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N839MH
Topic Author
Posts: 303
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2001 4:05 pm

DFW's Terminal D - Too Expensive To Operate

Mon Sep 05, 2005 1:10 pm

Champion Air advised DFW airport they will be leaving DFW
by the end of the year due to several reasons, but the main
reason is the extremely high cost of operating out of the new
international terminal D.

Leases are around $96 sq.ft compared at the Delta terminal of $28,
prior to terminal D opening...along with landing fees going way up!

Also conversations going on that Aeromexico will be pulling out of
DFW due to cost of operating out of D now.

What next, Korean Air moving their flight to IAH...it wouldn't surprise me!

Jeff Fagen and Kevin Cox are really in big trouble....oh well, I am sure
they have a golden parachute plan just in case.

AA isn't dumb...they know once they agree to move over to D, they will
be responsible for the "incredible" baggage system which is running about
a 40% scanning accuracy right now...DIA sound familiar?

"Set Luv Free"!!!!
Solodude!
 
kanebear
Posts: 852
Joined: Tue May 28, 2002 12:06 am

RE: DFW's Terminal D - Too Expensive To Operate

Mon Sep 05, 2005 2:21 pm

Oh well, at least we got one thing out of this mess... the damn TrAAin is HISTORY. I find it utterly amazing that I can go A/B/C/D/E in less time than it took me to go C-B previously... AND I can go in the opposite direction. Yet one more reason I vastly prefer DFW to IAH.
 
dfwagt
Posts: 72
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2005 2:39 pm

RE: DFW's Terminal D - Too Expensive To Operate

Mon Sep 05, 2005 2:48 pm

At DFW, the baggage system is the same that they had in DEN. Thats why we have not moved over there yet.
 
DAL767400ER
Posts: 5084
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 2:47 am

RE: DFW's Terminal D - Too Expensive To Operate

Mon Sep 05, 2005 5:31 pm

Quoting N839MH (Thread starter):
What next, Korean Air moving their flight to IAH...it wouldn't surprise me!

Especially considering that Terminal E in IAH is cheaper than Terminal D in DFW, and that both KE and CO are Skyteam members. It would be a win-win situation.

Quoting N839MH (Thread starter):
Also conversations going on that Aeromexico will be pulling out of DFW due to cost of operating out of D now.

Was AM forced to move from E to D? Seemed they were pretty happy at D together with DL/NW/CO.
 
Cruiser
Posts: 941
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2005 2:08 am

RE: DFW's Terminal D - Too Expensive To Operate

Mon Sep 05, 2005 9:15 pm

Who is putting in the baggage system? It certainly sounds like T1 at Pearson. From what I can tell, it was also delayed due to the baggage system.

James
Leahy on Per Seat Costs: "Have you seen the B-2 fly-by at almost US$1bn a copy? It has only 2 seats!"
 
c5onknees
Posts: 152
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 8:54 am

RE: DFW's Terminal D - Too Expensive To Operate

Mon Sep 05, 2005 10:01 pm

My dad said the new term D is a nightmare,Customs is about 1/4 mile walk(if you park at D17) where the old one was a mere few feet,and the new one looks like a cattle coral. Its a big room with poor signage and no queue's that once you pass immigration it funnels thru a small passage way into baggage claim and it just does not look that user friendly. And what is that blue thing (maze?) in the departure lobby? Anyway everything is a nightmare with change and it will most likely grow on you.
 
Cory6188
Posts: 2711
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2004 12:29 am

RE: DFW's Terminal D - Too Expensive To Operate

Mon Sep 05, 2005 11:12 pm

While personally, I've never been to DFW, from what has been described, I sometimes wonder what goes through the brains of terminal designers when they're building a new terminal. They have completely free reign over the design, and one would think that they could make one that is super efficient and user-friendly, yet it still ends up having a ton of issues.

Why is it so hard to build a good, efficient terminal?
 
LY4XELD
Posts: 659
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2000 5:14 am

RE: DFW's Terminal D - Too Expensive To Operate

Tue Sep 06, 2005 12:32 am

Interesting, but what's your source? I haven't heard any news on airlines pulling out of DFW because of the new terminal costs.
 
N839MH
Topic Author
Posts: 303
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2001 4:05 pm

RE: DFW's Terminal D - Too Expensive To Operate

Tue Sep 06, 2005 12:38 am

AM along with all the other airlines operating International flights (with the exception of AA...for now) had to move to Terminal D i.e. "Fagens Taj-mahal."

