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6thfreedom
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QF Changes To A333 For BOM

Mon Aug 29, 2005 9:25 am

According to the QF timetable, the SYD-BOM service will change from 450 seat B743 to a 297 seat A333 in the new year.

The SYD-BOM sector will refuel in Darwin [tech stop], while the BOM-SYD sector will remain non-stop.

Quite surprising QF didn't hold off making this change until March, as Nov-Feb is peak season and that could off easily filled these seats.
 
airnewzealand
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RE: QF Changes To A333 For BOM

Mon Aug 29, 2005 9:51 am

While i operate this flight quite often, it is rarely full, and usually only has around 150-190pax onboard.

But the Airbus for such a long flight? This is horrible. We have a rough time as it is on the PVG route with this aircraft. Run out of food as soon as we have done the first bar service. No storage what so ever!

Cheers
AirNewZealand
 
6thfreedom
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RE: QF Changes To A333 For BOM

Mon Aug 29, 2005 11:14 am

While the A333 doesn't have the range SYD-BOM, would an A332 do the job??

12 hours is a long long way for a non-stop A333 service.
 
gigneil
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RE: QF Changes To A333 For BOM

Mon Aug 29, 2005 11:39 am

Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 2):
While the A333 doesn't have the range SYD-BOM, would an A332 do the job??

SYD-BOM is indeed far for an A330-303.

N
 
gardermoen
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RE: QF Changes To A333 For BOM

Mon Aug 29, 2005 12:48 pm

I havent seen this loaded on to the QF web site yet..

However, if this is true...a tech stop in Darwin??
Wouldn't it make more sense to route it via Perth or Singapore, and pick up pax en route?
The A330 does seem a better match for the loads on this route. I really believe QF could do so much better in India if they looked at Chennai or Bangalore (possible AO destinations). There is a huge south India-Aust/NZ market to tap into as well.
Also, what is QFs reputation in India? I dont think it is seen as a carrier of choice. Most pax prefer MH or SQ via their respective hubs.
 
Airbus A3XX
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RE: QF Changes To A333 For BOM

Mon Aug 29, 2005 2:01 pm

Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 2):
While the A333 doesn't have the range SYD-BOM, would an A332 do the job??

12 hours is a long long way for a non-stop A333 service.

They can't do it on their A330-200s because the A332s used by QF are of lighter weight version with thinner floors which cannot hold their Skybeds (QF Business Class) seats without any major conversions.
 
6thfreedom
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RE: QF Changes To A333 For BOM

Mon Aug 29, 2005 2:16 pm

Quoting Gardermoen (Reply 4):
Wouldn't it make more sense to route it via Perth or Singapore, and pick up pax en route?

I would have suggested MEL-BKK-India, with the service offering connections with QF and BA services SYD-BKK-LHR.

QF has no MEL-BKK services at present, so they could have killed 2 birds with the one stone... This would have helped with year round profitability as well...
 
Sydscott
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RE: QF Changes To A333 For BOM

Mon Aug 29, 2005 2:25 pm

Quoting Airbus A3XX (Reply 5):
They can't do it on their A330-200s because the A332s used by QF are of lighter weight version with thinner floors which cannot hold their Skybeds (QF Business Class) seats without any major conversions.

Which by all reports QF are now doing. So if loads continue like this we may well see the A332 deployed.
 
United Airline
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RE: QF Changes To A333 For BOM

Mon Aug 29, 2005 2:36 pm

Loads aren't good I suppose?

So where will they deploy the current B 747-300 aircraft to?
 
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VirginFlyer
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RE: QF Changes To A333 For BOM

Mon Aug 29, 2005 2:41 pm

Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 2):
While the A333 doesn't have the range SYD-BOM, would an A332 do the job??


More importantly than the SkyBed issue, the A330-200s have been certified to a lower MTOW (in order to reduce airways charges), and thus can't be flown on long range routes. I guess they could be re-certified, but obviously there are disadvantages to that - especially when you can't fit them with the standard long-haul product...

