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PPVRA
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TLV-SSA-GRU Charter Flights By Arkia

Fri Sep 09, 2005 5:12 am

There have been rumors of a Brazil-Israel flight around for a while, even that EL AL planned a GIG service with a B747. But for some reason or another the idea never materialized.

However, today, Israeli charter airline Arkia operated their first charter flight linking TLV to SSA, with continuation to GRU.


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The information is reported by Panrotas. A/c type was not specified.

One reason behind the charter flights mentioned is the increase of tourists visiting the "holy land".

Estimated fare is at 600 USD.

Cheers

PS: 240 seat a/c is reported, so I'm guessing it's a B757-300? They don't seem to operate B767s.

[Edited 2005-09-08 22:19:40]
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
ly7e7
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RE: TLV-SSA-GRU Charter Flights By Arkia

Fri Sep 09, 2005 8:08 am

Quoting PPVRA (Thread starter):
Estimated fare is at 600 USD.

That's "dirt cheap"  Smile

Makes me want to try it, although I do know how bad IZ can be on a route this long...
2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
semsem
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RE: TLV-SSA-GRU Charter Flights By Arkia

Fri Sep 09, 2005 10:23 am

El Al over 30 years ago wanted to fly to Brazil and continue to Buenos Aires but apparently Varig did not want Brazil to grant them the landing rights. That's what my father's cousin who had a travel agency in Rio told me.

[Edited 2005-09-09 03:24:19]
 
Brasuca
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RE: TLV-SSA-GRU Charter Flights By Arkia

Fri Sep 09, 2005 4:20 pm

PPVRA,
Doing a search, I found Arkia effective fleet composed by 3 B757 and 4 ATR 42/72 (plus 2 stored B737). Just wondering where they had a stop-over between TLV-SSA (maybe ACC or DKR?).

There is a relevant demand between Brazil/Argentina - Israel, which is coped by European flights. I guess LH gets the most traffic.

Israel ranks in 15th with biggest brazilian community of abroad residents, plus technological relationship and huge religious tourism. A really big gap left behind.

Israeli airlines are not allowed to overfly most of Arab countries, nor any flight to Israel, regardless the airline, is allowed to overfly them either. Has any African country sanctioned this ban? If so, such flights would not be possible.
Varig, Varig, Varig
 
4xRuv
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RE: TLV-SSA-GRU Charter Flights By Arkia

Fri Sep 09, 2005 4:51 pm

I remember several years ago, LY had charters to Brazil via Spain....

The Jewish community in Argentina is huge, and I guess there is a demand for flights to Israel.
Most of the traffic from Israel to South America is carried either through Spain (Iberia), or the US.

I must say, that the normal IZ 757 are quite a nightmare, and I really wouldn't want to do a long-haul on them.
 
Brasuca
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RE: TLV-SSA-GRU Charter Flights By Arkia

Fri Sep 09, 2005 5:34 pm

Quoting 4xRuv (Reply 4):
I remember several years ago, LY had charters to Brazil via Spain....

So LY is likely to undergo this ban in African countries too.

Quoting 4xRuv (Reply 4):
The Jewish community in Argentina is huge, and I guess there is a demand for flights to Israel.

So right! Today, +395,000 Jews live in Argentina, mostly in Buenos Aires, insofar 150,000 Jews in Brazil.

Quoting 4xRuv (Reply 4):
Most of the traffic from Israel to South America is carried either through Spain (Iberia), or the US.

Amazing! I guess CO plays this role between Israel and South Am. - But what a biiiiiiiig detour!!! Curiously, do you have more figures? I happened to see lots of jews in FRA connecting to Brazil and Argentina.

Quoting 4xRuv (Reply 4):
I must say, that the normal IZ 757 are quite a nightmare, and I really wouldn't want to do a long-haul on them.

For such a fare of USD 600, I think most people wouldn't care what plane it is. I wouldn't.  bigthumbsup 


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Varig, Varig, Varig
 
semsem
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RE: TLV-SSA-GRU Charter Flights By Arkia

Sat Sep 10, 2005 12:54 am

For a short while TAP were flying from Lisbon to Tel Aviv and carrying connecting traffic to Brazil. LH offer good fares to South America. My cousin flys with them to Buenos Aires every year.
 
ly7e7
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RE: TLV-SSA-GRU Charter Flights By Arkia

Sat Sep 10, 2005 3:04 am

Quoting Semsem (Reply 6):
For a short while TAP were flying from Lisbon to Tel Aviv

When was that?
2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
BrunoSBGR
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RE: TLV-SSA-GRU Charter Flights By Arkia

Sat Sep 10, 2005 6:00 am

Quoting 4xRuv (Reply 4):
I must say, that the normal IZ 757 are quite a nightmare, and I really wouldn't want to do a long-haul on them.

