Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: Pax Booted Off WN Flight-obscene Word On T-shirt

Fri Oct 07, 2005 4:47 am

I find it absolutely amazing that so many folks have linked so many non-related societal and world issues to this incident, and made some of them referendums on Bush, free speech, etc, etc.

It's really simple common sense, and basic manners. If you go into a restaurant wearing something that says "F*** **** **** and offends other diners, you're going to be asked to cover yourself or return after a change of clothes. It's their restaurant, and thus their rules, and ones that protect other diners from being offended (and parents from having to answer the question from their kids "Mommy, what does F*** mean?")

Why is this such a difficult concept for some to understand?
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
nkops
Posts: 2236
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 10:09 am

RE: Pax Booted Off WN Flight-obscene Word On T-shirt

Fri Oct 07, 2005 4:49 am

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 150):
Why is this such a difficult concept for some to understand?

THANK YOU!!!! this is not political!!
Turn left heading 080 contact departure
 
SBN580
Posts: 374
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 1:55 am

RE: Pax Booted Off WN Flight-obscene Word On T-shirt

Fri Oct 07, 2005 4:54 am

Quoting Nkops (Reply 151):

Yes.  yes 
North Central: Good People Made Their Airline Great! FLY MD-90 POWER! Keep 'em Flying DELTA Family!
 
D950
Posts: 472
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 12:17 am

RE: Pax Booted Off WN Flight-obscene Word On T-shirt

Fri Oct 07, 2005 5:05 am

Quoting Sebolino (Reply 68):
Land of the free ? LOL

Freedom comes with responsibility, any a$$hole can do whatever they want, but most of us have too much class and dignity to do so. My 2cents
Resting on your laurels is a synonym for flirting with disaster
 
access-air
Posts: 1577
Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2000 5:30 pm

RE: Pax Booted Off WN Flight-obscene Word On T-shirt

Fri Oct 07, 2005 5:08 am

I agree with Bond007.

No matter what "rights" she thinks she has to wear that shirt, its implying something that is for most of us NON-POTTY Mouthed people offensive.
Imagine if you will having to explain words of this nature your kids.
Yes, our constitution is contradictory in some cases as it protects each of us equally, but since Southwest Airlines is a company that has ground rules for accepting passengers for transportation, they call the shots, not our constitution. Would you all be so sympathetic for this woman if the reason she was denied boarding was because she was FAT?????
Oh heck no, we would have been subject to a whole bunch of immature attitudes about that and everyone would have agreed to have her big arse kicked off the plane. Then who's rights would be violated.
Plain and simple this woman used poor judgement and wore something she shouldnt have., The agent deemed it offensive to others, Good for that agent. I salute that agent.
Personally I don't have a particular love for our current leader of this country, but I sure as heck wouldn't impose how I felt about it for everyone else to see, especially in a "censored" vulgar way....Sheesh, grow up kiddies...

With all due respect for our European friends, We (USA) do protect those in this country that need freedom of speech and expression, but common decency and self respect and respect for others should be upheld.
Humour is not an excuse for bad taste and poor judgment.

Access-Air
Remember, Wherever you go, there you are!!!!
 
PHLBOS
Posts: 6520
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2004 6:38 am

RE: Pax Booted Off WN Flight-obscene Word On T-shirt

Fri Oct 07, 2005 5:13 am

Quoting SBN580 (Reply 137):
And as for Southwest..... Well, they promote the casual, laid back approach. Their employee attire is this way. They aren't uniforms in the traditional, airline way. They should not be surprised if anything goes amongst their passengers. If this woman were to sue them for surpressing her freedom of speech, I wonder which way it would come down. Southwest's ability as a private company to set a dress code, or her "freedom of speech," on a t-shirt.

Let me ask those who are attempting to turn this thread into a bash Southwest and/or a bash Bush forum a few questions.

1. Had a similar incident (for sake of arguement the t-shirt in question carries only an obscenity but is not politically-motivated) occured on any other carrier and that carrier in question acted similarly (did it occur to anybody that other carriers may have similar to identical Contract of Carriage Rules?); would even half of these posts defending this woman's rights or the shirt's contents ever been posted?

2. How many people here would be still defending her?

3. If the airline in question was not a Texas-based carrier (we'll rule out AA & CO as well), would at least half of the political-related posts (since Bush is from Texas) on this thread even been brought up?

Bottom line is this. She purposely wore the shirt, people complained about its contents, then later gave the WN staff at RNO a hard time when asked to cover or change her shirt; as a result, she was booted off the flight. IMHO, it's WN's plane, it's their rules; if anyone doesn't abide by them... too bad. If the flight was another carrier; the same thing would apply.

Just my  twocents 
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
atct
Posts: 2472
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2001 6:42 am

RE: Pax Booted Off WN Flight-obscene Word On T-shirt

Fri Oct 07, 2005 5:30 am

I argree with the WN action. Flying is a privilege, not a right. The airline reserves the right to deny boarding to any passenger, whatever they do wrong. (albeit they may have to refund the pax.). I myself would be offended by the shirt and I believe that any person who has any dignity or any sense of manners would never wear the shirt in public. Buy it as a gag joke, Yea, Wear it to an anti-bush rally, I could see that. Wear it on a flight in public? No way. My  twocents 
Trikes are for kids!
 
dtwclipper
Posts: 6668
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2003 3:17 am

RE: Pax Booted Off WN Flight-obscene Word On T-shirt

Fri Oct 07, 2005 5:32 am

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 155):
1. Had a similar incident (for sake of arguement the t-shirt in question carries only an obscenity but is not politically-motivated) occured on any other carrier and that carrier in question acted similarly (did it occur to anybody that other carriers may have similar to identical Contract of Carriage Rules?); would even half of these posts defending this woman's rights or the shirt's contents ever been posted?

It did not matter that the shirt was political, just that it was offensive.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 155):
2. How many people here would be still defending her?

Huh?, I think Question 1 answers 2.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 155):
If the airline in question was not a Texas-based carrier (we'll rule out AA & CO as well), would at least half of the political-related posts (since Bush is from Texas) on this thread even been brought up?

Again, and again, it is not political. Vulgarity is vulgarity!
Compare New York Air, the Airline that works for your Business
 
SBN580
Posts: 374
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 1:55 am

RE: Pax Booted Off WN Flight-obscene Word On T-shirt

Fri Oct 07, 2005 5:34 am

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 155):
Let me ask those who are attempting to turn this thread into a bash Southwest and/or a bash Bush forum a few questions.

1. Had a similar incident (for sake of arguement the t-shirt in question carries only an obscenity but is not politically-motivated) occured on any other carrier and that carrier in question acted similarly (did it occur to anybody that other carriers may have similar to identical Contract of Carriage Rules?); would even half of these posts defending this woman's rights or the shirt's contents ever been posted?

The incident could have happened on X-brand Airways from Upper Volta. I do point out that Southwest does promote a casual approach to business, so it is somewhat more likely that their passenger might wonder what all the fuss was about when a non-safety related rule is enforced. I do not avoid an airline just because a politician I don't like is from the state of their HQ. Texas has nothing to do with it. The incident is not political. She is, but the incident is not. Again, I am no fan of Bush, but I do not think her "political" statement via the shirt was appropriate. Plenty of conservatives said vicious things about Clinton that were obscene as well, some wearing shirts I imagine. There are extremists on both sides.
North Central: Good People Made Their Airline Great! FLY MD-90 POWER! Keep 'em Flying DELTA Family!
 
YULWinterSkies
Posts: 1267
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 11:42 pm

RE: Pax Booted Off WN Flight-obscene Word On T-shirt

Fri Oct 07, 2005 5:47 am

Quoting KabAir (Reply 123):
Canada and Europe, bastians of freedom of speech

And proud of it. But not more bastions than the USA. The USA are not nicknamed the "Land of the Free" for nothing. Just that it's less shocking to use words that are "religiously" incorrect. As someone who does not believe in God in neither manner, I just find the "In God we trust" on every US banknote and coin offensive as well.

Note that Canada uses the term "D.G. Regina" instead, which obviously stands for Deus Gratia, but it's not explicite and just applies to the Queen, not everybody. So not really offending to anybody who does not believe in God.

Quoting Slider (Reply 144):
"Daddy, what does F#UCKER mean?"

"Son, it's a very bad insult you'd better not tell to anybody, otherwise you'll be in bad trouble". If some parents are not able to give a better answer, they are not adult enough to have kids. Whereas if they explain all the f###ing details, their kids will still not even know it's the supreme insult.

Quoting SBN580 (Reply 147):
The best humor is often the humor without obsceneities

I agree though. But still not a reason to boot her off the plane. However, still a seroius lak of common sense from that lady.



Now: bonus question: Am I allowed to wear a t-shirt with some beer name on it on a place where people under 21 can see me? This makes me wonder...
When I doubt... go running!
 
JAXFLL
Posts: 90
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 7:20 am

RE: Pax Booted Off WN Flight-obscene Word On T-shirt

Fri Oct 07, 2005 5:53 am

People have the freedom of speech....but not the freedom to be heard. Just because you have a statement to make, that doesn't mean that every news broadcast has to contain your statements.

What I mean is, that you can wear a shirt with free speech, but that doesn't mean that you have the right to wear it anywhere, anyplace, anytime.

Have any of you ever heard of George Carlin? He did a whole comedy act about the 7 words you can't say on broadcast TV. I believe that the F word was on that list. That's an accepted norm in American society that could be changed by the people if they wanted to.

As it has been stated plenty of times, the contract of carriage for Southwest has a statement about offensive clothing. People found it offensive (I'm sure it was more than one person).

If you're Southwest, are you going to piss off a bunch of people by leaving her on the aircraft, or upset one person by kicking them off?

As a side statement, does anyone know if the pilot in command of this aircraft was involved with this incident? As we all know, the pilot has absolute control on an aircraft. If the pilot was offended, he/she could have kicked the person off, no questions asked.
 
B744F
Posts: 2927
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2006 4:52 pm

RE: Pax Booted Off WN Flight-obscene Word On T-shirt

Fri Oct 07, 2005 5:56 am

Quoting Access-Air (Reply 154):
they call the shots, not our constitution.

I can't believe you would say that

Quoting CWAFlyer (Reply 143):
Horseshit. Who was in office when WWII was going on? FDR, the father
of socialism in this country.

He was a Conservative Democrat whos administration used liberal policies to jumpstart a trainwrecked economy. You are still benefiting from it today.

Quoting SBN580 (Reply 146):
But their are certain situations in society where your attire should reflect where you are or what you are doing.

And one of those situations is riding on a transport???

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 145):
Are you calling me a neo-con now!

Where the hell did you get that from? I just said the policies used to curb our rights have always come from the right.
 
bond007
Posts: 4428
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:07 am

RE: Pax Booted Off WN Flight-obscene Word On T-shirt

Fri Oct 07, 2005 5:57 am

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 159):
Now: bonus question: Am I allowed to wear a t-shirt with some beer name on it on a place where people under 21 can see me? This makes me wonder...

How is this related to the word 'F#ck' being printed on a t-shirt???

Advertizing beer is not banned (well most places anyway). Do you really think a t-shirt with 'bud light' on it is as offensive as one with 'F#ck' on it??

...but to answer your question. If it were airline policy not to wear t-shirts advertising beer, then NO, it would not be allowed.... but it is, and offensive clothing is not.

Again...simple stuff folks.


Jimbo

[Edited 2005-10-06 23:03:51]
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
legion242
Posts: 217
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2005 10:18 am

RE: Pax Booted Off WN Flight-obscene Word On T-shirt

Fri Oct 07, 2005 6:11 am

This thread is getting repetitive and boring.

The women had the "right" to wear the shirt and the "right" to be an obnoxious moron.
WN had the "right" to take her off of the a/c due to customer complaints- the majority wins.

I'll say again, this women is one of the reasons I don't fly WN.
I'm so stuck in the old days that I still wear slacks and a button down on 99% of my flights.
Don't make me release the monkeys!!
 
MCOtoATL
Posts: 448
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 1999 12:01 pm

RE: Pax Booted Off WN Flight-obscene Word On T-shirt

Fri Oct 07, 2005 6:12 am

I recently saw a T-shirt with two male stick figures having sexual relations. There was a line through it and underneath in big red letters it said, "Stop AIDS." Tell me that such a picture would not be offensive to some of you. While many of you bash Americans for having values, I am proud that many in our culture would be offended by a T-shirt. I would like to think we are above such juvenile antics. I am not a fan of censorship, but an adult should be respectful of children and what they see.
 
lh477
Posts: 567
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2004 11:23 am

RE: Pax Booted Off WN Flight-obscene Word On T-shirt

Fri Oct 07, 2005 6:13 am

Where does it stop though.......Today it's fuc$ers, tomorrow it could stupid....then it's a slippary slope........Before you know it, you are in the USSR.......
Come on you gunners......!!!!!
 
Braniff727
Posts: 656
Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2000 2:25 am

RE: Pax Booted Off WN Flight-obscene Word On T-shirt

Fri Oct 07, 2005 6:35 am

Quoting DocChaos (Reply 2):
As a paying passenger, he/she is allowed to wear whatever he/she decides to.

That is incorrect. On private property, you have to obey the rules, or you can be escorted off property.

For instance, Walt Disney World has a dress code. If you were to try to wear the t-shirt in question there, you would not be allowed into the park. If you cover up the shirt, you would, but if you uncover it again while in the park, you will be asked to leave.

How can they do this after you paid? They own the land, not you. It is not public space, and therefore can refuse service to anyone for any reason. If they do not reimburse you for what you have paid for admittance, then you could take legal action, but essentially only for the money spent / lost on admission. Disney, however is likely to refund your money on the spot if they remove you from one of their parks.

The US Constitution gives you the right to free speech, it does not give you the right to be heard.
Climbing
 
bond007
Posts: 4428
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:07 am

RE: Pax Booted Off WN Flight-obscene Word On T-shirt

Fri Oct 07, 2005 6:41 am

Quoting LH477 (Reply 165):
Where does it stop though.......Today it's fuc$ers, tomorrow it could stupid....then it's a slippary slope........Before you know it, you are in the USSR.......

Oh be real !!!

It's stops when it's not offensive. I think most people here agree it's offensive and vulgar, whether they think she has a 'right' to wear it or not.

There is no slippery slope, it's plain and simple but seemingly tough for some people to understand.

Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
ckfred
Posts: 5185
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2001 12:50 pm

RE: Pax Booted Off WN Flight-obscene Word On T-shirt

Fri Oct 07, 2005 6:55 am

I don't blame Southwest for putting her off the plane. Six Flags amusement parks have the same rules. Turning a t-shirt inside out is not an option, since the person could just turn it right side out after going through the turnstyles. The options are buying a Six Flags shirt, a plain shirt, or leaving.

Even my wife's employer has cracked down. Unless it's a a company or client shirt, employees can't wear shirts with words or large logos. Now, Lauren polo players or LaCoste crocodile shirts are allowed, since the logo is small. But too many people were wearing rock-concert t-shirts to the office, so now, people can't wear college sweatshirts or clothes with professional sports logos. The Cub fans complained in '03, and the White Sox fans are now complaining, but management isn't budging.
 
bullpitt
Posts: 757
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 7:09 am

RE: Pax Booted Off WN Flight-obscene Word On T-shirt

Fri Oct 07, 2005 7:02 am

Hey boys I can't believe what we are arguing about here. But one thing for sure. I sure thank GOD I live in Spain.
These are my principles but if you don't like them I have others
 
mham001
Posts: 5745
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:52 am

RE: Pax Booted Off WN Flight-obscene Word On T-shi

Fri Oct 07, 2005 7:30 am

Quoting LH477 (Reply 165):
Where does it stop though.......Today it's fuc$ers, tomorrow it could stupid....then it's a slippary slope........Before you know it, you are in the USSR.......

It is interesting how out Canadian and European friends have misinterpreted our Free Sppech rights. There have alwys been societal limits on the use of vulgar speech, however it would not land a person in jail. The use of the F word for instance is not used on public, free airwaves. What has happened in the last two decades has been a gradual slip of Free Speech rights. Now I know Our Euro and Canadian friends will jump at the Christian Right, George Bush, the Republicans, God, and Halliburton et al as the source of the degrading of US Free Speech rights, but I'd like to point out that this attack has come from the other side of the political spectrum.
College universities are routinely prohibited from publishing certain thoughts, words, etc. Laws have been passed against the use of certain words and phrases. They are now considered "hate speech" and are jailable offenses. There have even been attempts to punish those who are believed to even think in certain ways. This all falls under the general banner of political correctness. This campaign has been the most successful attack on US Free Speech rights in the history of the constitution. Ironically, it comes from the same spectrum that would be the first to attack the current administration. The election of the current administration is in large part a backlash against those ideas. They have reaped what they have sown.
 
TransIsland
Posts: 1826
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 9:22 pm

RE: Pax Booted Off WN Flight-obscene Word On T-shirt

Fri Oct 07, 2005 7:55 am

On Trans Island Virtual Airways she would have been UPGRADED with that t-shirt  Wink

However, I do understand that people who don't share mine (and her) political opinion may not see the humour in it. But take a look at this:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitut...ution.billofrights.html#amendmenti
I'm an aviation expert. I have Sky Juice for breakfast.
 
redngold
Posts: 6686
Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2000 12:26 pm

RE: Pax Booted Off WN Flight-obscene Word On T-shi

Fri Oct 07, 2005 8:05 am

Sorry if this has been posted already, but...

Has anyone considered the effect if this woman boarded an aircraft and then someone on board became angry and started a fight at 35,000 ft.?

It seems to me this might fall into the "shouting fire in a crowded theatre" category. If Southwest can prove that it excluded this woman from boarding because of safety and security concerns, then they are justified.


redngold
/For what it's worth, I don't like Bush, Cheney, and Rice either, so don't even go there.
Up, up and away!
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: Pax Booted Off WN Flight-obscene Word On T-shirt

Fri Oct 07, 2005 8:12 am

Quoting TransIsland (Reply 171):
I do understand that people who don't share mine (and her) political opinion

It's not the politics . . . for 500th time . . . it's not the politics . . . don'you people get it?

Stupid Question ANCFlyer - of course they don't get it or the question would be moot!

Quoting LH477 (Reply 165):
Where does it stop though.......Today it's fuc$ers, tomorrow it could stupid....then it's a slippary slope........Before you know it, you are in the USSR.......

May I have exageration for a $100, please Alex!

Quoting MCOtoATL (Reply 164):
Tell me that such a picture would not be offensive to some of you.

I'm straight as an arrow and it's offensive to me . . . .like I said earlier in this thread - some people's kids.  irked 

Quoting Legion242 (Reply 163):
I'm so stuck in the old days that I still wear slacks and a button down on 99% of my flights.

 checkmark 
Because you were raised properly - raised to NOT be an asshole - raised to respect others . . . unlike the riff raff coming out of neighborhoods today . . .

I left this thread earlier today, different airport, about reply #77 . . . I can't believe it's still beating the same dead horse.

Bottom line: Improperly raised little wench wears Improper attire for a plane ride. Airlines say, NOOOO. Wench gets shit canned from airplane. Airline legally and morally correct. Little wench can change shirt or walk.

Next?
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
komododx
Posts: 1734
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2004 4:40 am

RE: Pax Booted Off WN Flight-obscene Word On T-shirt

Fri Oct 07, 2005 8:14 am

Funny this topic comes up. I have a ton of French Connection t-shirts. Always wondered if I would be let on flights. I have one with a big FCUK in the front in white with a black background. No probs though on EI or AA. Although considering how prude people are in the US I wouldn't try to wear it again while flying.

Stefano  wave 
I'm homeless and unemployed
 
Nordair
Posts: 1080
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2005 1:36 am

RE: Pax Booted Off WN Flight-obscene Word On T-shirt

Fri Oct 07, 2005 8:25 am

Quoting CWAFlyer (Reply 143):
FDR, the father
of socialism in this country.

 rotfl 
"It is never legitimate to use the words of scripture to promote a loveless agenda." - Right Rev. Dr. Peter Short
 
HPRamper
Posts: 5022
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 4:22 am

RE: Pax Booted Off WN Flight-obscene Word On T-shirt

Fri Oct 07, 2005 8:28 am

The only problem with socialism is the people that try to institute it.
 
Blackbird1331
Posts: 1741
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2004 10:47 am

RE: Pax Booted Off WN Flight-obscene Word On T-shirt

Fri Oct 07, 2005 8:37 am

They managed to manhandle a passenger. Now, if they could control the filth we hear on the streets, in stores, on the airways, and at work. What hypocricy!
Cameras shoot pictures. Guns shoot people. They have the guns.
 
Boeing747_600
Posts: 608
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 1999 4:01 am

RE: Pax Booted Off WN Flight-obscene Word On T-shirt

Fri Oct 07, 2005 8:41 am

Quoting CWAFlyer (Reply 125):
So if this woman had worn a shirt that had some derogotory remark
or language/slang about an ethnic group, religion, or skin color
would that be okay because it's freedom of speech? I didn't think so.

Well, your sentiments are shared and appreciated, but the fact of the matter is that it remains protected speech

Quoting Legion242 (Reply 163):
The women had the "right" to wear the shirt and the "right" to be an obnoxious moron.
WN had the "right" to take her off of the a/c due to customer complaints- the majority wins.

The majority wins?!?! Perhaps you arent aware that the bill of rights is not subject to a popularity contest.

Quoting TPAPDX (Reply 132):
Airlines use of "taxpayer supported facilities" does not mean an extension of those public rights to private entities, in any such form.

This statement is based on some very wishful thinking on your part. The incontrovertible fact (horrendous as it may seem to you) is that while there MAY be reasonable restrictions on the exercise of some expressions of freedom based on expediency and practical considerations (things that I have noted in previous posts), under NO circumstances do basic civil rights and freedom of expression cease to exist on a commercial airplane.

Quoting TPAPDX (Reply 132):

In fact, those facilities are supported by an excise tax on airline tickets, not from the general fund of the U.S. government. So that $200 round-trip ticket you just bought, includes about $25 dollars taxes to support the infrastructure, facilities, airways, airports, and provide security.

For one thing, the system is hardly self-supported by these taxes. And moreover, whos pays these taxes?! The general flying public. You and I and everyone else including the lady with the questionable taste in attire. So that dosent add an iota to your already weak argument.

Quoting TPAPDX (Reply 132):

Just because you use a taxpayer supported public road to reach my private home, doesn't give you the right to pull in my driveway, get out of your car, and do or say what your want. Your "public" rights end the moment you set foot on my private property. The same goes the moment you set foot on a aircraft.

A completely ridiculous analogy. Your house and a company (especially one that's publicly traded) are not entitled to the same level of protection when it comes to enforcing freedom of expression by others who happen to be on the property in question.

[Edited 2005-10-07 01:46:32]
 
Nordair
Posts: 1080
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2005 1:36 am

RE: Pax Booted Off WN Flight-obscene Word On T-shirt

Fri Oct 07, 2005 8:45 am

Quoting Slider (Reply 118):

I saw some redneck dude here with a t-shirt out in public that said "F#ck Ya'll, I'm from Texas." Charming, I'm sure. This is on a Saturday afternoon in public with tons of people running around. I spoke up politely. Instantly, he tells me to F myself, gets all belligerent, etc...society is doomed if those people win for the sake of their precious "rights" that the selectively abuse, enforce and don't even understand the commensurate responsibilities that accompany them.

The guy undoubtedly looked like a total fool strutting around in public with his T-shirt. And by going over to point out the error of his ways, you both looked like fools.

While I can applaud your desire to make the world more civil and improve standards, I ask you stop for a moment and think. Do you honestly believe that anyone who was willing to wear a T-shirt bearing such a pronouncement publicly would be receptive to hearing criticisms from you?? You ought not to have been surprised by his reaction.

The fellow who was wearing that T-shirt did so not because it was the most comfortable item of clothing he owns. He did it because he wanted attention. He wanted people to notice. And you gave him what he wanted. He might even have been waiting all day for someone to challenge him on his attire. And again, you gave him what he wanted.

Personally, I hesitate to give people what they want.
"It is never legitimate to use the words of scripture to promote a loveless agenda." - Right Rev. Dr. Peter Short
 
PHLBOS
Posts: 6520
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2004 6:38 am

RE: Pax Booted Off WN Flight-obscene Word On T-shirt

Fri Oct 07, 2005 8:47 am

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 157):
Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 155):
1. Had a similar incident (for sake of arguement the t-shirt in question carries only an obscenity but is not politically-motivated) occured on any other carrier and that carrier in question acted similarly (did it occur to anybody that other carriers may have similar to identical Contract of Carriage Rules?); would even half of these posts defending this woman's rights or the shirt's contents ever been posted?

It did not matter that the shirt was political, just that it was offensive.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 155):
2. How many people here would be still defending her?

Huh?, I think Question 1 answers 2.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 155):
If the airline in question was not a Texas-based carrier (we'll rule out AA & CO as well), would at least half of the political-related posts (since Bush is from Texas) on this thread even been brought up?

Again, and again, it is not political. Vulgarity is vulgarity!

DtwClipper,

You completely missed the whole point and purpose of my earlier post. My comments and 'what-if' scenario was primarily directed towards the many individuals who lobbed political remarks and even made comments along the lines (paraphrases) like, "Well Southwest is from Texas and Texas is mostly conservative, so..." or "Southwest has a casual atmosphere, so..."

The primary point to the 'what-if' scenario I listed was that had the airline been Brand Y and the shirt only contained just the obscenity (but not political innuendos), and had the same exact result (passenger getting kicked off the connecting flight) occured; would the tone of the comments being posted here be any different? I'm not saying that there wouldn't be opposing sides on this issue just commenting on the tone & intensity of the replies. I would say offhand that at least half of the off-the-wall or mean-spirited comments from those on this thread (in defense of the woman) unfortunately fall in either the usual political overtones/rants and/or usual Southwest/WalMart clientele rants.

I AGREE WITH YOU 100% that the issue regarding the woman's t-shirt is vulgarity. IMHO, WN did the right thing and acted properly.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
PHLBOS
Posts: 6520
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2004 6:38 am

RE: Pax Booted Off WN Flight-obscene Word On T-shirt

Fri Oct 07, 2005 8:57 am

Quoting SBN580 (Reply 158):
The incident could have happened on X-brand Airways from Upper Volta. I do point out that Southwest does promote a casual approach to business, so it is somewhat more likely that their passenger might wonder what all the fuss was about when a non-safety related rule is enforced.

WN having a more casual approach to business, YES.
WN having absolutely zero rules or policies of docurum beyond the required FAA guidelines, NO.

Quoting SBN580 (Reply 158):
Texas has nothing to do with it.

I agree with you on that; I was merely pointing out that there have been several replies on this thread that attempted to do otherwise.

[Edited 2005-10-07 01:59:47]
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
dtwclipper
Posts: 6668
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2003 3:17 am

RE: Pax Booted Off WN Flight-obscene Word On T-shirt

Fri Oct 07, 2005 8:59 am

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 180):
I AGREE WITH YOU 100% that the issue regarding the woman's t-shirt is vulgarity. IMHO, WN did the right thing and acted properly.

Oh, guess I picked the wrong day to stop drinking! The withdrawls must have done it to me...sorry.
Compare New York Air, the Airline that works for your Business
 
TPAPDX
Posts: 60
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2005 2:07 am

RE: Pax Booted Off WN Flight-obscene Word On T-shirt

Fri Oct 07, 2005 9:20 am

Quoting Boeing747_600 (Reply 178):
This statement is based on some very wishful thinking on your part. The incontrovertible fact (horrendous as it may seem to you) is that while there MAY be reasonable restrictions on the exercise of some expressions of freedom based on expediency and practical considerations (things that I have noted in previous posts), under NO circumstances do basic civil rights and freedom of expression cease to exist on a commercial airplane.

You must live in LALA land. Freedom of expression is a not a "basic" civil right that can be imposed on privately owned entities. I own a business, and trust me on this, I can refuse you service for any reason, you don't have the right to come into my office and say whatever you want - if I don't like it, or you, I will ask you to leave - if you refuse, the police will remove you. In Southwest situation, you actually enter into a contract with them when you buy a ticket that spells out the fact that they can, and will at their sole discretion, refuse you service for various reasons.

Quoting Boeing747_600 (Reply 178):
For one thing, the system is hardly self-supported by these taxes. And moreover, whos pays these taxes?! The general flying public. You and I and everyone else including the lady with the questionable taste in attire. So that dosent add an iota to your already weak argument.

The "system" you speak of is more than adequately funded by the excise taxes imposed on airline tickets, and paid and remitted by the airlines to the FAA, airports, and other governmental agencies. As a matter of fact, the Government often taps into these funds for general uses, not for aviation uses. Of course, without reimbursement the aviation trust fund. The fund, in reality, is over-funded, and under-spent on aviation projects.

Quoting Boeing747_600 (Reply 178):
A completely ridiculous analogy. Your house and a company (especially one that's publicly traded) are not entitled to the same level of protection when it comes to enforcing freedom of expression by others who happen to be on the property in question.

This is not a ridiculous analogy at all. You seem to be confusing a "publicly" traded company, with one that is owned by the public, ie: government. A "publicly" traded company is in fact a privately owned enterprise. You seem to infer that "publicly" traded companies are part of the public domain, which of course, they are not. They ARE entitled to the protection of your desired freedom of speach, expression, etc.
 
swisskloten
Posts: 317
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: Pax Booted Off WN Flight-obscene Word On T-shirt

Fri Oct 07, 2005 9:28 am

Quoting Oldeuropean (Reply 45):
Oh my good, you poor inhibited bigot America. Here in Europe nobody would care about something like this.

Seriously, what if someone boards an LH plane at FRA with a massive swastika shirt that says "Heil Hitler!" Would that be legal even if people are offended or outraged?
 
vv701
Posts: 5895
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 10:54 am

RE: Pax Booted Off WN Flight-obscene Word On T-shirt

Fri Oct 07, 2005 9:34 am

I think that the contents of this thread are indicative of the general trend to a more liberal approach as time passes.

I have only read the first 70 replies. Where the reply strongly supports the wearing of the t-shirt I have checked the user profile. The vast majority fell into the 21-25 age group, three in the 26-35 age group and two (both European) in the 36-45 age group.

Of course the first 70 replies may not be typical. But if they are it is clear that the younger generation is more tolerant and liberal than the older generations.

So this raises an important question. 'Should the younger generation be free to behave in a manner that is acceptable to their peers but offends their elders?' The answer must be 'Yes'. But there is an equally important question. It is 'Should the younger generation behave in a manner that is acceptable to their peers but offends their elders?' I believe that here the answer to this a qualified 'No.' When in public everybody should behave in a way that is acceptable to a majority and not just their peers. The lady on the plane clearly was not in compliance with a majority view. She should therefore have complied with the airline's request and she did not.
 
Kyril
Posts: 118
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2002 1:00 pm

RE: Pax Booted Off WN Flight-obscene Word On T-shirt

Fri Oct 07, 2005 10:03 am

I flew once on AF with a friend that has pamela's brest...
She was wearing a t-shirt that depicted exactly what was under it as a photo-print  Smile.

Three persons complained, I'll let you guess where they came from... The crew didn't have any problems with it... And the "staff" that complained at the ground at CDG was MEA's boarding agents next to our boarding room.
AF staff told them to shut up.

I also seen recently in the train a guy having a t shirt with a drawing of chirac naked, with handcuffs, a ball-gag, a dildo in where there's room for, and his wife weeping him saying "lick sarkozy's boots b*tch!"

The whole car was amazed...

Does only the "old Europe" is able to make fun of her representative ?
Kyril
 
lincoln
Posts: 3133
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2004 11:22 pm

RE: Pax Booted Off WN Flight-obscene Word On T-shirt

Fri Oct 07, 2005 11:05 am

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 47):
As to how to define what is 'offensive' in public in the USA does have rules as to commercial (not cable/satallite only channels) TV and Radio broadcasting as to words you cannot use, beheavors, as well as nudity on the air.

I have way too much of a headache now to look it up, but AFAIK and IIRC it essentailly applies to all channels except those which are restricted/controlled access (i.e. HBOs and the like)

The 'indecency' restriction is essentailly (again IIRC) "words, phrases, or actions that describe a sexual, excratory, or reproductive function in a manner that is patently offensive as measured using contemporary community satandards and not for bonafied scientific or artistic purposes". 'Obscene' is a different set of rules with much tighter restrictions. (and note, that for broadcast purposes, "contemporary community standards" are the standards of the community where the broadcast was made... not necessarially the entire US)

I think Southwest was perfectly within (if possibly slightly pushing) their rights as outlined in the Contract of Carriage and the application of common sense.

Lincoln
CO Is My Airline of Choice || Baggage Claim is an airline's last chance to disappoint a customer || Next flts in profile
 
efcar98
Posts: 131
Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 1:57 am

RE: Pax Booted Off WN Flight-obscene Word On T-shirt

Fri Oct 07, 2005 11:20 am

two days ago at dulles i saw a guy board a flight wearing a shirt with the words upside down "If you can read this, I'm eating your pussy" and i was kind of offended reading it despite my young age
 
B707Stu
Posts: 893
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 4:15 pm

RE: Pax Booted Off WN Flight-obscene Word On T-shirt

Fri Oct 07, 2005 11:29 am

This story really ticks me off. I am so sick of my country becoming some kind of police state where people who weren't anywhere near the 9/11 happenings (i was 6 blocks away and ran for my life) feel empowered to inhibit freedom, the very thing we're fighting for, or supposedly. Bring on next November, I can't wait.
 
bond007
Posts: 4428
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:07 am

RE: Pax Booted Off WN Flight-obscene Word On T-shirt

Fri Oct 07, 2005 11:30 am

Quoting EFCar98 (Reply 188):
"If you can read this, I'm eating your pussy"

Did you tell him how wrong he was  Wink


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
Kyril
Posts: 118
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2002 1:00 pm

RE: Pax Booted Off WN Flight-obscene Word On T-shirt

Fri Oct 07, 2005 11:33 am

Quoting Lincoln (Reply 187):
'Obscene' is a different set of rules with much tighter restrictions.

War, is obscene. Seeing a guy killing himself on a highway filmed by an helicopter at 7 pm news is obscene. Seeing 2 planes crashing in towers is obscene. Having an airline booting someone off cause he expressed on a shirt his political views is obscene.
Having a 5 years old child dying of hunger is obscene
But a shirt saying that the white house is full of sh*t is not obscene !

This so called morality and nonstop politically-correct is obscene.

Why America is always so puritan ? It could be understandable if it was the same for violence !
You can see a guy shooting himself at the evening news but you can't see a tit at the superbowl or can't express your political views ?
Wow "Land of Freedom" got lost in translation !

Kyril

[Edited 2005-10-07 04:35:24]
 
Kyril
Posts: 118
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2002 1:00 pm

RE: Pax Booted Off WN Flight-obscene Word On T-shirt

Fri Oct 07, 2005 11:49 am

Quoting Swisskloten (Reply 184):
Seriously, what if someone boards an LH plane at FRA with a massive swastika shirt that says "Heil Hitler!" Would that be legal even if people are offended or outraged?

This will be the exception in Germany and France as expressing racist, homophobic, antisemite, nazi etc views is considered pushing to an act of violence thus can drive you to jail very quickly. But you can go in the street and be extremly disespectfull to the president and no one will care...

As far as I know more than 6 millions humans where precisely exterminated by the nazis, i don't think the democrats guys saying bush and rice are f*ckers killed anybody ...

Kyril

[Edited 2005-10-07 04:50:02]

[Edited 2005-10-07 04:51:03]
 
jetdeltamsy
Posts: 2688
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2000 11:51 am

RE: Pax Booted Off WN Flight-obscene Word On T-shirt

Fri Oct 07, 2005 11:56 am

She is an idiot for wearing that shirt in public.

The language on the shirt is offensive to the vast majority of average folks out there.

She should have never been allowed to board in the first place.

What are people thinking when they do things like that? How can people be so self-centered that they think anything is OK if it's OK with them.

I saw the lady interviewed on the news tonight. She was very proper on camera. She claims it's a freedom of speech issue. What bull.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
N200WN
Posts: 696
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 7:09 am

RE: Pax Booted Off WN Flight-obscene Word On T-shirt

Fri Oct 07, 2005 12:13 pm

Quoting Bullpitt (Reply 169):
Hey boys I can't believe what we are arguing about here. But one thing for sure. I sure thank GOD I live in Spain

Would that be the same Spain that recently elected a socialist government? Hmmm, sure to be more freedom there than in the US.

[Edited 2005-10-07 05:29:48]
 
MUWarriors
Posts: 199
Joined: Wed May 04, 2005 12:11 pm

RE: Pax Booted Off WN Flight-obscene Word On T-shirt

Fri Oct 07, 2005 12:21 pm

Honestly, its not a question of legality, because WN, being a private business, has the legal right to do so, I disagree with their decision, but it is their right. Its a question of how they handled it and that is unclear. The articles that I have read state that she boarded the plane, and flew the first leg without incident. It was when passengers were getting on for the second leg that things got bad. Now should WN have thrown her off the plane at that point, or apologized to the passengers on board who were offended, inform the woman of the policy, so the next time she flew she wouldn't have an excuse, and let her complete her trip. In terms of PR, that was the way to go, the people who were offended likely would not boycott WN because of this, and they would not have gotten any negative press.

However, by kicking her off in RNO, they left her halfway through her trip. Now she went to the papers, and complained, and has subsequently decided to sue for what to me seems like roughly $300-600 (rental car, gas, unused tickets). By letting her on the plane, and fly the first leg without incident, did WN open up a can of worms, by implying, at least initially, that it was OK, and booting her off halfway made them liable for the remainder of her trip. I don't know the answer, and lawyers will duke it out (although I bet if she is asking for as little as the news states WN will give her the money to shut her up). I think that is the real issue here. Had they denied boarding in the first place, or just let her finish the trip this whole thing would be a non-issue.
 
MDorBust
Posts: 4914
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 10:10 pm

RE: Pax Booted Off WN Flight-obscene Word On T-shirt

Fri Oct 07, 2005 12:29 pm

She has every right to wear that shirt.

Southwest has every right to deny her service on their aircraft based on the shirt.

They really should have just asked her to turn it inside out though  Sad
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
arkhem
Posts: 125
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2004 12:23 pm

RE: Pax Booted Off WN Flight-obscene Word On T-shi

Fri Oct 07, 2005 12:31 pm

This incident is so American. I'm glad she decided to file a lawsuit. Southwest will probably settle ASAP.

[Edited 2005-10-07 05:33:57]
 
MDorBust
Posts: 4914
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 10:10 pm

RE: Pax Booted Off WN Flight-obscene Word On T-shirt

Fri Oct 07, 2005 12:38 pm

Quoting Arkhem (Reply 197):
I'm glad she decided to file a lawsuit. SW will probably settle ASAP.

Please understand that under American law, she stands no chance of winning a court battle.

With Southwest being a southern based company, it might actually be in their best interst to publicly stand up to this lady, and counter sue her under new laws to reclaim any legal costs.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
MUWarriors
Posts: 199
Joined: Wed May 04, 2005 12:11 pm

RE: Pax Booted Off WN Flight-obscene Word On T-shirt

Fri Oct 07, 2005 12:43 pm

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 196):
They really should have just asked her to turn it inside out though

From what I read, they did and she refused, and chose to leave. The article also states that "After several conversations with flight attendants, Heasley agreed to cover the words by cuddling up with a sweatshirt." Now why the hell she didn't just throw the sweatshirt on, and take it off when they landed, is beyond me. Maybe she wanted to be a martyr for this cause, but I think she looks foolish, as does WN for waiting until halfway through the trip to do something. It was poorly handled all around, and really could have been a non-issue if either party would have done 1 minor thing differently. The article I read was:

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/news/2005-10-06-swa-tshirt_x.htm

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