Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
eg777er
Topic Author
Posts: 1782
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2000 11:11 pm

Heathrow Welcomes A380! (or Not...)

Sat Sep 03, 2005 11:58 am

I found this on the BBC archive.....interesting to note some of the concerns!


BBC: Heathrow welcomes first 'jumbo jet'

The first jumbo jet carrying fare-paying passengers has arrived at Heathrow airport.

The newly-constructed Boeing 747, Pan Am Flight Two, touched down at Heathrow at 1414GMT today - seven hours late due to technical problems.

The jumbo had brought 324 passengers across the Atlantic from New York to London.

But the return journey to New York did not run so smoothly. Thirty-six of the 153 passengers transferred to other flights after a faulty compressed air bottle, used to blow open the plane's door in an emergency, meant take-off was delayed for four-and-a-half hours at Heathrow.

Safety concerns

This was not the first problem experienced by the 350-ton aircraft during the run-up to its launch into commercial service.

In October 1969 it was revealed there were developmental problems with the Pratt and Whitney JT 9D engines used to power the aircraft, and there were fears the project would be scrapped.

However, Pan Am was confident the problem could be overcome and the jumbo was safe, so production continued.

The previous year there had been concerns about the safety of passengers in an emergency and the logistics of evacuating large numbers of people from the aircraft in a short space of time.

As a result every jumbo jet was fitted with four inflatable chutes down which 80 passengers a minute could slide in an emergency.

But in spite of these problems it is thought the 360-seat 747, now the largest aeroplane on the market, will herald the dawn of a new era in long-distance air travel for a huge number of travellers.

With operating costs dramatically reduced and larger passenger capacity, more people will be able to afford to travel further afield. Travel experts predict that long-distance package holidays will now become more popular.

Pan Am is the first airline to fly the newly-constructed jumbo jet on a commercial basis, having purchased 25 aircraft at a cost of £187m last year.

The British Overseas Airways Corporation (Boac) have placed an order for 11 jumbos but a current pay dispute by the British Air Line Pilots Association (Balpa) is delaying its introduction into service in the UK.

Heathrow has undergone an £11m refurbishment to accommodate the new aeroplanes and the huge influx of passengers that is expected.


-------------

What goes around, comes around, eh?  Wink
 
Glareskin
Posts: 1014
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 9:35 pm

RE: Heathrow Welcomes A380! (or Not...)

Sat Sep 03, 2005 2:28 pm

Quoting Eg777er (Thread starter):


Your ad here!

What an interesting article! How true the prediction of long-distance holidays has become.

So for the obvious reluctance towards the 747 it is interesting to keep this article in mind for the moment the A380 will start doing service and surely will encounter some difficulties sooner or later....

Quoting Eg777er (Thread starter):
What goes around, comes around, eh?

That is so true..
There's still a long way to go before all the alliances deserve a star...
 
optionscle
Posts: 428
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2004 10:08 am

RE: Heathrow Welcomes A380! (or Not...)

Sat Sep 03, 2005 4:46 pm

Quoting Eg777er (Thread starter):
What goes around, comes around, eh?

What is that even supposed to mean? You talk as though Boeing is responsible for making some sort of threat.
 
Toulouse
Posts: 2200
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 4:30 pm

RE: Heathrow Welcomes A380! (or Not...)

Sat Sep 03, 2005 4:52 pm

Quoting OptionsCLE (Reply 2):
What is that even supposed to mean? You talk as though Boeing is responsible for making some sort of threat.

Think you picked it up wrong. Basically, from what I understand, today the famous Airbus bashers on a.net and many sources in the media are worried about the size of the 380, concerned about emergency evacuations, teething problems and the money airports are going to have and are already spending to accommodate the 380... basically the exact same situation as with the 747.
Long live Aer Lingus!
 
trident2e
Posts: 1286
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 3:38 am

RE: Heathrow Welcomes A380! (or Not...)

Sat Sep 03, 2005 7:11 pm

Quoting OptionsCLE (Reply 2):
What is that even supposed to mean? You talk as though Boeing is responsible for making some sort of threat.

Try reading the initial post again - then perhaps you might even understand it. But if you don't you can always ask someone to spell it out for you!
 
philb
Posts: 2645
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 5:53 am

RE: Heathrow Welcomes A380! (or Not...)