V/F
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6thfreedom
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RE: QF Changes To A333 For BOM

Mon Aug 29, 2005 3:12 pm

Quoting United Airline (Reply 8):
Loads aren't good I suppose?

According to BTRE...
QF loads between Sept and Dec 2004,
59% inbound, 76 % outbound

for 2005...
Jan - 78% inbound, 49% outbound
Feb - 65% and 51%
Mar - 48% and 44%
Apr - 59% and 49%

So at an average of say 50%, that's 225 pax per flight. Makes sense to switch to a 297 seat A333.

Quoting United Airline (Reply 8):
So where will they deploy the current B 747-300 aircraft to?

NRT, JNB, CHC, AKL, BNE-LAX, MNL, HNL,
 
United Airline
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RE: QF Changes To A333 For BOM

Mon Aug 29, 2005 3:37 pm

Interesting... Do they still fly domestic?

BNE-LAX gets B 747-300s????
 
trex8
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RE: QF Changes To A333 For BOM

Mon Aug 29, 2005 8:39 pm

thats 5500nm one way!! can their A330-303, non X, do that even with limited payload??? how much further does the X variant give you in range over a non X variant A330??
 
747400F
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RE: QF Changes To A333 For BOM

Mon Aug 29, 2005 9:22 pm

Quoting AirNewZealand (Reply 1):
We have a rough time as it is on the PVG route with this aircraft.

I have recently had the PLEASURE of flying PVG-SYD on the 330-300 from a pax point of view, a flight could not be better than that in economy
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ClassicLover
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RE: QF Changes To A333 For BOM

Mon Aug 29, 2005 10:54 pm

Quoting 6thfreedom (Thread starter):
Quite surprising QF didn't hold off making this change until March, as Nov-Feb is peak season and that could off easily filled these seats.

I just love it when people post without checking any figures. How do you know they could have easily filled those seats? Are you a QF traffic forecaster?

Judging by the other replies, it seems QF is using good sense in changing the aircraft type.

Isn't this one of the markets that all the a.net people say is massive and huge and growing and why isn't QF serving every city in India? Doesn't look so huge to me.

Trent.
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keesje
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RE: QF Changes To A333 For BOM

Tue Aug 30, 2005 12:49 am

Seems to me Qantas didn't make the right choices, they appear to have second thoughts on how to best use their A330 fleet.

Makes it likely Qantas will look at the B777-200ER and A350-900, which ever suits them best in terms of (fuel/purchasing) costs/capabilities.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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ClassicLover
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RE: QF Changes To A333 For BOM

Tue Aug 30, 2005 1:14 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 15):
Seems to me Qantas didn't make the right choices, they appear to have second thoughts on how to best use their A330 fleet.

I don't think so. It's more a case of using appropriate aircraft for appropriate routes. The pax load makes the 330 on these routes a better choice.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 15):
Makes it likely Qantas will look at the B777-200ER and A350-900, which ever suits them best in terms of (fuel/purchasing) costs/capabilities.

Well, they have already stated they are looking at A345 and 777, and A350 and 787.

Trent.
I do enjoy a spot of flying, especially when it's not in economy!
 
karan69
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RE: QF Changes To A333 For BOM

Tue Aug 30, 2005 3:20 am

I was really looking to flying one of their classics non-stop,

The A333 would be making a tech stop at Darwin, how much longer would that make the duration of the flight

Altough i am dissapointed but considering the loads on these flights the A333 seems to be the best option to go for.

Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 6):
would have suggested MEL-BKK-India, with the service offering connections with QF and BA services SYD-BKK-LHR.

QF has no MEL-BKK services at present, so they could have killed 2 birds with the one stone... This would have helped with year round profitability as well...

That would be a good idea as far as QF is concerned only fact BKK-BOM already has daily flights from IC and TG not to mention the 4x weekly frequencies from CX and AI.
It would be a good alternative to do Australia-HKG-BOM considering HKG-BOM does not have a non-stop flight.
 
SA7700
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RE: QF Changes To A333 For BOM

Tue Aug 30, 2005 4:05 am

Quoting United Airline (Reply 8):
So where will they deploy the current B 747-300 aircraft to?



Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 10):
NRT, JNB, CHC, AKL, BNE-LAX, MNL, HNL,

Have you got any reliable source backing this up or is it speculation?


Rgds

SA7700
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boysteve
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RE: QF Changes To A333 For BOM

Tue Aug 30, 2005 6:10 am

Quoting AirNewZealand (Reply 1):
But the Airbus for such a long flight? This is horrible. We have a rough time as it is on the PVG route with this aircraft. Run out of food as soon as we have done the first bar service. No storage what so ever!

Dare I suggest that this is because of the floor layout that QF have specified, rather than a fault with the Airbus itself
 
airish
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RE: QF Changes To A333 For BOM

Tue Aug 30, 2005 6:19 am

This move by QF will help AI when it starts SYD as there will be no non-stop flight due to the Darwin tech stop.

Also QF will be hurt even more when AI starts. AI might be able to offer a one stop flight from more than one destination in India if was to route its flights via somewhere like SIN or operate them direct from BOM.
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TBCITDG
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RE: QF Changes To A333 For BOM

Tue Aug 30, 2005 6:54 am

IMO the only reason that QF has not started operations to other cities in India is due to a lack of aircraft not because they are not making any money between both countries.
As far as loads are concerned would there be any weight restrictions on the SYD-BOM leg? And if so, why not put a two class 744 fitted with sky bed?
 
6thfreedom
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RE: QF Changes To A333 For BOM

Tue Aug 30, 2005 8:29 am

Quoting SA7700 (Reply 18):
Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 10):
NRT, JNB, CHC, AKL, BNE-LAX, MNL, HNL,

Have you got any reliable source backing this up or is it speculation?

Yes, the Qantas website.
If you put in travel dates from January onwards, you will see which aircraft operate on the sector.
Not sure if the PDF timetable has been updated, but the electronic one seems to be 'real time'.
QF 45 SYd-CHC shows B743 on servtain days of the week... as do the other sectors.
 
zeekiel
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RE: QF Changes To A333 For BOM

Tue Aug 30, 2005 11:47 am

Quoting TBCITDG (Reply 21):
As far as loads are concerned would there be any weight restrictions on the SYD-BOM leg? And if so, why not put a two class 744 fitted with sky bed?

Most of the two class 744's are either doing FRA and LAX routes. I wonder if there are any spares in the shed? Probably not.

Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 22):
Yes, the Qantas website.

I second that. If you look it up you will find the equipment changes on some routes for some days. Qantas have done it for years. The 743 has been a regular fixture on the QF43/44 routing for years but has since had 763's pick up some of the days. I have travelled on the 743 from SYD-NRT and SYD-HNL.

So the 743 remains a steady workhorse on the routes that she does serve.

Cheers

Zeekiel
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6thfreedom
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RE: QF Changes To A333 For BOM

Tue Aug 30, 2005 11:55 am

Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 14):
I just love it when people post without checking any figures. How do you know they could have easily filled those seats? Are you a QF traffic forecaster?

The BTRE data indicates that Nov-Feb are peak period of travel between Nov and February. I'm sure our freinds in the sub-continent could further support this.

Quoting Airish (Reply 20):
Also QF will be hurt even more when AI starts. AI might be able to offer a one stop flight from more than one destination in India if was to route its flights via somewhere like SIN or operate them direct from BOM.

This also the raises the question... would QF be better off operating the A333 non-stop in both direction between SYD and either Bangalore or Chennai, and then link up with either Jet or Air Sahara to provide feed onto the domestic network? The service because a one-stop for many destinations, but at the same time opens up feed opportunities.
 
HKGKaiTak
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RE: QF Changes To A333 For BOM

Tue Aug 30, 2005 12:35 pm

The 333 makes sense based on present and projected loadings ... but ...

With such a huge Indian population in Australia you'd have thought business & VFR traffic would be quite huge, not to mention India's increasing popularity as a tourist destination - and there's plenty of Indian tourists coming to Australia too ...

