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FlyGuyClt
Topic Author
Posts: 1579
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 10:23 pm

Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Sun Oct 02, 2005 4:47 am

I could not hold my keyboard anymore. Some on here seem to think that Flight Attendants should only make $12,000 a year or so to subsidize their cheap fares. Well folks. When is the last time you flew? I mean really. In an airplane? Not your broom or an altered state. You can't even eat on $12,000 a year. NOW, keep in mind. As a flight attendant you have:

15 hour Duty Days-8 hour layovers. (So, it is hotel or airport food) It is not like you can save money buy hitting a super market. And don't give me this stuff of take food with you. Some trips are 5 days long or more. That would be mission impossible. This is not a complaint of the job. Just a fact.

Weather you choose to use your mind or not is your issue. But Flight Attendants are good for quite a lot. If you "aviation" enthusiast would wake up. You can see it all around you.

- Ever seen the espisode of "Airline" on A&E where the gentleman and his family met the SWA Flight Attendant who saved his life during his heart attack?

- Uli Derickson the TWA Flight Attendant credited with saving many lives during a high jacking in the 80's. Here is a link. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uli_Derickson

-Kelly Duncan Moore, the Air Florida Flight Attendant who saved lives in the Potomac River. Here is a link.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/07/11/cnn25.tan.moore/

-The Air France Crew in Toronto. (enough said on that one).

Here is a link to what the U.S. Government says a Flight Attendant is.

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos171.htm

Here is a link that credits American Airlines Flight Attendants Actions to thwart the "Shoe Bomber" Richard Ried. Lives Saved.

http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101020909/aattendants.html

A humorous look from two former F/A's.

http://www.bootsnall.com/tk/jul01stewardess.shtml


If you can think of more "FACTS" just add them up. I am puzzled. The facts show how Flight Attendants can ideed be a great resource of survival. Why are so many people attacking them?

I have been a Flight Attendant for 19 years with 3 different airlines. I still have a passion for what I do. I still take the "job" with all its treasures and it's B.S. I don't complain for the most part. I am amazed at all the facts around people. The History of the job, the events that do happen from time to time, yet still people want to lift their leg and let loose on us? Are we perfect? NO Are we human? Yes. Should some of us not be doing the job? You Bet. But this notion of trying to live on $12,000 a year while trying to survive around the world is some of the most expensive cities. When some of you need to just wake up and try to be a little less hateful. What you really need to understand is this. EVERYONE is a member of Anet. I am posting my opinion just as you have. Would I be this in your face at work? HECK no, when you are on an airplane I am working. The rules are different. But we flight attendants pay to be here just like you. So get used to us. The next time someone says something about Flight Attendants just being worthless. Could you please enlighten us as to what you do for a living? What have you done to make this world a better place. Flight Attendants are not the top of the food chain. But I have seen my actions and the actions of my collegues really make someones day. Bring some sunshine in when all else has gone wrong. Flight Attendants take children all over the world to be with their loved ones. Take the time on board with those kids to ensure that are not afraid and taken care of. We jump in action anytime something happens. Weather is be basic first aid, or organize an evacuation, or deal with the one who has had to many and is being a pain in the .....We carry troops all over the world. We welcome many people home. We take people to family reunions, to funerals, to whatever. We usually read our customers needs and honor special needs. I have taken elderly to the bathroom mid flight. Not a problem. I hope someone takes care of me when I can't get around. We care for children when the parents need a break. We listen to a customer going home to bury a loved one. We take the time. It is not all attitude and F.A.R.'s or safety. It is much much more. Too bad some of you can't see the joys it can bring to many peoples lives. Including those of us who still love what we do.

Safe Flying  

[Edited 2005-10-01 22:14:39]
Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
 
dtwclipper
Posts: 6668
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2003 3:17 am

RE: Flight Attendant Facts.

Sun Oct 02, 2005 4:52 am

I don't know what to say, other then I am in firm agreement with you 100%.
Compare New York Air, the Airline that works for your Business
 
legacy135
Posts: 966
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 11:06 pm

RE: Flight Attendant Facts.

Sun Oct 02, 2005 5:21 am

I would like to thank you very much, bringing it to the point. It is 100% the truth! I tried that already so many times but there are people in the a.net which just don't want to face the facts. I am glad to see that there are still some people around as you who now what it means to be an aircrew member.

Most shocking is when I can read posts from other aviators telling us how easy the F/A's live was. I know both sides and to all who don't want to believe it, but the F/A's job is harder than the pilots one! I remember working long range as an F/A, this meant going ZRH-JFK by foot! Now as a Captain, I fly from Switzerland to Brazil and still feel good enough to go out after the flight. This is the difference and this is the truth!

To all real aviators my very best regards for a nice weekend,

Cheers
Legacy135 Wink
 
utapao
Posts: 546
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 10:19 pm

RE: Flight Attendant Facts.

Sun Oct 02, 2005 5:35 am

FlyGuyClt -

You points have merit. And anyone who thinks flight attendants are just waiters/waitresses are just being stupid.

However, like many other things in this world, salary boils down to supply demand. When there is a gluttany of people in the nursing profession (just an example), salaries for new employees would be down. When there is a scarcity of people available, people will see higher salaries. From a strictly non-emotional, bare-bones business perspective, most airlines have tens of thousands of applications on file for the F/A position. That, for one thing, weakens the argument for higher salary. Whether deserved or not, the market doesn't support it. I don't think anyone would expect a F/A to work for $12K per year. But when then hear the significantly higher salaries of senior crew members, it makes John Doe say "dang"! Does a senior person deserve more? Sure. But don't forget. John Doe doesn't hear the $20,000 salaries, they hear about the $60,000. And they don't hear about regional pilots making $20,000...they hear about the $250,000. Unions do not get the right message out to the public.

And the public in general will struggle with the the work schedule. Remember that all the guy on the street focuses on is hearing some flight attendant works 60-hours a month (or whatever) when that guy may be working that much per week. I've said over and over again, if the Unions want any support from the general public they need to get a marketing department to get the right information out to the public.

And finally, the five day trips, sleeping in hotels, away from families. That is indeed a horrible way of life after you've done it for a while. But many traveling business people do the same thing (myself included) and again, without a better way to portray that to the public, it's not a big sympathy getter in the business world. And the one comment I hear over and over again when I hear discussions about this with non-airline people is "didn't you know this when you took the job"? I understand the answer, but the public wouldn't.

I think bottom line is it boils down to the economics of the industry now vs. the past will dictate complete and total changes in the workplace. It has happened in many, many, many industries already. And the individuals who have not been affected by layoffs already will just have to make a decision at some point as to whether the stress of everything you've listed justifies the good aspects of the job. There has always been a lot of emotion regarding airlines, and it makes it very difficult to look at it coldly as "just another business". Telecoms, software firms, and dozens of other industries have already gone through what the airline employees are facing. There are a lot of departments in my organization that now have 3 people doing the same work that 6-8 used to. And I have a choice to stay or seek a more attractive situation.

I hope you understand my comments are not meant to be argumentative, but just looking at it from 'the outside'. I was with a major American carrier for years and years, and now in another industry, fortunately. However, "The grass ain't necessarily greener".

I fly about 150,000 miles a year and always look forward to having a crew member on my flights with the passion for the job you seem to have. Just this week had two of the best flights I've had in months on AA. Neither F/A did anything extraordinary... the service was not necessarily any better than any other flight recently. I had a soft drink and declined the meal service both directions. I'm easy to take care of! The thing I noticed on both flights was the genuine (hopefully) smile of both attendants and their efficient but friendly manner. They seemed to have a quick, kind word for everyone they interacted with. And had there been a need to demonstrate the skills for which they are truly trained, I'm fairly certain they would have performed them well.

