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LUVRSW
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Steenland: "amfa Will Not Be Part Of Bankruptcy"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 10:34 am

http://wcco.com/video/[email protected]

Phone interview: AMFA is done, according to Dougie, and will not be part of bankruptcy proceedings.

[Edited 2005-09-15 03:35:00]

[Edited 2005-09-15 03:37:21]

[Edited 2005-09-15 03:41:18]
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: Steenland: "amfa Will Not Be Part Of Bankruptcy"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 10:35 am

So AMFA will finally come to terms with reality.

[Edited 2005-09-15 03:36:13]
 
grrtvc
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RE: Steenland: "amfa Will Not Be Part Of Bankruptcy"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 10:44 am

I hope this doesn't come as a surprise to anyone. What NW did today (and DL) only reaffirms that they can not compete in the industry as we know it. This certainly closes the door on AMFA if they didn't realize it before.

Advice for the FA's, a whole new playing field has been created and the rules have changed.

GRRTVC
 
DC10GUY
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RE: Steenland: "amfa Will Not Be Part Of Bankruptcy"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 10:55 am

WOW what a load of crap AMFA was/is selling. AMFA not only ruined the jobs of the NWA mechanics, It set back organized labor to pre 1930's era status. A trade union for mechanics only will never fly.
Next time try the old "dirty Sanchez" She'll love it !!!
 
SonofHerman
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RE: Steenland: "amfa Will Not Be Part Of Bankruptcy"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:01 am

Sounds like AMFA is out on its cold smelly.....

Hopefully NWA & Delta will come out Chapter 11 in better shape.
Maybe together ??
 
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mariner
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RE: Steenland: "amfa Will Not Be Part Of Bankruptcy"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:25 am

I am puzzled that it seems Mr. Steenland will be part of the bankruptcy.

He has totally failed - the airline is losing billions, shareholder value has been destroyed and Northwest is no longer a going concern, all on his watch.

The same is true with Mr. Grinstein at Delta.

Why are these gentlemen staying on? Is there no accountability anymore?

cheers

mariner
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RE: Steenland: "amfa Will Not Be Part Of Bankruptcy"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:31 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 5):
I am puzzled that it seems Mr. Steenland will be part of the bankruptcy.

He has totally failed - the airline is losing billions, shareholder value has been destroyed and Northwest is no longer a going concern, all on his watch.

I can't speak for Grinstein, but when Anderson left, Steeland's agenda was in all likelihood to go into Ch.11 The board issued him a message - get the cost cuts or file Ch.11 There was no alternative. This plan has been going on for sometime now. Steeland didn't fail, he just did was he was told to do by the board.
 
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RE: Steenland: "amfa Will Not Be Part Of Bankruptcy"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:38 am

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 6):
Steeland didn't fail, he just did was he was told to do by the board.

In which case, the shareholders and creditors should sue him - and the board. They have clearly failed in their fiduciary responsibility.

Accountability?

cheers

mariner
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Boeing7E7
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RE: Steenland: "amfa Will Not Be Part Of Bankruptcy"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:43 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 5):
The same is true with Mr. Grinstein at Delta.

Really? I recall him inheriting a mess. Nice sweeping generalization, but expected.

Since you're such a genious in aviation economics, I'm sure they'll be offering you a job....
 
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coronado
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RE: Steenland: "amfa Will Not Be Part Of Bankruptcy"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:44 am

Anderson talked about the 900mm in wage reductions for almost 2 years and only the pilots stepped up. He was a nice guy but when he realized the other unions were not being very realistic nor very smart he bailed. I think Anderson thought that AMFA would learn from their deal at UAL and agree to and offer to accept a similar package at NWA. Anderson tried to maintain a dialogue which was in retrospect pretty good, but some of the union leadership has been wearing the proverbial horse blinders and has been choosing to think that NWA was different than the deals they were agreeing to at AA, UAL, US, etc.