Sat Sep 03, 2005 7:18 pm

Eg777ER,

Thanks for posting that. I don't normally join in A v B threads but have, from time to time, tried to point out to the younger people here exactly the points that were being made 35 years ago (and come to that 47 years ago with the introduction of the 707) and their similarity to those being expressed by the A380 doubters.
 
AirNZ
Posts: 544
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2005 6:03 pm

RE: Heathrow Welcomes A380! (or Not...)

Sun Sep 04, 2005 3:50 am

Quoting OptionsCLE (Reply 2):
What is that even supposed to mean? You talk as though Boeing is responsible for making some sort of threat.

Sorry, but where do you possibly arrive at that ridiculous conclusion from a simple self-explanatory, and indeed excellent, post????
Flown:F27/TU134/Viscount/Trident/BAC111/727/737/747/757/767/777/300/310/320/321/330/340/DC9/DC10/Dash8/Shorts330/BAe146
 
MarshalN
Posts: 1474
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2005 9:39 am

RE: Heathrow Welcomes A380! (or Not...)

Sun Sep 04, 2005 4:07 am

Well made post. If you replace "747" with A380" and "Pam Am" with "Singapore Airlines" and fix some minor details (including the bit about BOAC) then I can actually see this being a real article in a few years!
 
PlaneDane
Posts: 346
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 3:08 am

RE: Heathrow Welcomes A380! (or Not...)

Sun Sep 04, 2005 6:17 am

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 3):
Quoting OptionsCLE (Reply 2):
What is that even supposed to mean? You talk as though Boeing is responsible for making some sort of threat.

Think you picked it up wrong. Basically, from what I understand, today the famous Airbus bashers on a.net and many sources in the media are worried about the size of the 380, concerned about emergency evacuations, teething problems and the money airports are going to have and are already spending to accommodate the 380... basically the exact same situation as with the 747.

No, Toulouse, you got it wrong. What you fail to acknowledge is that skeptics of the A380 program focus primarily on other problem areas which are self-evident and not particularly scarce.

First, you cannot deny there are significant delays to the testing and delivery phases in a program that has been going on for a number of years already.

Second, you cannot deny that there have been ongoing concerns about weight, which in turn, raises issues about payload and range.

Third, you cannot deny that problems with interior configurations and fittings do exist. It is especially curious and disappointing that such problems such be cropping up this late in the development of the aircraft and with extensive usage of CAD.

You cannot rightly criticize people for wondering what is going on with a program that was so widely ballyhooed earlier this year and has since become mysteriously low key. Remember, Airbus invited the world to join in the celebration of this aircraft. Airbus made the rollout of this aircraft one of the splashiest events ever for all of Europe. Now, it's... well... who knows?

So, if you were to actually be honest with us and yourself, you'd have to admit that the situation with the A380 does not resemble the early days of the B747. Let me add that people can also question these things without being labeled as an Airbus critic...

[Edited 2005-09-03 23:19:45]
 
User avatar
Francoflier
Posts: 5795
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2001 12:27 pm

RE: Heathrow Welcomes A380! (or Not...)

Sun Sep 04, 2005 6:21 am

Too bad A.net and Airbus didn't exist at that time!
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
Ruscoe
Posts: 1749
Joined: Sun Aug 22, 1999 5:41 pm

RE: Heathrow Welcomes A380! (or Not...)

Sun Sep 04, 2005 6:40 am

Thanyou Eg777er,
A very interesting post, which reaffirms to those who weren't around at the time that the 747 had it's fair share of problems.
I would like to mention however 2 things which immediately spring to my mind after reading these posts.

Firstly, whem the 747 was introduced it was a roughly a 100% increase in passenger numbers,(180 to 360) compared to a roughly 25% increase in passenger numbers of the 380 over the 747. (360 to 450) So airport authorities had a lot more scope for recovering their costs to accommodate the 747. Further there was a base of several 180 seat aircraft (eg.707, DC8,VC10), that the 747 could replace.
To-day effectively the only craft the 380 will replace is the 747.

Secondly, the problems of the 747 were well known at the time. It does seem to me that Airbus have decided for whatever reason to keep their problems in house.

However once again well done for an informative reminder.

