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ZKSUJ
Topic Author
Posts: 6887
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Take-Off Crash Video

Sat Oct 15, 2005 7:13 pm

Hi,

Does anyone have any crash video of an airplane taking off and crashing at the end of the runway onto the trees.

It will be great if the video shows a twin light engine plane. I am after the PA23 Apache, but even something like a Piper Seneca will do. Please try your best to get the video of a small light twin engine aircraft like a Piper Apache or a Piper Seneca, and NOT something like a Metroliner or a Beech-1900D or a SAAB-340, etc...

Cheers everyone.
 
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garpd
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RE: Take-Off Crash Video

Sat Oct 15, 2005 7:32 pm

Morbid fascination you got there
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PIA777
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RE: Take-Off Crash Video

Sat Oct 15, 2005 7:49 pm

There is one of an Air france A320 at an air show. Just google it or something.

PIA777
GO CUBS!!
 
WillieP
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RE: Take-Off Crash Video

Sat Oct 15, 2005 7:55 pm

Quoting ZKSUJ (Thread starter):
It will be great if the video shows a twin light engine plane

Could think of better things that are great!
 
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HAWK21M
Posts: 30172
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RE: Take-Off Crash Video

Sat Oct 15, 2005 11:40 pm

LINK
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
RichardPrice
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RE: Take-Off Crash Video

Sat Oct 15, 2005 11:46 pm

Very exacting requirements you have there, care to also let us know what our hourly rate would be while looking for this for you? Or is it a flat rate finders fee at the end?
 
NZ747
Posts: 849
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RE: Take-Off Crash Video

Sat Oct 15, 2005 11:50 pm

What paper's this for man? Get the MBQ sky tower guy to take one of the twins up and bring a video camera  Wink
 
loisencroach
Posts: 611
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RE: Take-Off Crash Video

Sat Oct 15, 2005 11:53 pm

www.gaudens.com has some footage of air crashes, although not of the one you're looking for. On this site, however, it has some interesting footage of a UPS DC-8 that almost crashed.
 
EK156
Posts: 646
Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 8:01 pm

RE: Take-Off Crash Video

Sun Oct 16, 2005 1:14 am

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 5):
Very exacting requirements you have there, care to also let us know what our hourly rate would be while looking for this for you? Or is it a flat rate finders fee at the end?



Quoting NZ747 (Reply 6):
What paper's this for man? Get the MBQ sky tower guy to take one of the twins up and bring a video camera

Can't you just plainly either help or not comment at all!!!! He asked for assistance. If you can help then go ahead and do it!!! Why do you have to comment and throw in negative vibes... Just don't help if you can't or don't want to ... simple!!! GOSH!!!
 
DCrawley
Posts: 328
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 3:18 am

RE: Take-Off Crash Video

Sun Oct 16, 2005 6:24 am

Why do you need this video? CFI?

Quoting EK156 (Reply 8):
Can't you just plainly either help or not comment at all!!!! He asked for assistance. If you can help then go ahead and do it!!! Why do you have to comment and throw in negative vibes... Just don't help if you can't or don't want to ... simple!!! GOSH!!!

No need to get bent out of shape over this. You just twisted your own logic:

Can't you just plainly either help or not comment at all!!!!

-d
"Weather at our destination is 50 degrees with some broken clouds, but they'll try to have them fixed before we arrive."
 
EK156
Posts: 646
Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 8:01 pm

RE: Take-Off Crash Video

Sun Oct 16, 2005 7:36 am

Quoting DCrawley (Reply 9):
No need to get bent out of shape over this. You just twisted your own logic:

Can't you just plainly either help or not comment at all!!!!

oppsss... I meant help if you can, or if you can't then that's okay.. but don't comment negatively on his request? There is no need for that!!
 
MarshalN
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RE: Take-Off Crash Video

Sun Oct 16, 2005 7:52 am

A tangent.... what exactly were they testing in that A320? I mean.... it looked like it was ok, except that the aircraft didn't have enough lift. What was wrong?
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Take-Off Crash Video

Sun Oct 16, 2005 8:06 am

Quoting MarshalN (Reply 11):
A tangent.... what exactly were they testing in that A320? I mean.... it looked like it was ok, except that the aircraft didn't have enough lift. What was wrong?

Well, this is an A.nut hornet's nest

A320 at Mulhouse was an in service AF aircraft doing a flyby at an airshow. So what went wrong?

Some preliminaries:
- Pre flight briefing was not held.
- Flyby altitude was below French regulatory minimums.
- Flyby altitude was below the level of surrounding obstacles (trees).
- Flyby runway was changed at last minute (when in sight of the airfield).

As the plane flew by, speed and altitude were still both decreasing. Engines were at or near idle. The plane's protection systems were compensating by increasing angle of attack (to maximum). But since the plane was at stall speed, once it reached the max angle of attack the only way not to stall was to descend.