I blame NWA management for pursuing a high cash balance strategy as it made everybody think things were fat and happy. Nobody bothered to point out that the high cash balance was all borrowed. I can take my Visa Card to the bank and borrow 20,000 against it and it may make me feel rich for the next month or 2 and I can fool myself and others by flashing plenty of cash. NWA did the same 'damn' thing. It made a bunch of stupid people think that NWA was immune to what was going on in the rest of the industry.
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RE: Steenland: "amfa Will Not Be Part Of Bankruptcy"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:46 am

I don't believe an accurate assesment can be made that they have failed.

Their job is to maximize shareholder value. That doesn't mean that in situations like these, shareholders won't LOSE value -- it's a matter of how much.

Steve
 
Lemurs
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RE: Steenland: "amfa Will Not Be Part Of Bankruptcy"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:47 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 7):
In which case, the shareholders and creditors should sue him - and the board. They have clearly failed in their fiduciary responsibility.

Accountability?

Redutcio ad Absurdum. I don't claim any of these people did fantastic jobs, but the idea that so many entities in the industry are failing ONLY because of the actions of a handful of people ignores the environment the events are happening in.

This is a transition period for labor in a post-industrial world. The airline industry is the most visible member of the club to lose it's protection, and suffer as a whole because management and labor can't meet in the middle.

I think it sucks, I don't think management is right in all cases, but I think it's ridiculous to say it's all the executive's poor management, and with someone else at the helm these other problems would be easily solved or wouldn't have happened.
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those that don't.
 
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mariner
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RE: Steenland: "amfa Will Not Be Part Of Bankruptcy"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:49 am

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 8):
Since you're such a genious in aviation economics, I'm sure they'll be offering you a job....

Oh, no, they will not. Nor would I want it, because I couldn't do it.

I am an investor in airlines - a shareholder. Thankfully, I am not invested in NWAC.

But I do expect people to be accountable for their actions.

Don't you?

cheers

mariner
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RE: Steenland: "amfa Will Not Be Part Of Bankruptcy"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:51 am

Quoting Sllevin (Reply 10):
Their job is to maximize shareholder value. That doesn't mean that in situations like these, shareholders won't LOSE value

The shareholders in United have lost all value, the shares are useless. The shareholders in US Airways have lost all value - twice.

How is this different?

cheers

mariner
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N501US
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RE: Steenland: "amfa Will Not Be Part Of Bankruptcy"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:52 am

Quoting Lemurs (Reply 11):
Redutcio ad Absurdum. I don't claim any of these people did fantastic jobs, but the idea that so many entities in the industry are failing ONLY because of the actions of a handful of people ignores the environment the events are happening in.

Well said; and applies to a vast majority of the posts on this entire board. Just put you on my RR list.
Fools and thieves are well disguised in the temple and the marketplace.....
 
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RE: Steenland: "amfa Will Not Be Part Of Bankruptcy"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:53 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 12):
Oh, no, they will not. Nor would I want it, because I couldn't do it.

Then pipe it because your sweeping generalizations on the issue hold as much water as a busted dam.
 
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mariner
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RE: Steenland: "amfa Will Not Be Part Of Bankruptcy"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:54 am

Quoting Lemurs (Reply 11):
I think it sucks, I don't think management is right in all cases, but I think it's ridiculous to say it's all the executive's poor management, and with someone else at the helm these other problems would be easily solved or wouldn't have happened.

Last year, American Airlines was on the edge of bankruptcy. They sacked the CEO instead.

Now they are profitable again.

NWA stuck with Mr. Steenland. Now they are in Chapter 11.

Your point is - ?

cheers

mariner
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comorin
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RE: Steenland: "amfa Will Not Be Part Of Bankruptcy"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:54 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 5):
Why are these gentlemen staying on? Is there no accountability anymore

I agree with you completely, so I tried to see the other point of view:

1. The 'not our fault' view: DL's Management did a 'heroic' job against all odds. With another CEO, DL could have gone under sooner. It's not their fault that fuel prices rose. Pre-2000, everyone was amazed at the great job they were doing at Delta.