Ruscoe
 
eg777er
Topic Author
Posts: 1782
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2000 11:11 pm

RE: Heathrow Welcomes A380! (or Not...)

Sun Sep 04, 2005 6:49 am

So, if you were to actually be honest with us and yourself, you'd have to admit that the situation with the A380 does not resemble the early days of the B747. Let me add that people can also question these things without being labeled as an Airbus critic...

What!? Do you even know any history of the 747 program. In case you need educating:

During test flights it became apparent that there were grave problems with the original version of the Pratt 7 Whitney JT-9D. During the 1,400 hours flight and 1,013 flights of the test program, the engines were exchanged 55 times. However, the Jumbo finally received its certification through the FAA on 30 December 1969. When the "Baby Boeing" 737 was being tested, there was only engine change. Four of the five test aircraft were later fitted with airline interior and supplied to customers. The first 747 stayed with Boeing for further test purposes.

Pan Am took her first 747 into service on 21 February as scheduled. "Clipper Young America" was supposed to fly 336 passengers from New York to London. However, an "obstinate" door and problems during loading the cargo made the flight late. When the Jumbo finally rolled out to take off, one of the engines overheated. The aircraft finally had to be replaced. The substitute 747 took off after a delay of seven hours. This would not be one off occurrence. Delays and cancelled flights soon gave the 747 the nickname "Dumbo Jet", the flying white elephant. At the beginning of the 70s problems with the engines went so far that up to 30 completed Jumbos had to be stored in Everett with concrete blocks instead of engines under their wings.


http://www.flug-revue.rotor.com/FRheft/FRH9904/FR9904e.htm

So, all new aircraft programs have problems, from 747 to 777 to A320 to A380, and it is naive and/or stupid to think otherwise.
 
Glom
Posts: 2056
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2005 2:38 am

RE: Heathrow Welcomes A380! (or Not...)

Sun Sep 04, 2005 6:50 am

Quoting Eg777er (Thread starter):
The British Overseas Airways Corporation (Boac) have placed an order for 11 jumbos but a current pay dispute by the British Air Line Pilots Association (Balpa) is delaying its introduction into service in the UK.

Sounds like AC.
 
ZRH
Posts: 4371
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 1999 11:32 pm

RE: Heathrow Welcomes A380! (or Not...)

Sun Sep 04, 2005 7:00 am

Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 8):
First, you cannot deny there are significant delays to the testing and delivery phases in a program that has been going on for a number of years already.

Do you know that almost all new airliners in the last 40 years had significant delays to testing and delivery? I think the only exception was the 777. I read for example an interesting article about LH introducing the 747-400 (unfortunately I don't know anymore where it was). LH could only start with commercial flights with 744 a year later than expected due technical problems although it was not even a total new aircraft. So these delays of the 380 are simply normal for a brand new airliner.
 
OldAeroGuy
Posts: 3928
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 6:50 am

RE: Heathrow Welcomes A380! (or Not...)

Sun Sep 04, 2005 7:43 am

The 747-100 first flew in Feb. 1969 and, as was noted above, received FAA certification in Dec. 1969. First commercial service, also noted above was in Feb. 1970.

So the time between first flight and airline service was one year. This is not to say that airline operation went smoothly. The unreliability would not be tolerated today, but airplane program management has advanced substantially over the past 35 years, preventing many of these early teething problems. In addition, the 747 high bypass engines were very new technology at the time so those problems are unlikely to be repeated.

These are some of the reasons the A380 delays seem very long. First flight to initial delivery now appears to be over 1.5 years. (4/05 to 11/06) The cost to Airbus must be enormous in inventory charges alone, since several airframes have been completed. If five airframes (costing 170M USD each?) sit undelivered for six months longer than planned, the interest charges alone would be 40M to 50M USD.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
LeonB1985
Posts: 690
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2005 9:21 pm

RE: Heathrow Welcomes A380! (or Not...)

Sun Sep 04, 2005 7:45 am

I was recently told we're due to see the A380 at LHR before the year is out, for ground handling trials. Apparently the new Pier 6 at Terminal 3 will have its new airbridges, ready for the A380, installed in October or so. Sounds good! Big grin
From the construction site that is better-known as London Heathrow Airport
 
ikramerica
Posts: 15135
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: Heathrow Welcomes A380! (or Not...)