When the pilot discovered the approaching trees, it was already too late. No amount of thrust would have allowed the plane to clear the trees. On the video you clearly hear the engines spooling up just in time to become woodchippers.

Pilot flying had overconfidence in the plane's control system allowing him to perform a dramatic low speed flyby. In fact, without the control system and envelope protection, the plane might have stalled (it never did). But not stalling is not enough. You also have to avoid hitting the ground.

Nothing was wrong with the plane, and all components performed according to (or beyond) specs.

And yes, if the pilot had tried the same stunt in a 737 or any other plane, there would still have been a crash. Nothing in the control systems of the A320 stopped the pilot from applying go around power and trying to fly himself out of the corner. This is when the old pilots say something like: "Use your superior skills to keep yourself out of situations where you might need to use them".

Airbi may have very cool envelope protection systems, but they can't break the laws of physics.

[Edited 2005-10-16 01:08:11]
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
cha747
Posts: 807
Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 1:07 pm

RE: Take-Off Crash Video

Sun Oct 16, 2005 1:00 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 12):
A320 at Mulhouse was an in service AF aircraft doing a flyby at an airshow. So what went wrong?

One things I've always been confused about. When you say "in service" were there revenue passengers on board? Thanks.
Piedmontgirl was always right
 
aa777jr
Posts: 2269
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 12:03 pm

RE: Take-Off Crash Video

Sun Oct 16, 2005 2:20 pm

Quoting Cha747 (Reply 13):
One things I've always been confused about. When you say "in service" were there revenue passengers on board? Thanks.

There is nothing morbid about his request. The video requested was a flight of a pilotless a/c that AF was testing...
A liberal is a man who is right most of the time, but he's right too soon.
 
iwok
Posts: 979
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 2:35 pm

RE: Take-Off Crash Video

Sun Oct 16, 2005 2:24 pm

Quoting EK156 (Reply 8):
Can't you just plainly either help or not comment at all!!!! He asked for assistance. If you can help then go ahead and do it!!! Why do you have to comment and throw in negative vibes... Just don't help if you can't or don't want to ... simple!!! GOSH!!!

EK, the poster has asked for very detailed information about very gruesome events. A valid question is WHY!

Just because you may think its absolutely normal, doesn't mean others can ask WHY!.

Quoting ZKSUJ (Thread starter):
Does anyone have any crash video of an airplane taking off and crashing at the end of the runway onto the trees.

It will be great if the video shows a twin light engine plane. I am after the PA23 Apache, but even something like a Piper Seneca will do.

Any chance of asking WHY you need this?

iwok
 
MarshalN
Posts: 1474
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2005 9:39 am

RE: Take-Off Crash Video

Sun Oct 16, 2005 2:54 pm

Quoting Iwok (Reply 15):
EK, the poster has asked for very detailed information about very gruesome events. A valid question is WHY!

Just because you may think its absolutely normal, doesn't mean others can ask WHY!.

There can be a million reasons for it. For a music video, for his own viewing pleasure, for proof to show a friend, for the heck of it .... you name it. Why do you (and the others who asked) need to know so badly? Sure, it was gruesome, but the fact that these videos are hosted on websites (and that people on a.net know about them) means they are viewed, bookmarked, and remembered. Do you need to ask why people on a.net know about them and can point them to other videos as well? Why do people watch police chase TV shows (and why do TV stations show them)? It's freedom of speech and they can watch whatever they want...
 
wukka
Posts: 884
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 1:08 pm

RE: Take-Off Crash Video

Sun Oct 16, 2005 3:14 pm

Quoting Aa777jr (Reply 14):
Quoting Cha747 (Reply 13):
One things I've always been confused about. When you say "in service" were there revenue passengers on board? Thanks.

There is nothing morbid about his request. The video requested was a flight of a pilotless a/c that AF was testing...

Huh?

Are you truly responding to Cha747? First off, he was replying to Starlion who was apparently referring to the A320 demo crash.

Secondly, I don't see Cha747 saying anything about morbitiy.

Thirdly, the original poster asked for, "any crash video of an airplane taking off and crashing at the end of the runway onto the trees. It will be great if the video shows a twin light engine plane. I am after the PA23 Apache, but even something like a Piper Seneca will do. Please try your best to get the video of a small light twin engine aircraft like a Piper Apache or a Piper Seneca, and NOT something like a Metroliner or a Beech-1900D or a SAAB-340, etc..."

Do you see anything about "Air France" or "pilotless" in that posting?

You just don't get it, do you, Junior?
We can agree to disagree.
 
NZ747
Posts: 849
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2004 2:01 pm

RE: Take-Off Crash Video

Sun Oct 16, 2005 3:26 pm

Quoting MarshalN (Reply 16):
There can be a million reasons for it. For a music video, for his own viewing pleasure

Hahaha Ashwin you have some twisted sick personal pleasures  Wink.
 
ZKSUJ
Topic Author
Posts: 6887
Joined: Tue May 18, 2004 5:15 pm

RE: Take-Off Crash Video

Sun Oct 16, 2005 8:41 pm

Quoting NZ747 (Reply 18):
Hahaha Ashwin you have some twisted sick personal pleasures

Stupid POF assignment.  Wink

Thanks for the help guys.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Take-Off Crash Video

Sun Oct 16, 2005 10:38 pm

Quoting Cha747 (Reply 13):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 12):
A320 at Mulhouse was an in service AF aircraft doing a flyby at an airshow. So what went wrong?

One things I've always been confused about. When you say "in service" were there revenue passengers on board? Thanks.

It was in service, as in AF owned it and was using it for revenue service. On this particular flight, however, it was full of sightseeing pax. Whether they had paid a fare or not I don't know.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Checo77
Posts: 1263
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 11:39 am

RE: Take-Off Crash Video

Mon Oct 17, 2005 1:38 am

How many people died in that AF A320 crash??? I first saw the video like 3 years ago, but I never thought the plane could be full of poeple!!!! Does anybody know the number of dead?
Regards,
Adam
Czech Boeing lover living in Lima
 
User avatar
kl5147
Posts: 286
Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 4:58 am

RE: Take-Off Crash Video

Mon Oct 17, 2005 2:07 am

Quoting Checo77 (Reply 21):
How many people died in that AF A320 crash??? I first saw the video like 3 years ago, but I never thought the plane could be full of poeple!!!! Does anybody know the number of dead?

F-GKFC A320-111 (c/n 0009) 26-06-1988 near Mulhouse
6 crew 130 pax. 3 pax failed to escape, 34 pax sustained injuries
"The world is just a click away!"
 
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HAWK21M
Posts: 30172
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RE: Take-Off Crash Video

Mon Oct 17, 2005 2:14 am

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 5):
care to also let us know what our hourly rate would be while looking for this for you? Or is it a flat rate finders fee at the end

I'll settle for A Drink & Dinner  Smile

Quoting Checo77 (Reply 21):
How many people died in that AF A320 crash??? I first saw the video like 3 years ago, but I never thought the plane could be full of poeple!!!! Does anybody know the number

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19880626-0
Why Pax on an Air Show Flight.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
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kl5147
Posts: 286
Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 4:58 am

RE: Take-Off Crash Video

Mon Oct 17, 2005 2:25 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 23):
Why Pax on an Air Show Flight.

It wa a sightseeing charterflight for local passengers to publicise AF's new aircraft type. (Only three A320's had been delivered so far)
The flight was planned from Mulhouse to the Mont Blanc and back to Mulhouse. The fly-over at the Habsheim airshow (where the plane crashed) was seen by Air France as a public relations advantage for the company.
"The world is just a click away!"
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Take-Off Crash Video

Mon Oct 17, 2005 1:18 pm

Quoting KL5147 (Reply 24):
The fly-over at the Habsheim airshow (where the plane crashed) was seen by Air France as a public relations advantage for the company.

There was some report on the Swapping of the CVR/DFDR post crash.Is that true.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
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zeke
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RE: Take-Off Crash Video

Mon Oct 17, 2005 4:07 pm

Quoting ZKSUJ (Thread starter):
Does anyone have any crash video of an airplane taking off and crashing at the end of the runway onto the trees.

This is not really a common occourance, and even less so to be filmed.

Remember reading a few reports of aircraft that takeoff attempts were made with control locks in place that had this outcome, and another of a drunk joyrider tried to take an aircraft off that had been undergoing maintenance, problem being they removed the elevator off for maintenance.

Good luck with your search, I dont recall ever seeing one before, if you find one I would be interested in seeing it.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
RICARDOAB
Posts: 162
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 7:07 pm

RE: Take-Off Crash Video

Mon Oct 17, 2005 10:09 pm

Try www.flightlevel350.com

thats where I found it
 
luisca
Posts: 1530
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2001 11:37 am

RE: Take-Off Crash Video

Mon Oct 17, 2005 10:30 pm

Quoting RICARDOAB (Reply 27):
Try www.flightlevel350.com

thats where I found it

They dont post crash videos anymore
If it ain't Boeing (or Embraer ;-)) I ain't Going!
 
TaromA380
Posts: 364
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2005 12:35 am

RE: Take-Off Crash Video

Mon Oct 17, 2005 10:32 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 25):
There was some report on the Swapping of the CVR/DFDR post crash.Is that true.

This fact was never proved, despite the anormal recuperation procedure of the CVR/FDR. The French government obviously tried to avoid the aircraft doubts and blamed the pilots. In fact the situation was a mixture (as almost all accidents are) of weaknesses (technics and humans) and each part could easily blame the other without real conclusion.

The Captain was judged and found guilty, no prison condemnation. He contested the court decision and finally took 6 months of prison.
 
mikefad
Posts: 81
Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2005 1:02 am

RE: Take-Off Crash Video

Mon Oct 17, 2005 11:35 pm

Maybe he likes to see people get their heads blown off with a shotgun too. Everybody has their own thing no matter how weird it may seem to others ,right? That's the current proper way of thinking. Moral relativity I believe it's called.

"Can someone pleeeeze find me a video of someone getting thier head blown off with a shotgun? A bazooka would be really great but a shotgun will suffice."
"BUT I DON"T WANT ANY FLACK(sorry) FROM ANYBODY ON THIS! JUST GIVE ME THE VIDEO AND SHUT-UP!"

Me? I like a good round of golf..............And laughing at the teenagers on Anet.
 
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Starlionblue
Posts: 20751
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

RE: Take-Off Crash Video

Tue Oct 18, 2005 12:58 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 25):
There was some report on the Swapping of the CVR/DFDR post crash.Is that true.

As TaromA380 says, there are such reports. However, as he also said, human and technical factors were involved. The investigation proved that it was primarily pilot error, and there was nothing wrong with the plane. You don't really need the recorders to figure this one out. Here is my summary:

Some preliminaries:
- Pre flight briefing was not held.
- Flyby altitude was below French regulatory minimums.
- Flyby altitude was below the level of surrounding obstacles (trees).
- Flyby runway was changed at last minute (when in sight of the airfield).

As the plane flew by, speed and altitude were still both decreasing. Engines were at or near idle. The plane's protection systems were compensating by increasing angle of attack (to maximum). But since the plane was at stall speed, once it reached the max angle of attack the only way not to stall was to descend.

When the pilot discovered the approaching trees, it was already too late. No amount of thrust would have allowed the plane to clear the trees. On the video you clearly hear the engines spooling up just in time to become woodchippers.

Pilot flying had overconfidence in the plane's control system allowing him to perform a dramatic low speed flyby. In fact, without the control system and envelope protection, the plane might have stalled (it never did). But not stalling is not enough. You also have to avoid hitting the ground.

Nothing was wrong with the plane, and all components performed according to (or beyong) specs.

And yes, if the pilot had tried the same stunt in a 737 or any other plane, there would still have been a crash. Nothing in the control systems of the A320 stopped the pilot from applying go around power and trying to fly himself out of the corner. This is when the old pilots say something like: "Use your superior skills to keep yourself out of situations where you might need to use them".

Airbi may have very cool envelope protection systems, but they can't break the laws of physics.

"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
cha747
Posts: 807
Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 1:07 pm

RE: Take-Off Crash Video

Thu Oct 20, 2005 5:28 pm

Hey Wukka - Thanks for the backup, Starlionblue - Thanks for the info. Junior probably wasn't thinking (as usual) and was probably preoccupied in some twisted autoerotic delusions with the male picture on the right of the screen advertising "The Aviary."

So, ZKSUJ - did anybody answer your question???
Piedmontgirl was always right
 
ZKSUJ
Topic Author
Posts: 6887
Joined: Tue May 18, 2004 5:15 pm

RE: Take-Off Crash Video

Thu Oct 20, 2005 7:28 pm

Hahah, not quite but thanks for the replies. The assignment is over now anyway  Smile
 
4holer
Posts: 2776
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2002 1:47 am

RE: Take-Off Crash Video

Fri Oct 21, 2005 2:22 am

If you weren't looking for that AF... There was a prop plane nosedive at big-boys.com. I can't look for it to link since I'm at work and that's a "forbidden website".
It was an old cargo plane that went nose up, banked right and crashed. You can search that site if you want...
There was a discussion here or in non-av recently about it, that's how I'm aware of it...
Ghosts appear and fade away.....................
 
JakeOrion
Posts: 1090
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2005 11:13 pm

RE: Take-Off Crash Video

Fri Oct 21, 2005 2:37 am

Quoting 4holer (Reply 34):
There was a prop plane nosedive at big-boys.com. I can't look for it to link since I'm at work and that's a "forbidden website".
It was an old cargo plane that went nose up, banked right and crashed. You can search that site if you want...
There was a discussion here or in non-av recently about it, that's how I'm aware of it...

http://www.big-boys.com/articles/oldplanecrash.html

Tragic accident indeed...
Every problem has a simple solution; finding the simple solution is the difficult problem.
 
legion242
Posts: 217
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2005 10:18 am

RE: Take-Off Crash Video

Fri Oct 21, 2005 4:00 am

Almost looks like cargo shifted or something.
Don't make me release the monkeys!!

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