Why then is QF the only airline offering a direct service? Is it because the Indian population is spread out over India and it is difficult to get domestic feed to gateway cities like DEL and BOM? Is it just easier and much cheaper for pax to go with an SQ or MH and fly direct from home city to SIN or KUL for a connecting flight to Australia?
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6thfreedom
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RE: QF Changes To A333 For BOM

Tue Aug 30, 2005 12:59 pm

Quoting HKGKaiTak (Reply 25):
Why then is QF the only airline offering a direct service? Is it because the Indian population is spread out over India and it is difficult to get domestic feed to gateway cities like DEL and BOM? Is it just easier and much cheaper for pax to go with an SQ or MH and fly direct from home city to SIN or KUL for a connecting flight to Australia?

Unless you are travelling between SYD and BOM only, QF services require a lot of backtracking, terminal changing, and are a pain...

As I stated earlier, serving a south/east Indian city, and working with either 9W or S2 would make more sense.

SQ and MH serve multiple points in India, and have direct services to PER, ADL, BNE, MEL and SYD.

"Anywhere" in India to Australia one-stop via KUL or SIN, or 2 stops via SYD and BOM with QF??

HHmmmm... the choice isn't so difficult...
 
Sydscott
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RE: QF Changes To A333 For BOM

Tue Aug 30, 2005 1:42 pm

Quoting HKGKaiTak (Reply 25):
With such a huge Indian population in Australia you'd have thought business & VFR traffic would be quite huge, not to mention India's increasing popularity as a tourist destination - and there's plenty of Indian tourists coming to Australia too ...

You'd have thought the same about service from Melbourne to Greece as well but you don't see anyone flying between them. The problem with India is twofold;

1) The biggest export item India provides to Australia is service oriented not goods oriented. Most of the services are sold through intermediaries already here in Australia so there is not a business necessity to actually go to India for a face to face meeting.

2) Tourist traffic does not generate sufficient yield to justify a route by itself. You need a mix of freight and business class to make the route worthwhile. That would be the reason for the low frequencies per week. Much better QF fill an aircraft 3 times a week and make it profitable then go daily and make a loss.

So the A333 is the "build the route" aircraft for both India and China. As much as I don't understand a technical stop in Darwin, obviously the powers that be at Qantas know something we don't that justifies it.

Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 26):
As I stated earlier, serving a south/east Indian city, and working with either 9W or S2 would make more sense.

I'd say QF will tie up with Air Sahara just as AA has. That would give Air Sahara all the Oneworld feed in India which would make sense.
 
6thfreedom
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RE: QF Changes To A333 For BOM

Tue Aug 30, 2005 2:00 pm

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 27):
As much as I don't understand a technical stop in Darwin, obviously the powers that be at Qantas know something we don't that justifies it.

I'm guessing it's a number of factors, including:

- DRW is in the direct line of SYD-BOM
- QF already operate the A333 on an ADL-DRW-SIN routing [crewing/maintenance benefits]
- Connections from PER onto BOM via DRW?
 
Trolley Dolley
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RE: QF Changes To A333 For BOM

Tue Aug 30, 2005 2:06 pm

Surely the main reason for the DRW tech stop in one direction only would indicate that the stop is only because the 333 doesn't have the legs for the SYD-BOM route non stop into the prevailing winds? The other Asian routes may lack 5th right freedoms.

At least DRW offers same terminal connections for those pax coming in from BNE, PER or MEL.

Once the 332 floors have been ungraded, there is little doubt that QF will substitute these longer legged aircraft on the route.
 
SA7700
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RE: QF Changes To A333 For BOM

Tue Aug 30, 2005 7:00 pm

Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 22):
Yes, the Qantas website.
If you put in travel dates from January onwards, you will see which aircraft operate on the sector.
Not sure if the PDF timetable has been updated, but the electronic one seems to be 'real time'.
QF 45 SYd-CHC shows B743 on servtain days of the week... as do the other sectors.

Thanks, I see the B743 will be used on the 1-stop via PER. (SYD-PER-JNB-PER-SYD).