So, is the TLV-SSA-GRU flight operated by the 757s??

I'm not quite sure if the 757 has sufficient range to flight that first leg, even with payload restrictions!
Private pilot. Frequent flyer. Aviation geek. Proud of all 3.
 
LipeGIG
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RE: TLV-SSA-GRU Charter Flights By Arkia

Sat Sep 10, 2005 6:29 am

In fact the plane used was the 757-300 (Flight code AIZ0613) aircraft prefix 4X-BAU, and it made a technical stop at Las Palmas. That's the plane (not at SSA or GRU). 107 pax stayed at SSA. I don`t have numbers for GRU.


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Regards,
Felipe

[Edited 2005-09-09 23:36:59]
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
LipeGIG
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RE: TLV-SSA-GRU Charter Flights By Arkia

Sat Sep 10, 2005 6:40 am

Probably Arkia will request one weekly regular frequency to fly GRU-XXX-TLV. A new flight (charter) is confirmed to September, 16.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
semsem
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RE: TLV-SSA-GRU Charter Flights By Arkia

Sat Sep 10, 2005 8:19 am

Arkia are already advertising these flights.

TAP flew to Tel Aviv I believe in 1994 but it did not last too long. El Al also flew to Lisbon for a few years but goy out. Arkia offer charter flights there.
 
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rg828
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RE: TLV-SSA-GRU Charter Flights By Arkia

Sat Sep 10, 2005 10:06 am

El Al operated a number of charters to SSA in 2001/2002 using 767-200s.

Dont know the arrangements back then, but they brought a lot of "Lonely Planet" type of tourists, most of them very young.

The word is that Arkia also requested more charters to SSA, to begin later this year - as well as a scheduled service to GRU.
I dont know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everyone
 
LipeGIG
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RE: TLV-SSA-GRU Charter Flights By Arkia

Sat Sep 10, 2005 11:52 am

Good news.
I am out of Sao Paulo since Aug 12 but probably they are advertising the flight in SP market too. And probably they will adjust the stop to LPA. As there is no plane change, it's not a problem for customers that nowadays connects thru FRA or CDG.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
semsem
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RE: TLV-SSA-GRU Charter Flights By Arkia

Sat Sep 10, 2005 2:07 pm

For a very short while Pluna had a flight from Montivedeo to Tel Aviv.
 
RedChili
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RE: TLV-SSA-GRU Charter Flights By Arkia

Sat Sep 10, 2005 3:03 pm

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 9):
In fact the plane used was the 757-300

What kind of seat pitch do they have on those planes? I saw them arriving at ARN with around 260 pax several times.
Top 10 airplanes: B737, T154, B747, IL96, T134, IL62, A320, MD80, B757, DC10
 
PPVRA
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RE: TLV-SSA-GRU Charter Flights By Arkia

Sun Sep 11, 2005 6:14 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 9):
In fact the plane used was the 757-300

First B753 in Brazil ever?

I think so...
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
hardiwv
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RE: TLV-SSA-GRU Charter Flights By Arkia

Sun Sep 11, 2005 6:24 am

Quoting RG828 (Reply 12):
The word is that Arkia also requested more charters to SSA, to begin later this year - as well as a scheduled service to GRU.



Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 10):
Probably Arkia will request one weekly regular frequency to fly GRU-XXX-TLV. A new flight (charter) is confirmed to September, 16

Interesting. I have the feeling this will turn into a weekly regular charter. I also think they will drop GRU and only operate TLV-SSA.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 9):
In fact the plane used was the 757-300 (Flight code AIZ0613) aircraft prefix 4X-BAU, and it made a technical stop at Las Palmas. That's the plane (not at SSA or GRU). 107 pax stayed at SSA

Again, tks for the precise info, Felipe!

As I thought, the majority of pax are Israelis on holidays in SSA...I dont expect GRU to continue on the route.

Quoting Brasuca (Reply 5):
Today, +395,000 Jews live in Argentina, mostly in Buenos Aires, insofar 150,000 Jews in Brazil.

