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jush
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RE: Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Sun Oct 02, 2005 10:22 pm

Quoting FlyGuyClt (Reply 46):
Thank You for your kind words. Many on here do not like the ugly tone this board is turning into. I just tried to put out factual information with out emotion or name calling.

I might have ro apologize here. What i wanted to say is. The topic you're talking about and the facts are correct IMHO. Just i didn't like the way you wrote it down here. And then again i thought there was pretty much emotion in every post following the first one and the first one itself.
But i can understand you (i think). My sis is F/A as well although in Europe where your situation might be a little different but i have some insights in that branch as well.

Regards
jush
There is one problem with airbus. Though their products are engineering marvels they lack passion, completely.
 
IL76TD
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RE: Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Sun Oct 02, 2005 10:45 pm

"Sometimes up to 50% of the candidates in initial training flunk out."

Do you need a college degree to become a flight attendent. Didn't think so, so if you compare your 50% flunkout rates for 'initial training' to acceptance rates-flunkout rates at major Universities, trade schools, or grad schools, which are pretty much the same thing however are a personal investment and train you to be able to quickly and easily take up either one specialized or a number of different jobs, your figure isn't that impressive.
 
FlyGuyClt
Topic Author
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RE: Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Sun Oct 02, 2005 10:50 pm

Quoting IL76TD (Reply 51):

So what is with the dig? Again, I just posted links to information. History and facts and people are making this another attack. Have you ever wondered why so many of the folks that really added value to this board have gone away? Life is so short. Find some peace.

Safe Flying  Smile
Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
 
RAMPRAT980
Posts: 584
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RE: Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Sun Oct 02, 2005 11:25 pm

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 8):
When a customer has to be removed from an aircraft who does it, the F/A or the gate agent?

The airport police. Of the four PAX's I've seen removed from an aircraft each and everytime the airport police were called in to do so. This is a policy I agree with.

Quoting IL76TD (Reply 51):
"Sometimes up to 50% of the candidates in initial training flunk out."

what's the percentage of those F/A's leaving an airline within the first year ?
It has to be high.

Quoting Co767fa (Reply 26):
Show me one "living" F/A making this amount of money? Given that we are the first line of defense with terrorist/other nut case, we should be given "combat" pay.

I've been saying it for a while that airlines should hire retired from law enforcement. They would be getting a disciplined and skilled individual who brings much more to the table that your "average" Jane/Joe. If I were a recruiter working for an airline and I had two individuals looking for a job. Person # 1 is a current F/A with another airline looking for a job at my airline and person # 2 a an individual retired from law enforcement. I would choose person # 2. Many can say the reason for my decision is based on my background. But I truly feel that anyone and I mean ANYONE can be a flight attendant. Why an airline chooses an individual because of their obvious femininity(talking about men here) is beyond me.
Fire away folks. I'm wearing my level III body armor.
With gun control there can be no democracy.. With gun control there can be no Freedom
 
CO767FA
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RE: Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Sun Oct 02, 2005 11:40 pm

Quoting IL76TD (Reply 44):
Flight Attendents, no matter the experience or natural talent, holds very little value in the 'non-flight attendant' job market. That is why most are so sore about pay cuts and job losses, because frankly, they have no valuable skills or experience other than managing a cabin process that, and they'll argue this one, isn't that difficult.

ROFLMAO....You've got no clue how valuable our skills are, but I do, I've been "out" in the real world and made more money than when flying.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Mon Oct 03, 2005 1:47 am

FlyGuyClt, I agree with you completely. F/As should be rewarded for their hard work.

IMHO the unions in the US are the main reason they are not, since they enforce seniority systems which protect "bad" F/As. So you have a class of employees which is seen with some contempt by management and pax.

If the unions were interested in protecting their good members they would dump the seniority system so that good flight attendants could be rewarded for their work and crappy ones could be fired. That way the airlines would try to snag the good F/As so as to attract pax and the pax would not see F/As with the contempt they do now.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
IL76TD
Posts: 280
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RE: Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Mon Oct 03, 2005 3:30 am

Quoting FlyGuyClt (Reply 52):

I have my peace, from this thread, it seems you are the one that is agitated.
 