Rgds

SA7700
When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
 
Marara
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RE: QF Changes To A333 For BOM

Tue Aug 30, 2005 8:10 pm

We arent able to sell DRWBOM - well couldnt the other day anyways. SYDDRW is for sale though.
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mrniji
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RE: QF Changes To A333 For BOM

Tue Aug 30, 2005 8:17 pm

Quoting Trolley Dolley (Reply 29):
Surely the main reason for the DRW tech stop in one direction only would indicate that the stop is only because the 333 doesn't have the legs for the SYD-BOM route non stop into the prevailing winds?

Didn't QF in the past fly BOm-[SIN?-]DRW in the 90s? I slightly remember the QF Darwin on the boards in BOM airport.. could also be a mistake from BOM though, as these flight info things never show the correct stuff there  Wink
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
6thfreedom
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RE: QF Changes To A333 For BOM

Tue Aug 30, 2005 8:54 pm

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 32):
Didn't QF in the past fly BOm-[SIN?-]DRW in the 90s? I slightly remember the QF Darwin on the boards in BOM airport.. could also be a mistake from BOM though, as these flight info things never show the correct stuff there

hhhmmmm, dont recall DRW, but i do remember late 90's QF operating SYD-SIN-BOM outbound, but BOM-SIN-MEL inbound with a B763.
 
trex8
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RE: QF Changes To A333 For BOM

Tue Aug 30, 2005 11:40 pm

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 27):
As much as I don't understand a technical stop in Darwin, obviously the powers that be at Qantas know something we don't that justifies it.

lack of range, according to NW website, their Pratt A330-300X (MTOW 233K)can fly 4600nm, CI says their GE (80A4 engines) A330-300 (MTOW 230K) can fly 4000nm with full payload, SYD-BOM is 5500nm, DRW-BOM is 4000nm. QF planes are 80A3 with more thrust but they are not 233K X variants. I'm not even sure they are 230K MTOW. I'm surprised they can even manage eastbound non stop, wouldn't surprise me if they will occasionally have to make a technical stop eastbound also.
 
Trolley Dolley
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RE: QF Changes To A333 For BOM

Wed Aug 31, 2005 5:10 am

QF has served BOM in a number of ways over the years ver the history of the Kangaroo route. Initially it was a tech stop when you needed to hop up and down a few times to get between Europe and Down Under.

In the mid 1980's it was the route that QF first introduced one-stop services between SYD and LON with 743's. LON-BOM-SYD. Then in the 1990's it served BOM with 763's via SIN.

To put the distance between BOM and SYD into perspective, it is roughly the same as Auckland and Los Angeles.
 
VHXLR8
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RE: QF Changes To A333 For BOM

Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:32 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 15):
Seems to me Qantas didn't make the right choices, they appear to have second thoughts on how to best use their A330 fleet.

Well it's no secret that QF aren't exactly overjoyed with the A330.

The A330s to BOM will also bring into question another interesting point; will short-haul now also operate to BOM? Of course the EBA would have to be changed in regard to timezone allowance, but that's not really a major hurdle. It has been talked about for a while that QF wants S/H to operate to more int'l destinations, BOM being one and HNL being another.
 
MEA
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RE: QF Changes To A333 For BOM

Wed Aug 31, 2005 5:32 pm

I know I am not a route planner, but QF holds some rights through India & I can't see why it would not be possible to route a number of flights via Mumbai with the B743 to secondary destinations in Europe such as Manchester, Gatwick, Zurich, etc.

They could even be inventive and try a Mumbai to Dubai run and build up the market instead of complaining all the time about Emirates.

It would also seem more logical to operate the A330s via Kuala Lumpur and tap into Australia Malaysia, Malaysia India markets.

How about Sydney or Melbourne to Mumbai via Colombo...

The routings using the A330s are numerous however, QF management remain stagnant, defensive and a bunch of whining whingers.
 
mrniji
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RE: QF Changes To A333 For BOM

Wed Aug 31, 2005 5:37 pm

Quoting MEA (Reply 37):
They could even be inventive and try a Mumbai to Dubai run and build up the market instead of complaining all the time about Emirates.



