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MarshalN
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Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2005 9:39 am

RE: How Is Singapore Doing On It's LAX-SIN-LAX Route?

Sat Sep 24, 2005 3:51 pm

Quoting An-225 (Reply 42):
I don't know how you guys find 777s loud. I've been on 13 777 segments, including 2 international (IAD-AMS and FRA-ORD) and 2 Hawaiian (LAX-HNL-LAX) and had absolutely no problems sleeping. If you find a 777 noisy, try flying on a Tu-154 (marvellous machine, by the way). That'll clear your ears!

What part of the airplane were you sitting in? Having flown the excruciating 17 hour segment from EWR to HKG multiple times, I have to say 777 is preeeeetty loud.

Quoting Zeke (Reply 47):
Current 777 simulator profiles in Asia include a turnback after takeoff due to a 777 double engine failure on takeoff after the incident last year.

Is that possible (turn back) after a double engine failure?? wouldn't that leave you with 0 thrust?
 
WINGS
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RE: How Is Singapore Doing On It's LAX-SIN-LAX Route?

Sat Sep 24, 2005 6:52 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 48):

It's the A343 that is really quieter due to it's underpowered cigars. The 345/346 LOST the engine noise advantage, and thus had to resort to some expensive panel mounting to try and dampen noise and vibration. Good for them, BTW, as B should do the same.

With all these little extras to improve cabin comfortness to the flying public no wonder the A340-500/600 are heavier that the B777 family.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 48):
I'm really interested in the A350, with two big engines and thinner interior wall panels to increase interior space, wonder how the noise is going to be on that.

Am sure they will resort to improving the panel mountings.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 35):
....and when did I say she was wrong? ..I said she's more aware of her environment, and with her experience, she knows the difference between the noise levels of the 777 and 345 where as most pax don't have a clue.....Don't put words in my mouth. talktothehand

You simply resorted to giving your point of view why she though the A340-500 was quieter than the B777 family.

Regards,
Wings
 
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mariner
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RE: How Is Singapore Doing On It's LAX-SIN-LAX Route?

Sat Sep 24, 2005 7:03 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 46):
fly in the back of a VC-10...thats loud!

The VC-10 was not particularly loud in the back. BOAC had a whole ad campaign based on the quietness of it - "try a little VC-Ten-derness".

Perhaps you meant the BAC 111 - that was loud.

cheers

mariner
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: How Is Singapore Doing On It's LAX-SIN-LAX Route?

Sun Sep 25, 2005 5:58 am

Quoting Zeke (Reply 47):
High thrust to weight ratio does not help you if you loose two engines on takeoff like one operator did at WMKK last year in a 777 just after takeoff.

Never heard of this incident. Could you please provide a reference?

A dual engine failure after takeoff on a twin engine airplane would seem to lead to an off airport landing (at least). I've never heard of one of these for the 777 either.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: How Is Singapore Doing On It's LAX-SIN-LAX Rou

Sun Sep 25, 2005 6:11 am

>> High thrust to weight ratio does not help you if you loose two engines on takeoff like one operator did at WMKK last year in a 777 just after takeoff.

Zeke, a 777 being flown by an opperator has never lost two engines during flight. Ever.
 
matt24wigan
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RE: How Is Singapore Doing On It's LAX-SIN-LAX Route?

Sun Sep 25, 2005 6:11 am

can anyone tell me what changi airport looks like now
 
SQ2
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RE: How Is Singapore Doing On It's LAX-SIN-LAX Route?

Sun Sep 25, 2005 6:58 am

seems like the topic lax-sin-lax change to something else
 
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zeke
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RE: How Is Singapore Doing On It's LAX-SIN-LAX Route?

Sun Sep 25, 2005 1:14 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 54):
Zeke, a 777 being flown by an opperator has never lost two engines during flight. Ever.

It was within the last 12 month after takeoff out of WMKK by MH. The aircraft turned back and landed at the airport with a glide approach. My understanding it was a computer/electronics problem, not a mechanical one, occurred when they went from takeoff thrust and reduced to climb.

The engines failed to continue to produce the commanded climb power, do not jump to the conclusion that a loss of power means a mechanical failure fire or failure. I don't know if the rolled back to idle or shutdown.

Airlines in Asia know about the incident, and its part of the current simulator profile in Asia with some airlines, including the worlds largest 777 operator that is based in aSIA. The current profile involves a turn back after takeoff for a glide approach.

As it was a Malaysian registered aircraft, incident occurred in Malaysia, only the Malaysian DCA needs to be involved with the investigation.

This is second serious incident involving a 777 for MH in the past year, accident and incident reports in Asia are not widely available as most parts in the western world. You only know about the other one as it did not happen in Malaysia.

Rollbacks have occurred with many engine types, both FADEC and non FADEC. Examples of four engine rollbacks include British Airways 747 with loss of 4 engines in flight due to volcanic ash over Indonesia, and Ansett BAe-146 4 engine rollback in cruise due to high bleed demand for engine and wing anti ice at high altitude. A number of 717 rollbacks have occurred in Australia over the last few years.
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: How Is Singapore Doing On It's LAX-SIN-LAX Route?

Sun Sep 25, 2005 2:05 pm

Quoting Zeke (Reply 57):
It was within the last 12 month after takeoff out of WMKK by MH. The aircraft turned back and landed at the airport with a glide approach. My understanding it was a computer/electronics problem, not a mechanical one, occurred when they went from takeoff thrust and reduced to climb.

As part of my job, I regularly review safety events for a number of large commercial transports, including the 777. I've never heard of this incident. Can you provide a date and a location?

Quoting Zeke (Reply 57):
As it was a Malaysian registered aircraft, incident occurred in Malaysia, only the Malaysian DCA needs to be involved with the investigation

This is not how the safety reporting system works. As the certifying agency for the country of manufacturer, the FAA would be involved. For an incident of this magnitude, the NTSB would also be asking questions. I've heard nothing from either of these bodies.

Please provide more specific information if possible. If not possible, please do not repeat this type of rumor. It's unprofessional and does not serve the world of commercial aviation.
 
jacobin777
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RE: How Is Singapore Doing On It's LAX-SIN-LAX Rou

Sun Sep 25, 2005 2:13 pm

Quoting WINGS (Reply 51):

You simply resorted to giving your point of view why she though the A340-500 was quieter than the B777 family.

and..once again, that has nothing to do with me disagreeing or agreeing with her...

Quoting Mariner (Reply 52):
The VC-10 was not particularly loud in the back. BOAC had a whole ad campaign based on the quietness of it - "try a little VC-Ten-derness".

correct, thank you very much..been fortunate to fly on both.... Smile
 
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mariner
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RE: How Is Singapore Doing On It's LAX-SIN-LAX Route?

Sun Sep 25, 2005 2:21 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 59):
been fortunate to fly on both.

You must have been a child in arms!

I was young when I flew on the VC-10 - mid-20's - and I am many, many years older than you.  old 

cheers

mariner
 
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zeke
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RE: How Is Singapore Doing On It's LAX-SIN-LAX Route?

Sun Sep 25, 2005 3:08 pm

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 58):
This is not how the safety reporting system works. As the certifying agency for the country of manufacturer, the FAA would be involved.

It was not an accident, and therefore not reportable to the manufacturer under the Chicago convention.

The aircraft was Malaysian registered, although originally certified in the USA, each state subsequently issues a type certificate data sheet, a certificate of registration, and certificate of airworthiness. The FAA and NTSB are not involved with incidents investigations not involving US registered aircraft, or outside US airspace unless invited to do so by a sovereign state, and if they do so they generally have an observer or technical assistance roles.

You will find no incidents on the NTSB database of any Malaysian registered aircraft outside US airspace. Please note the differentiation between incident and accident.

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 58):
Please provide more specific information if possible. If not possible, please do not repeat this type of rumor. It's unprofessional and does not serve the world of commercial aviation.

I have listed the carrier, the airport, and a time frame, that is as specific as I am willing to go. If you wish you can verify this offline from this forum. The scenario did happen, and it is a current simulator profile as a result.
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: How Is Singapore Doing On It's LAX-SIN-LAX Route?

Sun Sep 25, 2005 4:26 pm

Quoting Zeke (Reply 61):
It was not an accident, and therefore not reportable to the manufacturer under the Chicago convention

Are you implying that the airline would not report this to Boeing? An incident of this magnitude would certainly be reported no matter where it happened as the airline would be demanding that correct action be taken.

As soon as Boeing is informed of such of an incident, they would are required to report it to the FAA under the incident/accident reporting regulations. That would trigger actions by the FAA and if the incident is serious enough, the NTSB.

I'm well aware of how the certification process works, having participated in the type certification and delivery certification of several major transport aircraft.

Quoting Zeke (Reply 61):
I have listed the carrier, the airport, and a time frame, that is as specific as I am willing to go. If you wish you can verify this offline from this forum.

If I could verify it offline, I would, but I find no record of such an incident. Don't ask me to substantiate rumors you are circulating. The burden of proof is yours.
 
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zeke
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RE: How Is Singapore Doing On It's LAX-SIN-LAX Route?

Sun Sep 25, 2005 4:38 pm

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 62):
Are you implying that the airline would not report this to Boeing? An incident of this magnitude would certainly be reported no matter where it happened as the airline would be demanding that correct action be taken.

As soon as Boeing is informed of such of an incident, they would are required to report it to the FAA under the incident/accident reporting regulations. That would trigger actions by the FAA and if the incident is serious enough, the NTSB.

No your just incorrect. Have a look at the Australian ATSB site for rollbacks or uncommanded engine shutdowns on the B717, you will not find corresponding FAA investigations for these incidents.
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: How Is Singapore Doing On It's LAX-SIN-LAX Route?

Sun Sep 25, 2005 6:23 pm

Quoting Zeke (Reply 63):
No your just incorrect. Have a look at the Australian ATSB site for rollbacks or uncommanded engine shutdowns on the B717, you will not find corresponding FAA investigations for these incidents.

No, you are wrong. This type of incident goes on a forum known as the COSP (Continued Operational Safety Program) bulletin board. Boeing and other manufacturer's are required to report under the COSP system by 14 CFR 21.3. The FAA may or not investigate depending on the nature and potential impact of a given incident.

I have access to this bulletin board and find no reference to the type of incident you are describing for the 777. There is no record of a dual engine power loss event that would have necessitated a "glide" approach
 
laca773
Topic Author
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RE: How Is Singapore Doing On It's LAX-SIN-LAX Route?

Sun Sep 25, 2005 11:47 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 49):

MaverickM11, Thanks for the information. I found it to be very interesting.

Quoting SQ2 (Reply 56):

SQ2, this happens a lot. I get frustrated about people getting off topic, but it's going to happen and it's not worth the hassle.

Hope everyone is having a great weekend.
LACA773
 
georgiaame
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RE: How Is Singapore Doing On It's LAX-SIN-LAX Route?

Sun Sep 25, 2005 11:59 pm

Unless the pilot's name was Harry Potter, I doubt a twin engine 777 with 2 engines out could climb, turn, line up, and land successfully. I think like Harry Potter flying a jinxed broomstick, a 777 with two engines out would tend to fall like a stone, much like the Titanic. Unless the engines died while on the ground during roll out.
 
zvezda
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RE: How Is Singapore Doing On It's LAX-SIN-LAX Route?

Mon Sep 26, 2005 12:18 am

Quoting GeorgiaAME (Reply 66):
Unless the pilot's name was Harry Potter, I doubt a twin engine 777 with 2 engines out could climb, turn, line up, and land successfully. I think like Harry Potter flying a jinxed broomstick, a 777 with two engines out would tend to fall like a stone, much like the Titanic. Unless the engines died while on the ground during roll out.

I don't know what the glide ratio is for a typically loaded B777 (12:1 perhaps?), but it does seem unlikely that an airliner could lose all engines during climb and then glide back to the T/O field. I think it would require a flightpath that turns around and overflies or nearly overflies the field.
 
jacobin777
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RE: How Is Singapore Doing On It's LAX-SIN-LAX Rou

Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:15 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 60):
You must have been a child in arms!

lol....actually I wasn't ......though I was a kid at the time, I still remember flying on a VC-10 because

1) I thought it was some kind of error and was a DC-10, but it didn't look like one (yes, I was able to differentiate between airplanes when I was at that age, in fact, back in 1974, even before being in grammar school, I remember spilling a glass of coke-next to the window seat the F/A gave me on my Pan Am flight form JFK-LHR).

on a side note: before the age of 10, I was able to fly business class on BA a few times for free because I was such a good kid..

2)the BA office in ISB/Rawalpindi had a huge 3 or 4 ft. model of the VC-10 and I remember all I did during the time I was at the BA office with my uncle (reconfirming bookings) was stare at the plane and wished how it look in my room..!

actually, I've been fortunate to travel at a very young age, in fact, I've often travelled alone (unaccompanied) without any airline help from ORD-Pakistan since the age of 7 or 8...certainly by the time I was 9.

It was usually ORD-AMS-KHI on KL

[Edited 2005-09-25 18:15:58]
 
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zeke
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RE: How Is Singapore Doing On It's LAX-SIN-LAX Route?

Mon Sep 26, 2005 3:11 am

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 64):
No, you are wrong. This type of incident goes on a forum known as the COSP (Continued Operational Safety Program) bulletin board. Boeing and other manufacturer's are required to report under the COSP system by 14 CFR 21.3. The FAA may or not investigate depending on the nature and potential impact of a given incident.

Do you have records of Air France 777 uncommanded engine shutdown July 1, 1998 ?

Do you have any records of any 777 uncommanded engine shutdowns ?

Do you have records of 15-20 inflight shutdowns in 777's ?
 
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mariner
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RE: How Is Singapore Doing On It's LAX-SIN-LAX Route?

Mon Sep 26, 2005 3:59 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 68):
I've often travelled alone (unaccompanied) without any airline help from ORD-Pakistan since the age of 7 or 8...certainly by the time I was 9.

If you were 7 or 8, I can't say :"snap" because my first solo flight wasn't until I was 9.

It was a BOAC flight from LHR (canvas marquees) to to Cairo via Rome on a Handley Page Hermes. At Cairo, I connected to an Aden Airways DC3 to Port Sudan, Jeddah and then Asmara, where my father was stationed.

In those days there was no such thing as 'economy class". That came a couple of years later.

 Smile

cheers

mariner
 
je89_w
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RE: How Is Singapore Doing On It's LAX-SIN-LAX Route?

Mon Sep 26, 2005 4:49 am

Would love to fly the A340NGs some day! Sounds like a very quiet aircraft.

Quoting Matt24wigan (Reply 55):
can anyone tell me what changi airport looks like now

Basically all you see is SQ B772s. Maybe an A345 and a couple of B744s parked among the B772s and B773s.
 
zvezda
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RE: How Is Singapore Doing On It's LAX-SIN-LAX Route?

Mon Sep 26, 2005 5:33 am

Quoting Matt24wigan (Reply 55):
can anyone tell me what changi airport looks like now



Quoting Je89_w (Reply 71):
Basically all you see is SQ B772s. Maybe an A345 and a couple of B744s parked among the B772s and B773s.

In a few years, there will be even more B777s, fewer B747s, the A340s will probably be gone, and there will be a few WhaleJets.  Smile
 
matt24wigan
Posts: 91
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RE: How Is Singapore Doing On It's LAX-SIN-LAX Route?

Mon Sep 26, 2005 5:36 am

i meant the interior of changi airport
 
jacobin777
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RE: How Is Singapore Doing On It's LAX-SIN-LAX Route?

Mon Sep 26, 2005 6:19 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 70):
It was a BOAC flight from LHR (canvas marquees) to to Cairo via Rome on a Handley Page Hermes. At Cairo, I connected to an Aden Airways DC3 to Port Sudan, Jeddah and then Asmara, where my father was stationed.

sounds fun to me...... yes 

..........but with my young age (in comparison), I can't relate...
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: How Is Singapore Doing On It's LAX-SIN-LAX Route?

Mon Sep 26, 2005 8:03 am

Quoting Zeke (Reply 69):
Do you have records of Air France 777 uncommanded engine shutdown July 1, 1998 ?


Do you have any records of any 777 uncommanded engine shutdowns ?


Do you have records of 15-20 inflight shutdowns in 777's ?

An event on this date would have happened before the advent of COSP which began operation in the earlier 2000's. The event would have still been reportable under 14 CFR 21.3, but I don't have easy access to the earlier information.

There is one that occured in August 2004 after an RTO for an unrelated event. This was also widely reported in the aviation press.



All 777 inflight shutdowns along with those for other ETOPS qualified airplanes are reported in the FAA ETOPS database. Engine shutdowns are recorded on the basis of airplane type and are recorded for all phases of flight. Statistics are complied for ETOPS and non-ETOPS versions of the same airplane type. For example, a shutdown on a non-ETOPS 757 is still counted in the ETOPS database.

The 777 engine shutdown rate is low enough to qualify for the proposed 330 min ETOPS regulations.
 
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zeke
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RE: How Is Singapore Doing On It's LAX-SIN-LAX Route?

Mon Sep 26, 2005 10:32 am

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 75):
An event on this date would have happened before the advent of COSP which began operation in the earlier 2000's. The event would have still been reportable under 14 CFR 21.3, but I don't have easy access to the earlier information.

You just lost all your credability, that data is available, it is also available for the other incidents.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001211X10543&key=1

NTSB Identification: DCA98WA064
Scheduled 14 CFR Part 129: Foreign operation of AIR FRANCE
Incident occurred Wednesday, July 01, 1998 in TENERIFE, Spain
Aircraft: Boeing 777, registration: UNK
Injuries: Unavailable
On July 1, 1998, an Air France Boeing 777 enroute from Sao Paulo, Brazil, to Paris, France, diverted into Tenerife (Canary Islands), Spain, because of an uncommanded engine shutdown.

Also loss of thrust control is not a reportable incident for ETOPS purposes, it is not an inflight shutdown.
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: How Is Singapore Doing On It's LAX-SIN-LAX Route?

Mon Sep 26, 2005 12:15 pm

Quoting Zeke (Reply 76):
You just lost all your credability, that data is available, it is also available for the other incidents.

Your creditability is what is in question here, not mine. You have described an event that is not traceable in any of the incident reporting systems. If it happened, where is the evidence? I suggest you put up or shut up.

I did not say that the Air France event data was not available, just that it was unavailable in COSP.

As for ETOPS reported events, all engine and major system related events are reportable. Therefore loss of thrust control is reportable. As such, the event you are talking about is reportable. Since that is the case, where is it?
 
N1120A
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RE: How Is Singapore Doing On It's LAX-SIN-LAX Route?

Mon Sep 26, 2005 12:46 pm

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 31):
I think saying that it is impossible to bring in enough in ticket sales to offset the problem of having a high CASM is a little extreme. I believe that the route still can be successful and be earning as much as other routes that have more competition.

The thing I was saying is that when all factors are taken into account, operating a 772ER on this route with a 1 way fuel stop is likely more profitable than the A345

Quoting LACA773 (Reply 38):
Other than the comparing the engine noise of the 345 vs 772, how is the service on this flight?

It is typical SQ

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 77):
I did not say that the Air France event data was not available, just that it was unavailable in COSP

That didn't say uncommanded 2 engine shutdown, just uncommanded shutdown
 
iberiadc852
Posts: 304
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RE: How Is Singapore Doing On It's LAX-SIN-LAX Route?

Mon Sep 26, 2005 6:09 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 48):
t's the A343 that is really quieter due to it's underpowered cigars. The 345/346 LOST the engine noise advantage, and thus had to resort to some expensive panel mounting to try and dampen noise and vibration

Possibly true the loss of engine noise advantage, but, I travelled both types several times and the panel mounting must be effective enough to revert the effect, because the 346 is really quieter that the 343

Quoting Zeke (Reply 76):
On July 1, 1998, an Air France Boeing 777 enroute from Sao Paulo, Brazil, to Paris, France, diverted into Tenerife (Canary Islands), Spain, because of an uncommanded engine shutdown.

I have a photo of that plane being repaired in TFS In a couple of days I will upload it.
 
Pieinthesky
Posts: 374
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RE: How Is Singapore Doing On It's LAX-SIN-LAX Route?

Mon Sep 26, 2005 11:01 pm

Trying to take this vaguely back on topic, SQ have been looking at extending the Raffles Class section on the A345.
 
spk
Posts: 431
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2001 1:56 am

RE: How Is Singapore Doing On It's LAX-SIN-LAX Rou

Mon Sep 26, 2005 11:34 pm

You guys need to consider the fact that, because it's a really long flight, the seat pitch must be extended. You can't compare CASM of a B772ER that is configured with normal 33 inches seat pitch to A345 with minimum of 37 inches seat pitch.

And even though the 772LR may be able to carry more weight, it is not likely that SQ can significantly benefit from that. Will they cram the seat pitch down from 37 inches? Nope. Will they configure it from 2-3-2 to 3-3-3 or even 2-4-2? No way. The extra weight capacity is not helping in the regard. So the limit to the number of seats is really the floor space and the passenger comfort factor, not the ability to uplift the weight. The only extra revenue can be generated from cargo, which may or may not be significant based on the market that the aircraft operates to.

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