A lot of money is being lost right now at DFW. The Delta hangar, the airport more than doubled the lease per month from what Delta was paying. An FAA inspector was saying DL was paying $180K a month, but now the airport is wanting $500K a month...$7 million a year. Not sure if that is still a good deal, but WOW...this airport has some HUGE ones!

"Set Luv Free"
Solodude!
 
LY4XELD
Posts: 659
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2000 5:14 am

RE: DFW's Terminal D - Too Expensive To Operate

Tue Sep 06, 2005 12:43 am

What's your point with all of this? The improvements at DFW were well known along with the cost increases. Again, what is your source of all of this?

"Keep DFW Strong!"
 
coa747
Posts: 380
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2005 3:11 pm

RE: DFW's Terminal D - Too Expensive To Operate

Tue Sep 06, 2005 1:22 am

Sounds like the SeaTac issue all over again. Yes DFW needed a new international terminal there is no debate over that. But did it need to be so elaborate. I believe that the operators of DFW had the conception that if they built this huge new monolith that airlines would come. Fact is DFW will never generate the type of O&D traffic of say IAH. Worse than that they now risk loosing other airlines because of the huge increases in lease payments. While this can not yet be confirmed I wouldn't doubt that Champion and others are considering it. I think only time will tell but the Air India decision should be a good indication of what the future holds for DFW.
 
king
Posts: 183
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 2:58 am

RE: DFW's Terminal D - Too Expensive To Operate

Tue Sep 06, 2005 1:54 am

The main reason Champion Air is pulling out of DFW is because their tour operator (I forget who it is but I think it is Fun Jet Vacations) is not renewing their contract with Champion.
 
FlewGSW
Posts: 148
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 5:45 am

RE: DFW's Terminal D - Too Expensive To Operate

Tue Sep 06, 2005 2:18 am

AA, Eagle and TACA are the only three airlines with international flights that are not yet in Terminal D.

The baggage system still has about eight more weeks of modifications and testing until AA, Eagle and TACA might sign off. Once signed off, then AA, Eagle and TACA will have 30 days until they must relocate all international arrivals and departures into Terminal D.

So their first flights might not be until about December 2.
 
Omad420
Posts: 22
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 2:00 am

RE: DFW's Terminal D - Too Expensive To Operate

Tue Sep 06, 2005 3:45 am

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 3):
Especially considering that Terminal E in IAH is cheaper than Terminal D in DFW, and that both KE and CO are Skyteam members. It would be a win-win situation

If KE moved to IAH, it would move to Terminal D, Terminal E is only for CO only.
One Question, I haven't been to DFW in a while, is the new terminal designed just like all the other terminals (arched terminal).

-omad
SERENITY NOW!!! SERENITY NOW!!!
 
N276AASTT
Posts: 592
Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2004 6:19 pm

RE: DFW's Terminal D - Too Expensive To Operate

Tue Sep 06, 2005 4:39 am


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Quoting Omad420 (Reply 13):
I haven't been to DFW in a while, is the new terminal designed just like all the other terminals (arched terminal)

Omad420, the new Terminal D is squared of at the corners while the other terminals are "U" shaped. I think the designers could've kept the same "U" shape while designing a more modern terminal. But, that's just me.
Dejale Caer tu el Peso! YOMO
 
N839MH
Topic Author
Posts: 303
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2001 4:05 pm

RE: DFW's Terminal D - Too Expensive To Operate

Tue Sep 06, 2005 4:47 am

Ly4xeld...My source would be from Champion itself and confirmed by a DFW terminal manager.

FunJets and Ryan Air are hooking up to cover the expensive cost to operate out of DFW...this left Champion by themselves. Champion said with the "new" expense of Terminal D, they have no choice but to pull out of DFW at the end of the year.

Also, employees with AM have said the same thing about their revenues do not cover the "new" cost of doing business at DFW.
Solodude!
 
king
Posts: 183
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 2:58 am

RE: DFW's Terminal D - Too Expensive To Operate

Tue Sep 06, 2005 5:57 am

Maybe AA's delayed move to Terminal D has to do more with cost vs. the baggage system. AA will occupy 2/3 of the terminal. How will they be able to afford it?

It is a beautiful terminal that can be used for domestic and international terminal. It is the best designed airport that I have been to. The few complaints that I have heard so far are, I feel, without merit unless you have experienced it in person.