Quoting MEA (Reply 37):
How about Sydney or Melbourne to Mumbai via Colombo...

I doubt that they have / will get 5th freedom rights for any of the routes suggested here
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
CPDC10-30
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RE: QF Changes To A333 For BOM

Wed Aug 31, 2005 5:51 pm

Well it's no secret that QF aren't exactly overjoyed with the A330.

How can you be happy with an aircraft when you are misusing it? QF decided to go with the lightweight versions of the A330 and is now paying for it dearly. This aircraft does 2000-4000nm routes very capably and efficiently.

Dispatch reliability for AC's 333X has been very good, almost the best of their fleet.
 
6thfreedom
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RE: QF Changes To A333 For BOM

Wed Aug 31, 2005 7:36 pm

Quoting MEA (Reply 37):
They could even be inventive

I don't think the word "inventive" and "Qantas" can be used in the same sentence when discussing route planning!



Quoting Mrniji (Reply 38):
I doubt that they have / will get 5th freedom rights for any of the routes suggested here

Considering that India is one of very few countries which has beyond rights from Australia to the USA, I am quite certain that Australia has full rights over India to a number of European destinations.

All they would need to do is pick one that is relatively underserved, and off you go. Services to ATH or FCO with a 2 class B743 [450 seat high density config] seems reasonable.
 
mrniji
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RE: QF Changes To A333 For BOM

Wed Aug 31, 2005 7:42 pm

Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 40):
Considering that India is one of very few countries which has beyond rights from Australia to the USA, I am quite certain that Australia has full rights over India to a number of European destinations.

This is really interesting. Btw, let me clarify first, 6thfreedom, as I have seen that my post was not formulated clear enough - my apology: I was referring to India Gulf - not even the Indian private carriers have the rights, and internationally only BG and CX (BOM-DXB) and TG (in coop with AI - MAA-DXB) has 5th freedom India Gulf rights. Now only hope I did not forget anyone. Do you know whether QF has rights India-Gulf? I doubt that, because even the ME Countries would not be that happy - there are three players involved, not only India-Australia (will check in a sec)

India ahs rights Australia-US? Well, no one would fly India-SYD/MEL/-US.. but in fact, that could be either

- a RTW for AI (something like India-SIN-SYD-LAX-FRA/LON-India) - btw this is a complete game i am playing and has no basis in any plans
- of they could "enter into the Australia-US market while flying India-Australia US - as we know the flight has to commence in India, and Australia has to be "officially a halt inbetween". coz 5th freedom would not be valid elsewise..
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
Gemuser
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RE: QF Changes To A333 For BOM

Wed Aug 31, 2005 7:48 pm

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 38):
Quoting MEA (Reply 37):
They could even be inventive and try a Mumbai to Dubai run and build up the market instead of complaining all the time about Emirates.

Quoting MEA (Reply 37):
How about Sydney or Melbourne to Mumbai via Colombo...

I doubt that they have / will get 5th freedom rights for any of the routes suggested here

Yes they do! See:
http://www.info.dfat.gov.au/Info/Tre...s/832238AECFE11F25CA256AFD0005E128
Although the whole treaty is out of date in the extreame, being signed in 1949 and amended in 1960 (the URL above) and 1965 and not touched since!

The orginal 1949 treaty specified that Oz airlines could operate to UK/Western Europe via specified intermediate points and Indian airlines could operate to Fiji. This was changed by the 1960 amendment to allow airlines of both countries to operate services "beyond" the other country. So QF could operate to DXB AND AI could operate SYD-LAX!!!

The problem with all the above suggestions is capacity. This is specified in the treaty to be "as agreed" currently its a total of 5 services per week each,between the two countries, as I understand it.

Gemuser
DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
 
Sydscott
Posts: 3513
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2003 11:50 am

RE: QF Changes To A333 For BOM

Wed Aug 31, 2005 7:53 pm

Quoting Trolley Dolley (Reply 29):
Surely the main reason for the DRW tech stop in one direction only would indicate that the stop is only because the 333 doesn't have the legs for the SYD-BOM route non stop into the prevailing winds?

