User avatar
AirPacific747
Topic Author
Posts: 9701
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 9:52 am

Emirates - Why No 747s?

Tue Sep 13, 2005 10:35 pm

I did a search on this but could not find anything..
Why is Emirates not flying the 747? is the 773 too close in capacity to the 747?
I mean, they could lease some while they are waiting for their A380s..

[Edited 2005-09-13 15:36:54]
 
zvezda
Posts: 8886
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 8:48 pm

RE: Emirates - Why No 747s?

Tue Sep 13, 2005 10:37 pm

EK may be waiting for the B747-500.
 
User avatar
AirPacific747
Topic Author
Posts: 9701
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 9:52 am

RE: Emirates - Why No 747s?

Tue Sep 13, 2005 10:52 pm

747-500? you mean the 747adv?
 
tsnamm
Posts: 563
Joined: Wed May 04, 2005 3:28 am

RE: Emirates - Why No 747s?

Tue Sep 13, 2005 11:03 pm

They have 744 freighters...
 
mandala499
Posts: 6592
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: Emirates - Why No 747s?

Tue Sep 13, 2005 11:15 pm

Do they need the 744?
The 773 gives almost 747 capacity at wayyy less fuel burn  Smile
And they got the 744 on ACMI lease to carry the cargo...

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
User avatar
AirPacific747
Topic Author
Posts: 9701
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 9:52 am

RE: Emirates - Why No 747s?

Tue Sep 13, 2005 11:20 pm

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 4):
Do they need the 744?
The 773 gives almost 747 capacity at wayyy less fuel burn Smile
And they got the 744 on ACMI lease to carry the cargo...

ok, so why do singapore airlines operate both types??
just because of the prestige?
 
N1120A
Posts: 26538
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Emirates - Why No 747s?

Tue Sep 13, 2005 11:25 pm

Quoting AirPacific747 (Thread starter):
is the 773 too close in capacity to the 747?

Not in the least. The 747 is still a significantly higher capacity aircraft

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 4):
The 773 gives almost 747 capacity at wayyy less fuel burn

It is not wayyyy less fuel burn. Of course it is less, but the 744 still has lower CASM than the 77W and therefore had more profit potential.

The main reason EK doesn't fly the 744 at this point is that as they were growing, they had no chance at filling the aircraft. Now, they have a name and are able to fill larger planes but have ordered about a third of all A380s Airbus has sold, meaning the 744 is not needed for them.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
Udo
Posts: 4288
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 5:16 pm

RE: Emirates - Why No 747s?

Tue Sep 13, 2005 11:39 pm

Quoting AirPacific747 (Thread starter):
EK may be waiting for the B747-500.

That was a good one!  laughing 


Regards
Udo
Me & You & a Plane Named Blue...
 
flydubai
Posts: 157
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2005 4:35 am

RE: Emirates - Why No 747s?

Tue Sep 13, 2005 11:40 pm

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 4):
The 773 gives almost 747 capacity at wayyy less fuel burn



Quoting N1120A (Reply 6):
Not in the least. The 747 is still a significantly higher capacity aircraft

According to this website the 773 (three class config) can accommodate 386 passengers. The 744 (three class config) can accommodate 416 passengers. That’s a difference of 30 passengers and a big difference in  dollarsign .
The 773 is a couple of meters longer that the 744.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 6):
The main reason EK doesn't fly the 744 at this point is that as they were growing, they had no chance at filling the aircraft. Now, they have a name and are able to fill larger planes but have ordered about a third of all A380s Airbus has sold, meaning the 744 is not needed for them.

 checkmark 

flydubai
 
N1120A
Posts: 26538
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Emirates - Why No 747s?

Tue Sep 13, 2005 11:46 pm

Quoting Flydubai (Reply 8):
According to this website the 773 (three class config) can accommodate 386 passengers. The 744 (three class config) can accommodate 416 passengers. That’s a difference of 30 passengers and a big difference in .