The terminal will be hopping when AA makes the move.
 
airstatdfw
Posts: 378
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2004 12:04 am

RE: DFW's Terminal D - Too Expensive To Operate

Tue Sep 06, 2005 6:29 am

Quoting N839MH (Thread starter):
Leases are around $96 sq.ft compared at the Delta terminal of $28,
prior to terminal D opening...along with landing fees going way up!

I don't know where you got those numbers from but they are no where close to what the published lease rates are. Your numbers are a little high for both terminals. The reason they are leaving is b/c they lost the contract to the charter company and Ryan International picked it up.
 
aa777flyer
Posts: 1017
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2001 8:45 am

RE: DFW's Terminal D - Too Expensive To Operate

Tue Sep 06, 2005 9:06 am

In all likely hood from what I have heard through the grapevine, AA will NOT move into terminal D till January 2006. With the baggage system comming on line late Oct the 30 day count down would put opening a new terminal right in the holidays, better to wait it out and work out the bugs during a slow time.
The TSA was created to make the post office look efficient!
 
HPRamper
Posts: 5059
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 4:22 am

RE: DFW's Terminal D - Too Expensive To Operate

Tue Sep 06, 2005 9:56 am

N276AASTT, I'd never seen that airport layout before. Very interesting...are the three smaller peripheral runways for anything specific, like GA or cargo, military etc or are they for normal commercial use as well?
 
king
Posts: 183
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 2:58 am

RE: DFW's Terminal D - Too Expensive To Operate

Tue Sep 06, 2005 10:03 am

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 19):
N276AASTT, I'd never seen that airport layout before. Very interesting...are the three smaller peripheral runways for anything specific, like GA or cargo, military etc or are they for normal commercial use as well?

No runway at DFW is small. They are all commercial runways, 7 total. The master plan calls for an 8th runway.

You don't see much general aviation at DFW. There are too many cheaper airports in the metroplex.
 
HPRamper
Posts: 5059
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 4:22 am

RE: DFW's Terminal D - Too Expensive To Operate

Tue Sep 06, 2005 10:15 am

I never said any were small, they all look like commercial length. But the two in the upper part of the picture, not directly adjacent to the terminal are noticeably shorter than the others. My question was more emphasizing the peripheral locations of the runways near some other building complexes. The one in the upper middle of the picture looks to be near a cargo complex, probably FedEx and UPS.
 
commavia
Posts: 11489
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: DFW's Terminal D - Too Expensive To Operate

Tue Sep 06, 2005 10:22 am

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 19):
are the three smaller peripheral runways for anything specific, like GA or cargo, military etc or are they for normal commercial use as well?

They're all used for all purposes. DFW is, to my knowledge, the only airport in the world with seven non-intersecting runways, and one of only a few airports in general that have seven runways. DFW is huge!

The four parallel runways are all pretty darn long -- one is over 14,000 ft, IIRC, and are the primary use runways, IMO, for the airport. In other words, those four get the most use. The outer parallel runway, along with the two on a diagonal, also see use but are -- at least in my experience -- not used as much, mostly for overflow.
 
AAR90
Posts: 3140
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2000 11:51 am

RE: DFW's Terminal D - Too Expensive To Operate

Tue Sep 06, 2005 10:29 am

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 19):
N276AASTT, I'd never seen that airport layout before. Very interesting...are the three smaller peripheral runways for anything specific, like GA or cargo, military etc or are they for normal commercial use as well?

There are no "smaller peripheral runways" at KDFW. Currently KDFW can handle 4 simultaneous arrivals: i.e. South Flow uses 13R, 18R, 17C [being lengthened] and 17L for arrivals while 18L, 17R, 13L and sometimes 18R are used for departures. Reverse everything for a North Flow. RNAV departures should be starting Tuesday which will (supposedly) increase the departure rate even more.
*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
 
N839MH
Topic Author
Posts: 303
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2001 4:05 pm

RE: DFW's Terminal D - Too Expensive To Operate

Tue Sep 06, 2005 11:21 am

Airstatdfw...the lease numbers were what a manager with Champion was quoting for both terminals...but also which was stated with Ryan and Funjet hooked up with the new contracts.

Bottom line, DFW is very expensive to operate to/from!
Solodude!
 
2H4
Posts: 7960
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:11 pm

RE: DFW's Terminal D - Too Expensive To Operate

Tue Sep 06, 2005 11:50 am




Quoting N839MH (Reply 24):
Bottom line, DFW is very expensive to operate to/from!



...And people wonder why WN wants nothing to do with the place...


 sarcastic 



2H4


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