Good Luck!

Utapao
Sawasdee khrab!
 
rage323machine
Posts: 78
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 3:41 am

RE: Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Sun Oct 02, 2005 5:36 am

FLYGUYCLT

Well said!, I stand right by your side!
 
legendDC9
Posts: 458
Joined: Sun Nov 21, 2004 9:24 am

RE: Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Sun Oct 02, 2005 5:39 am

$12k a year is a joke, so is 18k, 20k or 30k for the flight attendant job. It is much more difficult and involved than anyone not in the industry realizes. It is due to that fact however, that it has been devalued, just like every other position in the industry, pilots, tech folks, ramp and so on. The fact is that there are people willing to accept a rediculously low pay for this position and and this market that we live in, if you can find someone to do your job for less, your job will be in danger. You are then forced to either change you career or adapt to this very low pay. The work groups have lost all ability to fight it anymore.
 
FlyGuyClt
Topic Author
Posts: 1579
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 10:23 pm

RE: Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Sun Oct 02, 2005 5:46 am

More Links to History and Facts:

USAir DC9. Crash. Charlotte, NC.

http://www.casa.gov.au/fsa/1998/nov/dc9crash.pdfhttp

Congresswoman Kay Bailey Hutchison's comments on Flight Attendants.

http://hutchison.senate.gov/speec247.htm

More Info: A very insightfull link.

http://homepage.mac.com/lesposen/ibl...g/B80495344/C840540124/E966447527/

The After 9/11 Flight Attendant:

http://starbulletin.com/2002/08/20/features/story1.html

Flight Attendants and the escaped "Betty Ford Patient"

http://www.elliott.org/ask/2001/crbooze.htm

Safe Flying  

[Edited 2005-10-01 22:59:41]
Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
 
FlyGuyClt
Topic Author
Posts: 1579
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 10:23 pm

RE: Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Sun Oct 02, 2005 5:52 am

Quoting Utapao (Reply 3):
And the public in general will struggle with the the work schedule. Remember that all the guy on the street focuses on is hearing some flight attendant works 60-hours a month (or whatever) when that guy may be working that much per week. I've said over and over again, if the Unions want any support from the general public they need to get a marketing department to get the right information out to the public.

I fly 90 hours a month. But what most people don't understand is this.

1. It takes me over 320 hours "away from base" to get that number. (Not complaining one bit)

2. Flight Attendants "hours" don't start until the door is closed. The "hours" stop when the door is opened.

3. Duty days can last up to 14 hours domestically. Over 20 hours Internationally. Remember. A delayed flight at the gate is not part of "hours."

Quoting Utapao (Reply 3):
And finally, the five day trips, sleeping in hotels, away from families. That is indeed a horrible way of life after you've done it for a while. But many traveling business people do the same thing (myself included) and again, without a better way to portray that to the public, it's not a big sympathy getter in the business world. And the one comment I hear over and over again when I hear discussions about this with non-airline people is "didn't you know this when you took the job"? I understand the answer, but the public wouldn't.

I never complained about this fact. It is part of the job and I knew it from day 1.

Quoting Utapao (Reply 3):
I hope you understand my comments are not meant to be argumentative, but just looking at it from 'the outside'. I was with a major American carrier for years and years, and now in another industry, fortunately. However, "The grass ain't necessarily greener".

Thank You for your honest and constructive dialogue.

Safe Flying  Smile
Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
 
Gilligan
Posts: 1993
Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 12:15 pm

RE: Flight Attendant Facts.

Sun Oct 02, 2005 5:59 am

Quoting FlyGuyClt (Thread starter):
15 hour Duty Days-8 hour layovers. (So, it is hotel or airport food) It is not like you can save money buy hitting a super market.

I thought that's why they were given a per diem.

Quoting FlyGuyClt (Thread starter):
The facts show how Flight Attendants can ideed be a great resource of survival.

I have not seen anyone here say they are not.

Quoting FlyGuyClt (Thread starter):
Would I be this in your face at work?

The problem resides with those F/A's that are, and they are out there.

Quoting FlyGuyClt (Thread starter):
What have you done to make this world a better place.

Common, F/A's make the world a better place? There's a stretch. Perhaps some F/A's make some flights a little more enjoyable, but making the world a better place? Ok Miss Utah, if you could be in charge of the world for a day.....

Quoting FlyGuyClt (Thread starter):
Flight Attendants are not the top of the food chain.

But so many of them act as if they are.

As to the rest of your post, don't the pilots also help take people places? Don't the gate agents help with children, parents, the ederly, and special needs as well? Don't the Res and Gate agents have to put up with angry customers too? When a customer has to be removed from an aircraft who does it, the F/A or the gate agent? And then who has to deal with that customer as the plane taxis away? Your post speaks to the problem many have with some F/A's, they act as if it were not for them the whole airline would collapse in a heap and that they are some how irreplacable. I work in a hub operations department and I can tell you that if I have a delay that involves a F/A I know that I'm in for a knock down drag out. I've had F/A's call at the last minute saying they were short X amount of meals. After catering comes out and shows them that they do indeed have a correct count I've had their supervisors try and tell me that catering must have somehow "hid" the meals on board. I've had them call and say they were short just exactly the amount of bottles of water that equaled the amount of F/A's on board, and refuse to let the gate agent close the door till they got those bottles. Yet we're trying to save some money. There is an airline where every work group, except the F/A's, has taken a pay cut and been living with it for 6 months now. Is a F/A worth more than 12k? Sure they are. But the amount of training that goes into becoming a F/A is not so tremendous that it is worth 100k either. I'm not saying the job is a cake walk, F/A's can get seriously hurt or killed, but then so can the pilots and rampers. Plenty of customers have had heart attacks on the concourse and I'm sure more than a few have been saved by alert gate supervisors. What I'm saying is that it is supposed to be a team effort but unfortunately experience has shown that too many times the F/A's think they are absolutely right and will stamp their feet for as long as it takes until you agree with them.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
isitsafenow
Posts: 3413
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2004 9:22 am

RE: Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Sun Oct 02, 2005 6:02 am

FLYGUYCLT...not to pick an arguement with you but your post is trying to make us believe that a F A has such a tough job and you have to deal with differant situations every day. So do a lot of jobs out here. $12 thou a year is poverty in the USA so lets raise your sites to realistic $35thou a year. That is a descent wage for an FA and I dont think there will be much rebuttal to that. Its not a low wage and its not a great wage but its descend. You can survive and pay bills one that. Oh, dont forget the bennies too. Your employeer is paying your medical insurance tab each month and thats a killer alone. I send Blue Cross a check every month for my employees and every year it goes up about 16 per cent.
But I feel they are worth it.
Your other statement I will challange is.."what do YOU do for a living....what do you do to make this a better place"?
I will challange your occupation with a hospital RN.....overworked, stressed out and taking crap from Docs, ward clerks, supervisors and patients and their families. Some of them work two 8 hour shifts back to back, take 8 hours off and come right back for another 8 to 12 hours shift. They aren't changing spark plugs on a 99 Chevy here. They are tinkering around with human bodies and fatigue does play a major role...just a tad more than fatigue of a flight attendent, ok? Hospital R.N.s are in short supply. Airline F.A.'s...there's a glut.
If you walk off, your company will think NOTHING of replacing you tomorrow and you know it.
F.A's do have a unique job but its just not what you are hinting to us. I worked for three majors in my past in three different aspects of the industry. I know the airline ropes and knew a few F.A's as well....

I don't want a war here. I just don't agree with SOME of your statement, thats all.
safe
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
 
FlyGuyClt
Topic Author
Posts: 1579
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 10:23 pm

RE: Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Sun Oct 02, 2005 6:06 am

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 8):
Common, F/A's make the world a better place? There's a stretch. Perhaps some F/A's make some flights a little more enjoyable, but making the world a better place? Ok Miss Utah, if you could be in charge of the world for a day.....

Please read closely. I never claimed that Flight Attendants did. What I am saying is that the people on here who say such nasty things, what have they done.

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 8):
But so many of them act as if they are.

Please take it up with the individual. The world would be a better place if we did not stero type.

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 8):
As to the rest of your post, don't the pilots also help take people places? Don't the gate agents help with children, parents, the ederly, and special needs as well? Don't the Res and Gate agents have to put up with angry customers too? When a customer has to be removed from an aircraft who does it, the F/A or the gate agent? And then who has to deal with that customer as the plane taxis away? Your post speaks to the problem many have with some F/A's, they act as if it were not for them the whole airline would collapse in a heap and that they are some how irreplacable. I work in a hub operations department and I can tell you that if I have a delay that involves a F/A I know that I'm in for a knock down drag out. I've had F/A's call at the last minute saying they were short X amount of meals. After catering comes out and shows them that they do indeed have a correct count I've had their supervisors try and tell me that catering must have somehow "hid" the meals on board. I've had them call and say they were short just exactly the amount of bottles of water that equaled the amount of F/A's on board, and refuse to let the gate agent close the door till they got those bottles. Yet we're trying to save some money. There is an airline where every work group, except the F/A's, has taken a pay cut and been living with it for 6 months now. Is a F/A worth more than 12k? Sure they are. But the amount of training that goes into becoming a F/A is not so tremendous that it is worth 100k either. I'm not saying the job is a cake walk, F/A's can get seriously hurt or killed, but then so can the pilots and rampers. Plenty of customers have had heart attacks on the concourse and I'm sure more than a few have been saved by alert gate supervisors. What I'm saying is that it is supposed to be a team effort but unfortunately experience has shown that too many times the F/A's think they are absolutely right and will stamp their feet for as long as it takes until you agree with them.

My post was strictly in reaction to so many threads of hate lately about cabin crew. EVERY airline employee is part of a "team."

Who said it was worth $100K a year? I certainly did not.

As stated in my posts. Flight Attedants are human and not perfect. So what is the comment about stamping the feet?

Safe Flying  Smile
Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
 
FlyGuyClt
Topic Author
Posts: 1579
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 10:23 pm

RE: Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Sun Oct 02, 2005 6:12 am

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 9):
Your other statement I will challange is.."what do YOU do for a living....what do you do to make this a better place"?
I will challange your occupation with a hospital RN.....overworked, stressed out and taking crap from Docs, ward clerks, supervisors and patients and their families. Some of them work two 8 hour shifts back to back, take 8 hours off and come right back for another 8 to 12 hours shift. They aren't changing spark plugs on a 99 Chevy here. They are tinkering around with human bodies and fatigue does play a major role...just a tad more than fatigue of a flight attendent, ok? Hospital R.N.s are in short supply. Airline F.A.'s...there's a glut.
If you walk off, your company will think NOTHING of replacing you tomorrow and you know it.
F.A's do have a unique job but its just not what you are hinting to us. I worked for three majors in my past in three different aspects of the industry. I know the airline ropes and knew a few F.A's as well....

That was in reply to "some" who are unbelievably nasty with replies like. "Worthless" on some other threads. Period.

Never said Flight Attendants were the end all. How did the nurse things get brought into this?

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 9):
Oh, dont forget the bennies too. Your employer is paying your medical insurance tab each month and that's a killer alone. I send Blue Cross a check every month for my employees and every year it goes up about 16 per cent.
But I feel they are worth it.

Do you pay 100% of that cost? Airlines no longer are. I again, never complained about the bennies.

I am glad you are a good employer and appreciate your assets. Kudos.

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 9):
don't want a war here. I just don't agree with SOME of your statement, thats all.
safe

No armor required. This is a dialogue. Thanks for your opinions in good faith.

Safe Flying  Smile
Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
 
HOMER71
Posts: 2142
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2001 10:56 pm

RE: Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Sun Oct 02, 2005 6:14 am

So...are you boycotting Flightplan ?

Just wondering...  Wink
"On spaceship earth there are no passengers...only crew."
 
FlyGuyClt
Topic Author
Posts: 1579
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 10:23 pm

RE: Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Sun Oct 02, 2005 6:15 am

My father raised me with the simple fact that: If it is at the Movies or on TV it is entertainment and probibly not like actual life. I myself will go. However, if I like the movie or not would be another thing.

Safe Flying  Smile
Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
 
Gilligan
Posts: 1993
Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 12:15 pm

RE: Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Sun Oct 02, 2005 6:16 am

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 9):
They aren't changing spark plugs on a 99 Chevy

Wow, I'm getting old, when did it change from a '64 Chevy?  cry 
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
legacy135
Posts: 966
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 11:06 pm

RE: Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Sun Oct 02, 2005 6:29 am

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 8):
Quoting FlyGuyClt (Thread starter):
What have you done to make this world a better place.

Common, F/A's make the world a better place? There's a stretch. Perhaps some F/A's make some flights a little more enjoyable, but making the world a better place? Ok Miss Utah, if you could be in charge of the world for a day.....

Please Gilligan, if each one of us would do his/her job right, the world would definitely be a better place!
Flying on airlines is not really the most funny and pleasant way to spend it's time. Having good F/A's make this part absolutely a better world. We live in a society that needs an effort of each single individual. The F/A's one is a big one and makes absolutely part of it.
 
utapao
Posts: 546
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 10:19 pm

RE: Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Sun Oct 02, 2005 6:30 am

Quoting FlyGuyClt (Reply 7):
I fly 90 hours a month. But what most people don't understand is this.

1. It takes me over 320 hours "away from base" to get that number. (Not complaining one bit)

2. Flight Attendants "hours" don't start until the door is closed. The "hours" stop when the door is opened.

3. Duty days can last up to 14 hours domestically. Over 20 hours Internationally. Remember. A delayed flight at the gate is not part of "hours."

FlyGuyClt -

These are exactly the kinds of points that do NOT get made when the publicity mills start churning during strikes, negotiations, etc. And the union side of nearly everything I read talks more of the "demand side" and doesn't get the human side across (a bit generalized comment, but I think you see what I mean).

Find a way to get that kind of information to the masses and at least you'll have a lot more flyers understanding your cause!

Be safe --
Sawasdee khrab!
 
Gilligan
Posts: 1993
Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 12:15 pm

RE: Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Sun Oct 02, 2005 6:31 am

Quoting FlyGuyClt (Thread starter):
The next time someone says something about Flight Attendants just being worthless. Could you please enlighten us as to what you do for a living? What have you done to make this world a better place.



Quoting FlyGuyClt (Reply 10):
Please read closely. I never claimed that Flight Attendants did. What I am saying is that the people on here who say such nasty things, what have they done.

From the top quote the implication was pretty clear to me.

Quoting FlyGuyClt (Reply 10):
Who said it was worth $100K a year? I certainly did not.

OK, let's go with the 35k figure from another post. That sounds about fair.

Quoting FlyGuyClt (Reply 10):
As stated in my posts. Flight Attedants are human and not perfect. So what is the comment about stamping the feet?

It's called using a metaphor. Some F/A's will refuse to even consider compromise. It just is not in their nature and I'm not talking about issues of saftey.

Quoting FlyGuyClt (Reply 10):
Please take it up with the individual. The world would be a better place if we did not stero type.

I don't believe I sterotyped at all since I never said "All" or "everyone". There is certainly more than one F/A that acts in the manner I have described and I think a lot of posters here would agree with that.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
Gilligan
Posts: 1993
Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 12:15 pm

RE: Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Sun Oct 02, 2005 6:35 am

Quoting Legacy135 (Reply 15):
The F/A's one is a big one and makes absolutely part of it.

I would say to you that the pilots or the mechanics is a much bigger one than any F/A. I can deal with a bad F/A, a bad pilot or mechanic can put me in serious jeparody.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
legacy135
Posts: 966
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 11:06 pm

RE: Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Sun Oct 02, 2005 7:00 am

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 18):
I would say to you that the pilots or the mechanics is a much bigger one than any F/A. I can deal with a bad F/A, a bad pilot or mechanic can put me in serious jeparody

As I said, every single individual has it's part to play and to do this job the best possible way. By the way, remember the AF340 in Toronto. This plane was certainly not driven in the ditch by the F/A's, but it was thanks to the F/A's that everybody got out alive !
 
FlyGuyClt
Topic Author
Posts: 1579
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 10:23 pm

RE: Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Sun Oct 02, 2005 8:08 am

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 18):
I would say to you that the pilots or the mechanics is a much bigger one than any F/A. I can deal with a bad F/A, a bad pilot or mechanic can put me in serious jeparody.

And as a Anet member you are more than welcome, as you know to start a thread about those workers. This thread was about Flight Attendants and their accomplishments. I have taken the time to add serveral links for "facts" and give everyone as much info as possible to back up what I was saying. Yes, the Flight Attendant role is not the "end all in aviation" but I was speaking about this group of people only. I was in no way discounting the excellent contributions of other aviation professionals.

Safe Flying  Smile
Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
 
SR 103
Posts: 1621
Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2000 6:19 am

RE: Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Sun Oct 02, 2005 11:00 am

FlyGuyClt,

Great thread and I think you made some very valid points. Flight Attendants certainly carry a lot of responsibility and should be treated with respect and paid appropriately.

Having spent many hours in the galley having conversations with your co-workers, I hear first hand how the job can take its toll on you guys. However I have seen first hand some of the miracles your co-workers are capable of performing from bringing a man back to life with your CPR training or keeping the entire plane calm as we dump fuel over the Ocean so we can perform a flawless emergency landing.

My hats off to you!

SR 103
 
Trolley Dolley
Posts: 548
Joined: Sat Jul 29, 2000 1:57 pm

RE: Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Sun Oct 02, 2005 11:55 am

With all due respect, it should be noted that US ATA stats, the average F/A earnings were USD32.73 per hour. This was the highest in the hospitality business, and the 45th highest per hourly rate of occupantions in the USA. Yes the hours might start and stop according to whether the doors are armed or not, but the hourly rates reflect this fact. There are many other jobs that don't pay by the hours that are worked.

I am not arguing with the important safely role that F/A's play. I've seen them in action help a doctor deliver a baby across the aisle from me on a BA flight.
However, my friends and I have had to deal with things like coming across severely injured people in a car accident, performing CPR on people, assist with medical conditions like fits and diabetic issues or helping extinguish fires in the general course of life. Many of the challenges faced by F/A's are not unique to the airline environment.

As for the challenges that a travelling lifestyle places on the home life? Again, they are not unique to airline crew, they affect business travellers, those in government service or the military.

From what I gathered talking to cabin crew around the world is that the pay and conditions are appropriate for the nature of the job. It is hard, physically demanding work. It is repetitive work too. However, in many cases the pay is above average when compared to other workers in similar lines of work.

It's my honest opinion that flight crew are not the "space waitresses" that the public perceives, but they are not the "liberty defending quasi-heros/heroines" that many a.netters like to portray those who work in the profession as either.

Serious question. Is the issue the pay rates, or the way the way the pay rates are applied? Could the airlines not move to a flat salary base, scrapping hourly rates and alowances to even out the money for those who do work, while removing the variable costs for the company? Wouldn't this also give crew better financial stability as they know what the'll be getting each month?
 
FA4UA
Posts: 777
Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2003 6:26 pm

RE: Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Sun Oct 02, 2005 12:01 pm

Quoting Utapao (Reply 3):
However, like many other things in this world, salary boils down to supply demand.

EXACTLY!

It's not an issue of merit or worth, it's simply cold economics. When there's so many people that would give anything to be a FA and see the world for free, why should the market pay what it used to? Even in this post-9/11 world, there's still THOUSANDS out there that would love to have my job and would do it for 33% less than me.

If I learned anything in my six years flying as an international FA it's that the current reality is the career flight attendant is a soon to be extinct. (IMHO) The job is hard on your body (especially now that most carriers have staff flying 100 hrs a month) and the pay is NEVER going to be as it used to be. The economics are just not there. With all the overcapacity in the US market and the outrageous spike in fuel costs, both short term and long term prospects are not great for the industry pay as a whole. Cost containment is the only way to play this game which means lower wages indefinitely.

Flight attendants hired in the present tense will likely be young people (like me when I started- fresh out of college) who want to travel the world for free, or people who don't need the income (i.e.. have dual income households).

I myself have had an amazing 6 years, have traveled the world, lived abroad, flown hundreds of thousands of miles in Business and First for pennies, and have grown as an individual. I've seen things people would only dream of and I'm all the wiser for it. With that in mind it's my hope to be leaving my chosen profession in the next two months for the corporate world to use my degree in Finance and make the money that all my peers are making.

It's been real!
FA4UA
The debate continues... Starwood or Hyatt... which is better
 
Bohlman
Posts: 263
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 11:52 pm

RE: Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Sun Oct 02, 2005 12:12 pm

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 18):
I would say to you that the pilots or the mechanics is a much bigger one than any F/A. I can deal with a bad F/A, a bad pilot or mechanic can put me in serious jeparody.

Speaking as a pilot, I'll agree that pilots and mechanics play a big role in safety, but most people, wrongly, underestimate the role of F/As. In an emergency landing situation, the quality of the F/As work can indeed make the difference between life and death for a good deal of the lives on board. The majority of forced/emergency landings are survivable, meaning that most deaths after the airplane lands are due to fire. The fuselage is designed to keep out fire for 90 seconds, and most fire support units at major airports are designed to give the people on board an additional ~3 minutes to get everybody off. The skill of the cabin crew can indeed make the difference between life and death in situations like these.

I certainly give any and all airport employees (whether they be maintenance, customer service reps, pilots, F/As, cleaning crews, etc) my utmost respect for the difficult job they do, with very little appreciation from the general public (pilots? They earn $300k a year to work 15 hours a week! F/As? They fly anywhere they want to for free! Mechanics? They don't even have to use original thought, they just tinker with machines using diagrams! Etc).
I'm not pro-Boeing or pro-Airbus, I'm pro-crew all the way.
 
mandala499
Posts: 6593
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Sun Oct 02, 2005 12:40 pm

I know what you mean. I guess many A.net members have progressed from being the talk-all no-sense armchair airline CEOs... but many are still or progressed to the armchair so-called-expert-in-aviation in the same category as those ignorant-so-called-expert-in-aviation in some media that rant and chant just about anything silly or ignorant about aviation.

And the public in general will struggle with the the work schedule. Remember that all the guy on the street focuses on is hearing some flight attendant works 60-hours a month (or whatever) when that guy may be working that much per week. I've said over and over again, if the Unions want any support from the general public they need to get a marketing department to get the right information out to the public.

In my days as a different type of "aircrew/line management", I had a different schedule and a different task, 100hr weeks total duty was nothing to raise my health concern, but now, I'm married to an F/A (short haul) and I still struggle to keep up with her scheduling demands.

Arrive home at 8 to 10pm (after she left the house 12 - 14hrs earlier), only for her to wake up at 3am to get ready, make sure she eats before she leaves, and I wait outside my door to wait for her company transport (at least she gets that) to pick her up at 4 - 5am, so they don't press the wrong doorbell and wake everyone up... and that's if they turn up in time, sometime they turn up at 5-15am for her 6 o'clock flight and I have to be ready to drive her to the airport just in case transport screws up (welcome to a country where you can be fired for expecting your transport to arrive on time). Oh, yes she'll be scheduled to arrive back home at 3pm, but delays and all that 25% of the time she can come in at 8pm again...

All that for US$200 a month salary... annual or quarterly contracts, random inspections my the DGAC (1 wrong answer to a safety question can end up loosing your job, and 1 wrong answer from a colleague can yield the same result).

60 flying hours a month does not mean they work only 60 hrs. What do they do in the turnarounds? Assist cleaners in cleaning the plane (sometime even janitorial duties), check the lifevests (yes, All of them) at the end of each flight, they're the ones checking how many safety cards us enthusiasts take out after the flight. Plan galley stocks, reconcile the skyshop at the end of everyflight, check the emergency equipment every flight, and yes, the manual safety demo  Smile every flight.

We're not talking about 60 hrs a month of continuous levels of work like a construction worker (Constant intensity, look at how much some of them make an hour), or your junkfood franchise employee cooking/serving customers on 12 hr days... These 60 hrs a month end up as 60hrs FLYING DUTY and 45 - 90 hours of DUTY time (where it does get stressful!), included in the 60hrs are 15hrs of take off/landings where you have to be alert even if it's the nearing the end of your 18hr duty day) plus 15hrs of galley preparation/cleanup.

Oh that means what? getting paid for 60 hours standing up?
No, it means 30hrs standing up while flying serving meals/drinks/snacks on EVERY flight, 15hrs sitting down in alert, and 45 - 90hrs standing up, preparing meals 15hrs bla bla bla....

High oil prices, competition, applications from furloughed F/As, inflation, cost-cutting and pressure for the company to increase service for a lower cost base...

Some companies have ended up paying a maximum of 350 USD a month take home pay for the F/As here on 90hr flying and 180hr duty months... Sure this is Indonesia... but do you want to press your country's F/A salaries to that level on western costs of living? (Costs of living in Jakarta ain't that cheap anymore either... and that's without going to a cafe every week)...

How many of you fly on aircraft without flight attendants? Did you enjoy it? Would you feel safe if the PIC then goes "oh-oh, we got trouble" and there's no F/A? As part of my safety training on non-F/A flights, pax teamwork is crucial... now imagine 100 pax on a 737 and the captain says "oh-oh, we got trouble" and no F/A? Would you trust the pax sitting next to you more than if you had an F/A on board?

Why do I say this? Coz if this continues, eventually, you might aswell have no F/As onboard!

Now, how about pilots who "sit around and push buttons" for 60hrs a month? Would you want your pilot to only hearn 12,000 bucks a year? Hey guess what... some pilots are already forced to take <24k a year!

I thought that's why they were given a per diem.

In Indonesia, meals in hotels or airports are expensive... your meal allowance doesn't buy you a steak! It buys you fried rice, meat and vegies only! Heck even the burgers at the airport cost more than your meal allowance!

I have not seen anyone here say they are not.

Go and look in other threads mate...

There's a stretch. Perhaps some F/A's make some flights a little more enjoyable, but making the world a better place?

OK, wanna be in a full 737 with no F/As?

But so many of them act as if they are.
But are they on top of the food chain? Fact: NO.

don't the pilots also help take people places?
Take what places? Count the lifevests/clean the galley/prepare for meal uploads/calm nervous pax/deal with a bunch of drunken pax? No, their job is to fly the plane safely... while on the ground? Prepare loadsheets, set the plane up for departure, fuel planning etc etc etc... They're also busy enough as they are.

Don't the gate agents help with children, parents, the ederly, and special needs as well?
Yes, from check in to sending them off on arrival... But hang on, they gotto be on board an aircraft in the air somewhere between checking in and leaving the destination airport!

I work in a hub operations department and I can tell you that if I have a delay that involves a F/A I know that I'm in for a knock down drag out.

Here, they'd get fired before the next monday for that!
Everyone has their job, and it all needs teamwork. F/As can let everyone down in breakdown of teamwork, so can everyone else.

I'm not saying the job is a cake walk, F/A's can get seriously hurt or killed, but then so can the pilots and rampers.
Don't we just wish the average Joe on the street understand that?  Smile

the F/A's think they are absolutely right and will stamp their feet for as long as it takes until you agree with them.

Those types shouldn't be on the job!

So...are you boycotting Flightplan ?
Deciding not to go is one thing, but being told to boycott it is something else...

Find a way to get that kind of information to the masses and at least you'll have a lot more flyers understanding your cause!

Oh boy, many have tried... to no avail... it's just not SENSATIONAL enough! The masses will only care about the 2 extreme ends... the bottom end getting unfair treatment, the top end indulging in greed/self glutony... Anything inbetween gets ignored largely... So, the public only hear it when you get F/As with ridiculously high or low pay...  Sad

Oh well, the joys of life.

Great thread guys, I just wish more people would understand... not necessarily agree... but just understand...

Enough of my weekend rants, I gotto clean the damn house up before she comes home from a killer 3 day trip (the worst on the airline's schedule)... Looong sunday  Smile

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
CO767FA
Posts: 388
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 1:45 am

RE: Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Sun Oct 02, 2005 12:52 pm

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 8):
I thought that's why they were given a per diem.

You missed the point, Gilligan  Yeah sure

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 8):
But so many of them act as if they are.

And how is that exclusive to F/A's? Are you saying G/A, Rampers and other employees are "stuck-up" free????  confused 

Quoting FlyGuyClt (Reply 7):
As to the rest of your post, don't the pilots also help take people places? Don't the gate agents help with children, parents, the ederly, and special needs as well? Don't the Res and Gate agents have to put up with angry customers too? When a customer has to be removed from an aircraft who does it, the F/A or the gate agent? And then who has to deal with that customer as the plane taxis away?

Pilots=Locked Behind a re-enforced door
G/A (Parents, Kids, Elderly)= Yes, but not usually for hours and hours
RES= Two words...DIAL TONE
G/A (Angry)= Put them on the plane and let the F/A's deal with them!
G/A (Removal)= Wrong...The Flight Crew determines removal, the agent just deals with the aftermath (whew...glad that's not me...) eek 
Plane Taxis Away.....Agent often walks away and expects customer to go to customer service center.

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 8):
After catering comes out and shows them that they do indeed have a correct count I've had their supervisors try and tell me that catering must have somehow "hid" the meals on board. I've had them call and say they were short just exactly the amount of bottles of water that equaled the amount of F/A's on board, and refuse to let the gate agent close the door till they got those bottles.

Really, I've also seen the opposite to happen. The F/A communicates the missing items and low-and-behold....they are right! Water, your butt is on the ground and can decide whether you want fresh spring water or chemically treated water. We are in a tube, where cabin pressure makes it very dry and water (as many of you request) is the best for curing that dry mouth.

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 8):
There is an airline where every work group, except the F/A's, has taken a pay cut and been living with it for 6 months now.

And whose fault is that????? CO agents had the opportunity to unionize, but the didn't. F/A's are not the reason your angry; you are angry at Larry and company, because he misled you. He said it was an all or nothing deal, but then had a back door agreement with the union leaders (Pilots, Mechanics and Dispatchers) that allowed the cuts to be implemented. Stop blaming the F/A's.

Did you know about the "pay-cuts" F/A's took after 9/11? How about the fact that we aren't paid until the wheels start moving???? So, we come to work 1.5hrs, before departure and until the plane starts to move from the gate; we don't get a dime! Can you say the same? In between flights, when you are sitting around shooting the sh*t, are you getting paid? How would you like it if you weren't? You might work a holiday, but you still have the chance of getting off work and being with your family, we don't. We go to a hotel and have a can of tuna!

Quote:
Is a F/A worth more than 12k? Sure they are. But the amount of training that goes into becoming a F/A is not so tremendous that it is worth 100k either.

 Yeah sure Show me one "living" F/A making this amount of money? Given that we are the first line of defense with terrorist/other nut case, we should be given "combat" pay.

 coffee 
 
FlyGuyClt
Topic Author
Posts: 1579
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 10:23 pm

RE: Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Sun Oct 02, 2005 12:57 pm

Quoting Co767fa (Reply 26):
Did you know about the "pay-cuts" F/A's took after 9/11? How about the fact that we aren't paid until the wheels start moving???? So, we come to work 1.5hrs, before departure and until the plane starts to move from the gate; we don't get a dime! Can you say the same? In between flights, when you are sitting around shooting the sh*t, are you getting paid? How would you like it if you weren't? You might work a holiday, but you still have the chance of getting off work and being with your family, we don't. We go to a hotel and have a can of tuna!

I just love your humor !

Safe Flying  Smile
Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
 
mandala499
Posts: 6593
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Sun Oct 02, 2005 1:02 pm

We go to a hotel and have a can of tuna!
Pay is so cr4p that that's what I have when she gets home oh, I had a can of tuna she left behind last night! LOL

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
Pomnath
Posts: 384
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2005 6:55 am

RE: Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Sun Oct 02, 2005 1:18 pm

People who break stones for a livelihood in any country work 15 hours a day for a pittance, and those of us who drive on the roads they built or the houses they constructed never really "appreciate" their labour.

But that's not the point.

F/A or otherwise, you do your job becase you need to, and because you like it. Factor in both, please, and don't treat the Economy Class passenger as some sort of lower human than the one sitting in the front. Sure, one pays 200 dollars and the other pays 2000 dollars, but that is more for the pre-flight service as well as space and some amount of frills.

But the attitude by FAs towards passengers and their rational needs as well as needs born out of fear or cultural differences or simple lack of knolwedge or high expectations, need to be common across the aircraft.

That's my 2 paisa worth.
Sea to Sky, Racists should Die!!
 
FlyGuyClt
Topic Author
Posts: 1579
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 10:23 pm

RE: Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Sun Oct 02, 2005 1:30 pm

Quoting Pomnath (Reply 29):
F/A or otherwise, you do your job becase you need to, and because you like it. Factor in both, please, and don't treat the Economy Class passenger as some sort of lower human than the one sitting in the front. Sure, one pays 200 dollars and the other pays 2000 dollars, but that is more for the pre-flight service as well as space and some amount of frills.

Who has said ANYTHING about treating passengers without respect and service?

Quoting Pomnath (Reply 29):
But the attitude by FAs towards passengers and their rational needs as well as needs born out of fear or cultural differences or simple lack of knolwedge or high expectations, need to be common across the aircraft.

I fly India all the time. The best compliment in the world for me is when an Indian Customer shakes my hand on the way off the airplane and thanks me.

Safe Flying  Smile
Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
 
GOAQ
Posts: 31
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2005 9:09 am

RE: Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Sun Oct 02, 2005 1:49 pm

Right to the point FlyGuyCLT. Proud of you for posting this. All the people who responded negatively on this post are the ones that STILL do not realize the importance of this job. And although $12,000 is a low figure, IT IS TRUE!!! NW F/As may need to take a huge paycut soon and the figures I have seen would put them the lowest paid in the industry with the lowest starting or moving down to $17,000. The last I checked, $17,000 a year can't buy a whole lot of stuff. Probably get paid more working at Target or something.

Good for you FlyGuyCLT. I support your post 100%. And to those who feel otherwise, well................it's probably not worth my time to say.

goodnight
 
Pomnath
Posts: 384
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2005 6:55 am

RE: Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Sun Oct 02, 2005 1:56 pm

Flyguycllt, I like your line about customers shaking your hand when they disembark. You are correct, too many of us passengers stream off the plane immersed in our own thoughts about racing through immigration, setting up the contacts waiting outside or the taxies, thinking about what happened in the world in the last 8-10 hours, and so on and so forth.

I usually present cabin crew on my flights with small tokens of gratitude, usually a company present like a leather key-chain with an Indian motif or a small piece of brass artware, but never shook hands because the concept of shaking hands with women especially is kind of slightly alien to us, and with men, well, I never thought of it.

I am grateful to you for this.

By the way, off-topic, have you flown domestic within India as a passenger? What do you think of cabin crew here?
Sea to Sky, Racists should Die!!
 
FlyGuyClt
Topic Author
Posts: 1579
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 10:23 pm

RE: Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Sun Oct 02, 2005 1:59 pm

Quoting Pomnath (Reply 32):
By the way, off-topic, have you flown domestic within India as a passenger? What do you think of cabin crew here?

No I have not, so it would be wrong of me to comment. I can say the India Crews I work with are great.

Safe Flying  Smile
Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
 
Whataboutme
Posts: 122
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 5:21 am

RE: Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Sun Oct 02, 2005 2:11 pm

FlyGuyCLT all I have to say is AMEN.. You are 100% correct. Lets work on getting me recalled.. HE HE HE... I miss the job I love and what I wouldn't give to have that back
Peace Out
 
WJA737
Posts: 45
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 3:41 pm

RE: Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Sun Oct 02, 2005 3:02 pm

Well said. Thanks for pointing out the truth.

WJA 737
 
jetboy319
Posts: 231
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2005 2:41 pm

RE: Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Sun Oct 02, 2005 3:08 pm

FlyGuyClt - Thanks for making our voice heard. I couldn't agree with you more. As a flight attendant myself, I accept the fact that there are things about the job the general public will not understand. Nor do I expect them to. I love the job I do, and I do it well. It is unfortunate that there seems to be a lack of respect given to flight attendants these days, but if you take a minute and just listen to what these people are saying, you will find that they are truly ignorant people not worth the time of day. They make up the minority, but compensate with a loud voice. When I hear comments such as referring to flight attendants as "Glorified Servers," instead of becoming offended, I realize that on the majority of flights, that's all a passenger sees. I also know the truth - We are much more than that. Someone's uneducated opinion doesn't phase me in the least simply because I don't let it. It is not worth it to me. I don't know about all of you, but I perfectly happy getting by with serving drinks and snacks instead of evacuating in an emergency, performing CPR for 2 hours straight, dealing with sick UM's etc.. I also know that the most ignorant ones (who really seem to be making quite an appearance on this site lately), will be the ones that will need to fully rely on their flight attendants in an emergency (Can anyone say "Negative-Shock?").
 