This website's database is almost always wrong. The 77W holds 280-300 passengers in a normal 3-class configuration (I mean a real normal one, not Boeing/Airbus ones) and about 340 in EK's higher density config. If EK were to pack a 744 with the same density they do a 77W, it would probably hold about 430
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
JRadier
Posts: 3952
Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2004 11:36 pm

RE: Emirates - Why No 747s?

Tue Sep 13, 2005 11:48 pm

Quoting Tsnamm (Reply 3):
They have 744 freighters...

The've got 4, but they are all AMCI (Aircraft, maintenance, Crew, Insurance) leases from Atlas Air
 
User avatar
AirPacific747
Topic Author
Posts: 9701
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 9:52 am

RE: Emirates - Why No 747s?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 12:25 am

Quoting Udo (Reply 7):
That was a good one!

you quoted the wrong person..
 
mandala499
Posts: 6592
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: Emirates - Why No 747s?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 12:34 am

SQ operates both types as it needs the payload range for the 2 different mission profiles the 2 planes require... however, on <3500NM missions, SQ tend to employ both anyways...

EK doesn't... a 744 would probably fall somewhere short of it's longest routes, yet too heavy for its normal routes under 7hrs.

Interestingly...
777-300:
MTOW 299370kgs (heaviest RR version)
OEW 157800kgs
Max payload 66730kgs

747-400:
MTOW 396894kgs (heaviest RR version)
OEW 179572kgs
Max payload 67457kgs

At MZFW, and fill the rest with fuel...
773 goes about 3600NM
744 goes about 5600NM

For DXB-LHR would be about 3500NM...lets look at 3600NM
the 744 Gross weight required for the trip is about 342 tons.

744 requires 92.3 tons of fuel.
773 requires 74 tons of fuel.

18.3 tons of fuel, that's about 13.7k USD of fuel costs saved (using 60 cents a liter, the price of fuel in Indo)... But OK, the 773 carries 1 ton less cargo... and 50 seats less...

That's why for EK, I say do they really need the 744?

Try a 1500NM sector at MZFW?
773 fuel = 35.5 tons
744 fuel = 43.7 tons..
That's 8.2 tons fuel difference.

773 = 451 2 class or 368 3 class... so it would be 45 tons of pax weight 2 class, 35 tons of 3 class.
744 = 500 2 class or 416 3 class... 50 tons 2 class, 42 tons 3 class.

Cargo available at MZFW...
773 = 21.7 2 class, 31.7 3 class
744 = 17.5 2 class, 25.4 3 class

Now back to the 3600NM sector...
Can the 50 more seats of the 744 cover the cost of 18.3tons of extra fuel burn and 4.2 - 6.3 tons less cargo in the hold?
That depends on the pricing models of EK...

I'm not saying that what I've written is absolutely right, it's just to explain why I asked whether EK needs the 747 for its pax network. Some of their routes need more capacity... CGK-SIN-CMB-DXB is booked like mad...

But yes, they're addressing the capacity issue with the A380...

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
Udo
Posts: 4288
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 5:16 pm

RE: Emirates - Why No 747s?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 12:35 am

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 11):
you quoted the wrong person..

My apologies...happens sometimes. But we all know who is addressed!  Wink


Regards
Udo
Me & You & a Plane Named Blue...
 
User avatar
AirPacific747
Topic Author
Posts: 9701
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 9:52 am

RE: Emirates - Why No 747s?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 12:41 am

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 12):

Thankyou for your detailed analysis! Very interesting indeed!

edit:
no problem, Udo!  Smile just wanted to make sure.

[Edited 2005-09-13 17:42:37]
 
User avatar
AirPacific747
Topic Author
Posts: 9701
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 9:52 am

RE: Emirates - Why No 747s?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 12:49 am

I just checked Emirates' website and can see that they have scheduled flights to New York. According to the Great Circle Mapper, the distance between Dubai and New York is about 11,000 km. A distance the 747 is more than capable of flying.. is the demand for the route really not big enough to fill a 747? As I said, they could lease some 747s while they are waiting for the A380..
 