2. The 'CEOs rule' argument: Once you are a CEO, you become like a Baron of yore - part of the new feudalism that's creeping into our economy. For some unknown reason, CEOs have all these magical skills to lead the minions out of their sorry state. If they fail, there's always the next time. CEOs make money regardless of performance, and are removed only if the Feds go after them.

As for shareholders, the board had every opportunity to fire the CEO, but they didn't, so why blame the CEO?


So accountability becomes another quaint concept, along with Hara-Kiri and other noble gestures...
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: Steenland: "amfa Will Not Be Part Of Bankruptcy"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:55 am

Lemurs,
Exactly!

I'm not a Steeland fan, but I'm smart enough to realize there is a lot more than just the CEO running a company. Its not a one-person show. There was a lot of pressure from the board to enter Ch. 11. They knew it was going to happen and they are not surprised by these things. This is all a calcuated move.

Look at most legacy companies in this country, they are all having problems. Auto manufacturers, steel companies, department stores, large grocery chains, etc. are ALL hurting right now. As was pointed out, there has been a big shift in the corporate environment lately, and legacy companies have a lot of deep issues and "baggage" that new start-ups and new industries do not have.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: Steenland: "amfa Will Not Be Part Of Bankruptcy"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 12:01 pm

Carty was sacked at AA, because he fell on his own sword. He got caught with his pants down with golden parachutes for the execs at the time when employees were voting whether to take paycuts in order to avoid Ch. 11. Carty had to leave, just so the employees would take the concessions, thus avoiding Ch. 11 Carty was not fired because of the company getting into the position that it did.

Again, you don't understand. Companies have to plan for the worst. The writing has been on the wall for a long time for Ch. 11 Steeland was choosen to be the point-man, and the one to take a hard-line stance with NW's unions.

Mariner, your principles are fine, but that just isn't how things work (whether that be good or bad) There are too many external factors that affect an airline that are beyond the control of the executives.
 
Squid
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RE: Steenland: "amfa Will Not Be Part Of Bankruptcy"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 12:06 pm

Quoting GRRTVC (Reply 2):
Advice for the FA's, a whole new playing field has been created and the rules have changed.

I think NWA should say to PFAA, take an identical contract as Mesa -1%, or we will break you next. Their only flight attendants, easily replaced. NWA was only asking for an annual reduction of 146 million from PFAA, it needs to be closer to 400 million.
 
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RE: Steenland: "amfa Will Not Be Part Of Bankruptcy"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 12:07 pm

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 19):
Carty was sacked at AA, because he fell on his own sword. He got caught with his pants down with golden parachutes for the execs at the time when employees were voting whether to take paycuts in order to avoid Ch. 11.

Mr. Carty was held accountable. That is all I ask.

Why should the CEO who led the company into bankruptcy be assumed to be the right person for the job?

Same applies to Mr. Grinstein at Delta.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 19):
There are too many external factors that affect an airline that are beyond the control of the executives.

Of course, there are external factors. It is how a CEO deals with them - how the CEO leads - that is critical.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 19):
Mariner, your principles are fine, but that just isn't how things work

So you're saying it is all okay no matter what, and that one should throw one's principles out the window?

Sorry, I can't subscribe to that. I don't invest in companies that do not have a moral compass.

cheers

mariner
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LUVRSW
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RE: Steenland: "amfa Will Not Be Part Of Bankruptcy"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 12:08 pm

Hey PSU.DTW.SCE, how do you think XJ will fare in bankruptcy?
 
Lemurs
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RE: Steenland: "amfa Will Not Be Part Of Bankruptcy"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 12:11 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 16):
Last year, American Airlines was on the edge of bankruptcy. They sacked the CEO instead.

Now they are profitable again.

NWA stuck with Mr. Steenland. Now they are in Chapter 11.

Your point is - ?

Again, you're reducing too far. NW and AA are not 1:1 comparisons. You do not run every company in the same fashion, taking no account of reality on the ground. AA's and NW's debts, assets, and costs are not even close to being the same, so how can you honestly say they can be fixed in the same fashion? These are very complex, dynamic, non-deterministic systems, where as an executive you only have control over so many variables. It's easy to make it seem simple from behind your desk. Managing such systems is another task entirely.

Of course, this is what they are PAID to do, so you are right there needs to be accountability. I just don't think you can call Steenland a failure based on everything I know about the situation. NW's board and shareholders seem to agree. It's their job to evaluate based on the evidence available, and they have come to the same conclusions.
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those that don't.
 
UAcosCS
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RE: Steenland: "amfa Will Not Be Part Of Bankruptcy"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 12:11 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 5):
I am puzzled that it seems Mr. Steenland will be part of the bankruptcy.

He has totally failed - the airline is losing billions, shareholder value has been destroyed and Northwest is no longer a going concern, all on his watch.

The same is true with Mr. Grinstein at Delta.

Why are these gentlemen staying on? Is there no accountability anymore?

No, just and excuse for high fuel costs. Pass the buck, It's the American way.
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Kohflot
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RE: Steenland: "amfa Will Not Be Part Of Bankruptcy"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 12:11 pm

While I obviously can't speak for Mariner....

It simply highlights the notion that an airline can use Chapter 11 as a crutch when the person that led it into bankruptcy can talk as if he'll continue to rule the roost at the bankrupt company.. also, a good bit of bravado as well. It's like nothing is changing except for this new opportunity to shed costs and compete (courtesy of the US government and some folks with a lot more money than I have).

He may not be solely responsible for what's happened.. but the only way these airlines are going to become viable entities again is by shaking the ant farm and radically changing their businesses and their responses to the competitive environment.. and that starts at the top.
Ask why..
 
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mariner
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RE: Steenland: "amfa Will Not Be Part Of Bankruptcy"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 12:15 pm

Quoting Lemurs (Reply 23):
You do not run every company in the same fashion, taking no account of reality on the ground.

I don't assume that or expect it.

Quoting Lemurs (Reply 23):
how can you honestly say they can be fixed in the same fashion?

I don't.

Quoting Lemurs (Reply 23):
Managing such systems is another task entirely.

Which CEO's are paid to do.

Quoting Lemurs (Reply 23):
you are right there needs to be accountability.

That is all I am asking for. In this case, there isn't.

cheers

mariner
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Lemurs
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RE: Steenland: "amfa Will Not Be Part Of Bankruptcy"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 12:20 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 26):

Aww man Mariner, I usually really enjoy your posts and arguments, but you left the meat of my argument off your reply, and simply restated your points without anything new. I could restate myself over and over again too, I just don't think it advances the argument very well.
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those that don't.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: Steenland: "amfa Will Not Be Part Of Bankruptcy"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 12:26 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 21):
Mr. Carty was held accountable. That is all I ask.

Why should the CEO who led the company into bankruptcy be assumed to be the right person for the job?

Carty was held accountable for his own stupid actions, and rightfully so.

Steeland, on the other hand, did not personally lead the company to bankruptcy. They were in relatively bad shape when he took over. If he had suceeded in getting all the necessary cuts, he'd be writng books and virtually worshipped. Taking a step back, I don't think he had any chance of sucessfully getting the needed cost savings and concessions from all the unions in a short enough time frame. You can't just go CEO-less into Ch. 11. Steeland isn't there for the long-term, but it would be really bad to sack him just now. Again, this whole Ch. 11 was a plan that was concieved a while back. Just now was the right timing for it to happen. I would guess that Steeland knew he would be taking NW into Ch. 11, it was not a surprise to the people who call the shots at NW.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 21):
orry, I can't subscribe to that. I don't invest in companies that do not have a moral compass.

I don't agree with a lot of these things that have occured, but I'm not in a position to make these decisions. Honestly I don't think I want to be either. There is the morally right thing to do, and then there are the other pressures. I don't want to have to choose. Unfortunetely, most businesses are not moral. I don't like that either.
 