Sun Sep 04, 2005 8:42 am

"What goes around comes around" isn't the proper cliche in this situation. That's probably the reason for the confusion.

What goes around comes around means that if you dish it out, you will eventually have to take it.

So, in this instance, to use that phrase would mean that at EOS of the 747, Airbus was mocking the 747 and reveling in it's delays, and now the reverse is true. Of course, this makes no sense, since Airbus didn't exist.

A more appropo cliche would be "history repeating itself" or "some things never change" or something like that.

Though i don't believe that to be true, because the 747 changed air travel far more than the A380 will, so it isn't introducing a revolutionary new way of travel, just the final evolution in size.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
cloudyapple
Posts: 1261
Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2005 7:01 am

RE: Heathrow Welcomes A380! (or Not...)

Sun Sep 04, 2005 9:22 am

Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 8):

We should only treat official airbus press releases as facts. Everything in this forum or even in the press about the flight test progress of the A380 is PURE speculation.

As such the underlying reasons for the delay, the weight issues and the interior fitting "problems" are only rumours. Before we have an authoritative source to your friend's friend's friend, these cannot be considered as factual. Not denying anything but there is simply no reliable source and no proof.

There hasn't been much news from airbus but this does not mean there being significant problems. There is no need to provide continuous updates. It's not big brother.
A310/A319/20/21/A332/3/A343/6/A388/B732/5/7/8/B742/S/4/B752/B763/B772/3/W/E145/J41/MD11/83/90
 
kaneporta1
Posts: 742
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2005 12:22 am

RE: Heathrow Welcomes A380! (or Not...)

Sun Sep 04, 2005 9:45 am

Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 8):
You cannot rightly criticize people for wondering what is going on with a program that was so widely ballyhooed earlier this year and has since become mysteriously low key. Remember, Airbus invited the world to join in the celebration of this aircraft. Airbus made the rollout of this aircraft one of the splashiest events ever for all of Europe. Now, it's... well... who knows?

Because I'm sure everyone would love to hear every day on the news about APU run ups, undercarriage gravity extentions and stall tests. Maybe we should gather thousands of people in Toulouse every time an A380 takes off.
I'd rather die peacefully in my sleep, like my grandfather, not terrified and screaming, like his passengers
 
AvFan4ever
Posts: 80
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 7:07 pm

RE: Heathrow Welcomes A380! (or Not...)

Sun Sep 04, 2005 12:11 pm

Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 17):
We should only treat official airbus press releases as facts. Everything in this forum or even in the press about the flight test progress of the A380 is PURE speculation.

You think that press releases from large corporations are factual? This is your factuality test? Other people not affiliated with public relations departments cannot know the facts? Airbus doesn't occasionally tell the truth to their customers and suppliers and some of the truth leaks out? Wow. I trust that you realize that what you said is extremely naive.

Regarding A380 delays: was Airbus management really caught offgaurd by the magnitude of the technical challenges posed by the A380 program (which indicates management incompetency) or have they simply been too optimistic with customers and shareholders (which indicates lying)??
 
PlaneDane
Posts: 346
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 3:08 am

RE: Heathrow Welcomes A380! (or Not...)

Sun Sep 04, 2005 12:34 pm

Quoting Eg777er (Reply 11):
What!? Do you even know any history of the 747 program. In case you need educating:

During test flights it became apparent that there were grave problems with the original version of the Pratt 7 Whitney JT-9D.

Yeah, Eg777er, I should know because I was there. Were you? There were problems with the engines. Thank you for proving my point that the B747 program does not compare with the A380. The A380 is alleged to have weight problems and issues with the interior configuration while the B747 had problems with the new engines. Thank you! I could not have stated it better.
 
PlaneDane
Posts: 346
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 3:08 am

RE: Heathrow Welcomes A380! (or Not...)

Sun Sep 04, 2005 12:41 pm

Quoting Kaneporta1 (Reply 18):
Because I'm sure everyone would love to hear every day on the news about APU run ups, undercarriage gravity extentions and stall tests. Maybe we should gather thousands of people in Toulouse every time an A380 takes off.

Was it really necessary to be so childish and post such a sarcastic and unnecessary comment? But, since you insist, Boeing does make available information during flight test programs that will provide status on daily events, successes, problems, etc.

Kaneporta1, are you an expert in the aerospace industry? What is your experience with flight testing programs?
 
eg777er
Topic Author
Posts: 1782
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2000 11:11 pm

RE: Heathrow Welcomes A380! (or Not...)

Sun Sep 04, 2005 12:45 pm

"What goes around, comes around" in British usage, at least, refers to concerns that are disproven and then retun in almost identical format at a later date, which is why I included it as a statement after the post. It's also not a "cliche", but I'll let that pass...

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 14):
So the time between first flight and airline service was one year. This is not to say that airline operation went smoothly. The unreliability would not be tolerated today, but airplane program management has advanced substantially over the past 35 years, preventing many of these early teething problems. In addition, the 747 high bypass engines were very new technology at the time so those problems are unlikely to be repeated.

Your note about dispatch reliability is correct. Today's airlines would not accept a 747 that was so "unexperienced". Airlines now guarantee a dispatch reliability at EOS that can only be guaranteed after extenisve testing and route proving. Additionally, the A380 is a vastly more complex airframe than the 747-100, even considering just one factor, the cabin, so it is understandable that testing would take longer.
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 9310
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: Heathrow Welcomes A380! (or Not...)

Sun Sep 04, 2005 12:47 pm

>> So, all new aircraft programs have problems, from 747 to 777 to A320 to A380, and it is naive and/or stupid to think otherwise.

The PW4000 and Trent 800 powered 777 did enter service on-time. There has been such a quantum-leap in aircraft design that systems integration should not be plauging the production of a 21st century airliner. Period.

If you want to compare a the first-generation widebody with first-generation high-bypass turbofan engines designed with little advanced tools to an aircraft of only marginally larger scope designed with every high-tech tool (including CAD design) and call it comparing Apples to Apples, then by all means, make my day.
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
eg777er
Topic Author
Posts: 1782
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2000 11:11 pm

RE: Heathrow Welcomes A380! (or Not...)

Sun Sep 04, 2005 12:49 pm

Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 20):
Yeah, Eg777er, I should know because I was there. Were you? There were problems with the engines. Thank you for proving my point that the B747 program does not compare with the A380. The A380 is alleged to have weight problems and issues with the interior configuration while the B747 had problems with the new engines. Thank you! I could not have stated it better.

My point is that all aircraft programs, of which interiors, weight and or engines are only components of the whole, have issues, and that to hold one program up against an other as being an example of perfection when that isn't the case, is frankly misguided.

And I note that your profile says you're 36-45. At the oldest that would make you 9 years old in 1969. Thank you for your valuable input.....and goodbye.
 
PlaneDane
Posts: 346
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 3:08 am

RE: Heathrow Welcomes A380! (or Not...)

Sun Sep 04, 2005 1:52 pm

Quoting Eg777er (Reply 24):
And I note that your profile says you're 36-45. At the oldest that would make you 9 years old in 1969. Thank you for your valuable input.....and goodbye.

Sure enough, I was. I grew up in Seattle. I had uncles, neighbors, father's friends and other relatives on the program back then, and as I was fascinated with the 747 program, they kept me up-to-date on all that was going on and that they could tell me. I heard daily about all the testing, successes, challenges, setbacks, working with the airlines, suppliers, etc.

Yes, those were good times and really gave me the passion to pursue a long and satisfying career in aviation ever since. Eg777er, thank you and good night!
 
User avatar
TripleDelta
Screener
Posts: 1280
Joined: Sat Jul 17, 2004 4:13 pm

RE: Heathrow Welcomes A380! (or Not...)

Sun Sep 04, 2005 5:16 pm

Putting aside the counter-productive A v B squabbles, that was a very good and informative article. It can only be expected that any new aircraft will have some teething troubles, since there were few, if no, commercial aircraft that went from prototype to production without at least some problems, major or minor.

Just as the 747 was a groundbreaker in its own time, so is the A380 in its own right today. Aeronautical tech in the 70s was different from the one we have now and we can only expect the problems facing the A380 being different from those that faced the 747. Both the 747 and A380 are noteworthy in the fact that they combined the best, separate, advancements of technology into a single airframe. While new and improved engines were the highlight (both positive and negative) of the 747's entry into service, so are the composite airframe components of the A380 today (used on the scale of the A380).