ACEregular
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RE: Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Mon Oct 03, 2005 5:45 am

It would be nice to be paid more respect let alone more cash, I think its easy from a passenger point of view to be blinkered. They only see the part from boarding to disembarking and think thats your day done. They dont realise that you may well have done 3 sectors before, had vast sums of largely similar people with utter contempt for you and the regulations you try and enforce for THEIR safety. You are tired and you could easily just rant at them but you dont. I laugh when doing a safety demonstration and some suit will be reading his broadsheet, I think you will be the first to beg me to help you should something go wrong, sadly thats the only time our worth is realised.
 
isitsafenow
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RE: Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Mon Oct 03, 2005 6:29 am

FLYGUYCLT...I have enjoyed and understand your posts on this topic. Please accept your admission to my respected users list. Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
safe
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
 
Gilligan
Posts: 1993
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RE: Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Mon Oct 03, 2005 8:34 am

Quoting Bohlman (Reply 24):
Mechanics? They don't even have to use original thought, they just tinker with machines using diagrams! Etc).


Ouch, and I thought (for a second) that maybe I was being too hard.

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 25):
Now, how about pilots who "sit around and push buttons" for 60hrs a month? Would you want your pilot to only hearn 12,000 bucks a year? Hey guess what... some pilots are already forced to take <24k a year!

Hey guess what, nobody put a gun to their head and told them they'd be a pilot or else. This falls into the "I have to spend so much time away from home" argument. I'd like a pilot to tell me just when he/she got the big surprise that he/she was going to have to spend time away from home doing their job. When did they figure out they'd be working for low pay for quite some time in their career?

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 25):
In Indonesia, meals in hotels or airports are expensive... your meal allowance doesn't buy you a steak! It buys you fried rice, meat and vegies only! Heck even the burgers at the airport cost more than your meal allowance!

Wish I could afford to eat steak everyday, btw right now I'm actually having fried rice and sweet and sour chicken so go cry a river.

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 25):
OK, wanna be in a full 737 with no F/As?

If they can make the flight a little more enjoyable yes, if not, they ain't doing anything for me. One way or the other world peace is not going to break out due to, and all the kids in Ethiopia aren't going to be fed today by an F/A.

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 25):
But are they on top of the food chain? Fact: NO

That does not change the fact that many of them still act as if they are.

Quoting Co767fa (Reply 26):
And how is that exclusive to F/A's? Are you saying G/A, Rampers and other employees are "stuck-up" free????

No, but I've found the F/A group as a whole to contain many more of those types.

Quoting Co767fa (Reply 26):
Water, your butt is on the ground and can decide whether you want fresh spring water or chemically treated water. We are in a tube, where cabin pressure makes it very dry and water (as many of you request) is the best for curing that dry mouth.

Looks like you missed the point. The same amount of water bottles as there are F/A's on the plane. Ever notice what many F/A's have stuck in their rollerboard going between gates? Like I said, we're trying to save some money but some people just don't get it.

Quoting Co767fa (Reply 26):
And whose fault is that????? CO agents had the opportunity to unionize, but the didn't.

But, as you state, the Pilots, Mechs, and Dispatchers are union and they all agreed that a pay cut was neccessary to help the airline. Everyone but the F/A's, go figure. I'm not mad at Larry, I think he's doing the best he can in a seriously tough and fluid financial situation.

Quoting Co767fa (Reply 26):
Did you know about the "pay-cuts" F/A's took after 9/11? How about the fact that we aren't paid until the wheels start moving????

I would have gladly taken your pay cut versus the furlough and loss of seniority I got. So how much are you making while your sitting there waiting to be de-iced, wheels up time to arrive while away from the gate, move to the head of the line for takeoff, circling the airport waiting for the atc or weather to clear, or for the gate to open up? How many times after the meal or snack service have I seen the F/A's dive into the galley, not to be seen again till it's time to prepare the cabin for landing?

Quoting Co767fa (Reply 26):
So, we come to work 1.5hrs, before departure and until the plane starts to move from the gate; we don't get a dime! Can you say the same? In between flights, when you are sitting around shooting the sh*t, are you getting paid? How would you like it if you weren't? You might work a holiday, but you still have the chance of getting off work and being with your family, we don't. We go to a hotel and have a can of tuna!

Ummm, guess what, I have to show up to be briefed in so I get to parking lot usually an hour in front of my start time, no pay for that. In between shifts I'm not getting crew rest in Hawaii, Europe, the far east, or any of a number of interesting domestic cities. The last line falls in with other posts that say basically that F/A's, and pilots, have it tough because they have to spend so many nights away from home. My question to that is, exactly when did you wake up to that little surprise? Did they spring it on you after you accepted the job? If you knew about it in advance then your complaint has no merit whatsoever since you knew about that going in. If you didn't like that idea then you should not have accepted the job. If it bothers you so much now you should quit. Since the pay cuts I have yet to see a "four day". I see seven and even 14 days straight to make up the difference. I see lots of 16 hour, which really equates to 18 hour, doubles.

BTW, as to the pay cuts, thanks for proving my point. Everyone else was willing to work as a team and accept their fair share, everyone except the F/A's. Fancy that!

Quoting Co767fa (Reply 26):
Show me one "living" F/A making this amount of money? Given that we are the first line of defense with terrorist/other nut case, we should be given "combat" pay.

The figure was used as an example, not a difinitive. Hmmm, I was under the impression that the TSA was the first line of defense. I didn't say best, I said first.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
Slarty
Posts: 302
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RE: Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Mon Oct 03, 2005 9:09 am

Quoting FlyGuyClt (Thread starter):
Weather you choose to use your mind or not

ROFL

Sorry, couldn't get past this ...
 
exFATboy
Posts: 1887
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RE: Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Mon Oct 03, 2005 9:37 am

While I try to be sympathetic with FAs, seems that a post like this pops up every few months, and once again we have to review the basic laws of economics.

The reason why FAs make the money (or lack thereof) they do is a function of economics, not of a "lack of respect" or anything like that. The bottom line is that it is not that difficult of a job to learn to do - FA training is measured in weeks, while a pilot or mechanic's training is measured in years. The job does not require a college degree, and does not require any special aptitudes that are in short supply, such as unusual mechanical aptitude. To do it well may require superior communication skills, but the Western world is littered with communications and English majors.

I'm sorry if that seems harsh, but that's the facts of the matter. The fact that the carriers have no trouble keeping the planes staffed shows that the current wage is, as economic types would say, "market clearing."

Quoting FlyGuyClt (Thread starter):
Some on here seem to think that Flight Attendants should only make $12,000 a year or so to subsidize their cheap fares.

(sigh) You know, as a passenger I'm getting really tired of hearing this ridiculous line.

Econ 101 one more time:

The demand function (quantity demanded at any given price level) by consumers has NO reference to the cost of production. The amount of travel passengers are willing to buy is solely a function of the perceived utility of the travel (profit from business travel, enjoyment of leisure travel.)

The wage level of airline staff does not constitute a "subsidy" - there is simply no relationship between cost of production and quantity supplied, at least not from the customer's point of view. (This relationship can drive supplier's decisions to change their supply function, though.)
 
RAMPRAT980
Posts: 584
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2005 1:06 am

RE: Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Mon Oct 03, 2005 12:22 pm

Quoting ExFATboy (Reply 61):
While I try to be sympathetic with FAs, seems that a post like this pops up every few months, and once again we have to review the basic laws of economics.

The reason why FAs make the money (or lack thereof) they do is a function of economics, not of a "lack of respect" or anything like that. The bottom line is that it is not that difficult of a job to learn to do - FA training is measured in weeks, while a pilot or mechanic's training is measured in years. The job does not require a college degree, and does not require any special aptitudes that are in short supply, such as unusual mechanical aptitude. To do it well may require superior communication skills, but the Western world is littered with communications and English majors.

I'm sorry if that seems harsh, but that's the facts of the matter. The fact that the carriers have no trouble keeping the planes staffed shows that the current wage is, as economic types would say, "market clearing."

Very interesting point and I might add its to the point. You should cut and paste what you wrote saving it for the next time a thread like this comes up
With gun control there can be no democracy.. With gun control there can be no Freedom
 
mandala499
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RE: Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Mon Oct 03, 2005 2:01 pm

Hey guess what, nobody put a gun to their head and told them they'd be a pilot or else.

Unfortunately here, for some, that's what they got after they signed up... Be a pilot for a 160 pax jet at a dismal salary for 90- 110 hrs a month or else! (insert bonds for type ratings, command ratings, company car, transfer fees as reason by company).

Wish I could afford to eat steak everyday, btw right now I'm actually having fried rice and sweet and sour chicken so go cry a river.
What I mean is that no, they're not asking to afford a steak and a burger with their meal allowance... The cheapest food at the airport here is most likely a burger or a cr4ppy restaurant meal for US$3, add that with the drink (a rip-off $1), and there goes your $1.5 breakfast or $2 Lunch/Dinner allowance. Yes, even fried rice which is 70 cents here at the airport can cost $3!

The point about the "wanna be in a full 737 with no F/A" is, would anyone like to be in a full 737 with no F/A and the pilot goes "oh-oh, we got problems up here"...

That does not change the fact that many of them still act as if they are
Well those who think that way should wake up to reality!

What I'm saying is based on the situation here, where are are no F/A unions, the companies are struggling to survive after their own market flooding... How some companies treat their crew can be abhorrable, and I hope it doesn't happen there... Here, the less you pay them, the worse it becomes... The more you pay them, the more they'll look after their job, profession, safety and their passengers! That's what happened here... perhaps this is a result of not unionizing...