Sheraboam
Posts: 17
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2005 3:48 pm

RE: Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Sun Oct 02, 2005 4:23 pm

FlyGuyClt,

Awesome, very informative post...................but You forgot a few things, holding the hand of a terrified flyer and extending your knowledge of flight to ease their fear, cleaning up vomit after a brutal turbulence spell, and My experience tonight, after the media and the jet blue issue I was in the 319 and we had a missed approach, I was in the back, F/A C watching the cabin, almost every head went looking for a crew member I was on the horn immediately The pilots are busy flying the plane, we are the experienced communication until they finish their checklist talk to ATC and get back on approach, so many unplanned issues with this job that we are trained for, and those of us whom have passed and are required to do recurrent every yr are always thinking ahead ALWAYS . I have been in this profession for 3 yrs and I made 18k last yr, barely enough to support myself and my 2 children.

If no doc on board, WHO is going to deliver the baby, give CPR, Know how to work an AED, give first aid AND plan an evac. Sorry, but IM tired of being called a "drink slinger" If that's all I ever have to do, well, I could do that bartending and make more money. This gets in your blood and belive or not we have compassion and have been highly trained in emergency situations. FlyGuyClt, welcome to my respected users list, Great post !
 
ETStar
Posts: 1850
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2004 6:25 am

RE: Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Sun Oct 02, 2005 5:35 pm

FlyGuyClt, thank you for bringing up this issue. Anyone's acceptance or insistence of $12000 as being an appropriate wage for F/As is ridiculous, and I do not wish for anyone to make a living on that kind of money. But I will have to generally disagree with you on your other points.

You almost sound as if the FA position is to be likened to that of paramedics and firefighters. Yes, while they may be the true heros, there are many other heroic acts that were performed in similar fashions as on airplanes: trains crash, their attendants help; a woman is in labour in a restaurant and gives birth there, and the waitress helped; this woman's purse was once snatched in the streets, and a shoe shine boy ran and caught the thief, and returned her purse, saving her lots of money; teachers and daycare folks take care of kinds _every day_ and ensure their safety, and educate them; etc etc and not all of them make $20000.

You are making it sound as if FAs are the only heroes in the world, and give us a list of reasons of things that any person who is courteous enough and not heavily self-centred would be expected to do in any trade, any job, any place. You are not the only one a grieving person deals with on the way to bury a loved one, or a child meets as an unacompanied minor,

If you do not like the pay for an FA, or being on 15 hour work duty, or the particulars of the job, you can always opt not to work as one. While you were not complaining about this aspect, you should be reminded of other jobs that require long hours, nasty working conditions et al that could be as bad if not worse than being an FA.

I personally have seen FA service deteriorate, and have been flying for over 20 years now. I remember the old days of more attentiveness, fun, and personal service. Nowadays, I wonder if it would be right or wrong to ask for a drink. I vividly remember the look and attitude I got when I asked an FA if there was a place I could hang my coat (was flying Econ), or the yelling FAs, or even one who had the nerve of saying "folks, this crew has had a long day and we would appreciate your assistance in quickly clearing the aisle." <- now if I said that to a client, would prolly get a bitch slap from a boss or two...
 
jafa39
Posts: 4320
Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2005 2:14 pm

RE: Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Sun Oct 02, 2005 6:16 pm

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 1):
I don't know what to say, other then I am in firm agreement with you 100%.

Agreed and for the record all FA's have my full support in any pay claim they make, I even understand when they are sometimes a bit "shirty" as dealing with the public is a crap way to spend your day and will get to you at some point.

Hooray for frontline workers everywhere!

Jafa
We, the undersigned, do hereby consent.....
 
TinkerBelle
Posts: 1436
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2005 7:46 am

RE: Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Sun Oct 02, 2005 6:21 pm

Quoting Pomnath (Reply 32):
but never shook hands because the concept of shaking hands with women especially is kind of slightly alien to us

What exactly do you mean by this???

Very well put FlyGuyclt and Co767fa. I never really looked at it from your perspective but it does sound like a tough job.

Regards,

Mike
If you are going through hell, keep going.
 
jush
Posts: 1495
Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2005 2:10 am

RE: Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Sun Oct 02, 2005 6:27 pm

I don't like how you have written this thread and i think it is rather pathetic. BUT i agree on the fact that you have to earn more than 12k § a year. 12k $ a
year is really not much and can't pay your bills at all.
And i hope something like that is not done to achieve better flight fares.


Regards
jush
There is one problem with airbus. Though their products are engineering marvels they lack passion, completely.
 
Pomnath
Posts: 384
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2005 6:55 am

RE: Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Sun Oct 02, 2005 6:54 pm

Jafa39, what I mean exactly by this is that as an Indian man, I find the concept of exchanging greetings with women as being different from exchanging greetings with men.

Nothing sexist, just the way it is. I would probably fold my hands together in a "namaste" and bow respectfully to a woman I don't know. . . while I would shake hands with a man even if I didn't know him.

That's all.
Sea to Sky, Racists should Die!!
 
777klm
Posts: 555
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2005 12:23 am

RE: Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Sun Oct 02, 2005 7:02 pm

I know a few flight attendants working for KLM, and I have to say that I have a lot of respect for flightattendants!
Wel spoken FlyGuyClt!
Home airport: AMS
Next flight: CNX - BKK
 
IL76TD
Posts: 280
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 1:02 am

RE: Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Sun Oct 02, 2005 7:59 pm

At the end of the day:

1) It's a rather unskilled profession. Did you go to college and study 'flight attendentry'. No, most likely, the company you first worked for made all the investment in your training. The nurse example was a great one, a nurse, in 99% of the cases: went to school specifically training and being educated as a nurse, at his/her own expense. A nurse saves lives, everyday, as part of what she does. A flight attendent saving lives is heroic, but it isn't what they are paid to do for years.

2) Like all unskilled professions with 'on the job' training included, there is an almost unlimited supply of candidates. How many people in the US make less than 12,000 per year?

3) Flight Attendents, no matter the experience or natural talent, holds very little value in the 'non-flight attendant' job market. That is why most are so sore about pay cuts and job losses, because frankly, they have no valuable skills or experience other than managing a cabin process that, and they'll argue this one, isn't that difficult. Whereas when an executive secretary, accountant, or nurse (pick any job where experience and or education matters) gets laid off due to cutbacks, they can pretty easily present themselves for an open job position at or near the same salary with their experience as their leverage. If a flight attendant loses here job, what skills does she have that warrants a like salary in an office setting.

Frankly, from being in this industry, its sad to see what happens to the lifers when they realize that they

1) Aren't going to make a whole lot, ever.
2) Can't do anything else to help themselves
3) Are pretty much stuck doing what they are doing, for whatever someone will offer them, forever.
 
FlyGuyClt
Topic Author
Posts: 1579
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 10:23 pm

RE: Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Sun Oct 02, 2005 9:31 pm

Quoting ETStar (Reply 38):
You almost sound as if the FA position is to be likened to that of paramedics and firefighters. Yes, while they may be the true heros, there are many other heroic acts that were performed in similar fashions as on airplanes: trains crash, their attendants help; a woman is in labour in a restaurant and gives birth there, and the waitress helped; this woman's purse was once snatched in the streets, and a shoe shine boy ran and caught the thief, and returned her purse, saving her lots of money; teachers and daycare folks take care of kinds _every day_ and ensure their safety, and educate them; etc etc and not all of them make $20000.

Well if you look at the link I put from the U.S. Government. They put "Related Jobs" as , Yes, hold on, Paramedics and Fire Fighters. I am not talking about "any" other profession on this post. I am not discounting any other profession. I am talking about Flight Attendants and facts through history about the job and what it really is. I have provided serveral links from several resources.

Quoting ETStar (Reply 38):
If you do not like the pay for an FA, or being on 15 hour work duty, or the particulars of the job, you can always opt not to work as one. While you were not complaining about this aspect, you should be reminded of other jobs that require long hours, nasty working conditions et al that could be as bad if not worse than being an FA.

Do you read my post?? I mean really?

Quoting FlyGuyClt (Thread starter):
15 hour Duty Days-8 hour layovers. (So, it is hotel or airport food) It is not like you can save money buy hitting a super market. And don't give me this stuff of take food with you. Some trips are 5 days long or more. That would be mission impossible. This is not a complaint of the job. Just a fact.

Please read this again. You will notice the end part. "THIS IS NOT A COMPLAINT OF THE JOB. JUST A FACT."

Quoting FlyGuyClt (Thread starter):
I have been a Flight Attendant for 19 years with 3 different airlines. I still have a passion for what I do. I still take the "job" with all its treasures and it's B.S. I don't complain for the most part

Ah, I think as stated. I still really enjoy the job? So what on Earth are you talking about ?

You are more than welcome to your opinion and thank you for adding to this post. But let me recap.

I have a passion for what I do.
I have prepared myself financially to except up to a 30% paycut.
I will continue to fly until I am shoved out the door.
I only recieve compliment letters, NOT complaint letters.

Safe Flying  Smile

Quoting ETStar (Reply 38):
I vividly remember the look and attitude I got when I asked an FA if there was a place I could hang my coat (was flying Econ), or the yelling FAs, or even one who had the nerve of saying "folks, this crew has had a long day and we would appreciate your assistance in quickly clearing the aisle." <- now if I said that to a client, would prolly get a bitch slap from a boss or two...

My post is a general list of accomplishments backed up by links. You can't really expect me to be accountable for the actions of hundreds of thousands of Flight Attendants "world wide" do you?
Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
 
FlyGuyClt
Topic Author
Posts: 1579
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 10:23 pm

RE: Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Sun Oct 02, 2005 9:46 pm

Quoting Jush (Reply 41):
I don't like how you have written this thread and i think it is rather pathetic

Thank You for your kind words. Many on here do not like the ugly tone this board is turning into. I just tried to put out factual information with out emotion or name calling.

Quoting IL76TD (Reply 44):
1) It's a rather unskilled profession. Did you go to college and study 'flight attendentry'. No, most likely, the company you first worked for made all the investment in your training. The nurse example was a great one, a nurse, in 99% of the cases: went to school specifically training and being educated as a nurse, at his/her own expense. A nurse saves lives, everyday, as part of what she does. A flight attendent saving lives is heroic, but it isn't what they are paid to do for years.

If you took the time to read the links I have posted. It is considered a "skilled job" there is a lot of training. It is on going. Sometimes up to 50% of the candidates in initial training flunk out. By the way. According to Webster"s Dictionary "Flight Attendentry" is not a word.

Quoting IL76TD (Reply 44):
3) Flight Attendents, no matter the experience or natural talent, holds very little value in the 'non-flight attendant' job market. That is why most are so sore about pay cuts and job losses, because frankly, they have no valuable skills or experience other than managing a cabin process that, and they'll argue this one, isn't that difficult. Whereas when an executive secretary, accountant, or nurse (pick any job where experience and or education matters) gets laid off due to cutbacks, they can pretty easily present themselves for an open job position at or near the same salary with their experience as their leverage. If a flight attendant loses here job, what skills does she have that warrants a like salary in an office setting.


FlyGuyClt writes:
I have been offered 3 jobs with great pay in the last 6 months. People that know me have come to me I have not applied. By the way, in reference to
"If a flight attendant loses here job, what skills does she have that warrants a like salary in an office setting." OVer 25% are male, included the poster. Again, this post is about FLIGHT ATTENDANTS. IT IS NOT ABOUT ANY OTHER PROFESSION OUT THERE. NOR, does it condemn any other profession out there.



"
[quote=IL76TD,reply=44]2) Can't do anything else to help themselves
3) Are pretty much stuck doing what they are doing, for whatever someone will offer them, forever.

-People can always do something to help themselves. What an awful outlook.

-Sometimes really enjoying what you do as long as you can, cloth, feed, and house yourself is just what you as an individual may do.

Thanks for your post.

Safe Flying  Smile
Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
 
TNboy
Posts: 1115
Joined: Mon Mar 04, 2002 8:12 pm

RE: Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Sun Oct 02, 2005 9:47 pm

A friend has recently started work as a FA. He loves the job, but said to me "I don't get paid enough for some of the cr*p I have to put up with". The job cant really be compared to the casual waiter work he did previously in terms of training, skills and commitment, nor in terms of impact on the customer.

However, whatever the skills or abilities required of an FA, whatever the criticality of their role in an emergency, the thing that most passengers see and remember - and most airlines gladly promote - is their personal contact - so it must have some significant monetary worth. (Tips aren't even optional, remember!)

You only have to read these forums (or, I suspect, the passenger comment files of any airline) to see that the impression created by an FA on ANY flight makes a big impression on passengers. Passengers are far more likely to abandon an airline because of surly FAs (bye bye UA!!) than for turbulence, delays or lost luggage, in my experience of their reactions.

So yes, they should be paid a fair and reasonable salary, and be given fair and reasonable conditions of employment. And that way, when those FAs who feel the world owes them a living and then some, fail to deliver, passengers can fairly expect airlines to deal with them appropriately.

Lets not get carried away with the idea of party-time in exotic locations as part of the job description. Its no more a fact of life for FAs than it is for businessmen and women who do similar amounts of travel (often in their own unpaid time). A good sleep, and, on the good days, a quick meal with friends, is about all you can hope for, whether you are a FA or a company executive.

In the meantime FlyGuyClt, I am glad you have shared your quite reasonable views in the manner you have, with reason and dignity.
Cheers
Bill
"...every aircraft is subtly different.."
 
FlyGuyClt
Topic Author
Posts: 1579
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 10:23 pm

RE: Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Sun Oct 02, 2005 9:52 pm

This post was and is for factual information only. Using a variety of sources. It was never intended to be a "we are the best or better than anyone thread." It was written with out any malice or to discount any other profession. It was a plain and simple outline of the job. Many posters on here have shown support and I thank them for it. I don't understand how some can turn it into ugliness. On many posts lately the tone is down right ugly. Saying things like "worthless" "doesn't deserve to make over $12,000 per year, ect" I just tried to provide link of useful and factual information. If you find this post "pathetic" don't read it. You don't have to "click and comment" if you have noticed my posts in the past. The ones I don't think are kind or factual, I usually avoid. I may throw a zinger in now and then, but I am human. We sometimes speak from the wrong end of our bodies, don't we?

Safe Flying  Smile with a little less condescending tone please.
Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
 
FlyGuyClt
Topic Author
Posts: 1579
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 10:23 pm

RE: Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Sun Oct 02, 2005 9:56 pm

Quoting Jush (Reply 41):
And i hope something like that is not done to achieve better flight fares.

Well oil companies profits in some cases have risen by 300% year over year. As long as the World's Governments don't do something, I guess we could volunteer our time to make this industry work and give out fares that don't even pay for the fuel.

Safe Flying  Smile
Florida Express, Braniff II and ......

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