Personally, I hold the view that the 747-100 and A380-800 are very different aircraft, products of different engineers, different times and different political and economical climates - and different challenges, schedules and operational issues await them, which brings about a lot of different problems. The article above is very fitting to the situation, as it describes simply the practical issues and quirks of introducing a new groundbreaking type into service, be it B747, A380 or an Airbus MD-787.
Hawkeye: "It doesn't make any sense."
Radar: "Well, none of it makes any sense. You just have to send in the right number of forms." - MASH 4077
 
philb
Posts: 2645
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 5:53 am

RE: Heathrow Welcomes A380! (or Not...)

Sun Sep 04, 2005 6:39 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 23):
There has been such a quantum-leap in aircraft design that systems integration should not be plauging the production of a 21st century airliner. Period.

One of the most naive comments I have ever read regarding aircraft production.


The writer obviously has no experience of product design and manufacture or of the history of engineering and the lessons it teaches.
 
kaneporta1
Posts: 742
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2005 12:22 am

RE: Heathrow Welcomes A380! (or Not...)

Sun Sep 04, 2005 10:47 pm

Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 21):
Kaneporta1, are you an expert in the aerospace industry? What is your experience with flight testing programs?

I work as a design engineer for Airbus UK in Filton. Next question...
I'd rather die peacefully in my sleep, like my grandfather, not terrified and screaming, like his passengers
 
jush
Posts: 1495
Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2005 2:10 am

RE: Heathrow Welcomes A380! (or Not...)

Sun Sep 04, 2005 11:24 pm

Thank you very much indeed for that article. Shows pretty well that the same crappy discussion about evacuation and airport compatability was going on some 30 to 40 years ago....
Now the 747 was a success all the way and the A380 will be as well.
Problems always have to be solved when going new ways of engineering but engineers usually overcome those problems and we can enjoy the product.

So again thank you very much indeed.

Regards
jush
There is one problem with airbus. Though their products are engineering marvels they lack passion, completely.
 
Toulouse
Posts: 2200
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 4:30 pm

RE: Heathrow Welcomes A380! (or Not...)

Mon Sep 05, 2005 1:32 am

Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 8):
No, Toulouse, you got it wrong

No PlaneDane, I'm sorry but I think you have got it wrong. No offence meant, but I would suggest you reat my post more carefully before telling me whether I got it right or wrong!

Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 8):
You cannot rightly criticize people for

I did NOT criticise anyone!

Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 8):
being labeled as an Airbus critic...

I did NOT label anyone as an Airbus critic.

And BTW, I sand by my quote you responded to!

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 16):
A more appropo cliche would be "history repeating itself" or "some things never change" or something like that

Yes, that may have avoided some confusion for some!
Long live Aer Lingus!
 
PlaneDane
Posts: 346
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 3:08 am

RE: Heathrow Welcomes A380! (or Not...)

Mon Sep 05, 2005 6:48 am

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 3):
Basically, from what I understand, today the famous Airbus bashers on a.net and many sources in the media are worried about the size of the 380, concerned about emergency evacuations, teething problems and the money airports are going to have and are already spending to accommodate the 380... basically the exact same situation as with the 747.

Toulouse, I am sorry. At first, I thought the reference to "famous Airbus bashers" was a bit inflammatory and unnecessary, but I now understand that I was wrong.

I extend my sincerest apologies to you.
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 9310
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: Heathrow Welcomes A380! (or Not...)

Mon Sep 05, 2005 1:16 pm

>> One of the most naive comments I have ever read regarding aircraft production. The writer obviously has no experience of product design and manufacture or of the history of engineering and the lessons it teaches.

Phillb, the history of engineering does show us pleanty of examples of projects of equal or greater scope to the A380 completed on time, on budget, while achieving all performance goals.  Yeah sure

Even in the aerospace industry, the 777 is an example of a project that experienced no manufacture-related delays. The worst issues were UA's in-flight entertainment system not working perfectly and BA recieving poor support from GE. In other words: there is precedent for getting it done right.