Let me clarify. I meant I couldn't understand the tech stop being in Darwin vs being in Singapore. QF used to fly through Singpare to India and I would have thought it made more sense to meet QF's other Singapore flights in terms of connecting pax from other Australian cities.

Quoting MEA (Reply 37):
know I am not a route planner, but QF holds some rights through India & I can't see why it would not be possible to route a number of flights via Mumbai with the B743 to secondary destinations in Europe such as Manchester, Gatwick, Zurich, etc.

The reason is called Heathrow. Qantas mainline also flies to Frankfurt and was interested in Paris couldn't get the frequency they would have liked under the current treaty. As far as Qantas is concerned that is it for mainline service to Europe. Everywhere else is served via codeshare with BA (CX for Rome) or from, you guessed it, Heathrow. What intentions they have for AO or other subsidiaries to fly to Europe remains unknown and subject to vast amounts of speculation but not many facts at present.

Quoting MEA (Reply 37):
They could even be inventive and try a Mumbai to Dubai run and build up the market instead of complaining all the time about Emirates.

Why?? Most of the traffic going on Emirates via Dubai is going on to Europe as connections. Sure there is some O&D and 3 night jetlag stays but that is what Qantas has Singapore, Bangkok and Hong Kong for.

Quoting MEA (Reply 37):
It would also seem more logical to operate the A330s via Kuala Lumpur and tap into Australia Malaysia, Malaysia India markets.

Then you have the small problem of Malaysia Airlines which could easily out compete Qantas on both frequency and price plus zero connections from & to other Australian cities.

Quoting MEA (Reply 37):
The routings using the A330s are numerous however, QF management remain stagnant, defensive and a bunch of whining whingers.

Stagnant - Well they sacked a couple of hundred of them so I would say shrinking would be the more appropriate word.

Defensive - New routes = HKG-LHR, PER-HKG, SYD-SFO-YVR not to mention Jetstar & Jetstar Asia. Hardly defensive.

Whingers - Name me one CEO who doesn't whinge about something effecting their company??

[Edited 2005-08-31 12:55:08]

[Edited 2005-08-31 12:56:02]
 
Gemuser
Posts: 5111
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 12:07 pm

RE: QF Changes To A333 For BOM

Wed Aug 31, 2005 7:57 pm

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 41):
Do you know whether QF has rights India-Gulf? I doubt that, because even the ME Countries would not be that happy - there are three players involved, not only India-Australia (will check in a sec)

QF have 5th freedom rights from India to anywhere you could classify as "beyond" India. QF has operated India-Barhain in the past. AI have 5th freedom rights from Oz to anywhere you could classify as beyond.

See reply42 for the link to the OZ Foregin Affairs Department's Treaty Database.

Gemuser
DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
 
cricket
Posts: 2115
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2005 8:23 pm

RE: QF Changes To A333 For BOM

Wed Aug 31, 2005 8:15 pm

Damn, those QF 747-300's were nice to see in BOM, but the A333 makes sense from a load factor POV. The range issues have obviously been thought of at QF and I'm sure the management has ensured that a A333 will not end its days floating in the Indian Ocean. While the 'Please give us South Indians a direct flight, please' argument was used again, the fact is that BOM is the commercial hub, the most prominent Oz company in India, Fosters is based out of Aurangabad. Many other Australians work in India's financial hub. And while I will be the first person to admit that the international terminal in Bombay is hell on earth, (lets leave the approach roads out of this because that is another epic tale), if QF is to work out in India they would need to fly to either DEL or BOM.
Plus, whenever the Indian team leaves for down-under now (and next time it seems we'll win the series) they can fly directly from BOM.
By the way, is the change to a A333 being done with added frequency?
been there, flown that
 
6thfreedom
Topic Author
Posts: 2641
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 11:09 am

RE: QF Changes To A333 For BOM

Wed Aug 31, 2005 8:28 pm

Quoting Cricket (Reply 45):
By the way, is the change to a A333 being done with added frequency?