The demand function (quantity demanded at any given price level) by consumers has NO reference to the cost of production. The amount of travel passengers are willing to buy is solely a function of the perceived utility of the travel (profit from business travel, enjoyment of leisure travel.)

That's the rational customer behaviour... the irrational part of it is, they want to pay peanuts and get royal service! Pay your crew well (not excessively tough) will result in the crew coming up with royal solutions to calming down the wannabe royal peanut... Pay your crew peanuts, you'll get monkey solutions dealing with those pax...

I've always said no to Unions, but that doesn't mean I'm right and they're wrong or vice-versa ALL the time... One thing's for sure, teamwork between different work groups is needed, management should always strive to make the workplace a good one... Now cost cutting can only go so far...

btw right now I'm actually having fried rice and sweet and sour chicken
Just a curious question, does it cost more than your "average meal" over there?

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
VHXLR8
Posts: 487
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RE: Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Mon Oct 03, 2005 2:16 pm

Firstly, FlyGuyClt, congrats man!! Great post, I doubt any of us could have summed things up in such plain (and hostility-free) terms as you have done. You have my total respect mate.

Quoting IL76TD (Reply 44):
Flight Attendents, no matter the experience or natural talent, holds very little value in the 'non-flight attendant' job market. That is why most are so sore about pay cuts and job losses, because frankly, they have no valuable skills or experience other than managing a cabin process that, and they'll argue this one, isn't that difficult. Whereas when an executive secretary, accountant, or nurse (pick any job where experience and or education matters) gets laid off due to cutbacks, they can pretty easily present themselves for an open job position at or near the same salary with their experience as their leverage. If a flight attendant loses here job, what skills does she have that warrants a like salary in an office setting.

So I take it then, that you have spoken to a vast array of flight attendants about what actual qualifications they may indeed have. One who makes such sweeping generalisations should certainly hope to have.
Unlike movies, and tv, many flight attendants do have some very valuable qualifications. A particularly large proportion who I work with have university or college degrees; but choose to do the job because they WANT to do it, not because they HAVE to.
Similiarly, a lot fly to compliment other work they may do, particularly running or starting their own businesses; and flying gives them the unique flexibility that enables them to compliment and stabilise their income.

Quoting Trolley Dolley (Reply 22):
However, my friends and I have had to deal with things like coming across severely injured people in a car accident, performing CPR on people, assist with medical conditions like fits and diabetic issues or helping extinguish fires in the general course of life. Many of the challenges faced by F/A's are not unique to the airline environment.

Whilst many people, youself and your friends included, deal with such unfortunate circumstances in 'everyday' life, there is in indeed one factor which makes the challenges faced by F/As very different (and arguably far more stressful). The everday incidents of which you speak happen on the ground. They are not at 37000 ft in low pressure and difficult conditions; you cannot call an ambulance, nor the police, nor the fire brigade etc etc. Up there, it all boils down to us.

Quoting TNboy (Reply 47):
Lets not get carried away with the idea of party-time in exotic locations as part of the job description. Its no more a fact of life for FAs than it is for businessmen and women who do similar amounts of travel (often in their own unpaid time). A good sleep, and, on the good days, a quick meal with friends, is about all you can hope for, whether you are a FA or a company executive.

Well said mate, cheers!
 
Gilligan
Posts: 1993
Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 12:15 pm

RE: Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Tue Oct 04, 2005 1:18 am

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 63):
Unfortunately here, for some, that's what they got after they signed up... Be a pilot for a 160 pax jet at a dismal salary for 90- 110 hrs a month or else! (insert bonds for type ratings, command ratings, company car, transfer fees as reason by company).

Well, I hate to break the news but that is not something that is industry specific. I've worked for radio stations, with a contract, where the old owner introduced me to the new owner (I didn't even know the station was up for sale)and the first thing the new owner told me was that I was doing a great job but if I wanted to stay I'd have to do it for less. I've sold autos and been told by the owner that commisions were being cut, that month. So while I certainly don't think, for the most part, that it is fair I've certainly seen it happen many more places than just the airlines. That being said, I hold to my original statement that no one put a gun to anyones head and said do this or else and if you did even the most superficial research before you hired on you should have known the basic pay structure and what hardships were involved. If you didn't like either, you should never have applied. If you don't like them now, maybe it's time to move on. Anyone who got into this business and didn't realize the up and down nature of it was wearing some rose colored glasses as well.