As I said above, the techology at the disposal of Airbus and Boeing makes system integration a managable task. We're not talking about the development of complex airfoiles, or application of advanced materials, we're talking about getting all the nuts and bolts to fit together. That is precisely what CAD and CATIA software is for. It was used exclusivly for the 777, which slashed the amount of test hardware Boeing/suppliers had to build. It allows designers to simulate every single inch of the airplane in incredible detail, so much so that the first 777 components fit together so well you could not slip a piece of paper between them.

And that was in 1990. A decade later in the 2000-2005 timeframe, Airbus (developing their 3rd generation widebody) should not have a problem with wiring!
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
philb
Posts: 2645
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 5:53 am

RE: Heathrow Welcomes A380! (or Not...)

Mon Sep 05, 2005 4:13 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 32):
And that was in 1990. A decade later in the 2000-2005 timeframe, Airbus (developing their 3rd generation widebody) should not have a problem with wiring!

Like NASA shouldn't be having problems with tiles on the Shuttle on a 30 year old design they have had all the time in the world to perfect....I could go on ad infinitum with engineering projects which have hit unexpected snags, snags which "experts" say couldn't/shouldn't have occurred and problems which "technology" had previously "solved" which crop up again.

Just because Boeing had a fairly easy ride with the 777 doesn't mean Boeing and the world have done away with two basic rules of life

"If it can go wrong it will"

"Human beings make errors"

and the well known engineering rule

"a good drawing doesn't make a good system/component/product".

I made a very good living over the years holding meetings/seminars and conferences to help resolve problems with the design/build and operation of a wide range of manufactured items which were cutting edge, used the latest techniques and should have been easy to build/simple to operate - which weren't.

As for sending me private messages staing I haven't got a grip on reality, send me that again in 30 odd years time when you have some EXPERIENCE of how life works across a range of industries across the world.
 
CHRISBA777ER
Posts: 3715
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2001 12:12 pm

RE: Heathrow Welcomes A380! (or Not...)

Mon Sep 05, 2005 9:21 pm

Quoting Philb (Reply 33):
As for sending me private messages staing I haven't got a grip on reality, send me that again in 30 odd years time when you have some EXPERIENCE of how life works across a range of industries across the world

DfwRevolution:

Dude dont argue with The Man. He's got decades of experience and you cant argue with that. Dont even try man.  Wink

For what its worth - i agree with you.

I think Boeing and Airbus are both at the cutting edge of modern technoology and i dont think there's any question that the R&D process pre and post prototype has been sped up dramatically and that this should translate to savings in time for the programme.

People bang on about how revolutionary the A380 is but at the end of the day its just a very big jetliner just like what we already have, surely? As far as I can tell, theres nothing in it that is really groundbreaking apart from the size - the engineering principles, development & manufacturing techniques etc - surely there isnt that much difference.
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
philb
Posts: 2645
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 5:53 am

RE: Heathrow Welcomes A380! (or Not...)

Tue Sep 06, 2005 12:09 am

Just about the reply I'd expect from an analyst.

Go and get some real experience on the shop floor or working for a supplier in sales or tech development, matching user needs against product capability.

I remember when CAD/CAM was going to be the saviour of British engineering. A magnificent tool but it only works properly when the software is 100% and designers put it to its intended use and it doesn't solve everything.

When will you 20 somethings and younger realise that some of us have been there, done that and come away much wiser with rather modified beliefs in the wonders of technology.
 
CHRISBA777ER
Posts: 3715
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2001 12:12 pm

RE: Heathrow Welcomes A380! (or Not...)

Tue Sep 06, 2005 12:29 am

Quoting Philb (Reply 35):

LOL i could have written that response for you!
Ixnay on the Condescension there Chet!

Yes we know you've been there, seen it, done it, watched it, flown it, organised several conferences on it, bought several t-shirts, commented on it, and probably written the authoratitve text on the subject.

We know.

We are fully appreciative of the fact that you are the aviation oracle and we are all but mere nothings, wet-behind-the-ears, know-nothing kiddies.

I am really lucky there is good money in Commercial Aviation Business Analysis because with my lack of experience, general stupidity, dimness, and massive gaps in whatever knowledge i may have picked up from your good self, i'd probably have to be working in Burger King.

Wow - how lucky am I eh?

