JMJAirways
Topic Author
Posts: 208
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 8:05 am

RE: Seatpich Regulation! To Small Pitch Unhealthy?

Fri Aug 26, 2005 7:20 am

Quoting Mtnmanmakalu (Reply 47):
Welcome to Wal-Mart Airways!!!

This one says it all! Very Good mtnman !


Best regards
I am willing to pay extra for a A346 flight !

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