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Slarty
Topic Author
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Quirky A380 Story

Wed Sep 28, 2005 12:32 am

Disgruntled employee or whistleblower?

"A Skeptic Under Pressure"

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-f...86292.story?coll=la-home-headlines
 
Toulouse
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Quirky A380 Story

Wed Sep 28, 2005 12:43 am

I really hope this is true. I cannot understand why Airbus would overlook a possible major safety feature like this, as I know very well how seriously they take safety. Regarding his dismissal from his company, if the man is telling the truth, it is awful.
If he is genuine, I feel so so sorry for the him and the struggle his children and wife are also being put through.
Long live Aer Lingus!
 
NAV20
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Quirky A380 Story

Wed Sep 28, 2005 12:45 am

Thanks, Slarty, interesting story.

I don't know what I think - except that he's no novice crank, he knows about chips and they hired him and moved him so he could work for them.

Just hope to hell that he isn't right.
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
NAV20
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Quirky A380 Story

Wed Sep 28, 2005 12:51 am

Toulouse, mate - if you don't edit 'is' in your first sentence to read 'isn't', while there's time, I think you might get quoted a bit. Unless 'is' is what you meant?  Smile
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
N79969
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Quirky A380 Story

Wed Sep 28, 2005 12:59 am

I would be curious to know the other side of the story. Maybe he is a disgruntled guy and trying to stick it to this company.

However the fact that he left Austria and then returned thus risking arrest and prison time is significant. He is not out for money since he is financially ruined.

I also hope that he is mistaken. But I further hope that Airbus is not letting the fear of another delay and additional costs influence their tolerance for taking risks.
 
NAV20
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Quirky A380 Story

Wed Sep 28, 2005 1:15 am

This paragraph has a melancholy and familiar ring - it seems always to be 'weight, weight, and weight again' where this aeroplane is concenred:-

"Airbus has acknowledged that its designers faced challenges as they attempted to reduce the A380's weight. Early on, the company elected to go with four outflow valves on the A380, with only one motor on each valve, which is slightly larger than a cabin window. Each motor uses a TTTech controller chip, and there is no manual override system."
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
Glareskin
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Quirky A380 Story

Wed Sep 28, 2005 1:17 am

Some intresting 'facts' in this article:

- The A380 tranports the double amount of pax as the 747 ?

- Airbus is owned by Dutch and British companies ?

If the rest of the article is as accurate as this it has zero value to me.  redflag 
There's still a long way to go before all the alliances deserve a star...
 
NAV20
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Quirky A380 Story

Wed Sep 28, 2005 1:20 am

Agree with you about the passenger numbers, Glareskin. But EADS is in fact a Dutch company, registered in Amsterdam.

Anyway, maybe the writer read Airbus' own publicity about '800 passengers'?

[Edited 2005-09-27 18:22:28]
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
pelican
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Quirky A380 Story

Wed Sep 28, 2005 1:22 am

Quoting Glareskin (Reply 6):
If the rest of the article is as accurate as this it has zero value to me

That's what the Journalist knows about Airbus- probably not much. But the question whether Mangan is right or not. I hope not, or that the flaw isn't that dramatic and can be easily solved.

pelican
 
N79969
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Quirky A380 Story

Wed Sep 28, 2005 1:29 am

Quoting Glareskin (Reply 6):
Some intresting 'facts' in this article:

- The A380 tranports the double amount of pax as the 747 ?

- Airbus is owned by Dutch and British companies ?

If the rest of the article is as accurate as this it has zero value to me.

The LA Times is obviously not a specialized aviation publication thus I think that relatively minor and immaterial errors in the general background information do not lessen the veracity of the actual story. If I understand Pelican correctly, I agree with him.

The LA Times is a well-respected, well-regarded newspaper.

[Edited 2005-09-27 18:34:13]
 
pelican
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Quirky A380 Story

Wed Sep 28, 2005 1:43 am

Quoting N79969 (Reply 9):
If I understand Pelican correctly, I agree with him.

