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FlewGSW
Posts: 148
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 5:45 am

RE: U.S. Airlines To Operate MSY Refugee Flights

Sun Sep 04, 2005 4:03 am

The AA flight from MSY to BNA will not happen today.

The aircraft for the flight, a former TWA plane, is right now flying to TYS 188 minutes (111 of those minutes were just waiting to takeoff from MSY) behind they days originally schedule, and as such there will not be daylight at MSY to operate the BNA flight.
 
BostonGuy
Posts: 489
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2000 5:49 am

RE: U.S. Airlines To Operate MSY Refugee Flights

Sun Sep 04, 2005 4:35 am

Quoting UAORD2000 (Reply 49):
Either way, don't you think that Daddy Bush should have stepped in and done SOMETHING to help these US residents, since the states and even FEMA could not figure it out? Just common sense I guess.

I'm not a conservative Republican, so unlike you I don't believe a coup d'etat was necessary to make the Federal relief effort effective.

The idea that "Daddy Bush", who is retired and in his 80's, could have "stepped in and done something" is extremely naive. And that's being diplomatic.

I'll stay consistent in concluding my replies with a segue that gets back to airline refuge flights.... Could an air evacuation (commercial and/or military) requested by the Mayor of New Orleans have gotten out over 2 days the 50,000 who couldn't afford to obey the mandatory evacuation? Would an evacuation using 500 unused school buses been a more effective way to evacuate those 50,000 poor people? Or would it have required a using resources already available to the mayor of New Orleans plus a request for Federal assistance with an airlift?
 
rj777
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RE: U.S. Airlines To Operate MSY Refugee Flights

Sun Sep 04, 2005 5:23 am

Not to put any of this down or anything, but don't you think that some widebody planes should be utilized for this instead of 757s and A321s? I mean, A330s, 767s and 777s would help move the process along very quickly.
 
BostonGuy
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RE: U.S. Airlines To Operate MSY Refugee Flights

Sun Sep 04, 2005 7:08 am

Quoting RJ777 (Reply 52):
Not to put any of this down or anything, but don't you think that some widebody planes should be utilized for this instead of 757s and A321s? I mean, A330s, 767s and 777s would help move the process along very quickly.

I think it's incredibly generous of airlines to provide evacuations on narrow-body jets free of charge. Especially considering the financial straights they are experiencing. Plus, commercial air service is vital to the nation's economy and the airlines need to also maintain that level of service.
 
westindian425
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RE: U.S. Airlines To Operate MSY Refugee Flights

Sun Sep 04, 2005 7:26 am

Though widebodies can definitely hold more, the turnaround times are also higher than the narrowbodies. It's a tradeoff. After thinking about it, the narrowbodies are doing just fine.

Neil
God did not create aircraft pilots to be on the ground
 
virgin747
Posts: 290
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RE: U.S. Airlines To Operate MSY Refugee Flights

Sun Sep 04, 2005 1:10 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 41):
Isn't it sad you even have to point this out to some of your enlightened fellow countrymen?

Whats more sad is I gotta remind my fellow countryman exactly what the US is doing to Canada to start these so called relations.... Pumping polluted water into our rivers and something about lumber.....
 
GrummanS2
Posts: 9
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RE: U.S. Airlines To Operate MSY Refugee Flights

Sun Sep 04, 2005 1:43 pm

Quoting Lincoln (Reply 37):
Yes -- it's UPS (United Parcel Service)'s air operations. (I.e., from what I understand if it has "UPS" painted on it and wings it's technically UPS Airlines)

UPS dropped it pax service a few years ago. It was only operated on Boeing 727-100 with a quick change interior kit. Not so quick it took hours to change the interior. As far as I know they no longer hold a FAR 121 passenger certificate.

UPS does not have B737 type aircraft on their certificate and could not just pick one up and operate it for relief flights. Maybe they chartered it from someone?
 
COfaninBOS
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RE: U.S. Airlines To Operate MSY Refugee Flights

Sun Sep 04, 2005 3:10 pm

Bostonguy-

I suppose it's the mayor's fault and the governor's fault that under the Bush administration, the budget for SELA (the organization in charge of rebuilding the levees and working with erosion problems along the shores of Lake Pontchartrain) was lowered to $10.4 million from $36.5 million?

The New Orleans Times Picayune wrote numerous stories over the last three years WARNING everyone of what would happen if a category 4 or 5 hit New Orleans due to the state's eroding wetlands and barrier islands as well as the sinking levees that protect the city. Yet, despite 2004 being the worst Hurricane season in the Gulf, Bush again slashed the budget for SELA so drastically that the organization had to drop a program to raise the levees and institute a hiring freeze! Property taxes were raised in the city to try and bridge some of the gap, but that was obviously too late.