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 63):
Just a curious question, does it cost more than your "average meal" over there?

Average Chinese meal? No, since you actually get two entree's versus the normal one at a regular Chinese place.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
mandala499
Posts: 6593
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RE: Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Tue Oct 04, 2005 2:09 pm

Gilligan,
if you did even the most superficial research before you hired on you should have known the basic pay structure and what hardships were involved. If you didn't like either, you should never have applied. If you don't like them now, maybe it's time to move on.

I never went to that company... fortunately. And the company was very tightly lipped about it, as more and more got duped in, and realising they can't get out (try loosing your license for leaving the company despite the company's breaking regulations endless, as a deterrent)... but eventually word got out. I agree in that the most superficial research would help oneself a long way, but unfortunately, some of the people my colleagues asked were the "I want you to be in the same hell as I am" types of people  Sad

Fortunately, that airline I quoted is as far as I know the only one that dupe in pilots then enslave them and then squeeze more out of them (it goes further to forcing them to fly more hours and not reporting those hours to the authorities)... But a crash, a few overruns, and heaps of pax complaints stopped that practice... at least for a while.

I guess it goes to show from this thread that the glamour and elitism of the aviation industry is gone. F/As are being paid less, pilots are being paid less, they all work longer hours, mechanics and engineers, dispatchers, Fl-Ops guys too... and the ground service staff too.

While we agree that some treatments are unfair and that some "victims" feel they still deserve royal treatment *pukes*, where's the right balance? Most participants of this thread have put out views from either side of the fence, but where's the meeting point? There has to be one otherwise we'll end up either with stuck up grannies being the F/As bashing crying babies citing safety as a reason, or we'll get crew being paid less than your part time student worker at the local McDonalds because the company says "it's for our survival", while they take out the multimillion resignation packages...
---

Re. the meal... I meant, does it cost more than an average meal (any meal)?

From the land of failed regulators,

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
Gilligan
Posts: 1993
Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 12:15 pm

RE: Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Sat Oct 08, 2005 9:17 am

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 66):
Re. the meal... I meant, does it cost more than an average meal (any meal)?

No, not really. Is it as good? No, not really. I think the big problem with most airport food is that the vendors know you really don't have the time or the means to go anywhere else.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
SHUPirate1
Posts: 3428
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2003 2:53 pm

RE: Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Sat Oct 08, 2005 9:23 am

Quoting FlyGuyClt (Reply 46):
Sometimes up to 50% of the candidates in initial training flunk out.

Isn't the percentage of interviewees that make it to training, however, usually very high, like, in Chautauqua's case, everybody except for SHUPirate1?
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
Markdirk
Posts: 48
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2004 9:25 pm

RE: Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Sat Oct 08, 2005 10:46 am

Wow, FlyGuyClt that was wonderful, thank you so much, I agree with 100+% about everything. There is so much that goes into our jobs it is just incomprehensible. I know now we all earn measly unlivable wages, but as it seems like most always what we have seen in the past comes around to smack us again and again, it may take a few more years of this horrible pay, but the standards of living increases will have to force a wage increase for us hopefully one that is deserving for the amount of work we do, for now I know it's bad, I have had to fly 140 hours this month just to make a measly little paycheck, my last check was for roughly $500.00, I have $1400.00 a month in bills alone, I had no money to buy food on 4 day trips, no money to tip van drivers, no money for anything, my airline only serves junk food snacks, so I work starving, tired, and extremely fatigued, and full of anxiety just waiting for the next anvil to fall and land on my head, and then be faced with some beligerent passenger that tells me she doesn't give a sh*t about sitting down during landing because "were already there" as we cross over the threshold of the runway at 145 miles an hour! (it was too late to call the cockpit and go around) so Fine I did my job, I told her to sit, she didn't want to listen, she thought she knew better and BAM fell down on landing, but the customer was always right, she knew she was right and told me off, my hands were tied I couldn't force her down and they don't pay me to kick her ass, but whatever. She then had to explain it to the local police when we landed and the captain, and then the airline said they weren't going to help her and told her she could take a cab to a hospital if she wanted to but she was going to have to pay for it herself!, oh our passengers just know it all! Nothing ever happened to her except our airline has banned her from ever flying on it again, she will just have to push her shopping cart from florida to New York on I-95 from now on! For gosh sake the price of her ticket was $49.00! (outrageous)!!!!!

The passengers don't listen to us anymore about anything, the management treats us like slaves, and threatens us with our jobs at the drop of a hat, I agree it is horrible now, but the thing that keeps me going is the hope and fact that things can only change for the better, passengers can't continue to wear flip-flops, tube tops, and hair curlers for the rest of their lives eventually they will have to get dressed, so styles will change, personal responsibility should come back after the management and courts have had enough of cases involving passenger injuring themselves while flying through the cabin during takeoff and landing and turbulence,why because they won't listen to us ....etc well you know what I mean, what goes around comes around and as long as we do our jobs to the best of our ability Karma will get the rest of them, and finally about our wages, I firmly believe that after all this terrorist/poor management/ lack of proper airline pricing of tickets and all this bad economy improve and more changes we will see a steady increase in our wages to livable and better than livable wages. As flight Attendants we really need to stick together and work with unions during negotiation time to keep the increase in wages coming and they will come. Just have faith.

Again thank you for your wonderful comments you really put it in perspective and I listened and will share it with my flying partners. Hope I didn't offend anyone with my details, sorry if I did, but I am a flight attendant and I am tired, hungry and mentally exhausted, not to mention poor as a, well as a flight attendant!

Happy flying!
 
Whataboutme
Posts: 122
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 5:21 am

RE: Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Sat Oct 08, 2005 11:10 am

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 66):
I guess it goes to show from this thread that the glamour and elitism of the aviation industry is gone. F/As are being paid less, pilots are being paid less, they all work longer hours, mechanics and engineers, dispatchers, Fl-Ops guys too... and the ground service staff too.

CEO's and all management are living a glamorous life with the expense of the employees.
 
SuperD
Posts: 88
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2005 7:58 am

RE: Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Sat Oct 08, 2005 11:44 am

I have a great deal of respect for FAs. I'm often glad that I'm sitting on the quiet side of the cockpit door when we have to hand down the news that ATC extended our groundstop and we'll be sitting here on the taxiway for another hour. I know my job is not as physically demanding. I get to sit while they're on their feet in the back. A good FA makes more of an impression with a passenger than I ever will. I have to really slam an aircraft on the runway or be a standup comedian on the PA for a passenger to remember me an hour after the flight. On the other hand, they'll remember and comment on the service they had on the flight for a long time. The job and influence of a FA is more comparable to marketing than it is to something like waitressing. It's unfortunate that the flying public doesn't always give them the credit they deserve.

That said, pay rarely matches up with worth in this world. As so many others have mentioned, it all comes down to supply and demand. Researchers in certain fields (astronomy, marine biology) can be dirt-poor with doctorates simply because the demand for that research doesn't match the ready supply of eager scientists in those fields. We could probably name hundreds of careers where pay doesn't match worth (elementary school teachers, nurses, etc.) As a regional pilot that's relatively junior at my company, I make less than 20K/yr after years of training, time-building, instructing, blood, sweat, tears, etc. I make less than the mainline FAs I share my crashpad with, but I try not to say anything when they complain about how little they make. I don't complain about it because I know I'm very lucky to have a seat in a regional jet when there are so many qualified pilots out there that would love to have my job.
 
Lono
Posts: 1136
Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2004 5:47 pm

RE: Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Sat Oct 08, 2005 3:24 pm

Quoting FlyGuyClt (Thread starter):
I have been a Flight Attendant for 19 years with 3 different airlines.

Dude without saying.... You are a vet of this industry.... I too have been in the fight with 3 majors.....Welcome To my R/U list..... Keep it up!!!
Wally Bird Ruled the Skys!
 
B744F
Posts: 2927
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2006 4:52 pm

RE: Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Sat Oct 08, 2005 3:54 pm

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 66):
I guess it goes to show from this thread that the glamour and elitism of the aviation industry is gone. F/As are being paid less, pilots are being paid less, they all work longer hours, mechanics and engineers, dispatchers, Fl-Ops guys too... and the ground service staff too.

the problem: shareholders and executive pay
 
Pomnath
Posts: 384
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2005 6:55 am

RE: Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:14 pm

Let me try to understand this, are the Flight Attendants and Cockpit Crew here saying that:-

a) They don't like THE work.

or

b) They don't like TO work.

Please remember, terms like "cattle class" and "self-moving freight" were not invented by passengers. Respect begets respect.

And if cabin crew salaries are really down to 500 dollars a month in the US, all I can say is, well, please change your job.
Sea to Sky, Racists should Die!!
 
AsianFA
Posts: 76
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2004 2:58 pm

RE: Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:19 pm

As a FA for over 20 years....heres my 2 cents worth.We are all human beings....those that are doing the job...or those who are sitting on a seat in an aircraft.There are nice FAs...there are nasty ones.There are nice passengers..there are nasty ones.FAs have it better than some people in terms of job employment...and they have it worse than others.
FAs have to endure hotel food because of their gruelling schedule....well..so do the business men who fly ...then attend a meeting all day..and end up in their hotel room at midnight alone tired and hungry...doctors have to operate on their feet for 12hours sometimes more....
We all have a job to do...a job that we applied for...a job that we thought we would enjoy...a job that we are being paid to do.Its not a perfect job...but nothing is perfect.
If this world was perfect...wouldnt it be monotonous and boring?But its what makes this world turn....just be happy,courteous and nice to each and every1 and maybe your life will be a better one...be it FA,passenger,doctor,engineer,businessman etc...we are all human beings and we are all equals.
 
Markdirk
Posts: 48
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2004 9:25 pm

RE: Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Sat Oct 08, 2005 10:33 pm

Here's another weblink to show the heroism flight attendants of TWA 843, created by one of the flight attendants on that flight.

http://www.twaflight843.com/
 
mrocktor
Posts: 1391
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 12:57 am

RE: Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Sun Oct 09, 2005 1:23 am

Quoting ExFATboy (Reply 61):



Quoting IL76TD (Reply 44):

Since the economic facts of the matter have been presented, though many of the flight attendants on the board insist on denial, I'll explore the human angle.

The central issue with all the unhappy flight attendants is that they think "I am a flight attendant". This is the mistake. You are a free person, and you choose to work as a flight attendant. Every day you don't quit your job, you renew that choice.

Suddenly "I am worth more than this" and "my friends are worth more than this" becomes "flight attendants are worth more than this". As the two guys above pointed out, it's not about your value, but the market value of the work you currently do.

You can be sure that the new guys signing on for the low wages are happy for making that much. If what you make is not worth it to you, you owe it to yourself to quit your job. If quitting and finding a better job is too difficult for you, then you are paid what you are worth. Or more.

mrocktor
 
tu154
Posts: 345
Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2004 1:37 am

RE: Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Sun Oct 09, 2005 3:19 am

Quoting FlyGuyClt (Reply 11):
Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 9):
Oh, dont forget the bennies too. Your employer is paying your medical insurance tab each month and that's a killer alone. I send Blue Cross a check every month for my employees and every year it goes up about 16 per cent.
But I feel they are worth it.



I have to beg to differ on this one. With the recent concessions, we now pay, like many people, a percentage of our medical/dental. When it comes to travel, flights are so full it's very difficult to get on and besides, its now cheaper to fly other airlines with zed fares and ID 95's. In some cases it's even cheaper to go full fare on other airlines than to fly standby on my own!

But, alas, there are many "bennies" to this career. Getting out of town and exploring great cities, flexibility of schedule, ever-changing scenery. What other job would give me 19 days off a month? It sux that I have to commute but I choose to. I hated having two paycuts but it's gone. It is very true that some people seem to not "respect" flight attendants, but I think they do. We are in the sevice industry...that is our job. Half the time i've seen flight attendants be disrespected at work is because they have been dis-respectful. If you ask any person on the street if they respect flight attendants...most would say yes, and also add, "I don't know how they do that job, I couldn't!" Some f/a's get so flustered if they tell someone to sit and they don't, or can't believe the guy in 2a was so upset about no meal choice, or how about that annoying guy that went on and on about the delay! I have also seen flight attendants go off on hotel staff about the rooms not being ready, or because the crew bus was late picking us up. It goes both ways, and we have to look at it from both sides. We do deserve respect, but we must also give it. We must always remember however, that we are in the service industry. So if someone seems to disrespect you....smile and walk away. They will most likely feel like a jerk afterwards.
FIRST ON THE ATLANTIC.....FIRST ON THE PACIFIC.....FIRST IN LATIN AMERICA...FIRST 'ROUND THE WORLD.....PAN AM!!
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13899
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Sun Oct 09, 2005 3:48 am

I have worked for two years in pax handling / customer service in TXL (before I went into MX). From my experiences with pax (though there were also many nice moments) and from observing and talking to the F/As of the passenger airline I'm doing maintenance for now, I know I wouldn't last one week in this job. Being in pax handling on the ground still has the advantage that you can get away if the sh*t becomes too much or call a superior if things get rough. The F/As on the ther hand are locked in an aluminium tube, together with the passengers, of which quite a few are quite obnoxious. I would probably get fired within one week for becoming physical with a pax.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
FlyGuyClt
Topic Author
Posts: 1579
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 10:23 pm

RE: Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Mon Oct 10, 2005 10:16 pm

Quoting Markdirk (Reply 76):

Thanks for the link. I appreciate you taking the time.

To many of those who have sent me personal emails who used to be members of this board and now are not. Thank You for your kind words.

To the negative posters. When I started this thread. It was about the flight attendant profession and their worth through factual information and links. I did not talk about any other aviation profession because I don't know it as well as I do being a flight attendant. I never said we are worth $100,000 as some of you have said. I was repeating a post on another thread when I did say we are worth more than $12,000 a year. And to your shock, yes we are. I have listed facts from a wide variety of sources to back up this claim. Take the time to educate yourself and not type out your venom online. Maybe it is being an arrogant American. But in America you see, this country was founded on the fact that everyone should be able to live their own dream, and make a decent wage, buy a home and have some money in the bank.

Spread a little love in the world. Pursue your passion. Don't knock some one else who is following their passion and enjoying life. Your negative influence is no good with this guy.

Safe Flying to All  Smile
Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
 
flflyguy
Posts: 195
Joined: Sun May 30, 2004 7:26 pm

RE: Flight Attendant Facts Of Worth.

Tue Oct 11, 2005 5:31 am

FlyGuyClt, excellent post.

I hope that my remarks are not repeating something that I missed in reading through this thread...if so please forgive me.

To those that compare f/a's with nurses/paramedics/firefighters, etc. --- of course we are not the only ones that save lives, etc etc. And we frankly don't do it on a very regular basis. But here's the difference: WE DO IT ALONE. For however long it takes to get the plane on the ground, which can be hours in the case of transoceanic flights, WE ONLY HAVE WHAT WE HAVE. A paramedic who encounters someone having a heart attack quickly moves that person to an ambulance, and then to a hospital. They are excellent first responders, but they have backup.

We do not. Whether it is an oven fire, a medical emergency, a hysterical passenger, or whatever....we are on our own. We can't even get help from the pilots any more...they are required to stay in the cockpit.

I don't think most of you can imagine what it is like to have a passenger on oxygen or on the AED or having a diabetic shock...we've paged for medical personnel and there is none on board....the stress is enormous (but we are trained for that, and will deal as best we can with it).

And then a call light rings and someone wants pretzels. Or when you finally land and ask people to remain seated so that the paramedics can come aboard, and someone says "but my son is picking me up and I have to get off right now!". It happens all the time! I think sometimes that stresses me more than the original incident!!

The other point I would like to make has to deal with those who say that F/A pay is market driven, we are idiots not to realize it, etc. etc. etc. Of course what you say is true.

But look at it a little differently. Take another profession...a doctor, a nurse, a paramedic, an auto plant worker, it really doesn't matter.

Tell them that they have to give up 25% of their pay, and will have to work more to get the remaining 75%.

Imagine their response. Do you think they will say, "Oh, ok. No problem. Good idea...wait, why don't you take 30% instead of 25?". I don't think that is how they will react. It involves changing the rules in the middle of the game, and that is never fun. I have worked for AA for 24 years. The one thing I always thought I could count on was my pension. Clearly, I can no longer do so...although AA says it wants to try to preserve them. And now that I have to do additional planning for retirement, do I have extra money to sock into my IRA or 401K or whatever? I do not...I have less money to do so.

Yes, I could quit. But I like my job and don't want to leave. I think that is the case with most F/As. Do I complain? Yes, I do. Would you complain? Yes, I think you would.

I think that what gets us (and all airline workers, for that matter) worked up is not that perhaps we are going to have to adjust. Clearly, we are. The problem is when we percieve, rightly or wrongly, that the adjustment is not equitable. For instance, in 2003 when AA was going through its restructuring, right as we were voting on the cuts it came out that Don Carty had set up a bulletproof pension for executives, and that upper management was getting large bonuses. Do you blame us for getting upset? I am willing to take whatever I have to take to see that AA survives and prospers, but I am not willing to be the "fall guy" for management ineptness and errors. Nor am I willing to fund perks for the executive team that managed their way into the mess.

The result of that fiasco was, of course, that Don Carty lost his job.

I think most of us are relatively pleased with the progress we have made with Gerard Arpey at the helm. We are the only legacy carrier remaining that is paying its bills and has always done so. Will more cuts come? Maybe. But at least the company is sharing the information with the unions so that together we can try to come up with ways to save money that do not involve our personal livlihoods. And so far, we're doing a pretty good job of it.

Of course, if we could get people to pay the same thing to fly that it costs them to drive their car, we'd be rolling in the dough!!! (only partially kidding).

Just some additional thoughts on the subject. Remember: we're people too.

Safe flying.
The views expressed are my own, and not necessarily those of my employer.

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