Most of us on Airliners are rather more informed than your average passenger, we follow the latest aviation news and sometimes I think perhaps 'Joe Public' cares much less about which airline and the level of service on board provided they are given a safe, reliable flight.

My grandparents are seasoned air travellers. they have much disposable income and are now retired so make frequent air trips. These are usually short-haul city breaks with the occasional longer haul trip. They fly more than a dozen times each year to various destinations.

My gran recently flew to LHR from MAN with BMI and I purposely didnt inform her of the changes to BMIs service, to see if she passed comment upon her return. Totally unprompted, she has just been telling me about how she wont fly BMI again. She only had notes and no change and after a rush around the airport to board, she was denied a cup of tea because she did not have the correct monies to pay. She said to crew 'I fly with yu all the time and never have to pay' the cabin crew, she said, were most apologetic but didnt have sufficient time/change to allow her a cuppa.

After years of loyaltyto British Midland as she still calls them, she will try to avoid them in future.

My gran hails from the Midlands and has been flying British Midland for 40 years. She usually flies economy but always books close to departure and pays a hefty price for her fare. How many other high-end lesiure travellers in addition to business passengers is BMI ailienating with their appalling customer service??

They're service really is getting poor.
A real difference from 3 or so years ago.
Its a real dissapointment, when BA are only £10 or so more expensive, if that!
They are shaming on the star alliance in my opinion
Alex

I came across this article on the Manchester's Evening News website this week. The article is basically an interview with bmi's Nigel Turner and a poor excuse to shamelessly promote their services. It's full of spin, totally biased and it wouldn't surprise me if the journo who wrote it got more than a few free bmi flights!

Anyway, take a look at the comments section at the bottom of the article and you'll get a more accurate view of bmi's so called 'strategy'.

For once I am in agreement with the majority (including you Orion  ) and really think bmi have lost the plot. Articles like the one i've mentioned only further the belief that bmi really are out of touch with everyone else and can't see what a fragmented, confused and inconsistent airline they have become.

Mark

[Edited 2005-10-04 18:29:47]

Well, if she went any other way to LHR i.e Train, car, national express etc, would she expect to get free tea and stuff on them? Cos if she did she would be sorely dissapointed! Makes me laugh, the flight is 30 mins, yet people moan that there are no free refreshments, the flight is (most of the time) cheaper than other types of transport. The train probably taked up too 5 times longer, but you dont hear people moaning that they arent getting their free cup of tea!

You'll be lucky if the train arrived to Euston at all if you take beardy trains

Quoting Catatonic (Reply 3): Well, if she went any other way to LHR i.e Train, car, national express etc, would she expect to get free tea and stuff on them? Cos if she did she would be sorely dissapointed! Makes me laugh, the flight is 30 mins, yet people moan that there are no free refreshments, the flight is (most of the time) cheaper than other types of transport. The train probably taked up too 5 times longer, but you dont hear people moaning that they arent getting their free cup of tea!

You are looking too much inside the box, and not enough outside of it. Its a question of what consumers expect. Air travel has a stigma attached to it, one that was originally conceived by the airlines themselves. From the outset, air travel was an elitist luxury. People flew, and expected a meal, drinks, etc included in the ticket they purchased.

Admittedly since the 1970's things have slowly changed. The USA was the first place to have no frills airlines. Easyjet and the such didnt arrive in the UK till the 1990's.

Now comes the problem. For 60 years, you have a product that people have grown up with, that hasnt really changed, and if it ever has, for the better and to get more for your Dollar. People expect.

Easyjet et al came along with the flat line that you didnt get a drink, you didnt get a meal, you didnt get this that and the other. The exciting bit is however, that you do get a cheap flight. People understand that Easyjet = Cheap, Ryanair = Cheap, Soutwest = Cheap, etc.

In the UK British Midland and British Airways have a product that a large amount of the country have experienced or heard about. When they book with these said airlines, there is a certain amount of expectation. British Midland used to be a very respected airline, one with a certain something, style, service and substance.

Not everyone wants to fly no frills. Whilst I personally want to fly for the best price available, I am more than happy to pay £25 for more leg room, or £20 extra so I DO get a meal. Its the little things that count, and the less I have to think about and the more I receive, the better! Bmi offered this, although I have never flown with them, I would have considered it had I flown on a route they served. They now offer the same as Easyjet and Ryanair, but they have an established brand name that is associated with an airline of a completely different class.

With regards to Orions grandparents, they expect a drink. They have flown in the past with them, and their decision to fly on them again is to do with the previous experiences. Bmi had built brand loyalty, only to completely crush it. If they use an airline because of whats offered and what they do, that is what they decide. They expect because that is what is given.

bmi AREN'T supposed to be a LCC.
THey operate out of LHR, they aren't cheap, and until a few months ago, their service was great.
THAT is what people are getting annoyed about.
bmi's blatant disregard to their customers, and loyal customers.
Alex

Quoting Demoose (Reply 2): I came across this article on the Manchester's Evening News website this week. The article is basically an interview with bmi's Nigel Turner and a poor excuse to shamelessly promote their services. It's full of spin, totally biased and it wouldn't surprise me if the journo who wrote it got more than a few free bmi flights!

Well that article confirms one thing - as soon as Bermuda II is cancelled, bye bye MAN, and no doubt bye bye RUH and BOM!

God - Is you're whole family obsessed with Cups of Tea on flights??.

To suggest she wont fly a carrier again because she has to pay for 'a cuppa' on board is another shining example of the apparent mentality of you and your family Orion.

What you both seem to have lost sight of is that while BOB has bean integrated, fares have decreased. Example - 3 months ago the full YBMI return fare LHR-MAN was £304.00. Today, it is £248.00. A cup of tea is £1.20.

See where I'm going with this? If your Gran can't see that she isn't paying for that service any more, then she probably shouldn't be travelling alone!
Irrespective of your feelings on the BOB concept, your Gran's 'high spending leisure trips' are cheaper than they used to be!

I'm not a fan of BMI, or any of their 57 strategies at present. But when people say cr*p like this, it winds me up. Your Gran is not representative of the market. The majority of people will continue to fly on the cheapest carrier - irrespective of the level of service on board. Only informed, seasoned travellers would notice this, and they may consider the other options available to them on longer journeys. On 30minute hops, nobody really gives a damn.

7LBAC111

Quoting 7LBAC111 (Reply 8): God - Is you're whole family obsessed with Cups of Tea on flights??. To suggest she wont fly a carrier again because she has to pay for 'a cuppa' on board is another shining example of the apparent mentality of you and your family Orion.

Before you are so appallingly rude you need to carefully read what you are commenting on. No where in Orion's thread is there mention that his relative would not fly bmi again because 'she has to pay for "a cuppa" on board'. Here it is clearly not Orion and his families mentality that is in question. Please look (and read) before you leap and learn just a few basic manners.

Thank you VV701. Im afraid it is the case that 7LBAC will jump on my case whatever I write. Im afraid he does not like me at all,despite saying this is not the case. Its every single time I post that this self-righteous, self-appointed moderator attacks me.

I and am glad to see others too, are getting highly sick of it. He doesnt even take the time to read carefully my posts anymore before launching into his personal attacks.

[Edited 2005-10-05 17:42:40]

Quoting VV701 (Reply 9):

Excuse me??? And you are?? Let me make this black and white for you. Interpret this as you wish.

Quoting Orion737 (Thread starter): Totally unprompted, she has just been telling me about how she wont fly BMI again. She only had notes and no change and after a rush around the airport to board, she was denied a cup of tea because she did not have the correct monies to pay. She said to crew 'I fly with yu all the time and never have to pay'

Quoting Orion737 (Thread starter): After years of loyaltyto British Midland as she still calls them, she will try to avoid them in future.

I made it bold so you can see it better.   

And finally, VV701, perhaps you should read some of Orions prior posts and develop a greater understanding of the individual concerned. Maybe then it will make a little more sense!

7LBAC111

to settle this why dont BMI implement a voucher system, Those who pay in excess of say £100 get a free meal and refreshments via a redeemable onboard voucher that they would recieve when they check in and those who pay less than £100 dont get anything as is this case now.

Your Gran remembers a romantic era of air travel where getting a cup of tea was a bare minimum. The irony of this story is that with her adequate disposable income she can do what she likes and quite right too!!! If she chooses to spend her money elsewhere then that is to the detriment to BMI.

Quoting Orion737 (Reply 10): Im afraid it is the case that 7LBAC will jump on my case whatever I write. Im afraid he does not like me at all

Perhaps a little 'self reflection' may help you understand why?

Quoting Orion737 (Reply 10): Im afraid he does not like me at all,despite saying this is not the case. Its every single time I post that this self-righteous, self-appointed moderator attacks me.

I really don't 'not like you' Orion! I have never met you. I certainly don't share many of the same opinions or sentiments as you, but thats as far as it goes. And I'm just a teensy weensy bit sure that I'm not alone in that....

Self appointed moderator? Whats that about? 

7LBAC111

Quoting 7LBAC111 (Reply 8): What you both seem to have lost sight of is that while BOB has bean integrated, fares have decreased. Example - 3 months ago the full YBMI return fare LHR-MAN was £304.00. Today, it is £248.00. A cup of tea is £1.20

3 months ago was summer, of course the flights are more expensive.

I totally agree with you on this score, I really miss the days when I used to fly British Midland and get a superior product. Surely their is enough scope for two 'upper end' airlines in the UK today?

I think now is the time to launch a new airline, its services would be not unlike the BD of old!! What do you think?

Quoting Planesailing (Reply 16): months ago was summer, of course the flights are more expensive

You're quite wrong.

The season has no bearing on it whatsoever. Domestic, trunk route prices don't fluctuate like that. Availability of lower fares might, but base fares remain the same, (generally from March to October, and then October to the following March.) in line with Summer and Winter schedules. Of course there are promotions in between, but only on lower fares. You'll see I refer to the Fully Flexible IATA Base fare (YBMI Fare Basis) - had you read the post.

So to make this a little clearer for you, I used 3 months ago as an example. But the £304.00 fare was loaded on the 28th March, and was reduced 2 weeks or so before the BOB concept took effect, which was August 1st (I think). It will probaly increase a little above £248, on or around 28th October.

BMI tweaked their entire fare structure prior to this strategy to compensate (arguably) for the reduction in on boardservice.

7LBAC111

BMI seem to be having big problems in delivering a BOB service to ALL the passengers on such short hops as MAN-LHR and LHR-CDG etc. They have cut the cabin staff numbers to the bare minimum and yet greatly increased their workload. Plus its the cabin staff, who constantly feel they have to apologise to customers who after years of flying BMi now find they have to pay for everything.

Quoting Orion737 (Reply 19): they have to apologise to customers who after years of flying BMi now find they have to pay for everything.

But Orion, they are paying less to fly now than they did 3-6 months ago! Why is that so difficult for you to understand?

Quoting Orion737 (Reply 19): BMI seem to be having big problems in delivering a BOB service to ALL the passengers on such short hops as MAN-LHR and LHR-CDG etc. They have cut the cabin staff numbers to the bare minimum and yet greatly increased their workload.

Is it they are overworked? Jet2 manage it, EasyJet manage it. Perhaps its an example of morale at BMI that the staff dont, and hence wont adapt to the new standard.

You could change this post to "Laymans View Of....{Insert any legacy airline}"

This is the way airlines have become people, whether you like it or not. Air travel is no longer the luxury that it once was   

Ok, some of my response to certain extracts from this article:

Nigel also visits crew rooms once a month to chat with his staff over a coffee.

"It's morale-boosting for the troops, and I learn a lot from them. I haven't got a monopoly on good ideas.

We know that Nigel, in fact you don't seem to have any!

"There's a turf war with low-cost carriers at Manchester but we are totally confident about bmibaby," says Nigel.

Glad to know someone does!

Nigel, who joined in 1987, has made punctuality and service his main goals.

What service? Has he actually flown with his own airline recently?!

"It's not as if people were dying of hunger.

"Now we can offer better deals and give passengers what they really want.

Funny, perhaps if you listened to most of your customers who are now disgusted with your disorganised airline then you would realise you are fast losing your loyal BMI customers.

What a load of advertising BS, BMI wont be around long the way they're going, the customers are leaving in droves as they get worse and worse. BA must be having a party!

Sam

Quoting Orion737 (Reply 10): Im afraid he does not like me at all,despite saying this is not the case. Its every single time I post that this self-righteous, self-appointed moderator attacks me. I and am glad to see others too, are getting highly sick of it. He doesnt even take the time to read carefully my posts anymore before launching into his personal attacks.

    

[Edited 2005-10-05 22:57:36]

Quoting 7LBAC111 (Reply 11): She only had notes and no change and after a rush around the airport to board, she was denied a cup of tea because she did not have the correct monies to pay.

Now please tell me exactly where it says she will not travel with bmi

Quoting 7LBAC111 (Reply 8): because she has to pay for 'a cuppa' on board

It does not. It says she could not get a cup of tea (as she expected to be able to do from previous journeys with bmi) because (and here I quote verbatim) 'she did not have the correct monies to pay'.

As I said before, read before you leap.

Frankly I have no personal opinions about individuals I have not met. I take each thread at its face value. Yours on this occasion was unnecessarily rude and obviously wrong.

Quoting VV701 (Reply 24): As I said before, read before you leap

With all due respect VV701, how many of Orion's posts vis-à-vis bmi have you read in recent months? Everything always revolves around "fiddling about for change in pockets," "the price of a cuppa," "wont fly them again" etc etc etc... 7LBAC111 is simply highlighting the constant arguments against bmi that we seem to get in every post.

I for one have travelled 10 times on bmi since BOB was launched on various routes, and you know what, I got served - no problems with change, no problems with getting everyone served... Was I a one-off, who knows???

True, it's not the same as it was before, but I would rather pay less for a short hop and do without the nibbles and 'free' (read paid for in the ticket price) drink...

All sounds like a storm in a tea cup to me   

Mark

Quoting Demoose (Reply 26): All sounds like a storm in a tea cup to me

how true!   

VV701, I am adding you to my respected users list. feel free to pop around for a FREE cup of tea whenever you like 

Quoting VV701 (Reply 24): Now please tell me exactly where it says she will not travel with bmi

HERE!!!!!

Quoting Orion737 (Thread starter): unprompted, she has just been telling me about how she wont fly BMI again

and indirectly here

Quoting Orion737 (Thread starter): she will try to avoid them in future.

and hinted at here

Quoting Orion737 (Thread starter): She usually flies economy but always books close to departure and pays a hefty price for her fare. How many other high-end lesiure travellers in addition to business passengers is BMI ailienating with their appalling customer service??

Quoting Antixx (Reply 25): With all due respect VV701, how many of Orion's posts vis-à-vis bmi have you read in recent months? Everything always revolves around "fiddling about for change in pockets," "the price of a cuppa," "wont fly them again" etc etc etc.

Clearly not many.

Quoting Antixx (Reply 25): I for one have travelled 10 times on bmi since BOB was launched on various routes, and you know what, I got served - no problems with change, no problems with getting everyone served... Was I a one-off, who knows???

And my clients combined spend with BMI is £70K per month. And you know what, I haven't had a single complaint from travellers who have not been served. One or two complaining about the drop in service standard, but not because they didnt get served.


7LBAC111

[Edited 2005-10-06 11:15:35]

Taking my critical hat off, my positive view of Bmi is...

A carrier desperatly trying to survive. A carrier trying to come to terms with punctuality also - I have seen significant improvements in punctuality where they can make a difference. They seem to have a spare 321 on the ground at heathrow these days at peak times to switch with a delayed incoming flight - this can make all the difference. Credit where credit is due.

Quoting Antixx (Reply 25): I for one have travelled 10 times on bmi since BOB was launched on various routes, and you know what, I got served - no problems with change, no problems with getting everyone served... Was I a one-off, who knows???

The Bmi Buy on board is working, and I always get served. I try to offer correct change, as they often run out, especially when dealing with € / £ transactions. I prefer BOB as I get the breakfast I want, rather than some inedible egg substance called food. £3.50 for a hot bacon roll isnt expensive.

Quoting Orion737 (Thread starter): She only had notes and no change

Ever heard of these new fangled things called credit cards?

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 30): Ever heard of these new fangled things called credit cards?

Not in my day!

When I was a lad, I only had enough money for a cup of cold tea - without milk or sugar or tea. In fact, I had to drink it from a rolled-up newspaper. But, you know, in those days we were happy even though we had nothing. Rather, BECAUSE we had nothing! My old dad used to say 'money doesn't buy you happiness.' He was right.

Quoting Orion737 (Thread starter): My gran recently flew to LHR from MAN with BMI and I purposely didnt inform her of the changes to BMIs service, to see if she passed comment upon her return. Totally unprompted, she has just been telling me about how she wont fly BMI again.

Well shame on you orion. How could you do that to your poor grandmother ??

After everytihng she has done for you, and all those trips she's paid for you to go on, and you deliberately didn't tell her that she wouldn't be getting a free drink on board. Had she known she could have had a nice cup of Yorkshire Tea before leaving to get the plane and all would be well  

Instead you left her thirsty and angry and then try to blame BMI 

If she'd known in advance her expectations might have been lower, it wouldn't have been a shock and she'd still be flying BMI but packing her own thermos in future.

How could you ?  

Quoting 7LBAC111 (Reply 11): VV701, perhaps you should read some of Orions prior posts and develop a greater understanding of the individual concerned. Maybe then it will make a little more sense!

And you haven't even got to one of his posts about his hearty dislike for any business traveller  

Quoting 7LBAC111 (Reply 18): Quoting Planesailing (Reply 16): months ago was summer, of course the flights are more expensive You're quite wrong. The season has no bearing on it whatsoever. Domestic, trunk route prices don't fluctuate like that. Availability of lower fares might, but base fares remain the same, (generally from March to October, and then October to the following March.) in line with Summer and Winter schedules. Of course there are promotions in between, but only on lower fares. You'll see I refer to the Fully Flexible IATA Base fare (YBMI Fare Basis) - had you read the post. So to make this a little clearer for you, I used 3 months ago as an example. But the £304.00 fare was loaded on the 28th March, and was reduced 2 weeks or so before the BOB concept took effect, which was August 1st (I think). It will probaly increase a little above £248, on or around 28th October.

I don;t think it should make much difference either. In actual fact, although i'd have to check ot be certain, when it comes to flexible more business orientated fares, i'd expect domestic fares to be lower in the summer as there should be lower business demand in August for example as many people ar eon holiday and business can be quiet.

Quoting [email protected] (Reply 31): Not in my day! When I was a lad, I only had enough money for a cup of cold tea - without milk or sugar or tea. In fact, I had to drink it from a rolled-up newspaper. But, you know, in those days we were happy even though we had nothing. Rather, BECAUSE we had nothing! My old dad used to say 'money doesn't buy you happiness.' He was right.

Your day being Devon today 

Quoting A340600 (Reply 22): BA must be having a party!

  

I have been wondering why the Shuttle route has been getting a bit more busy on some days of the week, this must be why.

Had a BMI Exec card holder on the phone asking about our exec club, he seemed pretty annoyed at the whole thing with BMI (Did not help at the time our catering sucked) but hey, we have free tea and a biscuit 

Quoting [email protected] (Reply 31): drink it from a rolled-up newspaper

Posh soft southener showing off about using rolled-up newspaper. When I were a lad, I couldnt even afford yesterdays newspaper.

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 35): Posh soft southener showing off about using rolled-up newspaper. When I were a lad, I couldnt even afford yesterdays newspaper.

Hell, we couldn't even afford a house. There were 100 hundred of us living in shoebox in middle of the road!

Quoting [email protected] (Reply 36): Hell, we couldn't even afford a house. There were 100 hundred of us living in shoebox in middle of the road!

Exactly - 3rd world county  

Quoting Cornish (Reply 37): Exactly - 3rd world county

When you were a lad you had to live in a septic tank, eat hot gravel for breakfast, go down pit for 24 hours a day and when you got home your dad would slice you in two with bread knife. Luxury.

Quoting [email protected] (Reply 38): When you were a lad you had to live in a septic tank, eat hot gravel for breakfast, go down pit for 24 hours a day and when you got home your dad would slice you in two with bread knife. Luxury.

no i just lazed around on the beach all summer - 25 metres in front of the house  

Hi

I've flown several times between in the 1st half of the year between DUB-LHR LHR-DUB. Initially I was flying EI, but then when TAP joined Star Alliance, I've choosen BMI, easier for the connecting flight to Lisbon. Also at that time there was no BoB.

I don't have any complain about them, actually the cabin crew was very helpful with me, as I was carrying a box of crystal glasses (a wedding gift) that couldn't fit in the upper lockers.

About BoB, I have to agree with 7LBAC111, see this example with EI, the flight at 6.50 am from LHR to DUB in EI costs €9 (without airport taxes). A full Irish breakfast costed on board around €7 or €8 with the newspaper included. I spent about 20 euros (+airport taxes) with the flight + breakfast, not bad.

BMI 1st flight to DUB, is around the same price, therefore I don't see a big problem in BoB. You might spend less money with airfare and BoB than having service on board and paying a more expensive fare.

Take Iberia example they are charging for food on board but according to my internet researches the price of the airfares didn't reduce. One can be more annoyed if the cut on service didn't represent a cut in the airfare.

Quoting TAP1972 (Reply 40): Take Iberia example they are charging for food on board but according to my internet researches the price of the airfares didn't reduce. One can be more annoyed if the cut on service didn't represent a cut in the airfare.

Logic sadly incomprehensible to one Orion737 though. 

7LBAC111

oh go off and 'satisfy' one of your businessmen. For a man who manages business travel accounts you spend an awful lots of time on here, digging you claws into me.

Be nice to one of those businessmen and he may take you with him in the C cabin and to share a room at the Holiday Inn 

Quoting Orion737 (Reply 42): For a man who manages business travel accounts you spend an awful lots of time on here, digging you claws into me.

Its called proactive time management Orion. Something you learn at work, you know that thing we do - when you get up early in the morning, drive to your office, sit at a desk for at least 8 hours a day, and actually EARN a living!

Quoting Orion737 (Reply 42): Be nice to one of those businessmen and he may take you with him in the C cabin and to share a room at the Holiday Inn

You may wish to prostitute yourself, but I seriously doubt anyone would pay for you. And I wouldn't go with any businessman if he was staying in anything less than a Sofitel.

7LBAC111

Getting back to the matter in hand, with much disposable income could your Grandparents not think of flying with BA, taking the train to LHR or a chauffeur driven car?

And there's always NetJets  

AE733

Im sure they will fly BA in future. What upset my gran was that she is/was a Midlands girl and has always loved British Midland and kind of stayed loyal to them as they offered a good service.

She flew many times with her mother on British Midland to Jersey, and she has always had a bit of a soft spot for them. I remember flying LHR-PMI on British Midland DC9 in the early 90s and remember the great service on board.

Quoting 7LBAC111 (Reply 43): Its called proactive time management Orion. Something you learn at work, you know that thing we do - when you get up early in the morning, drive to your office, sit at a desk for at least 8 hours a day, and actually EARN a living!

Quoting 7LBAC111 (Reply 43): You may wish to prostitute yourself, but I seriously doubt anyone would pay for you.

Well at least he could TRY and put his arse to some use!

Quoting Catatonic (Reply 46): Quoting 7LBAC111 (Reply 43): You may wish to prostitute yourself, but I seriously doubt anyone would pay for you. Well at least he could TRY and put his arse to some use!

  

Quoting Orion737 (Reply 45): Im sure they will fly BA in future. What upset my gran was that she is/was a Midlands girl and has always loved British Midland and kind of stayed loyal to them as they offered a good service.

And if BA under Willie Walsh go the same way are you going to mean and not tell your granny again when she flies with them??

The shock might be too much for her, bless the old dear  

She is a lady and there arent many of them about these days, a dying breed. Is it so wrong to expect some semblance of service? Its coming to something when an airline cannot provide an old lady with a cup of tea to wash down her blood pressure medication. Especially a woman who has spent thousands of pounds flying british Midland since the days of the Viscounts!

Oh and incidentaly, I would never bend for one of those cheating, bent, smarmy businessmen who cheat on their wives and treat people who arent in management as though they were unclean.

Some businessmen are lovley gentlemen. But not many of them!