Additionally, most people's complaints with Bush had to do with his response AFTER the storm. He remained on his FIVE WEEK vacation during the days in which the scene in New Orleans was spiraling out of control. That is unacceptable. Also, after the flooding, it became clear that what was needed to evacuate the victims was well beyond the means of one of the poorest cities in the nation that was under water as well as a state which lacked the resources to undertake a massive evacuation effort.

AND, before anyone forgets, this storm was a category one in Miami and was a category 3 when everyone went to bed on Saturday night! It's not like the mayor had weeks to prepare for a major evacuation.

After spending my second straight day volunteering at the George R Brown Convention Center in downtown Houston, I can safely say that I do believe this administration dropped the ball and that the only thing that was proven to me is that the nation is stretched too thin right now with our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan at a time when federal tax cuts have eroded what was once a surplus just a few short years ago.
 
707lvr
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RE: U.S. Airlines To Operate MSY Refugee Flights

Sun Sep 04, 2005 4:40 pm

72 hours. Seventy-two hours. All of this is the reason we've been told over and over in PSA's: expect to be without help for 72 hours . Governments cannot do anything in less time than that, and government employees can/will not move until told to do so.

We should all expect the worst recriminations in American history after this, not to mention the acrimonious and partisan Report of the Katrina Commission. This is what we do.

One positive thing which may come out of it is that many, many people will be starting and updating their own household emergency plans. I am.
 
AirAmericaC46
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RE: U.S. Airlines To Operate MSY Refugee Flights

Sun Sep 04, 2005 7:24 pm

God bless all the airlines helping out! I am hoping for a good karma pay-out for a profitable years to come for those airlines volunteering! Any other US airlines left out not volunteering?
 
nwafflyer
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RE: U.S. Airlines To Operate MSY Refugee Flights

Sun Sep 04, 2005 8:39 pm

Does anyone have a list of what airlines are flying what flight numbers and planes?
 
squirrel83
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RE: U.S. Airlines To Operate MSY Refugee Flights

Sun Sep 04, 2005 8:57 pm

Anyone have a list of all carriers that have participated so far in the effrort? Not to mention all cargo, and charter airlines.
A346, 7E7, 747, 777, Sonic Cruiser
 
BostonGuy
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RE: U.S. Airlines To Operate MSY Refugee Flights

Sun Sep 04, 2005 9:03 pm

Quoting Cofaninbos (Reply 57):
I suppose it's the mayor's fault and the governor's fault that under the Bush administration, the budget for SELA (the organization in charge of rebuilding the levees and working with erosion problems along the shores of Lake Pontchartrain) was lowered to $10.4 million from $36.5 million?

That is absolutely a factor for which Bush and Congress must be held accountable for that role in New Orleans being vulnerable (as should Clinton who also signed cuts in levee funding). But at the last minute, with just 2 days before a catastrophic hurricane was about to make a direct hit on New Orleans, The Democratic Mayor and the Democratic Governor ordered everyone out of the city and left 50,000 predominantly black poor people to fend for themselves.

As a reporter wrote in the liberal New York Times, "The white people got out. Most of them, anyway... It was mostly black people who were left behind.

Quoting Cofaninbos (Reply 57):
It's not like the mayor had weeks to prepare for a major evacuation.

WRONG! It's well documented how the Mayor and Governor continually planned during the terms in office an evacuation for a Category 4 or 5 hurricane. As The New York Times has documented the Mayor and the Governor ignored repeated warnings that predominantly poor black residents, tens of thousands of them, would not be able to get out.

With 2 days left to get people out the Mayor and Governor didn't make use of their own resources in the city to get those people out, nor did they tap into Federal money or request Federal help in getting those people out.

They had a chance to save thousands of lives, and chose not to.

Quoting Cofaninbos (Reply 57):
The New Orleans Times Picayune wrote numerous stories over the last three years WARNING everyone of what would happen if a category 4 or 5 hit New Orleans due to the state's eroding wetlands and barrier islands as well as the sinking levees that protect the city.

The Times-Picayune's special report a few years back, "The Big One", is fascinating. It details the real threat of a Category 4 or 5 hurricane, the lapses at all governmental levels in dealing appropriately with this known threat, and also how Louisiana's Congressional delegation asked for money for levee improvements yet gave priority to funding pet projects that benefited friends and family.
 
widebodyphotog
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RE: U.S. Airlines To Operate MSY Refugee Flights

Sun Sep 04, 2005 9:19 pm

Quoting Cofaninbos (Reply 57):
I suppose it's the mayor's fault and the governor's fault that under the Bush administration, the budget for SELA (the organization in charge of rebuilding the levees and working with erosion problems along the shores of Lake Pontchartrain) was lowered to $10.4 million from $36.5 million?



Quoting Cofaninbos (Reply 57):
The New Orleans Times Picayune wrote numerous stories over the last three years WARNING everyone of what would happen if a category 4 or 5 hit New Orleans due to the state's eroding wetlands and barrier islands as well as the sinking levees that protect the city. Yet, despite 2004 being the worst Hurricane season in the Gulf, Bush again slashed the budget for SELA so drastically that the organization had to drop a program to raise the levees and institute a hiring freeze! Property taxes were raised in the city to try and bridge some of the gap, but that was obviously too late.

This has been going on for a lot more than three years. And the president does not make the law. Congress approved the bill with the complicity of the democrats in the LA congressional LA delegation and increased funding above the White House budget recommendations. The majority of SELA project was to improve rain water drainage not to protect the basin from river or lake storm surges. The problem with some of the original proposals for SELA was that there was no accounting for the additional money that they wanted to spend! The question to ask is what have the city and state done with the federal monies they have received and the answer is very nearly nothing to protect from storm surge. One of the largest funded projects was widening the Inner Harbor Shipping Canal, don't think that helps with flood control. (it was actually levees in the Inner Harbor Shipping Canal that broke and cause the majority of the flooding) There was money for continued dredging of the Gulf Shipping Canal, which actually worsens potential flooding problems for the New Orleans basin. There have been improvements to pumping stations such as installing backup diesel generators to supplement the potential loss of mainline electricity to pump motors, and canals have been deepened and widened. But other than that the huge almost unfathomable problem of storm surge flood control has been ignored by the city and state for decades. The costs of raising levees on both the lake and the river as much as 20 feet above where they are now was estimated to be in the double digit billions of dollars and take a dozen years or more. It would be a daunting task for the resources of the Army Corps of Engineers who built and rebuilt a lot of the system in the first place. What the state and city governments have done is hope and pray that the worst never happens, while offering no creative solutions, taking federal dollars without accountability, claiming political victories and doing nothing effective with the resources at hand.

In my opinion this disaster was inevitable in such a ferocious storm and by a few minor miracles it was less disastrous than it could have been. If this storm came a month or so earlier when the Mississippi river was higher and broke the river levees there would be another 20ft of water in the basin and no hope for anyone. The basin would have been filled from the spillway West of the airport to the I-10 bridge. Absolutely everything would be gone with hundreds of thousands dead, not stuck on rooftops or in the makeshift shelters, completely washed away by an impossible to stop torrent of water.

The plan to tackle the event of a category 4 or above storm was to get everyone out of the city and the city and state governments completely failed to do that...They did not even try to follow their own plan...

Louisiana disaster plan, pg 13, para 5 , dated 01/00

Quote:
The primary means of hurricane evacuation will be personal vehicles. School and municipal buses, government-owned vehicles and vehicles provided by volunteer agencies may be used to provide transportation for individuals who lack transportation and require assistance in evacuating

There is really no practical way to stop the worse from happening again. When the city was born more than 250 years ago it was actually well above sea level. Building ever higher levees, robbing the basin of elevation building sediment from periodic floods of the Mississippi river has allowed the land to sink as much as a half an inch a year, and trap the area into a vicious cycle of levee improvements in order to stave off all but the strongest of hurricanes and tropical storms.

Now just wait for the reaction when the ACE tells us that they will have to put some huge holes in some of the levees to let the water out because the trapped water inside the city is now higher than the normal level of Lake Pontchartrain...

I'm no cheerleader for the administration but the facts are what the facts are. I feel passionately about the region that I have known and loved ever since I can remember. It has always been a shame to see the neglect cause from corrupt and incompetent state and local officials. Now the chickens have come home to roost...

The airport was very fortunate to have survived this storm event without substantial damage. The Airport itself is basically at or above sea level as is much of surrounding Kenner and some of Metarie. If the airport was inoperable there would not really be an efficient way to do the heavy lifting of aide supplies and personnel to tackle the problem at hand. It's a lucky thing, but the great mass of the evacuation effort did not involve the airport at all. It's 10 miles from the city center. Rapid evacuation has to be accomplished by over the road means and there is really no way around that.

I do think that in the coming weeks and months the airport will be a vital transition point for the related efforts in rebounding from this disaster. I just hope that the airlines involved can absorb the additional strain of this operation without it tipping them over into bankruptcy.



-widebodyphotog

[Edited 2005-09-04 14:48:27]
If you know what's really going on then you'll know what to do
 
FlewGSW
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RE: U.S. Airlines To Operate MSY Refugee Flights

Sun Sep 04, 2005 10:12 pm

For Sunday, September 4

AA will fly:
MD-80 aircraft 403
9740 DFW 7:15 MSY 8:31
9440 MSY 10:30 CHA 12:50
9741 CHA 2:00 DFW 4:05

MD-80 aircraft 572
9750 DFW 8:04 MSY 9:22
9441 MSY 11:25 CRP 12:46
9751 CRP 2:45 DFW 3:55

MD-80 aircraft 4XR
9752 DFW 9:30 MSY 10:55
9442 MSY 12:55 CRP 2:15
9753 CRP 4:15 DFW 5:25

MD-80 aircraft 4XW
9754 DFW 11:00 MSY 12:25
9443 MSY 2:30 CRP 3:50
9755 CRP 5:50 DFW 7:00
 
BostonGuy
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RE: U.S. Airlines To Operate MSY Refugee Flights

Sun Sep 04, 2005 10:16 pm

And this is from the Times-Picayune report from 2002 that Cofaninbos cites, and gives an illustration of the extreme culpability in this disaster by local officials... notice that it was known by local officials 3 years ago that survivability wouldn't be determined by relief efforts after a hurricane:

"New Orleans-area emergency officials have some simple advice for how to survive a catastrophic hurricane: Get out.

'At some point you have to accept some responsibility for helping yourself,' said Deputy Fire Chief Terry Tullier, acting director of the New Orleans Office of Emergency Preparedness. 'You have to understand that this could happen, and whether it's the second or third time you've been asked to evacuate this year . . . you have to get up and go.'

'The alternative is unacceptable,' he said.

For Col. Jesse St. Amant, director of the Plaquemines Parish Office of Emergency Preparedness, that means: 'Every person who fails to leave is going to be a search-and-rescue mission, either a casualty, injury or death.'"
 
qxq400
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RE: U.S. Airlines To Operate MSY Refugee Flights

Sun Sep 04, 2005 11:07 pm

Quoting 707lvr (Reply 58):
72 hours. Seventy-two hours. All of this is the reason we've been told over and over in PSA's: expect to be without help for 72 hours . Governments cannot do anything in less time than that, and government employees can/will not move until told to do so.

Why as Americans are we so self centered? We want everyone to do our own planning and thinking for us. Why is it that the Federal government must provide for evacuations of a sovern city and state government without being requesting help?

I live in the West I know that a major earthquake/volcano eruption could and and will happen. I make my own plans to survive 3-5 days with no help from uncle sam.

Having said that I feel very sad indeed and am glad that the US Airlines are pitching in. My whole point in this rambling is let's focus our efforts on relief not blame! For those that want to keep on critizing Bush and the US government. Get off your asses and volunteer.

That is all.....
Welcome baby Madison Renee
 
lincoln
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RE: U.S. Airlines To Operate MSY Refugee Flights

Sun Sep 04, 2005 11:17 pm

Quoting GrummanS2 (Reply 56):
UPS does not have B737 type aircraft on their certificate and could not just pick one up and operate it for relief flights. Maybe they chartered it from someone?

I don't think UPS Airlines involvement in this is pax service... I would imagine that they and FedEx are only moving cargo in and out with their normal fleets.

Lincoln
CO Is My Airline of Choice || Baggage Claim is an airline's last chance to disappoint a customer || Next flts in profile
 
B757capt
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RE: U.S. Airlines To Operate MSY Refugee Flights

Sun Sep 04, 2005 11:21 pm

Pace has donated a 737-300 flypace.com and we will probably be sending our 757 (hooters Air) to MSY on Monday night.
The views written by this user are in no manner the views of my employer and should not be thought as such.
 
Type-Rated
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RE: U.S. Airlines To Operate MSY Refugee Flights

Mon Sep 05, 2005 12:36 am

I imagine a lot of these people haven't flown before. I wonder if they have any people that are scared to fly? I would also think that the airlines operating these flights are not providing the standard service as they normally would on a scheduled flight, alcoholic drinks, etc. Just water, maybe?
I wonder if the crews aree wearing their uniforms, maybe just jumpsuits which would actually be preferable due to the heat and other conditions at MSY?
I'll tell you, if I had just come out of that mess over there, I would ask the F/A to make it a TRIPPLE!
Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
 
exFATboy
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RE: U.S. Airlines To Operate MSY Refugee Flights

Mon Sep 05, 2005 2:00 am

Quoting BostonGuy (Reply 48):
Rather interesting that those who dislike Bush the most also show a complete ignorance about the U.S. Constitution and lack of knowledge regarding which powers are given to the Federal Government and which powers are reserved exclusively for the states.

Not really - most of the people who dislike Bush so intensely tend to be left of centre, and most liberals in this country tend to think the Federal government is always the answer to any problem. (One of the more interesting side effects of the 2004 election was liberals suddenly rediscovering the concept of federalism.)

It's not a lack of knowledge, it's that they just don't care about those certain parts of the Constitution, like the Ninth and Tenth Amendments, that limit the power of the Federal government.
 
Cactus739
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RE: U.S. Airlines To Operate MSY Refugee Flights

Mon Sep 05, 2005 3:50 am

Quoting Type-Rated (Reply 69):
I would also think that the airlines operating these flights are not providing the standard service as they normally would on a scheduled flight, alcoholic drinks, etc. Just water, maybe?

I read a United press release about one of their rescue refugee flights stating that everyone on board was given a hot meal....
You can't fix stupid.... - Ron White
 
COfaninBOS
Posts: 284
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RE: U.S. Airlines To Operate MSY Refugee Flights

Mon Sep 05, 2005 3:38 pm

AGAIN, Katrina was a category 3 when most went to bed on Saturday night. When the sun came up on Sunday, it was a category 5. That gave the mayor or New Orleans roughly 24 hours to evacuate the city.

How do you evacuate a city in which over 50% of the children live in poverty and over 100,000 adult residents lack private transportation? How do you evacuate people who refuse to leave their house? How do you evacuate tourists stranded by airlines like Delta? How do you evacuate all the hospitals in 24 hours?

The simple fact is you can't, especially in a city like New Orleans that faces geographical (few escape routes) and socio-economic barriers (a HUGE underclass).

That said, the mayor did order everyone out and then offered transportation on city buses to the shelters of last resort (Superdome and Convention Center). Those structures, while damaged, stood up to the storm but couldn't stand up to FIVE DAYS of being largely ignored by the only level of government that had the power, money, and infrastructure to make a difference (federal).

The problem with this storm is what happened AFTER it hit. Once New Orleans was under water, asking the city to do something to save people is futile. The city was RUINED.

Why did the president fly to the West Coast to talk about his medicare plan (more cuts)? Why did he return first to Crawford to continue his vacation? Why did he first say that nobody could have predicted this type of damage?Where in the hell is Dick Cheney? Has anyone heard from him this week? Why was the secretary of state shopping for shoes in Manhattan midweek in the middle of a crisis?

Imagine this scenario, what if terrorists had destroyed the levees? Would the federal response have been any different?

Living in Houston, it seems to me that Mayor Bill White and Governor Rick Perry have done more in a short period of time to help with the crisis than anyone in D.C. That is unnacceptable.

Additionally, I would just like to point out since some of you right wingers have hinted that we liberals need to stop complaining and actually do something to help, that I have donated $ to the Red Cross, donated goods to three local shelters, just welcomed friends from New Orleans into my home, helped enroll their daughter in the local school, volunteered my time working the GRB Convention Center shelter today, am volunteering again tmrw, started a collection at my local gym, and am adding a shower to my sister's garage apartment so that she can participate in the Urban League's "make a home" family matching program in which local homes will open themselves up to poor people stranded in Houston so that they can get out of the larger shelters.

God help us all if we can't learn from our mistakes and there is simply no way that anyone can look at what unfolded this week and not see it as one big series of mistakes!
 
flyibaby
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RE: U.S. Airlines To Operate MSY Refugee Flights

Mon Sep 05, 2005 4:05 pm

Independence took an aircraft off scheduled service on Thursday to fly FEMA from IAD to the region.
 
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chrisnh
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RE: U.S. Airlines To Operate MSY Refugee Flights

Mon Sep 05, 2005 8:10 pm

Quoting ExFATboy (Reply 70):
Not really - most of the people who dislike Bush so intensely tend to be left of centre, and most liberals in this country tend to think the Federal government is always the answer to any problem. (One of the more interesting side effects of the 2004 election was liberals suddenly rediscovering the concept of federalism.)

Interesting. All these 'liberal' victims down there...their #1 request: MONEY!!! Not certain government actions and activities, but MONEY! Why? So THE PEOPLE CAN DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES WHAT IS BEST TO DO! So much for the 'government knows best' theory. Indeed, if 'government knew best,' this whole thing wouldn't have happened because enough money would have been originally spent on the fortifying of the levees. But NO! MORE money was spent on 'bridges to nowhere in Alaska' than on the New Orleans levees. Remember THIS when some liberal (Mrs. Clinton) tries to trot out her vision for big government health care. THEN you'll see a levee break...BIG TIME. This whole thing is PROOF that government DOESN'T know best...whether it's city, State, or Federal. It does not matter. Mr. Mayor has HUNDREDS of school buses under water that he failed to deploy. So much for LOCAL government knowing what the hell it's doing.
 
BostonGuy
Posts: 489
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RE: U.S. Airlines To Operate MSY Refugee Flights

Mon Sep 05, 2005 9:59 pm

Quoting COfaninBOS (Reply 72):
AGAIN, Katrina was a category 3 when most went to bed on Saturday night. When the sun came up on Sunday, it was a category 5. That gave the mayor or New Orleans roughly 24 hours to evacuate the city.

That is a lie and you know it.

At 7am Saturday the 27th The National Hurricane Center rated Katrina a Category 3 hurricane and forecast that it would strengthen to Category 4. That is still posted on the National Hurricane Center web site.

Stop spreading lies as a means of justifying your political agenda.

Quoting COfaninBOS (Reply 72):
How do you evacuate a city in which over 50% of the children live in poverty and over 100,000 adult residents lack private transportation?

This has been posted already, but bears repeating. The State of Louisiana, in conjunction with the city of New Orleans, came up with the following method of evacuating New Orleans:

Quoting Widebodyphotog (Reply 63):
Louisiana disaster plan, pg 13, para 5 , dated 01/00

Quote:The primary means of hurricane evacuation will be personal vehicles. School and municipal buses, government-owned vehicles and vehicles provided by volunteer agencies may be used to provide transportation for individuals who lack transportation and require assistance in evacuating

The mayor of New Orleans chose to take all of the school buses out of service on Friday, filled them all with gas, and then parked in a places that were at highest risk of flooding. The Mayor and the Governor didn't even follow their own plan... a plan that didn't even require Federal assistance because it relied on local and state resources already in place.

Quoting COfaninBOS (Reply 72):
Why did the president fly to the West Coast to talk about his medicare plan (more cuts)? Why did he return first to Crawford to continue his vacation? Why did he first say that nobody could have predicted this type of damage?Where in the hell is Dick Cheney? Has anyone heard from him this week? Why was the secretary of state shopping for shoes in Manhattan midweek in the middle of a crisis?

That's bad. Really bad. And it's bad because it doesn't communicate to all the different Federal agencies involved in the search and rescue mission the extreme urgency of the situation and the immediate action needed. For that they (Bush, Rice, etc) will be held accountable.

But re-read my reply #65, where New Orleans officials themselves point out that the only way to prevent loss of life was to "get out of the way". They had a plan in place to get everyone (including the sick, the poor, the disabled) out of the way and didn't follow it.

I'm surprised you aren't riled about the fact that the Mayor of New Orleans had more concern for a fleet of 500 school buses, which he tanked-up with gas and then left parked unused "for protection", than he did for human beings who's only hope of surviving the hurricane was to have those buses made available to get them out of town.

And it's been pointed out over the years, and the Mayor even said this on Saturday, that the Super Dome was not a good place to put people during a Category 4 or 5 hurricane because relief efforts after a hurricane would find it difficult in a flood scenario to reach those who were inside.

Quoting COfaninBOS (Reply 72):
Additionally, I would just like to point out since some of you right wingers have hinted that we liberals need to stop complaining and actually do something to help...

I'm a Democrat, I'm liberal, I'm involved in volunteer relief efforts, too... and I think you probably would come across better if you spent less time repeatedly detailing your volunteer efforts. You're doing an admirable job in pitching in and doing what is desperately needed right now. Just don't lose sight of the fact that treating wounds doesn't prevent injuries from happening in the future.

Quoting COfaninBOS (Reply 72):
God help us all if we can't learn from our mistakes and there is simply no way that anyone can look at what unfolded this week and not see it as one big series of mistakes!

Indeed. And there's only one proven way to not have loss of lives from hurricanes, and it also happens to be the least expensive option... evacuate everyone from the path of the hurricane.
 
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NWOrientDC10
Posts: 1284
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RE: U.S. Airlines To Operate MSY Refugee Flights

Tue Sep 06, 2005 6:56 am

Quoting Sebring (Reply 18):
Some details on the AC flight

http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/a....html



Quoting Virgin747 (Reply 26):
Its amazing even to see Canada contributing to the effort despite recent Canada/US relations.



Quoting LongHauler (Reply 34):
Yes, but the employee sentiment within Air Canada, was that the United States is always first to help a country in need .... it's payback time now. That is why Air Canada's employees were lining up (myself included) to assist with this airlift.

A big Thank You to our friends and allies up North  smile  bigthumbsup 

Quoting FlewGSW (Reply 42):
Former V.P. Al Gore arrived into MSY today on an AA flight.

Just out of curiosity, what's he going to do? (I'm not trying to be negative, I'm just curious)

A big thumbs up to the rescue ops flight crews who are working long hours and are described as "red-eyed and tired" but who are refusing to quit working.

Russell
Things aren't always as they seem
 
BostonGuy
Posts: 489
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2000 5:49 am

RE: U.S. Airlines To Operate MSY Refugee Flights

Tue Sep 06, 2005 11:25 am

Quoting NWOrientDC10 (Reply 76):
Just out of curiosity, what's he going to do? (I'm not trying to be negative, I'm just curious)

I haven't heard. He's the founder of a new Cable TV channel... perhaps he's there as "media".