[Edited 2005-09-05 17:58:32]
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
Toulouse
Posts: 2200
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 4:30 pm

RE: Heathrow Welcomes A380! (or Not...)

Tue Sep 06, 2005 12:49 am

Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 31):
Toulouse, I am sorry. At first, I thought the reference to "famous Airbus bashers" was a bit inflammatory and unnecessary, but I now understand that I was wrong.

I extend my sincerest apologies to you.

No need to apologise PlaneDnae.
Long live Aer Lingus!
 
Eirjet
Posts: 317
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 1:09 am

RE: Heathrow Welcomes A380! (or Not...)

Tue Sep 06, 2005 1:06 am

Correct me if I'm wrong but the first 747 that landed at heathrow (as mentioned on the threads starter) was this not the same aircraft involved in the Tenerife disaster with the KLM 747? Or was it Lockerby?

Not sure of some spellings so please be nice........
Aviation has a 100% record, we've never left one up there......
 
CHRISBA777ER
Posts: 3715
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2001 12:12 pm

RE: Heathrow Welcomes A380! (or Not...)

Tue Sep 06, 2005 5:51 pm

I know the Lockerbie one was Clipper Maid of the Seas - the Tenerife one was Clipper Victor IIRC.

Does this help?
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
Gemuser
Posts: 5118
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 12:07 pm

RE: Heathrow Welcomes A380! (or Not...)

Tue Sep 06, 2005 6:13 pm

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 10):
Firstly, whem the 747 was introduced it was a roughly a 100% increase in passenger numbers,(180 to 360) compared to a roughly 25% increase in passenger numbers of the 380 over the 747. So airport authorities had a lot more scope for recovering their costs to accommodate the 747

Ruscoe, however the flaw in your argument is that you do not account for the relative cost of works needed to make airports compataible with the B747 v A380. Generally speaking modifications to airports for the B747 were MUCH more extensive & expensive than those for the A380, so there is much less cost to be recovered.

At SYD for example there is nothing required on the scale of the runway/taxiway modifications including the extentions into Botany Bay made to accomadate the B747. What is now Pier A (the orginal) was extensively modified to take B747 & less than 4 years after it was opened too!

Gemuser
DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
 
Eirjet
Posts: 317
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 1:09 am

RE: Heathrow Welcomes A380! (or Not...)

Tue Sep 06, 2005 6:52 pm

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 40):
I know the Lockerbie one was Clipper Maid of the Seas - the Tenerife one was Clipper Victor IIRC.

Does this help?

Thanks CHRISBA777ER, maybe I was thinking of some other aircraft. The reason I posted was that a few months back I was watching tv and there was some mention of an aircraft (thought it was an aircraft that crashed) the TV made the point that the same aircraft was the first boeing 747 to land in Heathrow!!! Obviously mis-heard.

Thanks again
Aviation has a 100% record, we've never left one up there......
 
CHRISBA777ER
Posts: 3715
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2001 12:12 pm

RE: Heathrow Welcomes A380! (or Not...)

Tue Sep 06, 2005 6:59 pm

No worries fella - let me know what you find out - i'd be interested to know.
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
ac777233lr
Posts: 72
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 10:20 am

RE: Heathrow Welcomes A380! (or Not...)

Wed Sep 07, 2005 8:34 am

Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 8):
So, if you were to actually be honest with us and yourself, you'd have to admit that the situation with the A380 does not resemble the early days of the B747. Let me add that people can also question these things without being labeled as an Airbus critic...

Surely the situations are not the same, the 747 suffered from far more serious problems, but it was a much larger leap in technology.
DC3 DC8 DC9 DC10 MD82 MD83 L1011 707 727 732 733 734 738 739 7M8 742 743 744 717 752 753 763 762 77L 77W 788 789 A300 A310 319 320 321 332 333 343 346 388 VC10 HS121 BAC1-11 BAE146 Concorde IL62 Metroloner Dash7 Dash8 Beech1900 CRJ E75 E90
 
Ruscoe
Posts: 1749
Joined: Sun Aug 22, 1999 5:41 pm

RE: Heathrow Welcomes A380! (or Not...)

Wed Sep 07, 2005 2:27 pm

Thanks Gemuser,
I have not been following the cost of airport modifications, so you might be quite right.

Ruscoe

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos