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Shenzhen
Topic Author
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A&C - A380 Delays Cost A340-5/-6 Orders?

Fri Sep 16, 2005 7:19 pm

From another board..... Anyone see this in A & C?


Des pénalités sous forme d'annulations ?
Plusieurs compagnies clientes de l'A380 ont d'ores et déjà annoncé qu'elles
demanderont à Airbus des pénalités pour les retards dans les livraisons du très
gros-porteur européen. Et certaines d'entre elles n'excluraient pas de
transformer ces pénalités en annulations de commandes qu'elles ont sur d'autres
modèles de la famille Airbus, et notamment des A340-500/600.


Babelfish translation .....

Penalties in the form of cancellations?

Several customer companies of A380 announced right now that they will very ask
Airbus penalties for the delays in the deliveries of the European large-carrier.
And some of them let us not exclude to transform these penalties into
cancellations of orders which they have on other models of the Airbus family,
and in particular of A340-500/600.
 
Udo
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RE: A&C - A380 Delays Cost A340-5/-6 Orders?

Fri Sep 16, 2005 7:31 pm

Quoting Shenzhen (Thread starter):
And some of them let us not exclude to transform these penalties into
cancellations of orders which they have on other models of the Airbus family,
and in particular of A340-500/600.

Emirates and the A340-600 comes to mind. Why not take the chance and get rid of some orders for mostly obsolete aircraft? They have the B77W, so no need to build up a large A346 fleet.


Regards
Udo
 
Shenzhen
Topic Author
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RE: A&C - A380 Delays Cost A340-5/-6 Orders?

Fri Sep 16, 2005 7:36 pm

What about Ethiad? Weren't they talking about a 777-300ER order?
 
Udo
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RE: A&C - A380 Delays Cost A340-5/-6 Orders?

Fri Sep 16, 2005 7:44 pm

Quoting Shenzhen (Reply 2):
What about Ethiad? Weren't they talking about a 777-300ER order?

Not only talking, they have firm orders for the B77W. But I doubt they would get so much compensation for the A380 delay. Deliveries are scheduled for 2007, 2008 and 2009 (2).


Regards
Udo
 
Udo
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RE: A&C - A380 Delays Cost A340-5/-6 Orders?

Fri Sep 16, 2005 8:04 pm

Quoting Soylentgreen (Reply 4):
Dumbest thing I've heard all day. It's spelled out contractually. There is a penalty and protocol is to usually accept it.

Ok, since some people seem to have troubles in understanding the context and using some common sense, here comes my message again:

1. EY don't have the same volume of orders such as EK or QF
2. Only one delivery scheduled for 2007. Others for 2008 and 2009 = probably no delays for these

I know, hard to follow...


Regards
Udo
 
WINGS
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RE: A&C - A380 Delays Cost A340-5/-6 Orders?

Fri Sep 16, 2005 8:11 pm

Quoting Udo (Reply 1):
Emirates and the A340-600 comes to mind.

Well the following also come to mind,

Lufthansa
Thai
Virgin Atlantic
Qatar
Ethiad

Regards,
Wings
 
A342
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RE: A&C - A380 Delays Cost A340-5/-6 Orders?

Fri Sep 16, 2005 8:30 pm

Quoting WINGS (Reply 6):
Well the following also come to mind,

Lufthansa
Thai
Virgin Atlantic

You can rule out these 3. They have no B777-300ER on order and need the planes, hence the fact that all of these carriers have placed repeat orders for the A346 (TG did so even before receiving the 1st aircraft).
 
Udo
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RE: A&C - A380 Delays Cost A340-5/-6 Orders?

Fri Sep 16, 2005 8:37 pm

Quoting A342 (Reply 7):
You can rule out these 3. They have no B777-300ER on order and need the planes, hence the fact that all of these carriers have placed repeat orders for the A346 (TG did so even before receiving the 1st aircraft).

I agree. Lufthansa need the A346, I wouldn't be surprised to see them ordering even more in the future. The same with Thai and Virgin, very unlikely to see them canceling orders.

Quoting WINGS (Reply 6):
Qatar

Their A380 are not scheduled until 2009, so they won't face delays.


My bet is Emirates.


Regards
Udo
 
Ruscoe
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RE: A&C - A380 Delays Cost A340-5/-6 Orders?

Fri Sep 16, 2005 8:37 pm

The weakness in the Airbus position, (I have heard on another forum) is that some of the contracts allow cancellation up to 12 months before delivery with very little penalty.
Gives the airlines a lot of bargaining power.

Ruscoe
 
WINGS
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RE: A&C - A380 Delays Cost A340-5/-6 Orders?

Fri Sep 16, 2005 8:51 pm

Quoting Udo (Reply 8):

Their A380 are not scheduled until 2009, so they won't face delays.


Lets not forget that Ethiad will be getting the some of the test models.

Quoting Udo (Reply 8):

My bet is Emirates.

I too would put my money on Emirates. Although some have mentioned that the A340-600 would provide better up lift than the B777-300ER in HOT AND HIGH terrain, hence the main reason Emirates ordered this model.

Regards,
Wings
 
Udo
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RE: A&C - A380 Delays Cost A340-5/-6 Orders?

Fri Sep 16, 2005 9:14 pm

Quoting WINGS (Reply 10):
Lets not forget that Ethiad will be getting the some of the test models.

Yes, Etihad gets test aircraft but the question is whether a compensation for the delay of two aircraft is large enough to reach the amount of ordered A345/346. Additionally one can assume they got a really hot deal for the A380 test frames - and wouldn't a compensation be somehow related to the purchase price?


Regards
Udo
 
Maersk737
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RE: A&C - A380 Delays Cost A340-5/-6 Orders?

Fri Sep 16, 2005 9:37 pm

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 9):
The weakness in the Airbus position, (I have heard on another forum) is that some of the contracts allow cancellation up to 12 months before delivery with very little penalty.
Gives the airlines a lot of bargaining power.

Yes, if what you heard is correct  

Edit: spelling

Cheers

Peter

[Edited 2005-09-16 14:43:25]
 
Thorben
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RE: A&C - A380 Delays Cost A340-5/-6 Orders?

Fri Sep 16, 2005 9:54 pm

Let's see, which A380 customer has A345/6 on order???

Emirates has almost all of its A345s, but is supposed to get A346 beginning next year. And they seem to be mad about the delays.

Etihad has 4 A345 and 4 A346 on order, but are their A380s delayed yet??

Qatar has 2 A346 on order, but are their A380s delayed yet??

All of these will use the 773ER as well, so maybe they'll take the opportunity to cancel the 346 now.

Lufthansa: They have 10 A346 in service and wait for another seven. Why would they cancel the A346 now???

Virgin: Has another 10 A346 on order. Wants to have them, I don't think they would cancel them.

Thai: Does already have about half of the A345s and A346s they ordered. What would be the sense of canceling now???

Besides,

Quoting Udo (Reply 1):
not take the chance and get rid of some orders for mostly obsolete aircraft?

Now why is the A346 mostly obsolete? IIRC then two 773 operators ordered it instead of the 773ER. And South African, Lufthansa, Virgin and Iberia don't seem to be to unhappy with them. One senior manager of LH said recently, they thought about ordering the 777 instead of the follow-up order of A346, to show Boeing that they are still interested in a good relationship, but LH is not the Caritas (Christian charity organization).
 
Udo
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RE: A&C - A380 Delays Cost A340-5/-6 Orders?

Fri Sep 16, 2005 10:08 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 13):
Now why is the A346 mostly obsolete?

Mostly obsolete for Emirates because the B77W can fly most missions more efficiently.


Regards
Udo
 
Thorben
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RE: A&C - A380 Delays Cost A340-5/-6 Orders?

Fri Sep 16, 2005 10:34 pm

Quoting Udo (Reply 14):
Mostly obsolete for Emirates because the B77W can fly most missions more efficiently

And why is that?
 
Udo
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RE: A&C - A380 Delays Cost A340-5/-6 Orders?

Fri Sep 16, 2005 10:39 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 15):
And why is that?

Less weight, more payload, two engines.


Regards
Udo
 
WINGS
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RE: A&C - A380 Delays Cost A340-5/-6 Orders?

Fri Sep 16, 2005 10:46 pm

I would like to take another point of view regarding this topic.

Airbus may be in troubled waters over the late delivery of the A380. But as I see it, Boeing is also headed for the same trouble with the strike of its work force.
The main difference being that Airbus informed the airlines quite early.

The difference with Boeing is that airlines were expecting delivery in the immediate future. This may cause more headaches to Boeing than that Airbus would have to face with the A380.

Don't forget that Airbus has to deal with the late delivery of one type of plane the A380. While Boeing has to worry about a lot more, the B717,737,767,777, and 747. Not quite sure if its military division is also effected by the strike?

Regards,
Wings
 
Shenzhen
Topic Author
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RE: A&C - A380 Delays Cost A340-5/-6 Orders?

Sat Sep 17, 2005 12:16 am

Quoting WINGS (Reply 17):
Airbus may be in troubled waters over the late delivery of the A380. But as I see it, Boeing is also headed for the same trouble with the strike of its work force.
The main difference being that Airbus informed the airlines quite early.

The good news for Boeing is, they don't have any A340-5/-6s ordered from them.

Cheers
 
NYC777
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RE: A&C - A380 Delays Cost A340-5/-6 Orders?

Sat Sep 17, 2005 2:47 am

Quoting WINGS (Reply 17):
Don't forget that Airbus has to deal with the late delivery of one type of plane the A380. While Boeing has to worry about a lot more, the B717,737,767,777, and 747. Not quite sure if its military division is also effected by the strike?

Long Beach is not affected by the strike so there is no impact on remaining 717 deliveries. The strike impacts on BCAG not the military side at all.
 
HanginOut
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RE: A&C - A380 Delays Cost A340-5/-6 Orders?

Sat Sep 17, 2005 3:06 am

Since EK is supposed to be ordering a large number of A350s, I wouldn't be too terribly shocked if Airbus let them cancel A346 orders as part of their compensation for the delays in A380 deliveries. If I were Airbus the last thing I would want to do right now would be to upset EK.

 twocents 

HanginOut
 
bill142
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RE: A&C - A380 Delays Cost A340-5/-6 Orders?

Sat Sep 17, 2005 6:34 am

Have Airbus even started development of the A346HGW which is the version EK has ordered?. Isn't the first delivery due sometime in the next few years?
 
seachaz
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RE: A&C - A380 Delays Cost A340-5/-6 Orders?

Sat Sep 17, 2005 9:20 am

As far as deliveries and the strike, I've heard speculation from a neighbor of mine (who is a Boeing machinist and union steward) that Boeing potentially wanted the strike because it was going to miss delivery dates on some planes. By having the union go on strike, Boeing is legally set free from its previous delivery dates due to a provision worked into all orders stating a work stoppage will essential push all deliveries to a future date. Again, this is only speculation and while it doesn't make Boeing look any better to customers it does protect them from a legal mess unlike airbus.
 
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ER757
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RE: A&C - A380 Delays Cost A340-5/-6 Orders?

Sat Sep 17, 2005 11:26 am

Quoting WINGS (Reply 16):
Airbus may be in troubled waters over the late delivery of the A380. But as I see it, Boeing is also headed for the same trouble with the strike of its work force.

Good point - many analysts think the strike may be a long one too. There aren't even any new talks between Boeing and the union scheduled at this time. Hate to see it, hope they works things out soon, but doubt it
 Sad
 
dalecary
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RE: A&C - A380 Delays Cost A340-5/-6 Orders?

Sat Sep 17, 2005 11:59 am

I'll be very interested to see what EK order at the DXB airshow in Nov. Lots of talk the 346 order will be cancelled, the 345s will be offloaded and big orders will be placed for the A359(have heard 50+20 options) and 772F/772LR/773ER. Sounds sensible to me and allows EK to base their fleet around 3 types: 359/777/380. The only change I could possibly see occurring is 789s instead of 359s, but I don't think that will happen. Boeing appear to have a lot of convincing to do to get EK to look at a 9-abreast 789. The 787-10 just isn't going to happen yet, but the 789's design hasn't yet been frozen. Will be interesting to see it's final size(a 2 row extension would make it A333 size for all intents and purposes).
 
Thorben
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RE: A&C - A380 Delays Cost A340-5/-6 Orders?

Sat Sep 17, 2005 5:51 pm

Quoting Udo (Reply 15):
Less weight, more payload, two engines.

Does it really have more payload?

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 20):
Have Airbus even started development of the A346HGW which is the version EK has ordered?. Isn't the first delivery due sometime in the next few years?

Delivery is supposed to be in the second quarter of 2006. I hope they make that. Source: http://www.flightinternational.com/A...87/Airbus+monopoly+challenged.html

Quoting SEAchaz (Reply 21):
As far as deliveries and the strike, I've heard speculation from a neighbor of mine (who is a Boeing machinist and union steward) that Boeing potentially wanted the strike because it was going to miss delivery dates on some planes. By having the union go on strike, Boeing is legally set free from its previous delivery dates due to a provision worked into all orders stating a work stoppage will essential push all deliveries to a future date. Again, this is only speculation and while it doesn't make Boeing look any better to customers it does protect them from a legal mess unlike airbus.

Interesting. Would be a scandal, if true. But I think that's not an option for Airbus now, because the compensation seems to be less than 100 Million Euros.
 
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garpd
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RE: A&C - A380 Delays Cost A340-5/-6 Orders?

Sat Sep 17, 2005 6:19 pm

Quoting WINGS (Reply 16):
Airbus may be in troubled waters over the late delivery of the A380. But as I see it, Boeing is also headed for the same trouble with the strike of its work force.
The main difference being that Airbus informed the airlines quite early.

So you are ignoring the SQ press release that states Airbus were very conservative about the truth about the test program?
SQ were very angry that Airbus did not tell them about the delays when it was apparent there would be a 6 month delay for some time.
 
WINGS
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RE: A&C - A380 Delays Cost A340-5/-6 Orders?

Sat Sep 17, 2005 7:24 pm

Quoting GARPD (Reply 25):
So you are ignoring the SQ press release that states Airbus were very conservative about the truth about the test program?
SQ were very angry that Airbus did not tell them about the delays when it was apparent there would be a 6 month delay for some time.

Once again GARPD you have been able to miss my point completely.

Its rather quite simple. Singapore airlines was to receive their first A380 in the third quarter of 2006. This delivery has now been postponed into 2007. This means that Singapore airlines still has some time to reorganize its network regarding its late delivery of the A380.

In the case of Boeing its a different matter altogether. Many airlines were expecting to get their aircraft delivered in the near future. This basically means that airlines have less time to work out their network.

Quoting GARPD (Reply 25):
SQ were very angry that Airbus did not tell them about the delays when it was apparent there would be a 6 month delay for some time.

I totally agree with you on this point. It would have been in Airbus best interest to have revealed this problem earlier.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 18):

Long Beach is not affected by the strike so there is no impact on remaining 717 deliveries. The strike impacts on BCAG not the military side at all.

Thank you for clearing that up NYC777, I was not aware that Long Beach was not being affected by the Boeing strike.

Regards,
Wings
 
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garpd
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RE: A&C - A380 Delays Cost A340-5/-6 Orders?

Sat Sep 17, 2005 7:29 pm

Quoting WINGS (Reply 26):
In the case of Boeing its a different matter altogether. Many airlines were expecting to get their aircraft delivered in the near future. This basically means that airlines have less time to work out their network.

But in the case of Boeing, it is a strike. Not a program set back.

Two totaly different circumstances and completely unrelated and uncomparable.
 
whitehatter
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RE: A&C - A380 Delays Cost A340-5/-6 Orders?

Sat Sep 17, 2005 7:48 pm

Because it is a bad translation, it could also be read that airlines could use their leverage on the A380 delays to obtain cancellations of their A340 slots and convert them without penalty into A350 orders.

Which would be more likely as it does not involve loss of money to the carriers of any form, whereas outright cancellation would have no value to them.
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: A&C - A380 Delays Cost A340-5/-6 Orders?

Sat Sep 17, 2005 7:50 pm

Quoting WINGS (Reply 26):
Its rather quite simple. Singapore airlines was to receive their first A380 in the third quarter of 2006. This delivery has now been postponed into 2007. This means that Singapore airlines still has some time to reorganize its network regarding its late delivery of the A380.

If you want to know how embarrassed SQ is, consider there was a standard logo placed on their business cards that said "First to Fly A380 in 2006". This logo has now been removed, although some of the old cards are still being handed out until they're used up.
 
WINGS
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RE: A&C - A380 Delays Cost A340-5/-6 Orders?

Sat Sep 17, 2005 9:05 pm

Quoting GARPD (Reply 27):
But in the case of Boeing, it is a strike. Not a program set back.

Two totaly different circumstances and completely unrelated and uncomparable.

GARPD, please take another look at my original post. Read it carefully. I was simply taking another point of view. Nothing more and nothing less.

Quoting WINGS (Reply 16):
I would like to take another point of view regarding this topic.

Airbus may be in troubled waters over the late delivery of the A380. But as I see it, Boeing is also headed for the same trouble with the strike of its work force.
The main difference being that Airbus informed the airlines quite early.

The difference with Boeing is that airlines were expecting delivery in the immediate future. This may cause more headaches to Boeing than that Airbus would have to face with the A380.

Don't forget that Airbus has to deal with the late delivery of one type of plane the A380. While Boeing has to worry about a lot more, the B717,737,767,777, and 747. Not quite sure if its military division is also effected by the strike?

Regards,
Wings



Quoting GARPD (Reply 27):
But in the case of Boeing, it is a strike. Not a program set back.

Airlines don't give a rats  butthead  whose fault it is.

What makes you think that those airlines that were supposed to receive their planes this month are all cheery about it?

Regards,
Wings
 
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garpd
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RE: A&C - A380 Delays Cost A340-5/-6 Orders?

Sat Sep 17, 2005 9:19 pm

Quoting WINGS (Reply 30):
What makes you think that those airlines that were supposed to receive their planes this month are all cheery about it?

I never said that.

My objection here is your intimation that Airbus inform their customers of whats going on, where as Boeing do not. This is clearly untrue.

As I have highlighted, it is Airbus that are the ones being less than willing to inform customers of delays, even when they know well in advance there will be any.

Boeing informed their customers as soon as they could in relation to this Strike, which unlike the program delays on the A380, was not exactly forseeable in terms of certainty.

I beleive within the first week of the strike, customers such as Air New Zealand knew of a possible delay in delivery of their 777s.

It took Airbus almost month to own up to the A380 delays, if I read SQ's statement correct.
 
WINGS
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RE: A&C - A380 Delays Cost A340-5/-6 Orders?

Sat Sep 17, 2005 10:24 pm

Quoting GARPD (Reply 31):
My objection here is your intimation that Airbus inform their customers of what's going on, where as Boeing do not. This is clearly untrue.

GARPD, my point being that both Airbus and Boeing may be subject to penalties due to late delivery. The circumstances are quite different for both manufactures although they still exist.

My point being that it will be a lot easier for Singapore Airlines to alter their time table for the A380, than for Air New Zealand and their B777 which are were to start arriving now.

In the case of Airbus they have to focus on three Airlines, Singapore Airlines, Qantas and Emirates as they will be the most effected.

In the case of Boeing all customers that were due to receive aircraft this month and even latter will be affected. Leaving more airlines upset.

Hope you understand where am coming from on this matter?

Regards,
Wings
 
NAV20
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RE: A&C - A380 Delays Cost A340-5/-6 Orders?

Sat Sep 17, 2005 10:58 pm

Wings, there are very big differences between the two situations.

Firstly, it is highly unlikely that industrial action will trigger any compensation clause. It is usually one of the first exclusions written into any contract.

Secondly, one thing you know about any strike is that it will end eventually. I would expect this one to end fairly soon - probably next month or in early November, so the machinists can rebuild their finances in time for Christmas! Once they are back, they will probably be only too happy to work overtime, too, for the same reason! So there is every prospect of some of the delays being caught up with.

Thirdly, the effect on Boeing's 'bottom line' will be much less. They are saving a lot on wages and overheads, after all  Smile By contrast, any compensation Airbus has to pay will come straight out of profits.

Fourthly, and probably most important, it looks as if Airbus is having to agree to the cancellation of orders on other (probably more profitable) aircraft to pacify the A380 customers; which will further magnify any losses.
 
glacote
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RE: A&C - A380 Delays Cost A340-5/-6 Orders?

Sat Sep 17, 2005 11:52 pm

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 8):
The weakness in the Airbus position, (I have heard on another forum) is that some of the contracts allow cancellation up to 12 months before delivery with very little penalty.

Would you have a source on this? Or is it like the B787 windows compared to Concorde's ones and claimed to be compared to the A340's?
 
NAV20
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RE: A&C - A380 Delays Cost A340-5/-6 Orders?

Sun Sep 18, 2005 12:15 am

Quoting Glacote (Reply 34):
Would you have a source on this?

Glacote, I have literally lost count of the number of times I have posted this link, in response to the same query. The story confirms both the large initial discounts offered and the penalty-free cancellation clause up to 12 months before delivery.

"Giving 'Em Away."

"BusinessWeek has learned that the company is giving extraordinarily generous terms to early buyers. It's selling the cargo model of the A380 for as low as $133 million and the passenger model for just over $140 million--about 40% off list prices and less than the going rate of $140 million to $150 million for Boeing's 747. Airbus is accepting down payments as low as $500,000 per plane while giving customers the option of canceling orders 12 months before delivery without customary penalties."


http://www.businessweek.com/2001/01_10/b3722107.htm
 
Udo
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RE: A&C - A380 Delays Cost A340-5/-6 Orders?

Sun Sep 18, 2005 12:27 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 35):

Glacote, I have literally lost count of the number of times I have posted this link, in response to the same query. The story confirms both the large initial discounts offered and the penalty-free cancellation clause up to 12 months before delivery.

The key term is "early customers". Anyways, that article is four and a half years old. Great source for today...  Yeah sure


Regards
Udo
 
NAV20
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RE: A&C - A380 Delays Cost A340-5/-6 Orders?

Sun Sep 18, 2005 12:32 am

Quoting Udo (Reply 36):
that article is four and a half years old.

So are a lot of the A380 orders, Udo old mate......  Smile

Besides - does the fact of it having been published a long time ago make it inaccurate?
 
PlaneDane
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RE: A&C - A380 Delays Cost A340-5/-6 Orders?

Sun Sep 18, 2005 12:41 am

Quoting WINGS (Reply 32):
In the case of Boeing all customers that were due to receive aircraft this month and even latter will be affected. Leaving more airlines upset.

Hope you understand where am coming from on this matter?

Actually, the opposite is true.

Airlines expect Boeing to hold the line on costs that will eventually get passed along to them as customers. While they may support the unions, they still actually want to see Boeing management resist giving in too much to contract demands. So, airlines usually aren't upset at all by strikes.

In fact, any airline scheduled to receive aircraft during a period of time when contract negotiations are to take place, can and does expect a strike to occur. They even know, on average, how long a strike will last and what it will cost.

All this information is already factored into the airline's overall planning including budgeting, marketing and entry-into-service for the delivered aircraft. It's just normal business...

[Edited 2005-09-17 17:47:10]

[Edited 2005-09-17 17:50:26]
 
boeingbus
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RE: A&C - A380 Delays Cost A340-5/-6 Orders?

Sun Sep 18, 2005 12:46 am

Quoting WINGS (Reply 32):
My point being that it will be a lot easier for Singapore Airlines to alter their time table for the A380, than for Air New Zealand and their B777 which are were to start arriving now.

Wings I am going to have to agree with GARPD on this one. For a start in this argument/discussion, Airbus was to deliver a new type of plane that is unprecedented in size and implementation. Airlines who go for the A380 need to plan for it many years in advance. From airport configurations to personnel such as additional flights attendants, pilots, catering, and maintenance.

In Air New Zealand missing their 777 is much easier to cope for both parties... Boeing can easily sub this with a replacement of similar capacity and maybe include a discount for a future sale doe the inconvenience. All the other customers Boeing can offer similar approaches.... You can't fit 550 folks on a 346/747. Airbus is most likely required to compensate the investment that is need to sustain a six month delay of the whaleJet. Again, I think its comparing apples to oranges here... Both are painful for both manufactures but Airbus most definitely has more pain to bear here in these two different cases.
 
Udo
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RE: A&C - A380 Delays Cost A340-5/-6 Orders?

Sun Sep 18, 2005 12:48 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 37):
Besides - does the fact of it having been published a long time ago make it inaccurate?

It simply covers the situation four and a half years ago. Who would be interested in an article about the Sonic Cruiser today?


Regards
Udo
 
NAV20
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RE: A&C - A380 Delays Cost A340-5/-6 Orders?

Sun Sep 18, 2005 1:05 am

It covers the situation now, Udo. Qantas, SIA, FeDex, and others aren't going to pay any more than they agreed to pay back then. A good deal less, given that they are pitching for compensation for delays, and also look like having to put up with lower performance than they were expecting.

And as to the cancellation clause, it will be interesting to see what happens (particularly in the case of Singapore Airlines) if there are any more delays..........
 
Udo
Posts: 4288
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 5:16 pm

RE: A&C - A380 Delays Cost A340-5/-6 Orders?

Sun Sep 18, 2005 1:13 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 41):
It covers the situation now, Udo. Qantas, SIA, FeDex, and others aren't going to pay any more than they agreed to pay back then.

The article refers to early customers - and that's it. It's not representative for all customers following later (after first half of 2001).

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 41):
and also look like having to put up with lower performance than they were expecting.

"Look like" - your odd 500-seats theory. I see.  Yeah sure

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 41):
particularly in the case of Singapore Airlines) if there are any more delays..........

If If If...even if, SIA won't cancel the bird.


Regards
Udo
 
leelaw
Posts: 4517
Joined: Sat May 29, 2004 4:13 pm

RE: A&C - A380 Delays Cost A340-5/-6 Orders?

Sun Sep 18, 2005 1:32 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 41):
And as to the cancellation clause, it will be interesting to see what happens (particularly in the case of Singapore Airlines) if there are any more delays..........

IMO, it's doubtful SQ will cancel its order, unless actual performance turns out to be truly dreadful, regardless of delays.

Nevertheless, I'm confident that the hatchet men at Changi are gleefully sharpening their axes and trimming their canes to inflict the maximum amount of financial pain on Airbus.
 
NAV20
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RE: A&C - A380 Delays Cost A340-5/-6 Orders?

Sun Sep 18, 2005 1:38 am

Quoting Udo (Reply 42):
not representative for all customers following later (after first half of 2001).

It's the naivete' of yer av'rage Airbus fan that never ceases to amaze me, Udo.

Do you seriously think that a prospective purchaser in the second half of 2001 (or any time in 2002 for that matter) would have read (and filed) those figures in 'Business Week' and then cheerfully agreed to pay an extra hundred million bucks or so per frame........?

[Edited 2005-09-17 18:47:01]
 
astuteman
Posts: 7454
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

RE: A&C - A380 Delays Cost A340-5/-6 Orders?

Sun Sep 18, 2005 1:48 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 33):
Thirdly, the effect on Boeing's 'bottom line' will be much less. They are saving a lot on wages and overheads, after all By contrast, any compensation Airbus has to pay will come straight out of profits.

You couldn't be more wrong about that - a prolonged strike is a DISASTER for operating margins. About 25% to 35% of the operating cost figure for a frame will be to cover corporate overheads, and non-labour related overheads relating to the facilities, costs which carry on relentlessly. Only the direct labour, material, and labour-related overheads are not lost. Boeing will be losing between $25m and $35m per day on the basis of reports citing lost production being about 1 frame per day.

That's not meant to be gloating, by the way - I don't like it any more than anyone else, but I've project managed major programmes through major facilities during strike periods, and the impact on profit is NOT trivial.

Particularly as BCAD reported Operating Profits last year were only $770M (and that's before interest and tax..)

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 33):
Firstly, it is highly unlikely that industrial action will trigger any compensation clause. It is usually one of the first exclusions written into any contract.

You're right about that - most major long-term contracts will have "force-majeure" clauses written in.
 
airfrnt
Posts: 2181
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RE: A&C - A380 Delays Cost A340-5/-6 Orders?

Sun Sep 18, 2005 11:32 am

Quoting WINGS (Reply 16):

Airbus may be in troubled waters over the late delivery of the A380. But as I see it, Boeing is also headed for the same trouble with the strike of its work force.

That's a weak link at best. From what I understand, there are contract clauses to protect boeing (if Boeing's workers strike) or the airlines (if a aircraft is due to be delivered during a strike).

Quoting WINGS (Reply 16):
The main difference being that Airbus informed the airlines quite early.

Umm. Sorry, there is a lot of documentation that indicates otherwise.

Quoting WINGS (Reply 16):

The difference with Boeing is that airlines were expecting delivery in the immediate future. This may cause more headaches to Boeing than that Airbus would have to face with the A380.

It may, or it may not. Anyway you look at it, it's just speculation, and other then adding more fuel to a AvB war, doesn't add anything to the discussion. Start your own post when CO threatens to sue Boeing for failure to deliver a plane.

Quoting Udo (Reply 36):
The key term is "early customers". Anyways, that article is four and a half years old. Great source for today...

Funny, almost all of the orders were four and a half years ago. Unless you have personal information that indicates that the contracts where changed?
 
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zeke
Posts: 16432
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

RE: A&C - A380 Delays Cost A340-5/-6 Orders?

Sun Sep 18, 2005 11:43 am

Quoting Udo (Reply 15):
Less weight, more payload, two engines.

UDO,

Incorrect.

A twin like the 777 or 330 by definition is overpowered to meet one engine inoperative takeoff performance. A twin needs to be able to continue flying with one engine inoperative with only 50% of the remaining thrust available, whereas 75% for a quad.

E.g. a
A340 TOW of 257 t with 4xCFM 56 engines producing 4 x 31200 lb = 124000 lb thrust
B777 TOW of 257 t with 2xGE 90 engines producing 2x 82200 lb = 164400 lb of thrust

All engines operating the 777 has more thrust, with one engine out, it has less, it lost 50% of its thrust (92800 for the A340 and 82200 for the 777).

The excess thrust means inefficient cruise, as the thrust is not optimum for the cruise level, means the aircraft is burning additional fuel. It is also carrying around additional engine weight and drag for that excess thrust, which also increase fuel burn again.

Not all quads are the same, the A340 is 14-30% more efficient than a 747-400, i.e. over a 4000 nm trip a 747-400 will burn 79t of fuel, a A340 will burn 51t (i.e. the 747-400 will burn 55% addition fuel, which works out to 14% per seat). The fuel burn of the A340 is lower than a 767, and lower than a 777. The 777 fuel burn is 40% less than a 747-400.

The 777 is not much more than a scaled up 767. Sales of 747's, A340's, A380's are not finished despite what Boeing PR may want you to believe.

So I disagree with your comments above.
 
iwok
Posts: 979
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 2:35 pm

RE: A&C - A380 Delays Cost A340-5/-6 Orders?

Sun Sep 18, 2005 12:53 pm

Quoting Zeke (Reply 47):
The excess thrust means inefficient cruise, as the thrust is not optimum for the cruise level, means the aircraft is burning additional fuel. It is also carrying around additional engine weight and drag for that excess thrust, which also increase fuel burn again.

Just because the engines are size for a MTOW engine out, does not mean that the fly at that rating all the time. Are you saying that two engines add more weight and drag compared to four engines?

Do you drive at full throttle all the time?

Quoting Zeke (Reply 47):
Not all quads are the same, the A340 is 14-30% more efficient than a 747-400, i.e. over a 4000 nm trip a 747-400 will burn 79t of fuel, a A340 will burn 51t (i.e. the 747-400 will burn 55% addition fuel, which works out to 14% per seat). The fuel burn of the A340 is lower than a 767, and lower than a 777. The 777 fuel burn is 40% less than a 747-400.

How are you defining efficiency? Yes a smaller plane often burns less fuel than a larger plane. Does that make it more efficient?

You compare 777 vs 340 vs 747-400. What types of 777 and 340 are you talking about? 342,4,6 : 772,3,ER,LR : 762,3,4,ER ? etc.

Quoting Zeke (Reply 47):
The 777 is not much more than a scaled up 767. Sales of 747's, A340's, A380's are not finished despite what Boeing PR may want you to believe.

The 767/777 analysis is priceless !  Smile BTW, I am sure that Boeing PR would not want you to believe that sales of 747's are finished.  Wink

iwok
 
OldAeroGuy
Posts: 3928
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 6:50 am

RE: A&C - A380 Delays Cost A340-5/-6 Orders?

Sun Sep 18, 2005 1:22 pm

Quoting Zeke (Reply 47):
The excess thrust means inefficient cruise, as the thrust is not optimum for the cruise level, means the aircraft is burning additional fuel. It is also carrying around additional engine weight and drag for that excess thrust, which also increase fuel burn again.

Considering that the payload-range for the 777-300ER and the A340-600 are essentially the same, please explain why the 773ER has a 28.5 tonne lower MTOW (351.5 vs 380) and a 10% lower fuel capacity than the A346. This doesn't seem to be consistent with your quoted statement.

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