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RE: Steenland: "amfa Will Not Be Part Of Bankruptcy"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 12:33 pm

Quoting LUVRSW (Reply 22):
Hey PSU.DTW.SCE, how do you think XJ will fare in bankruptcy?

Its far to early to tell how the Ch. 11 filing will affect Mesaba or Pinnacle. Things could easily go both ways. Making comparisions to the US or United bankruptcies doesn't support anything, because NW & their Airlinks are structured completely different. Both XJ & 9E are their own company, but they are virtually controlled by NW. NW could gut their contracts, but what does that benefit? Their relationship is so close it would do no good. NW also holds the leases on the Avro's, the CRJ's, and most the Saabs. NW isn't going to go and cut the leases on all of these aircraft

Its well known that NW wants more 70-90 seaters to be operated at low wages. Its likely that scope will be busted because of this. Does that mean these aircraft go to the Airlinks? or NW mainline with some sort of B-scale?? Who knows. XJ already has 2 CRJ's on property, so the CRJ program will go on as planned.

Does it mean more or less flying? Who knows
Does it mean pressure to cut costs? Likely
Does it mean filing for their own Ch. 11?? Not likely
 
gigneil
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RE: Steenland: "amfa Will Not Be Part Of Bankruptcy"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 12:39 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 5):
The same is true with Mr. Grinstein at Delta.

I couldn't disagree more. GG inherited an unfixable problem and has done better with it than I think anyone else could have. He's made more progress than anyone else could have.

N
 
LUVRSW
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RE: Steenland: "amfa Will Not Be Part Of Bankruptcy"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 12:40 pm

Could NW cancel the remainder of the CRJ's on order for XJ?
 
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RE: Steenland: "amfa Will Not Be Part Of Bankruptcy"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 12:46 pm

Quoting LUVRSW (Reply 31):
Could NW cancel the remainder of the CRJ's on order for XJ?

Perhaps, but not likely. The others have taken on new deliveries while in Ch. 11. A number of these CRJ's are already in various stages of production since they are coming at 2 per month.
Considering CRJ's will be part of their new business plan, instead of DC-9's, I doubt they will cancel them. Don't look for anymore narrowbody mainline aircraft for a while though.....
 
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mariner
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RE: Steenland: "amfa Will Not Be Part Of Bankruptcy"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 12:47 pm

Quoting Lemurs (Reply 27):
I usually really enjoy your posts and arguments, but you left the meat of my argument off your reply, and simply restated your points without anything new.

I'm sorry to disappoint, I promise, but I'm really not sure - in this case - what else to say.

What is astonishing to me is this thread - which is quite happy to heap blame on AMFA and shelter Steenland from the storm.

I mean, I could go on at some length about the parallels with United - Goodwin warned that UA was about to sink, and they sacked him for it.

What Goodwin left out was that he was part of the reason that UA was going to sink.

But then the board did something bizarre. Instead oif saying, okay, Goodwin spoke true so let's fix it, they put their heads in the sand and appointed one of their own - Creighton.

The joke is that Creighton was 69 and had to retire (articles of incorporation) when he was 70.

At best, he could only be an interim, and I think that was an abdication of fiducairy responsibility on the part of the board.

Creighton said "I am not here to preside over a bankruptcy" - and he didn't. He left when he was 70 as everyone knew he had to.

It was only then that the BOD found some balls and got Tilton, who knew, from Day 1, that he would almost certainly have to take the company Chapter 11.

I don't have a problem with what Tilton did. I have a real problem with what the BOD did.

I don't have a problem with Chapter 11 (well, I do, that isn't the debate here). I have a problem with the processes that NWA went through to get there.

I don't think Steenland is a good CEO, but that isn't my call. Even if he did what the BOD told him he had to do, there is still a price to pay for doing it.

There is a fiduciary responsibility to the shareholders and the creditors which should, in an ordered world, take precedence over the whims of some grumpy, rich, old, white farts in Minneapolis.

Because if there is no fiduciary responsibility, then we are all screwed.

cheers

mariner
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RE: Steenland: "amfa Will Not Be Part Of Bankruptcy"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 12:57 pm

Quoting Coronado (Reply 9):
I blame NWA management for pursuing a high cash balance strategy as it made everybody think things were fat and happy. Nobody bothered to point out that the high cash balance was all borrowed. I can take my Visa Card to the bank and borrow 20,000 against it and it may make me feel rich for the next month or 2 and I can fool myself and others by flashing plenty of cash. NWA did the same 'damn' thing. It made a bunch of stupid people think that NWA was immune to what was going on in the rest of the industry.

I think NW thought others would actually liquidate before their cash ran low. I thought this was a very smart strategy at first, but in hindsight it didn't work that way. And, as you point out, made it nearly impossible to gain wage cuts.
 
legendDC9
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RE: Steenland: "amfa Will Not Be Part Of Bankruptcy"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 1:00 pm

You are almost better off being in BK than outside of it, If this was a true market environment, UA, US, NW, DL would have long since been dead. However, as we can all see, UA has no problem operating like this year after year, same with US. At the same time, they can slash pensions, outsource work and cut service when they feel like it. They will stay in business because all of a sudden they don't have to pay all their bills and investors, looking to protect their initial investments, pour more money down the drain. You almost get rewarded for being in bankruptcy these days and that should not be allowed.
 
DCrawley
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RE: Steenland: "amfa Will Not Be Part Of Bankruptcy"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 1:32 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 5):
He has totally failed - the airline is losing billions, shareholder value has been destroyed and Northwest is no longer a going concern, all on his watch.

The same is true with Mr. Grinstein at Delta.

Care to elaborate with the Mr. Geinstein part of your argument? I believe in
Gerry and would be interested to see why you state this.

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 30):
I couldn't disagree more. GG inherited an unfixable problem and has done better with it than I think anyone else could have. He's made more progress than anyone else could have.

100% agreed.

-d
"Weather at our destination is 50 degrees with some broken clouds, but they'll try to have them fixed before we arrive."
 
supa7E7
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RE: Steenland: "amfa Will Not Be Part Of Bankruptcy"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 1:33 pm

Mariner, the thing you are ignoring is that bankruptcy can be great for airlines. Look at US Airways 1 year ago. Look at them now. Was bankruptcy really so bad?

Yes it is dangerous, and yes it strips the stockholders of their equity. At this moment, however, Steenland's loyalty lies with the creditors, not stockholders. So at this moment Steenland could give two sh*ts about what the stockholders think. They do not matter anymore. The creditors will control this process and they will make damn sure NW becomes a solid airline again.

Should the stockholders have fired Steenland earlier? Well, they evidently thought he was the best man for the post. He did try hard to bargain, but things turned ugly. The workers would not take cuts, and the US Feds were too busy lately to talk about pension relief. Steenland's goal slipped out of reach, but he did try.

The AMFA strike was a paragon of management expertise IMO. It will help NWA going forward and Steenland deserves a bit of credit there.
"Who's to say spaceships aren't fine art?" - Phil Lesh
 
AAR90
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RE: Steenland: "amfa Will Not Be Part Of Bankruptcy"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 1:34 pm

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 19):
Carty was sacked at AA, because he fell on his own sword. He got caught with his pants down with golden parachutes for the execs at the time when employees were voting whether to take paycuts in order to avoid Ch. 11. Carty had to leave, just so the employees would take the concessions, thus avoiding Ch. 11 Carty was not fired because of the company getting into the position that it did.

The movement within AA's BOD to oust Carty was well underway and growing by the time the executive bonuses & protected retirement plans became public knowledge. Continuing the TWA asset purchase [and its multi-billion dollar debt] when the US/UA merger threat had disappeared [$40 million breakup fee is relative "peanuts" to multi-billion dollar companies] and waiting 18+ months after you've publicly notified your unions you need $2 billion/year labor concessions to begin contract negotiations are just two of the more significant issues some AA BOD members had with Carty's "leadership." The "golden parachutes" was just the last straw that solidified a majority of AA's BOD against Carty remaining at AA.... hence his "voluntary" resignation.
*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
 
Lemurs
Posts: 1320
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 5:13 am

RE: Steenland: "amfa Will Not Be Part Of Bankruptcy"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 1:46 pm

Quoting LegendDC9 (Reply 35):
You are almost better off being in BK than outside of it, If this was a true market environment

Who is the "You" here? The employees? The economy? The executives? BK is never a good option, it's just a BETTER option than folding outright, which is what would happen without it.

People speak of companies like they're individual entities, instead of part of a larger economic picture. It is NOT in the best interest to let a pure free market decide everything, with historical lessons abundant.
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those that don't.
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 19473
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Steenland: "amfa Will Not Be Part Of Bankruptcy"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 2:16 pm

Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 37):
Mariner, the thing you are ignoring is that bankruptcy can be great for airlines. Look at US Airways 1 year ago. Look at them now. Was bankruptcy really so bad?

I'm not ignoring that at all. But I stated my position - as an investor in airlines, a shareholder, a stockholder.

And, while bk may be great for the airlines, its friggin' lousy for shareholders. Happily, I haver choosen my stocks rather well - at least at the moment - but that is not true for thousands upon thousands of others.

Especially those who invested because they loved their company and were told it was a good thing - care to ask any United staff member how they feel about their ESOP shares?

Quoting DCrawley (Reply 36):
Care to elaborate with the Mr. Geinstein part of your argument? I believe in
Gerry and would be interested to see why you state this.

If you believe in Mr. Grinstein, then you won't like what I have to say, so I don't see the point.

Besides, it isn't about that. It is about accountability. Mr. Grinstein has battled valiantly for Delta not to go into bk, he made it the centerpiece of his strategy.

He failed.

It is also possible that by delaying the bankruptcy, he may have put Delta in a cworse position than it might have been to go into bk, certainly as far as the DIP financing is concerned.

The bk has eradicated all shareholder value and virtually all creditor value.

Mr. Grinstein may be a terrific guy, he may be a great airline man, but on a simple business level, what he has done sucks. Or rather, what has happened at Delta on his watch sucks.

And I don't see why this failure should be rewarded with tenure.

If you think differently, that is great. But I believe in accountability.

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
flyinryan99
Posts: 1503
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2001 6:54 am

RE: Steenland: "amfa Will Not Be Part Of Bankruptcy"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 2:34 pm

Quoting Lemurs (Reply 11):
I don't claim any of these people did fantastic jobs, but the idea that so many entities in the industry are failing ONLY because of the actions of a handful of people ignores the environment the events are happening in.

While I agree that many airlines are also failing, there are some that are prospering. I have to agree with Mariner on this one. Even in a tough industry, shouldn't the person who's leading the company be adapt and lead them through in an upward direction or at least be changing directioons? I didn't see NW or DL doing that...I saw it AA and CO. I know AA and CO will probably lose money the next few quarters but at least it won't be as bad as before. Accountability...if the captain isn't going to steer the ship clear of the bad stuff, get someone in there who will. Like I said, I understand the losses in the airline industry, but these guys haven't been able to at least level it off and start turning it around (that's all I would ask). It would be a different story if they were.
 
sllevin
Posts: 3314
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 1:57 pm

RE: Steenland: "amfa Will Not Be Part Of Bankruptc

Thu Sep 15, 2005 3:28 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 13):
The shareholders in United have lost all value, the shares are useless. The shareholders in US Airways have lost all value - twice.

How is this different?

Because it's not yet clear that current shareholders of NWAC will lose everything. In fact, the lack of DIP financing implies strongly that the current plan is not to have that happen, but rather, go with some possible dilution, as well as potentially invalidating some forward agreements/contracts.

As far as DL, well, they've taken on a significant amount of DIP financing, and have more debt...while I am sure that Grinstein will do everything to maintain some of the current shareholder value, I would not be as optimistic.