Indeed, you did.

pelican
 
NAV20
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Quirky A380 Story

Wed Sep 28, 2005 1:44 am

"EADS N.V. is a Dutch company governed by the laws of The Netherlands – in particular, by Book 2 of the Dutch Civil Code – and by its Articles of Association. Since its shares are listed in France, Germany and Spain, it is also subject to various regulations which are set out in more detail in the Financial Statements and Corporate Governance – 2004 document, part of the EADS Annual Report 2004."

http://www.eads.com/frame/lang/en/10...F00000000400004/6/03/31000036.html

The journalist is better informed that Glareskin is, anyway. Why doesn't that surprise me?  Smile
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
Toulouse
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Quirky A380 Story

Wed Sep 28, 2005 1:46 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 3):
Toulouse, mate - if you don't edit 'is' in your first sentence to read 'isn't', while there's time, I think you might get quoted a bit. Unless 'is' is what you meant?

Thanks NAV20... but damn it's too late and I can't edit.

Attention, please all note that in my reply (reply 1), the first sentence SHOULD read...
"I really hope this IS NOT true".

Thanks all and apologies for the typo!!!!!
Long live Aer Lingus!
 
CV580Freak
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Quirky A380 Story

Wed Sep 28, 2005 2:00 am

LA Times , say's it all really  rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 
One day you are the pigeon, the next the statue ...
 
rabenschlag
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Quirky A380 Story

Wed Sep 28, 2005 2:07 am

weird article. while i find the story behind it somehow disturbing, i also was disturbed by the fact that a large part of the article is obviously designed to create empathy with mangan. why do we need to know the family story behind it? why must we learn about him being a baptist and his wife reading books about why god was letting this happen? the author also repeats and repeats that there are delays in the A380 program and that redesigning the chip would have been costly. also, linking rapid decompression to the helios crash is utter nonsense. the helios plane crashed because of a cascade of most weird things, but not BECAUSE of rapid decompression. all of this indirectly allegates TTT and airbus, but not based on relevant facts. for these reasons, i think the article is biased.

the relevant facts that come across are:
* employee claims that a microchip is faulty
* employer denies this
* employee continues to spread the message
* employee gets fired
* employee still continues to spread the message
* aviation authorities are aware of the case but wont comment
* the microchips will be used by airbus and boeing
 
Glareskin
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Quirky A380 Story

Wed Sep 28, 2005 2:09 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 11):
its shares are listed in France, Germany and Spain

Do I read The Netherlands or Great Britain?

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 11):
Why doesn't that surprise me?

Beats me, you are a fortune teller?

[Edited 2005-09-27 19:12:23]

[Edited 2005-09-27 19:13:44]
There's still a long way to go before all the alliances deserve a star...
 
NAV20
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Quirky A380 Story

Wed Sep 28, 2005 2:14 am

What the LA Times says, CV580Freak, is that the lives of everybody flying on an A380 are going to depend, minute by minute, on a pressurisation system that is dependent on a single valve actuation system, instead of the three usually employed.

And that that system will be controlled by just four chips which were originally designed by a single manufacturer for use in motorcars operating at ground level in normal temperatures, not aeroplanes flying at 35,000 feet at 30 below.

And that, on top of the system having none of the redundancies that are normally designed in, it will have no provision for manual override if it malfunctions.

You happy with all that?
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
Ken777
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Quirky A380 Story

Wed Sep 28, 2005 2:15 am

Airbus and TTTech are being rather dumb in how they are handling this guy and the problem he presents (both technically and personally). It may well be that they story is greater than the potential problem.

The first thing I see is that half the trial lawyers in the country are starting a file with this story - and drooling about the potential jury award. There is also going to at least a few lawyers that will "volunteer" to help at no charge in order to get their name in the papers.

Finally, at some point, the guy will get back to the US and there will be all sorts of lawyers ready to help him sue Airbus and TTTech - for a percentage. Neither company seems to realize how many lawyers there are in the US that love this type of story.

As for the potential problem - I hope it isn't really a problem, but it has now been put into public view to the point where Airbus is going to have to satisfy US regulators during the certification process.
 
Slarty
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Quirky A380 Story

Wed Sep 28, 2005 2:17 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 16):
What the LA Times says, CV580Freak, is that the lives of everybody flying on an A380 are going to depend, minute by minute, on a pressurisation system that is dependent on a single valve actuation system, instead of the three usually employed.

And that that system will be controlled by just four chips which were originally designed by a single manufacturer for use in motorcars operating at ground level in normal temperatures, not aeroplanes flying at 35,000 feet at 30 below.

And that, on top of the system having none of the redundancies that are normally designed in, it will have no provision for manual override if it malfunctions.

(Sarcastic humour on)

But it's going to be 65 KG lighter, and can fly 0.6 nm further!

(Sarcastic humour off)
 
N79969
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Quirky A380 Story

Wed Sep 28, 2005 2:22 am

Rabenschlag,

I see your point but disagree. While the article may seem one-sided, I think that can be largely attributed to tight-lippedness of TTTech and Airbus while Mangan has shared his story.

His personal circumstances, including financial ruin, voluntary return to a country where he could be arrested, family situation and so on are part of his entire story.
This guy has lost a lot and has more to lose yet he persists in his claim. As mentioned before, his background and formidable work experience brings him some credibility.

However if he is simply a disgruntled hack, TTTech and Airbus could and should present their side of the story rather than labelling him. I would bet the LA Times offered both companies more opportunity to comment than they actually partook.

Have they actually determined and released a report about the cause of the Helios crash? I am not aware.

[Edited 2005-09-27 19:25:27]
 
Okie
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Quirky A380 Story

Wed Sep 28, 2005 2:32 am

So do I see a parallel with another story going on at A.net at the same time.

Report: Concorde Program Head Under Investigation (by FlyingDove Sep 27 2005 in Civil Aviation)


It may take us 20 years to find out. Hmmm!

Okie
 
kellmark
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Quirky A380 Story

Wed Sep 28, 2005 2:39 am

To not have a manual over ride or backup system for the pressurization system seems to be folly at its worst. Especially when the chip design itself has not been certified properly for aviation.

I don't think that I will be too anxious to fly on this beast. And especially not put my family on it.
 
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Starlionblue
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Quirky A380 Story

Wed Sep 28, 2005 2:44 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 16):
What the LA Times says, CV580Freak, is that the lives of everybody flying on an A380 are going to depend, minute by minute, on a pressurisation system that is dependent on a single valve actuation system, instead of the three usually employed.

And that that system will be controlled by just four chips which were originally designed by a single manufacturer for use in motorcars operating at ground level in normal temperatures, not aeroplanes flying at 35,000 feet at 30 below.

And that, on top of the system having none of the redundancies that are normally designed in, it will have no provision for manual override if it malfunctions.

You happy with all that?

When you put it that way, I'm not happy with it. But wouldn't the FAA and JAA notice when certifying the design that there is a redundancy problem?
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
NAV20
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Quirky A380 Story

Wed Sep 28, 2005 2:53 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 22):
But wouldn't the FAA and JAA notice when certifying the design that there is a redundancy problem?

Good question, Starlionblue. But I expect that the inspectors are underpaid and overworked - and refusing to certify an entire aeroplane (on what would appear to the administrators to be an obscure technical query) would be a helluva dangerous career step for them.

I don't think we should rely on the inspectors. As far as I'm concerned, with aeroplanes containing literally millions of parts, the buck stops with the manufacturer.

On the face of it, surely no engineer in his right mind could or would design a system that lives depend on that way?
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
Maersk737
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Quirky A380 Story

Wed Sep 28, 2005 2:56 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 22):
When you put it that way, I'm not happy with it. But wouldn't the FAA and JAA notice when certifying the design that there is a redundancy problem?

Nope...They don't read LA Times  Wink

Cheers

Peter
I'm not proud to be a Viking, just thankfull
 
dhefty
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Quirky A380 Story

Wed Sep 28, 2005 3:00 am

I haven't seen anyone dispute the logical conclusions that NAV20 (Reply 16) has expressed. If correct, these facts should make us all take note of a potentially catastrophic design defect. If I were Airbus, and if the information were wrong, I would immediately publish a correction, since this could be picked up by the mass media, to the detriment of further A380 orders. In fact, it could jeapordize existing orders as well, many of which are apparently somewhat soft. So far, we haven't really heard the other side of the story.
 
petertenthije
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Quirky A380 Story

Wed Sep 28, 2005 3:00 am

Quoting Glareskin (Reply 6):
- Airbus is owned by Dutch and British companies ?

If the rest of the article is as accurate as this it has zero value to me.

Technically that is correct. Airbus is owned by BAe (British) and EADS (Dutch). Of course EADS is Duth in name only. Just for tax reasons.

http://www.eads.net/frame/lang/en/80...F00000000400004/4/84/31032844.html
Attamottamotta!
 
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garpd
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Quirky A380 Story

Wed Sep 28, 2005 3:04 am

Why are some doubting the legitmacy of this story based purely on the name of the newspaper that has printed it?

Do they not have anything else to do but try to discredit a story by simply intimating that because the publisher originates in the US the story must therefor be false or bloated?
arpdesign.wordpress.com
 
RichardPrice
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Quirky A380 Story

Wed Sep 28, 2005 3:12 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 17):
Airbus and TTTech are being rather dumb in how they are handling this guy and the problem he presents (both technically and personally). It may well be that they story is greater than the potential problem.

Now, Im not sure how Airbus are actually being demonised in the article, it does have the comment 'But he is baffled by the extent to which Airbus and TTTech have "gone after" Mangan' in it, but it doesnt actually mention HOW Airbus have 'gone after' him, just that his former employers have taken action. How is Airbus to blame for how TTTech are handling the case?

Secondly he claims that the problem is that the valve control chips behave unpredictably when sent certain data, well this is true of a lot of computer systems - send garbage data and you get garbage response. THe fix could be as trivial as ensuring that only a tight subset of commands and data is sent to the chip, and on a closed system this is trivially easy to do. TTTech may be 100% correct in saying that there isnt a problem because that functionality of the chip might not ever be used by airlines (since the chip started life as a car part).

He says that the European aerospace industry is whitewashing his claims because of the huge savings, but later on in the article is says the difference between this solution and normal solutions is only $480, which on an airliner is not exactly huge. If there was any hint of a problem with this solution, no aircraft manufacturer in the world would risk the enormous cost of recall and replacement when the part only saves a couple of thousand on the entire airframe.
 
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Starlionblue
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Quirky A380 Story

Wed Sep 28, 2005 3:17 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 23):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 22):
But wouldn't the FAA and JAA notice when certifying the design that there is a redundancy problem?

Good question, Starlionblue. But I expect that the inspectors are underpaid and overworked - and refusing to certify an entire aeroplane (on what would appear to the administrators to be an obscure technical query) would be a helluva dangerous career step for them.

Point well taken.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Braniff727
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Quirky A380 Story

Wed Sep 28, 2005 3:18 am

That is an interesting story. I am concerned about the seemingly lack of redundancy of the pressurization system as described in the article. I certainly hope that the article doesn't have all the facts in that regard.

What I do find interesting is how in Austria the laws side with the company, not with the employee in this case. Here in the USA we are accused of corporate welfare, and looking out for big business, yet we would be protecting the employee in this case.

In the end, I just hope that this perceived problem turns out to be nothing at all, or fixed before the first passenger flight.
Climbing
 
Bobster2
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Quirky A380 Story

Wed Sep 28, 2005 3:21 am

The story was first reported in the Wall Street Journal, April 28, 2005. You can read a preview but the full article costs $4.95.

http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/wsj/acce...irbus+Software+Feud+Lands+in+Court

I googled Joseph Mangan and Airbus hoping to find his blog. I found nothing other than the WSJ article.

[Edited 2005-09-27 20:23:17]
"I tell you this, no eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn." Jim Morrison
 
RichardPrice
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Quirky A380 Story

Wed Sep 28, 2005 3:22 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 16):
What the LA Times says, CV580Freak, is that the lives of everybody flying on an A380 are going to depend, minute by minute, on a pressurisation system that is dependent on a single valve actuation system, instead of the three usually employed.

From what I understand from the valve system on the A380, there will be double the number of valves than on any other aircraft and the A380s valves will be smaller, so if one fails it wont be as detrimental to the pressurisation system as it would if one fails on any other jet. The pressurisation system itself should be able to maintain pressure within the cabin in the event of a single valve failure, with a double or triple valve failure forcing a descent.

That is what I have learnt from an Airbus engineer, but take it as you will.

Quote:

And that that system will be controlled by just four chips which were originally designed by a single manufacturer for use in motorcars operating at ground level in normal temperatures, not aeroplanes flying at 35,000 feet at 30 below.

One operating environment is pretty much similiar to another, when it comes to computer code and microprocessors - if you write the code, it shouldnt matter where its executed, just so long as it is the environment expected by the computer. Oh, and computers on board aircraft are invariably within the pressurised and heated section of the aircraft, and if they arent then they are hardened. They dont just take them off a production line somewhere, send one to a car maker and one to a aircraft maker.

My washing machine employs the same microprocessor as my first 16bit computer, should I be worried that it will do something it shouldnt or fail just because its not being used in the same environment it was origionally designed for?

Quote:

And that, on top of the system having none of the redundancies that are normally designed in, it will have no provision for manual override if it malfunctions.

I do agree with this, but the thought comes to mind that theres an auwful lot on modern aircraft that dont have manual overrides today that was all manual yesterday.
 
NAV20
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Quirky A380 Story

Wed Sep 28, 2005 3:30 am

RichardPrice, the possibility of the chips malfunctioning is only part of the problem - not even the main part. The other problems, as claimed in the article, are:-

1. Normal practice is apparently to use three motors per valve assembly, and Airbus are only using one.

2. Three chips are normally used per motor, each made by different manufacturers. Again, Airbus is only using one.

3. All systems hitherto have featured manual override. Airbus aren't providing it.

If all that is so, I would suspect that the underlying 'driving force' is to keep the numbers of electric motors down - because they contain magnets, they're heavy. All the extra wiring harnesses would be heavy, too.

However, as others have said, we have to bear in mind that the story could be just plain wrong. Maybe the A380 systems are the same as those on other aeroplanes, and the guy is just a nut with an axe to grind. But, if that's the truth of it, it seems very significant that Airbus haven't just flatly denied the story.
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
Okie
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RE: Quirky A380 Story:

Wed Sep 28, 2005 3:35 am

Redundancy I see as one issue.
DC-10 hydraulic line fuses, 737 rudder, MD-80 ballnut for elevator come to mind. Single point failure.

Weight is an issue.
Only one actuator and wiring per valve. I am sure the failure parameters will be of only one of the four outflow valves failing and if the pressurization system can still maintain a safe cabin pressure.

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 28):
Secondly he claims that the problem is that the valve control chips behave unpredictably when sent certain data, well this is true of a lot of computer systems - send garbage data and you get garbage response. THe fix could be as trivial as ensuring that only a tight subset of commands and data is sent to the chip, and on a closed system this is trivially easy to do. TTTech may be 100% correct in saying that there isnt a problem because that functionality of the chip might not ever be used by airlines (since the chip started life as a car part).

Since we do not have a whole lot of information is does bring up some dicey issues. Hopefully not tombstone engineering to address the problem at a later date.

Okie
 
RichardPrice
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RE: Quirky A380 Story:

Wed Sep 28, 2005 3:42 am

I agree with all three points NAV20, you make them well. Im erring on the side that this bloke has an axe to grind, as TTTech are providing a microprocessor, not a solution so he wouldnt really have the full grasp of the environment or manner in which Airbus will be using the chip. I havent been able to get any more information out of my friend other than they will be using 4 valves and hte loss of one isnt detrimental, but I think that on a part as simple as this, Airbus would strive for commonality across its fleet as much as possible.

It could be that there are only 4 valves and 4 motors and 4 chips, but they could be setup in such a manner that it requires all of them working together to do anything at all. With proper coding the problem posed here, that of unpredictable behaviour, wouldnt be a problem as it would require 4 seperate and distinct computers to reach the same conclusion and send the same data, and thats easy to avoid.

I dont program in an aerospace environment, but I can easily see how this isnt a problem from the coding side of it all.
 
birdbrainz
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RE: Quirky A380 Story:

Wed Sep 28, 2005 3:49 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 7):
Anyway, maybe the writer read Airbus' own publicity about '800 passengers'?

Agreed. If I'm not mistaken, the A380 is going to have its evacuation tests done with 873 pax. Therefore, saying that the A380 is an 800-seat airplane isn't wrong. I would agree that "up to 800 seats" would be better, though.

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 28):
...but it doesnt actually mention HOW Airbus have 'gone after' him, just that his former employers have taken action.

I see your point. It doesn't specifically mention how Airbus went after him. I do know that writers are told not to exceed a certain length when writing articles, so maybe it was omitted from the article on those grounds. Either that, or the managing editor cut it out.

Btw, I'm hoping this isn't going to turn into another A vs. B war. If Boeing was building the plane, Boeing would get tarnished just as much as Airbus is here, and rightfully so.

Actually, I don't think Airbus is going to be tarnished much at all. This story seems a lot like Lance Armstrong's doping allegations. At least at this point it does.
A good landing is one you can walk away from. A great landing is if the aircraft can be flown again.
 
odafz
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RE: Quirky A380 Story:

Wed Sep 28, 2005 3:49 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 29):
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 23):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 22):
But wouldn't the FAA and JAA notice when certifying the design that there is a redundancy problem?

Good question, Starlionblue. But I expect that the inspectors are underpaid and overworked - and refusing to certify an entire aeroplane (on what would appear to the administrators to be an obscure technical query) would be a helluva dangerous career step for them.

.

I hope the FAA inspectors will go beyond that "helluva dangerous career step" when certifying both the A380 and B787. I am sure you would not like me and others to drag the FAA (and the JAA) to justice if they failed in their duties. Would you?
Of course, given your past, you are pretty sure that Boeing will deliver a flwaless and airworthy aircraft , but I am certainly doubting now since they are overworked and underpaid that they will deliver a trustworthy certificate.

So shall we recall all the certificate of airworthiness of ALL American (and european) aircrafts because " FAA inspectors are too overworked and underpaid". Gosh that a serious lack of professionalism.

I am sure that the Australian authorities will be glad to take over, don't they?
 
blrsea
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RE: Quirky A380 Story

Wed Sep 28, 2005 3:52 am

Why didn't the engineer come back to US and then inform the FAA? That way, he could have taken care of whistleblower laws of US while ensuring that the safety concerns of the aircraft were addressed.
 
RichardPrice
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RE: Quirky A380 Story

Wed Sep 28, 2005 4:11 am

Quoting Blrsea (Reply 38):
Why didn't the engineer come back to US and then inform the FAA? That way, he could have taken care of whistleblower laws of US while ensuring that the safety concerns of the aircraft were addressed.

Because as far as I can tell, the Whistle Blower laws dont apply because Airbus hasnt done anything illegal or criminal yet, since the aircraft is undergoing type testing and the laws require that the employer is doing something illegal - the chip was under testing, and the aircraft it was being tested for was still under development and in those circumstances a potentially faulty design is not illegal until it has been type passed and in general use. Also the authorities need to be informed, you dont gain protection from just 'outing' the problem on a web page for example.

Also, a US law does not protect the person involved from laws in other countries, so he could still be fined or a warranted sworn for his arrest as he has a residence in Austria.
 
stirling
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RE: Quirky A380 Story

Wed Sep 28, 2005 4:20 am

Other than Mangan saying:
"...flaws in a microprocessor could cause the valves that maintain cabin pressure on the A380 to accidentally open during flight, allowing air to leak out so rapidly that everyone aboard could lose consciousness within seconds...",
We really don't know anything, of substance.

Unfortunately, the LA Times is an excellent newspaper, for the general public....has this story surfaced in aviation/aerospace publications that might offer a more thorough analysis?

The human drama, while tedious for us propeller heads, is understandable for a non-aviation inclined person; just remember the audience of the Times.

TTTech supplies parts to Hamilton Sundstrand, a United Technologies Corp. unit that is building the A380's cabin-pressurization system. "The matters raised by Mr. Mangan have been thoroughly reviewed," a Hamilton Sundstrand spokeswoman said, "and safety of flight will be assured."

I'd like to know their findings.
Note: Safety "Has Not" been assured, but rather "Will Be" Assured.
Does this insinuate a defect has surfaced, and changes are occurring?
What has been Mangan's claim, (in technical terms, beyond just "they won't work")
What was the Hamilton-Sundstrand rebuttal?

Bottom line, I think there is a problem.
It provides the motivation for everyone involved to go apeshit like they have.
If this guy was just a disgruntled former employee, why go to such extreme measures?
But, as it were, they seem to be hauling out some pretty big guns to swat down a little ol' fly.....

This story is nowhere complete.

We all know the aircraft has a weight problem.
This issue seems to stem from an objective to save weight.
How many other short-cuts have been undertaken in this pursuit?

The public is deserving of a complete review and disclosure.

[Edited 2005-09-27 21:26:31]
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Glareskin
Posts: 1014
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 9:35 pm

RE: Quirky A380 Story

Wed Sep 28, 2005 4:23 am

Quoting Birdbrainz (Reply 36):
If I'm not mistaken, the A380 is going to have its evacuation tests done with 873 pax

Correct, but still it isn't double since the 747 actually is flying with 500 plus pax (i.e. Corsair, Japanese high density domestic routes).
There's still a long way to go before all the alliances deserve a star...
 
stirling
Posts: 3897
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2004 2:00 am

RE: Quirky A380 Story

Wed Sep 28, 2005 4:33 am

Found this on a GOOGLE.
Letter from Mangan to Airbus.
Some technical stuff I do not understand, insight?

Link: Letter

From:
joseph mangan

To:
[email protected]

Cc:
[email protected]

Subject:
Criminal Activity of Obstruction EASA - Airbus discovery of TTTech A380 CPCS Certification Data Package non compliance to CRI F09

Date:
Oct 6, 2004 11:44 PM

Attachments:
2004_09_29_telephone_meeting.doc




From: joseph mangan

Sent:
Oct 6, 2004

1:23 PM



To: [email protected]


Subject: Criminal Activity of Obstruction Airbus - EASA discovery of TTTech A380


CPCS Certification Data Package details





Mr. Botho Zichner.


I have reported this information to the EASA director's office, however, I am concerned


that you and Mr.


Claude Espinat of the DGA|CEAT may not yet be aware of this information.


You may remember that I brought up the fact that TTTech's and Nord Micro's documents


do not comply with CRI F09 in your audit at our facility.


My firm was not happy with my having disclosed this, and has since conspired with


Nord Micro, to prevent your further efforts to discover the issues with the Certification


Data Package for the Device - Microcode - and Nord Micro claimed use of the device


as a 'SIMPLE' testable device under the CRI and DO-254, when in fact it is a complex


device.


The evidence of this conspiracy is contained in the enclosed attachment.


TTTech have, since becoming aware of my notification of EASA, terminated my employment.


I am concerned that the EASA are not moving fast enough to prevent the possibility


of destruction of evidence. As TTTech have poor archiving and file access controls


in place to prevent tampering with additional evidence.


As you will see, I attempted on Friday to contact Mr. Claude Espinat of the DGA|CEAT referred


to in the email. I left a voice message, but have not been contacted back.


Please get in contact with him to determine if he is aware of this activity.


Thanks for your efforts.


Joe Mangan




Vienna



Austria




Phone Number.


069910446552


Country code is 43








::EASA Director Notification Email
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RichardPrice
Posts: 4474
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2005 5:12 am

RE: Quirky A380 Story

Wed Sep 28, 2005 4:34 am

Quoting Stirling (Reply 40):
Note: Safety "Has Not" been assured, but rather "Will Be" Assured.

Probably because the final system hasnt yet been completed, its still undergoing development and refinement - and it will do right up until the day it needs to under go certification. The first commercial delivery is over a year away, plenty of time for changes in a system.


Quoting Stirling (Reply 40):
If this guy was just a disgruntled former employee, why go to such extreme measures?

Because one disgruntled former employee making claims like these in a business as volatile and safety concious as the aerospace indsutry can do a hell of a lot of damage, regardless if the claims are true or not. Mud tends to stick, whether its deserved or not, and claims that a companies products are faulty and lifethreatening can do a huge amount of damage both financially and in the public perception of a company.

A good story comes to mind that I was told when I took my Health and Hygiene certification a few years back. A wedding caterers was forced out of business when a wedding party they supplied food to all came down with Ecoli food poisoning. Of course, the food standards agency stepped in and took away samples etc, but by the end of the week the caterers had had all their bookings cancelled, couldnt pay any staff and eventually had to declare bankruptcy.

The cause of the poisoning? The mother in law shaking hands with everyone on entry to the banquet hall. She had it, and after that so did everyone else. Food was perfect. By the time this was found out, the damage to the caterers reputation had been done.

Those that say 'Theres no such thing as Bad Press' have never experienced bad press.
 
RichardPrice
Posts: 4474
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2005 5:12 am

RE: Quirky A380 Story

Wed Sep 28, 2005 4:38 am

Quoting Stirling (Reply 42):
Found this on a GOOGLE.

If this letter is true, then to be honest it makes it sound as if Airbus was prevented from discovering the truth as well.
 
N79969
Posts: 6605
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2002 1:43 am

RE: Quirky A380 Story

Wed Sep 28, 2005 4:40 am

Quoting Glareskin (Reply 41):
Correct, but still it isn't double since the 747 actually is flying with 500 plus pax (i.e. Corsair, Japanese high density domestic routes).

Glareskin,

The LA Times is not trying to achieve mathematical precision in providing background information on the A380. That level of accuracy is simply unnecessary for an article about a whistleblower meant for the general public.

Nor do they actually need to pick the outlier aircraft that you cite to make a true assertion. The vast majority of 747s are not flown by Corsair nor are they 747SR/744D. In that context, the writer was not far off.

The bottom line is that your criticism of the journalism in this thread is really pointless. The real issue is whether this person is believable or not and whether there may be a potential cover-up as he asserts.

Personally I think (and hope) Airbus is not stupid enough to take a risk like he is suggesting. Airbus has a tremendous amount at stake here should there ever be (God forbid) an accident. However, I do not think his complaints should be blithely dismissed as he has some real credentials and has sacrificed personally to make his point.
 
AMSSFO
Posts: 912
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 8:42 am

RE: Quirky A380 Story

Wed Sep 28, 2005 4:46 am

Strange and a little disturbing story. Would like to know the other site's view.

Quoting Bobster2 (Reply 31):
The story was first reported in the Wall Street Journal, April 28, 2005. You can read a preview but the full article costs $4.95.

You can read the full article here (for free):
http://webreprints.djreprints.com/1223170776962.html
There is one german article:
http://www.wirtschaftsblatt.at/cgi-bin/page.pl?id=401128
Reliable source? I really don't know.
Wh would the LA Times pick it up right now?

Quoting Bobster2 (Reply 31):
I googled Joseph Mangan and Airbus hoping to find his blog. I found nothing other than the WSJ article.

Googled Mangan and TTTech and found this which seems to be Mangan's site:
http://www.eaawatch.net/index.html
Haven't had time to read it.
 
RichardPrice
Posts: 4474
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2005 5:12 am

RE: Quirky A380 Story

Wed Sep 28, 2005 4:56 am

If that is his site, then it actually seems like he has an agenda, and a not so hidden one at that. I havent read such a bias heavy report since the British Government release the report surrounding the Iraq war evidence.

Nuff said really!
 
Glareskin
Posts: 1014
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 9:35 pm

RE: Quirky A380 Story

Wed Sep 28, 2005 4:57 am

Quoting N79969 (Reply 45):
The bottom line is that your criticism of the journalism in this thread is really pointless.

Ofcourse there is no relevance as there is no relevance for this thread! Do you really think Airbus would bring an unsafe 'double size 747' in service?
There's still a long way to go before all the alliances deserve a star...
 
Bobster2
Posts: 1523
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 3:04 am

RE: Quirky A380 Story

Wed Sep 28, 2005 5:07 am

Quoting AMSSFO (Reply 47):

Quoting Bobster2 (Reply 31):
I googled Joseph Mangan and Airbus hoping to find his blog. I found nothing other than the WSJ article.

Googled Mangan and TTTech and found this which seems to be Mangan's site:

Thank you. I actually used A9 for my search and A9 uses Google. For some reason A9 screwed up and completely missed the link that you got on Google.
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