777boi
Posts: 122
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 8:22 pm

RE: Emirates - Why No 747s?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 2:17 am

EK's 777-300's pax loads are 380 (18F/42J/320Y) on 3 class and 427 (42J/385Y) on the 2 class aircraft.
 
karan69
Posts: 2728
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 7:57 pm

RE: Emirates - Why No 747s?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 3:52 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 9):
This website's database is almost always wrong. The 77W holds 280-300 passengers in a normal 3-class configuration (I mean a real normal one, not Boeing/Airbus ones) and about 340 in EK's higher density config. If EK were to pack a 744 with the same density they do a 77W, it would probably hold about 430

Mate, you might have confused the 77W data with the 772 configurations. Just as 777boi mantions EK pack upto 427 pax in higher density config.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26538
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Emirates - Why No 747s?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:12 am

Quoting 777boi (Reply 16):
EK's 777-300's pax loads are 380 (18F/42J/320Y) on 3 class and 427 (42J/385Y) on the 2 class aircraft.



Quoting Karan69 (Reply 18):
Just as 777boi mantions EK pack upto 427 pax in higher density config.

Yes, and in a high density 2 class configuration (I was looking at 3 class), they would put over 500 seats in the 744
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
alphaomega
Posts: 267
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2005 1:26 pm

RE: Emirates - Why No 747s?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:19 am

And then you have the 747s from Air Atlanta with 520
 
flydubai
Posts: 157
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2005 4:35 am

RE: Emirates - Why No 747s?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:35 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 9):
The 77W holds 280-300 passengers in a normal 3-class configuration (I mean a real normal one, not Boeing/Airbus ones) and about 340 in EK's higher density config

Emirates 773's hold 380 passengers in a typical 3 class config not 300. As Karan69 said you have most likely mistaken the information for a 772.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 19):
(I was looking at 3 class)

Yes but you were still incorrect.  Yeah sure

Wise up!

flydubai
 
Lospaziale
Posts: 28
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 5:37 pm

RE: Emirates - Why No 747s?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 6:18 am

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 12):
At MZFW, and fill the rest with fuel...
773 goes about 3600NM
744 goes about 5600NM

In kilometers that will be for the 744 10.000Km.

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 15):
According to the Great Circle Mapper, the distance between Dubai and New York is about 11,000 km. A distance the 747 is more than capable of flying.. is the demand for the route really not big enough to fill a 747?

I think 11000 Km are too much for the 744: imagine if you find a very strong front wind, so you have to consider that you need much fuel... and your maximum range decrease.
That's why there are 2 possibilities to fly the 744 from DUB to NYC: don't fill it up at MTOW, or have a fuel stop. Both of them are unprofitable for EK.
That's why it's now used on the route the A340-500 that have a better range (with full load around 7000 NM = 13600 Km)
lo spaziale
 
LRGT
Posts: 681
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2004 12:29 pm

RE: Emirates - Why No 747s?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 6:28 am

because they are smart  Wink
Don't bring up the NW DC9's unless you have to!
 
A360
Posts: 426
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 11:41 pm

RE: Emirates - Why No 747s?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 7:53 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 19):
Yes, and in a high density 2 class configuration (I was looking at 3 class), they would put over 500 seats in the 744

Yes, probably.
But that's not forget that EK uses 10 abreast on the 777's in eco, which means a considerable increase in seats.
And I guess they wouldn't put 11 abreast on the 747's, so maybe the 777's are more dense in eco, than the 747's would be.