Nope. Frequency remains at 3pw operating mon/fri/sun ex-SYD

Quoting Cricket (Reply 45):
if QF is to work out in India they would need to fly to either DEL or BOM.

Considering how well SQ and MH do between India and Australia, wouldn't it make sense for QF to work with either Jet or S2 over SIN. While non-stop [albeit in one direction] is good, they miss out on a hell of a lot of feed in both India and Australia.
9W should launch BOM/DEL/BLR/MAA - SIN, and feed into QF's SIN-PER/ADL/MEL/SYD/BNE services.
 
cricket
Posts: 2115
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2005 8:23 pm

RE: QF Changes To A333 For BOM

Wed Aug 31, 2005 8:42 pm

Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 46):
9W should launch BOM/DEL/BLR/MAA - SIN, and feed into QF's SIN-PER/ADL/MEL/SYD/BNE services.

Ah, but DEL, BOM services to SIN are restricted both ways because of issues between the two governments. While going via SIN will make it a one-stopper for everybody, I don't think Indian carriers are in a position to launch multi-city Singapore services just yet. So to get from DEL to MEL you'll need a two-stopper (BOM, SYD). For example, my girlfriend is going to MEL for a IBM event next week, and she is flying SQ from DEL and onward to MEL. I asked why they didn't book her on QF and she said 'inconvinient and expensive'.
That said, the QF flight thankfully doesn't operate at wild hours of the flight when no domestic operations take place. There is also significant student traffice to Oz from India, particularly the North. Yet most of those students still fly via BKK, KUL and SIN and I doubt they'll give up el cheepo fares on TG and MH for a non-stop service.
While QF along with various Australian State governments (mainly QLD) have been promoting tourism, I think a lot more needs to be done by both governments to promote cross tourism.
been there, flown that
 
6thfreedom
Topic Author
Posts: 2641
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 11:09 am

RE: QF Changes To A333 For BOM

Wed Aug 31, 2005 8:53 pm

Quoting Cricket (Reply 47):
While QF along with various Australian State governments (mainly QLD) have been promoting tourism, I think a lot more needs to be done by both governments to promote cross tourism.

LOL... I've often wondered what the attraction to Queensland would be for Indian tourists! The warm weather? As if you guys don't have enough of that back home...

Melbourne has a huge Indian student population, and of course has the MCG!
 
MEA
Posts: 585
Joined: Mon Jan 15, 2001 8:30 pm

RE: QF Changes To A333 For BOM

Wed Aug 31, 2005 8:58 pm

Sydscott,

The point of my post was to demonstrate that there are plenty of opportunities for QF to try & exploit.

Unique and tapped routes that will allow QF to leverage their traffic rights and open up new markets, increasing revenue, shareholder return, etc.

QF has a massive customer base and should be able to pump a large amount of traffic between Asia, India and beyond. Every major company here has outsourced some part of their business to India. We have numerous executives who travel to Mumbai over 5 times a year, all business class as the flight is greater then 9 hours (company policy).

Dubai can be used as a hub and with some clever codesharing (MEA, THY, Aeroflot, CSA, Malev, Royal Jordanian, Egyptair, Olympic, Cyprus Airways & many more) a substantial amount of traffic can be directed onto other carriers. This is sure to spoil some of the fun EK has been experiencing.

I large number of people want to visit Dubai and there is no reason why it can't be offered an alternative to Asia. The same scenario would apply to India.

I use the word stagnant as I don't see any innovative offerings or ideas coming out of Mascot:

- Melbourne has had a reduction in international services
- HKG to LHR only as a result of VS
- United has operated to SFO for a number of years
- YVR in competition with AC
- Reduced Frequent Flyer benefits
- Low staff morale
- JQ to compete with VB
- Skybed offered after SQ, CX & BA had already rolled out their offerings
- Air NZ & VS from all reports offer a better business class product

I am the first to support QF, never book a flight on VB or JQ and this is coming from an ex AN junkie. However, I believe there are numerous opportunities out there that QF are ignoring.

I like to think of it like the tolls in Sydney build them and slowly slowly more people tend to use them despite the initial rumblings...

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