Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
Quoting Glom (Thread starter): The key disadvantage to the 747ADV is that it is effectively the end of the line. In the simple 747ADV vs A388 it may have an edge, but the A380 is more than the just the A388. That family has room for growth and advancement. |
Quoting Glom (Thread starter): The key disadvantage to the 747ADV is that it is effectively the end of the line. In the simple 747ADV vs A388 it may have an edge, but the A380 is more than the just the A388. That family has room for growth and advancement. |
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 7): Here is something to thing about....doesn't bode too well for the B747/A380 in China... no |
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 7): source: http://www.boeing.com/randy/archives....html |
Quoting Zvezda (Reply 2): Airlines don't buy future prospective families of airplanes. They buy real concrete airliners. I see no advantage for the WhaleJet on this basis. |
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 7): while 747-size and larger airplanes will decrease their [proportion]. |
Quoting Zvezda (Reply 2): Airlines don't buy future prospective families of airplanes. They buy real concrete airliners. I see no advantage for the WhaleJet on this basis. |
Quoting Stitch (Reply 4): So Airbus pushes "capacity" where Boeing pushes "frequency". |
Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 10): Doesn't Dragon Air have 747's as well? |
Quoting Vincewy (Reply 5): |
Quoting Glareskin (Reply 14): Isn't it strange in this perspective that the Japanese airlines fully ignore the A380 (Airbus) and even confirmed their loyalty to Boeing? |
Quoting Leskova (Reply 11): Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 10): Doesn't Dragon Air have 747's as well? So does Cathay Pacific, but both aren't - in this case - technically China: they're both from Hong Kong. |
Quoting Zvezda (Reply 2): Airlines don't buy future prospective families of airplanes. They buy real concrete airliners. I see no advantage for the WhaleJet on this basis. |
Quoting Calags (Reply 8): Might I qualify this statement by adding that "Airlines that are run as businesses buy concrete airliners."? |
Quoting Gigneil (Reply 12): That is absolutely, positively, undoubtedly not the case. |
Quoting JetMaster (Reply 15): The Japanese carriers own the majority of losts at NRT which makes the A380 less attractive to them in terms of increasing capacity. The same can be said for BA at LHR. |
Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 10): Doesn't Dragon Air have 747's as well? |
Quoting PM (Reply 9): Since there are only 19 747-size and larger airplanes in China (all 747s with Air China) the "proportion" couldn't fall by much! |
Quoting Jet-lagged (Reply 19): Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 10): Doesn't Dragon Air have 747's as well? Nope. At least not any passenger versions. |
Quoting Jet-lagged (Reply 19): To me it makes perfect sense that you won't see a need from the China side for A380s. |
Quoting Zvezda (Reply 17): Sorry, I don't buy the argument that airlines would choose the WhaleJet over the JumboJet because of the hypothetical possibility that Airbus may perhaps someday offer an A380-900 of currently unknowable specifications. While State Owned Enterprises do things even more bizarre than that, private companies generally do not. Airlines will choose between the WhaleJet and the JumboJet primarily based on each aircraft's performance on expected missions and total cost of ownership. |
Quoting Calags (Reply 8): Well, considering that Randy is marketing Boeing planes and the official Boeing line is that VLA aircraft repesents only a tiny part of future markets it is hardly surprising that he spouts the party line. Although I visit his blog almost every day I have to admit I take his comments (and Leahy's) with a grain of salt. Personally, I happen to think that they (Boeing) are correct but have only my gut feeling to back it up. I am just looking forward to seeing how everything turns out. |
Quoting PM (Reply 16): Exactly. And note that our Randy doesn't comment on the "proportion" of "747 or bigger" planes anticipated there! |
Quoting Vincewy (Reply 5): 747ADV needs to be built, at least for the next 20 years, not just filling the gap between 773/A346 and A380, but it can get to airports not ready for A380... |
Quoting Jet-lagged (Reply 19): To me it makes perfect sense that you won't see a need from the China side for A380s |
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 22): Actually, I'm quite curious of Airbus' view (forcasts about the VLA in China)...unfortunately I haven't seen it anywhere...if anyone has a link, it would be well appreciated. |
Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 10): Doesn't Dragon Air have 747's as well? |
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 22): I think the point of his (Baseler's) comment was that demand trends in China are patterning those in Europe and the United States.....more "point-to-point" with smaller aircraft than the VLA........ |
Quoting Dazeflight (Reply 21): several airlines have already asked for the A380-900.. |
Quoting Zvezda (Reply 30): Evidence? |
Quoting Jet-lagged (Reply 19): My opinion is that the aviation market will look a lot more like the North American model. |
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 3): Boeing will still have an advantage in the VLA market, after the B-747-ADV. By then it will have enough experience from working with composites, from the B-787, to design a composite VLA. But, I doubt it will be bigger than the A-380-900, as that airplane, and its smaller -800 sister will have made the needed airport infastructure changes a reality. With the lower fuel comsumption that composites offer, Boeing will be positioning themselves very well. |
Quoting SparkingWave (Reply 18): Jetmaster, you have hit it on the nose! The case for the A380 mostly works for carriers that can't get more flights into big hubs. Welcome to the A380 - the ultimate slot machine! |
Quoting Dazeflight (Reply 21): I guess that's why several airlines have already asked for the A380-900... |
Quoting Glom (Thread starter): The A380 offers more prospects for the longer term. It's not so limiting. |
Quoting Glareskin (Reply 14): Isn't it strange in this perspective that the Japanese airlines fully ignore the A380 (Airbus) and even confirmed their loyalty to Boeing? |
Quoting Jet-lagged (Reply 19): Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 10): Doesn't Dragon Air have 747's as well? Nope. At least not any passenger versions. A330s and A320s. |
Quote: About Us Dragonair Cargo has seen substantial growth in both capacity and tonnage uplifted in recent years. The cargo space in our Airbus has been boosted significantly by the establishment of a dedicated cargo fleet, comprising three Boeing 747-300SF freighters, one Boeing 747-200F freighter and one Airbus A300B4. This saw Dragonair carry a total of 270,000 tonnes in 2003, a 39.1% increase over 2002. Dragonair Cargo is now one of the major revenue sources for the airline, accounting for a significant portion of total turnover. |
Quoting Eha (Reply 24): Airbus Global market forecast (Boeing does the same) : http://www.airbus.com/store/mm_repos...e.pdf |
Quoting PM (Reply 27): I daresay that's what he intended but I'm not sure it's an argument I buy. Point-to-point may be carrying the day in the US (though I'm not entirely convinced) but most big European airlines still cleave to one or perhaps two hubs. BA have dipped their toe in the waters of intercontinental flights from MAN, BHX and GLA but they seem deeply reluctant to embrace the concept fully. AF are even more reluctant to divert business away from their main hub. LH? They have FRA and MUC but otherwise (an odd flight or two from DUS) they aren't embracing the point-to-point concept. What about VS? They've also ordered the A380 but does anyone see them building up anything other than LHR/LGW? For an airline like KLM (still a major player) the argument is all but moot. How many "points" other than AMS do they have???! |
Quoting PM (Reply 27): And outside of Europe there are comparable examples. Tell SQ (Singapore) and EK (Dubai) that big hubs have had their day. Tell SA to develop more long-haul flights out of Cape Town and Durban. |
Quoting Halibut (Reply 34): 1st we must see a little more interest in the current a380 & see how when it sells without the launch customer discounts ! More 747s have been sold this year than a380s . |
Quoting Halibut (Reply 32): While AB was designing the a380 , Boeing was planning on going composite ! In the meantime I am sure Boeing is currently planning to introduce a VLA composite a/c to going up against the a380 when the market & infrastructure is there ! Boeing is in a very good position & can determine the A380's fate ! |
Quoting AC320 (Reply 36): Considering the seat gap between the proposed 747ADV and the A388, I'm curious if it would be better to have the 'ADV compared to the shrunk A387? Or am I a bit off base in that line of thought, with them being two birds for two different missions? |
Quoting Glom (Thread starter): But now I'm thinking slightly differently. The key disadvantage to the 747ADV is that it is effectively the end of the line. In the simple 747ADV vs A388 it may have an edge, but the A380 is more than the just the A388. That family has room for growth and advancement. The 747ADV may make sense for a short term incremental up sizing, but afterwards, it is a dead end. The A380 offers more prospects for the longer term. It's not so limiting. |
Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 1): Beyond the 747Adv will be Boeing's entry into the VLA market. But not anytime too soon. Despite what many on this forum believe, Boeing has never said there is no market for VLA; just that the market is not very big. In that regard, the 380 itself is a niche player - for now. But as the market grows then Airbus already has an entrant. Boeing, on the other hand, will grow into that market. |
Quoting Zvezda (Reply 2): Airlines don't buy future prospective families of airplanes. They buy real concrete airliners. I see no advantage for the WhaleJet on this basis. |
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 3): Boeing will still have an advantage in the VLA market, after the B-747-ADV. By then it will have enough experience from working with composites, from the B-787, to design a composite VLA. But, I doubt it will be bigger than the A-380-900, as that airplane, and its smaller -800 sister will have made the needed airport infastructure changes a reality. With the lower fuel comsumption that composites offer, Boeing will be positioning themselves very well. |
Quoting Stitch (Reply 4): Boeing's marketing says that some 20% of traffic at "slot-constrained" airports like LHR and NRT are planes larger then the 773/A346 with the majority more in the 772/A343 range or smaller. |
Quoting Glareskin (Reply 14): Isn't it strange in this perspective that the Japanese airlines fully ignore the A380 (Airbus) and even confirmed their loyalty to Boeing? confused |
Quoting Zvezda (Reply 40): Assuming the longest version is 80 meters, passenger capacity would be about the same size as the WhaleJet, |
Quoting Zvezda (Reply 40): assuming crew rest, passenger sleeping bunks, most Y lavs, Y galleys, etc. are all upstairs. |
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 7): Only 3% of deliveries (73 airplanes) will be of the 747-size and larger category |
Quoting Vincewy (Reply 43): I have hard time believing this, if you look at how NE Asian cities evolved in the last 3 decades, between major cities, you have no choice but to use widebodies. In the next few decades, besides PEK, PVG, and CAN, I expect CTU, WUH, XIY, possibly even CKG, HRB, TNA, NKG, CGO developing into major hubs. Going to any of the major hubs will require large aircrafts rather than frequencies should one want to raise capacities. |
Quoting Jet-lagged (Reply 19): To me it makes perfect sense that you won't see a need from the China side for A380s (excluding Hong Kong perhaps). It is a huge country, about the size of the U.S. with lots of new and competing airports, and a number of roughly equally sized airlines. When authorities want to build a new airport or expand an existing one, they don't get mired down in disputes with farmers or NIMBY protestations. My opinion is that the aviation market will look a lot more like the North American model |
Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 41): Quoting Stitch (Reply 4): Boeing's marketing says that some 20% of traffic at "slot-constrained" airports like LHR and NRT are planes larger then the 773/A346 with the majority more in the 772/A343 range or smaller. I would be interested in where this number comes from. My understanding of both LHR and NRT (which frankly are the only airports outside of cargo that would justify a VLA) is that the number is well below 20% now and falling. |
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 44): I think your comment proved the point....look at how many points you just listed....777/787/340/350 with multiple frequencies will do a lot! |
Quoting Halibut (Reply 47): What would make my wife & I very happy would be a direct flight from newark to wuhan china . Now that I think about it , it would take about the same amount of time to fly to PEK as it would wuhan from EWR . We could eliminate that stop in Beijing , taking hours off travel time & possiblly save some $$$ too . All that would be needed is a minor course change . Oh , and a Boeing 787 ! |
Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 41): Your assumption might need to be made more explicit. |
Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 41): So far there is zero evidence that there is a market large enough to sustain the A380 and the 747 at the same time. |
Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 41): The recent orders for 747s-400 each take away a prospective order for a A380. |