Regardless, both airlines must work aggressively to curtail costs and stop losing money quickly if they are to avoid United-ness.

Steve
 
uadc8contrail
Posts: 1661
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 1:23 am

RE: Steenland: "amfa Will Not Be Part Of Bankruptcy"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 4:47 pm

where is the almighty burnsie28 and nwafa to get us thru this hour of crisis?????where art thou?????
Bus Driver
 
LUVRSW
Topic Author
Posts: 481
Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2005 11:15 pm

RE: Steenland: "amfa Will Not Be Part Of Bankruptcy"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 7:20 pm

I was wondering that too, and the great Favre...Why have thou forsaken thee?
 
COSPN
Posts: 1825
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 6:33 am

RE: Steenland: "amfa Will Not Be Part Of Bankruptcy"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 7:31 pm

Can Someone explain the "new" Bankruptcy laws going into effect in october...

It will be much harsher right ???
 
FlyBoeing
Posts: 835
Joined: Fri May 05, 2000 2:08 am

RE: Steenland: "amfa Will Not Be Part Of Bankruptcy"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 9:00 pm

Is it too late to admit some "schadenfreunde" at the demise of Northwest? For 15 years our family has been tolerating their NYC-MNL routes - cramped 747s with poor service and worse entertainment. We've endured their abysmal customer service that seemed to be delivered through gritted teeth.

We knew those employees wanted to do better but management was squeezing every dime out of their operation, cutting it to the bone. That's why we saw them retaining those gas-guzzling 744s and DC-10s long after most US carriers had retained them. That's why Northwest was always the low-price leader in flights to Asia. They were low-price because nobody tolerated their crap except tourists and Filipinos returning home.

The only thing I'm sad about are the pensions for the people who stayed with the airline for so long. It was obvious that Northwest's employees were doing the best they could with the (slim) resources they had.
 
N501US
Posts: 216
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 1:51 am

RE: Steenland: "amfa Will Not Be Part Of Bankruptcy"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 9:59 pm

Quoting FlyBoeing (Reply 46):
NYC-MNL routes - cramped 747s with poor service and worse entertainment.

Nice rant but why didn't you use another airline?

Quoting FlyBoeing (Reply 46):
That's why we saw them retaining those gas-guzzling 744s

I'm pretty sure the 744 is one of the most fuel efficient airplanes out there. Especially for the routes NW flies them on.

[

Quoting COSPN (Reply 45):
Can Someone explain the "new" Bankruptcy laws going into effect in october...

It will be much harsher right ???

Has anyone else read that the new laws may be delayed due to the fallout from Katrina?
Fools and thieves are well disguised in the temple and the marketplace.....
 
bobnwa
Posts: 4514
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2000 12:10 am

RE: Steenland: "amfa Will Not Be Part Of Bankruptcy"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 10:06 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 7):
In which case, the shareholders and creditors should sue him - and the board. They have clearly failed in their fiduciary responsibility.

The board represents the shareholders or in another way of putting it, the board is the shareholders.
 
hiflyer
Posts: 1274
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:38 am

RE: Steenland: "amfa Will Not Be Part Of Bankruptcy"

Thu Sep 15, 2005 10:27 pm

The overhaul in the past two years of the senior staff at NWAC has brought in several persons ex CAL and IMHO only for one reason...to clear NWAC of union issues and if necessary file chapt 11. Old staff senior staff bailed as the tone was being set at the corp level...those that remained sold their stock. This was a deliberate corp move by the BOD and has been a plan for at least a year. Steenland is the NWAC wartime leader.

With that amount of CAL in their senior ranks no one found it strange that on the same day NWAC announced filing CAL announced it was raising a billion dollars? Think that was just a fluke of timing?

Mariner...you were off by the way on the blame on goodwin at ual...he inherited a mess from the pilot's favorite son greenwald and was an interim also....greenwald was ual's disaster but the economy was so good at the time the problems were covered up. Soon as projections and upcoming union deals looked to be sour greenwald bailed.

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