Quoting NWOrientDC10 (Reply 76):
A big thumbs up to the rescue ops flight crews who are working long hours and are described as "red-eyed and tired" but who are refusing to quit working.

And I just heard on the news that a unit of 8 Black Hawk Helicopters has rescued, as of this evening, a total of 7,000 people from rooftops. Quite amazing!
 
CO757bos2iah
Posts: 78
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2005 1:37 am

RE: U.S. Airlines To Operate MSY Refugee Flights

Wed Sep 07, 2005 2:04 am

I know we've operated flights to AUS and Lackland AFB in San Antonio. I think given the uneasiness of the industry is good to see many Airlines pull some aircraft and use them for a truly good purpose.

Also....can we PLEASE stop refering to these people as REFUGEES ? According to the American Heritage Dictionary the definition of the Word Refugee

Ref-u-gee :One who flees in search of refuge, as in times of WAR, POLITICAL OPPRESSION, or RELIGIOUS PERSECUTION.

They're american citizens, DISPLACED by an natural disaster. In effect they are STORM VICTIMS . ( At least in Florida it's what they're called. ) The airlines, gov't or whomever aren't doing them any favors. They pay taxes like everyone else and so the flights out of the city and other assistance is what they or any other American should expect their country to do when needed.

Ok...I've got that off my Chest. Flame me if you must,but I had to get that out.
Continental Airlines. We span the globe,because the world is your workplace.
 
BostonGuy
Posts: 489
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2000 5:49 am

RE: U.S. Airlines To Operate MSY Refugee Flights

Wed Sep 07, 2005 2:41 am

Quoting CO757bos2iah (Reply 78):
t least in Florida it's what they're called.

I was in Florida for 3 hurricanes last year. They're called "Evacuees".

Also, the definition of "refugee" that you gave is indeed correct. Unfortunately you are interpreting the selection of examples as being the limitations of the usage of the word.

The definition is: "One who flees in search of refuge".

I hope learning how to read a dictionary will help you get off of your horse.
 
positiverate
Posts: 1543
Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 10:35 pm

RE: U.S. Airlines To Operate MSY Refugee Flights

Wed Sep 07, 2005 5:59 am

Quoting Widebodyphotog (Reply 47):
Last time I checked, the president does not run the State of Louisiana or the city of New Orleans. The fed can not come in and take over a city or state unless the locality formally requests them to do so. The Governor and the Mayor did not have a plan period. They did not avail themselves of the full resources of the federal government which were made availible to them two days before the storm! They had plenty of time before the storm hit to come up with solutions for a problem that everybody could forsee and did nothing. Now they want to complain that FEMA and the president did not do enough to help them? This is just foolishness. There will be a high political cost to pay for this and it won't be on the fed side. The localities did not do what they were obligated to do before the catastrophe ensued and they are squarely to blame for the aftermath.

Let me make this clear: Everything which has happened as the result of Hurricane Katrina is my fault. Mine. Alone. No one else's. Stop wasting energy pointing fingers and put your hands to work helping out. It was me. Got it?

I was a United States Senator from Louisiana in 2001 when the levee at Lake Pontchartrain was declared unsafe and I didn't have enough clout with my Senatorial brethren to get sufficient money appropriated to fix it. It was my fault.

Notwithstanding my failure on that front, according to wire services:

"In a telephone interview with reporters, corps officials said that … the levees near Lake Pontchartrain that gave way … were completed and in good condition before the hurricane.

"However, they noted that the levees were designed for a Category 3 hurricane and couldn't handle the ferocious winds and raging waters from Hurricane Katrina, a Category 4 storm when it hit the coastline. The decision to build levees for a Category 3 hurricane was made based on a cost-benefit analysis in the 1960s. "

Oh. I almost forgot. I was the Commander-in-Chief of all United States Armed Forces in the 1960s which includes the Corps of Engineers. The cost-benefit analysis? My fault.

It is my fault that, as the Governor of Louisiana, I didn't foresee the need to have enough Louisiana National Guard troops - the vast majority of whom are NOT currently in Iraq, or Afghanistan or, for that matter, Indiana - pre-positioned and ready to preserve order.

I, frankly, forgot that there is a portion of the population which will steal anything from anyone given any opportunity and then will blame it on me because I didn't - in spite of ample warnings by sociologists from large Eastern Universities - foresee the need to have 27" flat-screen television sets available to every family in the New Orleans city limits as soon as the electricity went out. That one WAS my bad.

It is my fault that, as Mayor of New Orleans, I was boogying down Bourbon Street the night before the hurricane hit rather than being where I should have been - on the roof of the Superdome pounding in extra nails to hold the roof on.

As the architect of the Superdome, it was my fault for claiming that the Dome could survive 200 mile-per-hour winds. It couldn't even handle a relatively gentle160 mile-per-hour zephyr. Strap me to my drafting table and set me adrift.

Global warming? My fault. Despite the fact that nearly every serious climatologist in America has stated over and over again that there is no clear evidence tying human-generated greenhouse gasses to global warming, and even if there were, there is no evidence tying global warming to hurricanes in the Atlantic basin, I was opposed to the Kyoto treaty and so it is my fault.

It is also my fault that during the administration of Bill Clinton the US Senate rejected the terms of the Kyoto protocols by a vote of 95-0. That would be zero, zilch, nada, nil, bupkis.

As the Grand Poohbah in Charge of all TV Coverage, it is my fault that there is constant video of looters and almost none of humanitarian activities. I am the person who issued the statement: "No more rescue footage UNLESS the person rescued complains about how long they had to wait or, if he shoots at the rescuers."

And, finally, as Chairman of the National Association of Gasoline Producers it is my fault that I had the bad judgment to put so much of my drilling, refining and transportation assets in a hurricane-prone area like the Caribbean basin. What…was…I…thinking?

If I could re-do that whole thing, I would have put all that equipment in Lake Erie and Lake Michigan. There may not be any oil there, but hurricanes are very rare.

So. There you have it. Everything that has happened is my fault.

Now. Shut up and help.
 
westindian425
Posts: 729
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 7:46 am

RE: U.S. Airlines To Operate MSY Refugee Flights

Wed Sep 07, 2005 6:21 am

It is unfortunate that this topic has diverged away from the airline aspect to politics. But what else is new?

Neil
God did not create aircraft pilots to be on the ground
 
CO757bos2iah
Posts: 78
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2005 1:37 am

RE: U.S. Airlines To Operate MSY Refugee Flights

Fri Sep 09, 2005 1:59 am

Quoting BostonGuy (Reply 79):
I hope learning how to read a dictionary will help you get off of your horse.

Spoken by a person I'm sure has never ventured outside of comforts of Brookline,Waltham or the like, and never into Dorchester,Roxbury or Mattapan. But again, I know nothing of you so I can be completely wrong.

Apparently you know MUCH about myself to say I'm Arrogant ????? On a High Horse ?

Where I'm from to where I've managed to get to now,Trust me, I can't afford to be on a high-horse of anytype.

I stated my opinion on the the flights and what the media and some were calling the evacuess. Apparently my thoughts have a bit of truth to them or you wouldn't have taken such offense.

Never look down on anyone unless you're helping them up.
Continental Airlines. We span the globe,because the world is your workplace.
 
BostonGuy
Posts: 489
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2000 5:49 am

RE: U.S. Airlines To Operate MSY Refugee Flights

Fri Sep 09, 2005 5:40 am

Quoting CO757bos2iah (Reply 82):
Spoken by a person I'm sure has never ventured outside of comforts of Brookline,Waltham or the like, and never into Dorchester,Roxbury or Mattapan. But again, I know nothing of you so I can be completely wrong.

Yes, you are completely wrong. I live in Jamaica Plain. Have plenty of friends I visit every week in Mission Hill and Roxbury. I'm in Mattapan a lot, too (Simcoe's has great hot dogs). Most of my life has been spent in Florida, where I have been in numerous hurricanes, including 3 direct hits (eye passed directly overhead) last year.

Quoting CO757bos2iah (Reply 82):
Apparently you know MUCH about myself to say I'm Arrogant ????? On a High Horse ?

I never said you were arrogant. I thought you had written previously that you would "get off my horse now". That was someone from another thread, I guess. I was mistaken. My apologies.

Quoting CO757bos2iah (Reply 82):
I stated my opinion on the the flights and what the media and some were calling the evacuess.

Well, no. You never mentioned the media when talking about refugees. You simply "commanded" us to stop using the term, and then justified that by showing us you don't even understand how to use a dictionary. Too bad you didn't use that same dictionary to look up "as in". All caps, by the way, expresses urgency or anger.

Quoting CO757bos2iah (Reply 78):
Also....can we PLEASE stop refering to these people as REFUGEES ?



Quoting CO757bos2iah (Reply 78):
They're american citizens, DISPLACED by an natural disaster. In effect they are STORM VICTIMS . ( At least in Florida it's what they're called. ) The airlines, gov't or whomever aren't doing them any favors. They pay taxes like everyone else and so the flights out of the city and other assistance is what they or any other American should expect their country to do when needed.

Ok...I've got that off my Chest. Flame me if you must,but I had to get that out.



Quoting CO757bos2iah (Reply 82):
Never look down on anyone unless you're helping them up.

Yes, I think it would be helpful if you started doing that.

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