This is underestimated. You can be sure that the number of Jews in Argentina and Brazil are on the millions.

Rgs,
 
Avianca
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RE: TLV-SSA-GRU Charter Flights By Arkia

Sun Sep 11, 2005 6:28 am

Quoting Brasuca (Reply 3):
There is a relevant demand between Brazil/Argentina - Israel, which is coped by European flights. I guess LH gets the most traffic.



Quoting 4xRuv (Reply 4):
Most of the traffic from Israel to South America is carried either through Spain (Iberia), or the US.

I agree, the most traffic between Brazil, Argentina and Israel, goes with Iberia... we talked about that some days ago in another treat .... Iberia is also very strong with conecting passengers from Israel to other South-American destinations (BOG, CCS etc etc)

regards
Avianca
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
semsem
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RE: TLV-SSA-GRU Charter Flights By Arkia

Sun Sep 11, 2005 6:57 am

>>This is underestimated. You can be sure that the number of Jews in Argentina and Brazil are on the millions.>>

In the millions? This is news to me. In both countries combined about 500,000.
 
Avianca
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RE: TLV-SSA-GRU Charter Flights By Arkia

Sun Sep 11, 2005 7:09 am

Quoting Semsem (Reply 19):
In the millions? This is news to me. In both countries combined about 500,000.

well I do not know exactly but I alway thought that specially in argentina are living more Jews.... maybe many with no relation to Israel but still Jews...

regards
Avianca
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
LipeGIG
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RE: TLV-SSA-GRU Charter Flights By Arkia

Sun Sep 11, 2005 11:29 am

Quoting RedChili (Reply 15):
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 9):
In fact the plane used was the 757-300

What kind of seat pitch do they have on those planes? I saw them arriving at ARN with around 260 pax several times.

In fact this come with 240 seats. Even a high density configuration. But full Y.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 16):
First B753 in Brazil ever?

I think so...

Yes, you right. First 753 in Brazil.

Rgds,
Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
semsem
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RE: TLV-SSA-GRU Charter Flights By Arkia

Sun Sep 11, 2005 5:26 pm

There are only about 250,000 in Argentina. Many left beginning with Peron.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/.../Argentina.html#Jewish%20Community
 
Brasuca
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RE: TLV-SSA-GRU Charter Flights By Arkia

Sun Sep 11, 2005 5:41 pm

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 17):
This is underestimated. You can be sure that the number of Jews in Argentina and Brazil are on the millions.

You can find official numbers in Brazilian Government Statistics Centre, in census-related topic, with the numbers of Jews in Brazil. They display 101,062 total. Brazilian Jew Association claims to be up to 150 thousand.
Here's the link: IBGE

Quoting Avianca (Reply 18):
I agree, the most traffic between Brazil, Argentina and Israel, goes with Iberia... we talked about that some days ago in another treat .... Iberia is also very strong with conecting passengers from Israel to other South-American destinations (BOG, CCS etc etc)

Cool! I'd like to see this thread. Do you still remember which was?

Quoting Semsem (Reply 22):
There are only about 250,000 in Argentina. Many left beginning with Peron.

Sociedad Hebraica Argentina claims virtually up to 390 thousand, but official figures confirm your numbers.
Varig, Varig, Varig
 
hardiwv
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RE: TLV-SSA-GRU Charter Flights By Arkia

Sun Sep 11, 2005 6:01 pm

Quoting Brasuca (Reply 23):
Brazilian Jew Association claims to be up to 150 thousand.

Correct, however, what I meant is that there are many, many non-Israele jews (new Christians). Some of the Portuguese immigrants in Brazil are also of jewish origin. That's why I think the number is much higher but I could be wrong...

Still, 'the community is very small and cannot compare to the 25 million Italians or even 2 million Japanese in Brazil...

Interesting fact: the first Jewish settlment in the Southern Hemisphere was in Recife, REC (first synagoge!) with the arrival of the Dutch in NE Brazil. After some years the Portuguese expelled them, but some remained and still you find a strong Jewish community in REC.

Rgs,
 
Avianca
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RE: TLV-SSA-GRU Charter Flights By Arkia

Sun Sep 11, 2005 8:07 pm

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 21):
In fact this come with 240 seats. Even a high density configuration. But full Y.

I think with 240 it´s ok.

For example I had several flights with Condor B753 and they are equipt with 252 seats (not very comfortable but also not bad)

http://www2.condor.com/tcf/de/Flotte...en_unsereflotte_Boeing757-300.html

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 24):
Correct, however, what I meant is that there are many, many non-Israele jews (new Christians). Some of the Portuguese immigrants in Brazil are also of jewish origin. That's why I think the number is much higher but I could be wrong...

I have the same opinion than you Hardiwv, I think the same situation is in Colombia (many people with jews roots)

Quoting Brasuca (Reply 23):
Cool! I'd like to see this thread. Do you still remember which was?

should be
RE: Flights From USA To Israel (by COSPN Sep 5 2005 in Civil Aviation)

hope this will help  Smile

regards
Avianca
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
Brasuca
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RE: TLV-SSA-GRU Charter Flights By Arkia

Sun Sep 11, 2005 8:58 pm

Quoting Avianca (Reply 25):
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 24):
Correct, however, what I meant is that there are many, many non-Israele jews (new Christians). Some of the Portuguese immigrants in Brazil are also of jewish origin. That's why I think the number is much higher but I could be wrong...

I have the same opinion than you Hardiwv, I think the same situation is in Colombia (many people with jews roots)

As far as demand from Jews between Israel and South America is concerned, we cannot count those with such an old link with Judaism, absolutely.

Portuguese Jesuits presence in Brazil was established in second half of 18th century.

The few exceptions of continuation of this culture are irrelevant for the purpose we are talking about (= the so-called substantial demand).

Those immigrants' descendants are now mixed in different breeds, religions, places and don't even imagine such an origin.

Otherwise, we could say that the French descendants in São Luís (SLZ) generate any demand to France. Yet, zero of them does!

Quoting Avianca (Reply 25):
hope this will help

Thank you!! Much appreciated.

Edit: spelling.

[Edited 2005-09-11 14:01:50]
Varig, Varig, Varig
 
hardiwv
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RE: TLV-SSA-GRU Charter Flights By Arkia

Sun Sep 11, 2005 9:06 pm

Quoting Brasuca (Reply 26):
The few exceptions of continuation of this culture are irrelevant for the purpose we are talking about (= the so-called substantial demand).

Nadson, I never said they would generate air traffic demand...it was just to establish the correct numbers of Jewish in Brazil. We all know the number of people with Jewish origin in Brazil is much higher than 250,000...as I said, mainly because of the new Christians. In my opinion they are easily on the millions...

Rgs,
 
Brasuca
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RE: TLV-SSA-GRU Charter Flights By Arkia

Sun Sep 11, 2005 9:26 pm

Hardiwv,
Ah yes!! I'm Sorry. I see I misunderstood you because we were talking about traffic generating:

Quoting Brasuca (Reply 5):
Quoting 4xRuv (Reply 4):
The Jewish community in Argentina is huge, and I guess there is a demand for flights to Israel.

So right! Today, +395,000 Jews live in Argentina, mostly in Buenos Aires, insofar 150,000 Jews in Brazil.

By this conception, I have a small percentage of Jewish blood. highfive 
Varig, Varig, Varig
 
LipeGIG
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RE: TLV-SSA-GRU Charter Flights By Arkia

Sun Sep 11, 2005 11:24 pm

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 24):
Interesting fact: the first Jewish settlment in the Southern Hemisphere was in Recife, REC (first synagoge!) with the arrival of the Dutch in NE Brazil. After some years the Portuguese expelled them, but some remained and still you find a strong Jewish community in REC.

Hardi, thanks for this very informative post with some of our History.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 27):
Nadson, I never said they would generate air traffic demand...it was just to establish the correct numbers of Jewish in Brazil. We all know the number of people with Jewish origin in Brazil is much higher than 250,000...as I said, mainly because of the new Christians. In my opinion they are easily on the millions...

Just a little comment on this, Jewish in Brazil use to be in good financial situation (A and AA), so they are in fact in the 10% of population that flies more.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
PPSMA
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RE: TLV-SSA-GRU Charter Flights By Arkia

Mon Sep 12, 2005 8:54 am

Just as a piece of info:

1) Most European airlines have reduced their special fares to TLV in the recent years due to this being a low-yield fare (it is a lot more lucrative for them to sell Brazil-Europe alone and not sharing that yield with TLV)]

2) Jews do travel via NYC to TLV either with CO or AA, but I believe most of them do it not because of lower fares when compared to European carriers, but rather because they do business in the US before going on to Israel.

Cheers!
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