On another topic: will EK use 11 abreast in eco on their high density A380's?
I guess that a 11 abreast A380 lower deck is more spacious (shoulder wise) than a 10 abreast 777. Can anyone confirm this?
 
aaflt1871
Posts: 2165
Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2004 7:29 pm

RE: Emirates - Why No 747s?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 9:15 am

Quoting Flydubai (Reply 21):
Emirates 773's hold 380 passengers in a typical 3 class config not 300. As Karan69 said you have most likely mistaken the information for a 772.



Quoting Flydubai (Reply 21):
Yes but you were still incorrect.



Quoting Karan69 (Reply 18):
Mate, you might have confused the 77W data with the 772 configurations. Just as 777boi mantions EK pack upto 427 pax in higher density config.

Too bad ConcordeBoy is out of commission right now, I am sure he would have jumped on this discussion.
Where did everybody go?
 
Lufthansa
Posts: 2621
Joined: Thu May 20, 1999 6:04 am

RE: Emirates - Why No 747s?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 10:32 am

what happened to concorde boy anyway?

As for 11 000km being too much for the 744.... everyday QF and UA - SYD - LAX exceed this by a good 1500kms, as do Cathay's HKG-USA flights etc... so it is easily done, even with some headwind problems... of course it may lead to weight restrictions.
 
aaflt1871
Posts: 2165
Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2004 7:29 pm

RE: Emirates - Why No 747s?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 11:32 am

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 25):
what happened to concorde boy anyway?

Freddy being himself got banned once again. Too bad, he really seems to know everything about the 777.
Where did everybody go?
 
9v-svc
Posts: 1703
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2001 5:19 pm

RE: Emirates - Why No 747s?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 1:52 pm

SQ will be replacing the 747-400s with the 777-300ER. Not to forget the 777-300 (RR trent powered) doesn't fly as far like the 747-400 does. SQ operatoes both 777-300 and 747-400 to complement each other as you can see how big the network of SQ. Once you see the 777-300ER coming in , more 747-400s will be retired.
Airliners is the wings of my life.
 
User avatar
AirPacific747
Topic Author
Posts: 9701
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 9:52 am

RE: Emirates - Why No 747s?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 2:26 pm

Quoting AAFLT1871 (Reply 26):
Freddy being himself got banned once again. Too bad, he really seems to know everything about the 777.

Banned for how long? I havent seen him on a.net for months
 
RedChili
Posts: 1440
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 9:23 am

RE: Emirates - Why No 747s?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 3:25 pm

It's really quite obvious. EK has bought most of their planes during the last five years, and they obviously don't want to buy an old airplane that nobody else is buying, except for a few cargo carriers and some airlines that want to increase their already existing 747 fleets.

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 5):
ok, so why do singapore airlines operate both types??
just because of the prestige?

Very simple: Because SQ bought their 744s more than a decade before the 773ER became available. SQ needed the 744 back in 1989 to make flights to Europe and other places that are far away. They could not wait until the 773ER became available in 2003(?). But now in 2005, SQ does not have any 744s on order, but the 773ER.
Top 10 airplanes: B737, T154, B747, IL96, T134, IL62, A320, MD80, B757, DC10
 
IDAWA
Posts: 281
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 9:07 pm

RE: Emirates - Why No 747s?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 8:40 pm

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 28):
Quoting AAFLT1871 (Reply 26):
Freddy being himself got banned once again. Too bad, he really seems to know everything about the 777.

Banned for how long? I havent seen him on a.net for months

If I can ask...what did he do to get banned?

I-DAWA
Flown on: 319, 320, 321, 340, 727, 737, 747, 757, 767, 777, DC9, D10, M11, M80, 146, EM2, BEH, CRJ, DH8, L4T.
 
User avatar
AirPacific747
Topic Author
Posts: 9701
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 9:52 am

RE: Emirates - Why No 747s?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 9:35 pm

Quoting IDAWA (Reply 30):
If I can ask...what did he do to get banned?

I actually don't know, but I have noticed several times that some of his comments have strong opinions in them.. might have offended someone..

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos