Ok everyone this is not supposed to be an A vs B,but a question which plane meets their needs better. Being they already a loyal airbus customer it makes sense that they are giving the A350 a serious look see. However my gut says that the 787-800 maybe a viable candidate for their needs. For routes like DUB to BOS or JFK the 777-300er may make sense! Your opinions please

One word: duck!!!   

Thanks Btriple! However I think it's worth asking? Competition is a wonderful thing. It makes the product better.

Okay, this is what I think:

The 787 by itself is far too small for EI. However, if complimented by the 777, it could be a good choice for EI. The A350, on the other hand, is a good replacement/addition for the A330s, but it is only in the early stages of development.

Quoting Georgiabill (Thread starter): For routes like DUB to BOS or JFK the 777-300er may make sense! Your opinions please

No, no, no, no, no. It is far too big and far too expensive for EI. A smaller version would be a better choice for EI.

The 777 would have to be complimented by the 787 in order to work for EI. Both are either too big or too small to be ordered alone. The 777-200 has a good capacity with a good range. This is what EI needs for routes like DUB-LAX or DUB-ORD where loads are heavy. The 787 could at the same time could cover smaller, distant markets, like South Africa. The 777 along with the 787 would be very versatile for EI and would also be available for them in the near future. The downside: $$$$. This wouldn't be a cheap fleet over-haul for EI. The 777 and 787 costs money, a lot of money. That's before we add in the costs of changing from an Airbus to Boeing fleet. Money just doesn't come easy to EI right now.

The A350 is a good plane to replace or add-to EI's current A330 fleet. What makes it better than the A330 is its added range and better fuel efficiency, yet it still is relatively the same from a pilot's or a maintenance engineer's standpoint. However, the A350 is only just entered development stages. It could be many years before it is available. EI would have to lease other aircraft for the time-being, and other aircraft is hard to come by.

Since I am on the subject. EI will undoubtedly have to lease some used aircraft while they wait for their new ones (whether Boeing or Airbus). Air Transat has been discussed here before as a possibility. They have A330s that EI could lease while they wait for their new planes. Air Transat's A330s are RR-equipped, though, while EI's are GE-equipped. This is only a minor detail, considering there are few A330s up for lease these days.

I don't care which plane I see in EI's livery. I am sure it will look great anyway.

Best regards,
Btriple7

[Edited 2005-10-31 03:02:00]

Quoting Btriple7 (Reply 1): One word: duck!!!

In the words of a dear Srgt Friend of mine BOHICA, Bend over, here it comes again.

Quoting Btriple7 (Reply 3): Hold on. I'll post a legtimate reply

This should be interestin...

But back to the topic, I think that EL will go with Airbus, they seem to like the current fleet, and IIRC they want more 330's for long hall so the 350 would make sense.

Honestly, I would prefer that they buy the 787, but Airbus may have a case.....

Since they operate A320s, A321s, and A330s, they may want to buy the A350 to stick with commonality.........

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 4): But back to the topic, I think that EL will go with Airbus, they seem to like the current fleet, and IIRC they want more 330's for long hall so the 350 would make sense.

Don't rule out Boeing. EI has had a good relationship with Boeing. I'm sure EI has been very happy with their A330s, but the 777/787 have many irresistable qualities (fuel efficiency, range, capacity). They are also available in the near future. The A350 is years off.

It is really a toss-up. Some will say Airbus, and some will say Boeing. In the end it only matters what Dermot Mannion says.

Regards,
Btriple7

P.S. For the record, I think they will go with Airbus too; although, I'd prefer Boeing.

[Edited 2005-10-31 03:13:31]

Without entering an AvsB war , i really think the A350 is the more economical choice.
Why buy two types of plane , when one can do all missions ?
When the 787 is too small , 777 will be ideal and when the later is too big the first one is perfect.OK , but with both versions (800 and 900) of the A350 , you could have all jobs made by one type.
I know some airlines (AC , AI , JL , NH ,and probably others will follow) have already bought the combo 777/787 , so all is open..........
It will depend of :
1 PRICES
2 If EI want two suppliers (being now an all Airbus fleet)
3 If they can wait for 2010 , when the A350 will be ready.
I do not see any political choice here.........

Quoting FCKC (Reply 7): I do not see any political choice here.........

I agree. I may be wrong, but I don't think the Irish government gets involved in aircraft purchases....

Quoting FCKC (Reply 7): I do not see any political choice here.........

Agreed. EI is not a political. They just want a good aeroplane.

Quoting FCKC (Reply 7): Without entering an AvsB war , i really think the A350 is the more economical choice. Why buy two types of plane , when one can do all missions ? When the 787 is too small

Somewhere in amongst all the A Net speculation this "787 too small' thing keeps cropping up. I thought the 787 was 2-4-2 seating and was actually wider than A350. (Fuselage lengths excepted)

It goes to show that if you read the bull long enough everybody starts believing it!!!!

Like we don't say A320 is too small when compared to 737 do we, so why do we suggest 787 too small.  

If they are mainly an Airbus fleet, then the A350 probably makes more sense. Boeing would really need to show some incredible "cost of ownership" numbers to swing it their way.

Cheers

Quoting Btriple7 (Reply 3): The 787 by itself is far too small for EI. However, if complimented by the 777, it could be a good choice for EI

EI is too small an airline to operate two long haul fleets. They have spent a absolute fortune investing in bring their short haul fleet from four types (F50, 146, 737, 32x) down to one type (32x), so they now wont go the opposite direction with their 330 replacement. However, don't write off the 787 I always thought that the 787-1000 was a logical 772 replacement owing to its lower fuel burn, etc. If this is the case, why can't EI operate smaller capacity 787's for route prooving, and larger capacity 787-1000's for trunk long-haul routes, such as JFK. Thus, the 787 is perfect for EI, and perhaps the 350 is too big!

EI was basically the ETOPS route proover for the 330 - wonder if they will be up there with the 350 launch though.

Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 10): Somewhere in amongst all the A Net speculation this "787 too small' thing keeps cropping up. I thought the 787 was 2-4-2 seating and was actually wider than A350. (Fuselage lengths excepted)

767 - before posting, you should try and understand what other posters are discussing... Here the discussion is to do with passenger / freight capacity and not the size of seats...

[Edited 2005-10-31 12:07:04]

There is also the question of how badly Boeing actually wants EI. Don't forget they aren't shy in offering deals and concessions in order to gain a contract. Look at Ryanair and the discount they supposedly got on their 738's. In the end Boeing may offer a fleet buy back deal for the A330's along with crew training and discounted 777's in the interim to make the deal sweeter. No doubt also it hasn't gone unnoticed that EI retired their last Boeing ending that 45 year relationship. Not that it would actually make much of an impact on any fleet renewal programme but Aer Lingus were never shy in ordering new technology Boeing products. It was a 747 launch customer back in the day and an early 737 operator and considering that was when air travel in Ireland was still a commodity for the wealthy and we as a nation were pretty darn poor that was a hell of a step for the nation's flag carrier.

Did Best Western wake up on the wrong side of the bed this morning??

I am just waiting for a decision from EI. I would love to see the 777 in Aer Lingus colours and maybe a 787 to compliment it. However with EI's recently relationship with Airbus there may be a wait to see how the A350 is progressing, then a decision will be made. Probably the middle of next year before we hear anything though.

Rob

Quoting EI747SYDNEY (Reply 14): Did Best Western wake up on the wrong side of the bed this morning??

:-( - never mind the wrong side of the bed... wrong side of the irish sea! You would agree that it was a kinda stupid post I responded to!   I've toned down my response though!

Quoting Aer Lingus (Reply 13): No doubt also it hasn't gone unnoticed that EI retired their last Boeing ending that 45 year relationship

EI was the first ever airline to operate the 732,733,734 and 735.
Aer Lingus was a 747 launch airline
Aer Lingus also ordered the original Boeing Concorde 'me too' (most probably a political kick in the teeth to Bae at the time).

Best Western

Whats this about EI ordering the original Boeing concorde, Is there any info out there on the web?

Thanks
Rob

Quoting EI747SYDNEY (Reply 14): However with EI's recently relationship with Airbus there may be a wait to see how the A350 is progressing, then a decision will be made. Probably the middle of next year before we hear anything though. Rob

Tend to agree with you Rob. Now while I don't hide that I'm an Airbus fan (I mean I live just beside their headquarters), yet doesn't make me one of those a.netters who only tolerate one of the manufacturers, yet your mention of EI's recent relationship with Airbus is key here I beilieve. I mix with many Airbus people, and they all have a very high opinion of EI and say they are one of the best/friendliest airlines to deal with. In the end, money is what counts and I do think Boeing will fight for the order, but I have a feeling (and hope) that Airbus will win the EI oder, but who knows?

Quoting EI747SYDNEY (Reply 16): Whats this about EI ordering the original Boeing concorde, Is there any info out there on the web?

Aer Lingus did order the 2707. I (acutally Google) cant find any details on the web.. Perhaps its time for another thread on this one...

First, is there a decision to make, i.e. IS EI in the market for new long haul aircraft? Second, if so, then when are they expected to make a decision?

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 12): I always thought that the 787-1000 was a logical 772 replacement owing to its lower fuel burn, etc.

Who said Boeing was even going ahead with the 787-10? Read this article. If Boeing were to ever build the 787-10, it would come out long after the A350.

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 12): Thus, the 787 is perfect for EI, and perhaps the 350 is too big!

I am not following your logic here. The A350 is the same size as the A330s, which is what EI currently uses. EI has already doubled-up flights to JFK and BOS. So, how could the A350 be too small?

Quoting Aer Lingus (Reply 13): In the end Boeing may offer a fleet buy back deal for the A330's along with crew training and discounted 777's in the interim to make the deal sweeter.

I think so too. If Boeing thinks EI is worth it, then they will to great lengths to get their business.

Regards,
Btriple7

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 19): IS EI in the market for new long haul aircraft?

Yes, definitely. They have major plans for expansion in the long-haul market.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 19): then when are they expected to make a decision?

Possibly by the end of '05 or early '06.

Quoting Btriple7 (Reply 21): Possibly by the end of '05 or early '06.

It (the full order) almost certinly wont happen this year. Mannion has not got a lot of hard cash on hand but he has publicaly stated interest in buying 'up to 3' new aircraft as a stop gap measure in the meantime. Aer Lingus' (part) sale is being continually put off by the Irish govt. With an general election due in the first half of '07 things are looking bad for EI at the moment in terms of the airlines ability to raise funds. Bertie Ahern will do what the Unions tell him, and the Unions are anti - just about everything - New Long Haul routes, Sale of the Airline, out sourcing of depts and contracts, you get the picture.

I have said all along that I believe EI will go for Boeing. Sign a deal that will bring new 787s when they become available and in the mean time 777s will be leased to EI. Until the 787s are delivered EI may operate with the 777s and the A330s depending on route capacity. I just cannot see Boeing giving up on EI after so many years without a huge fight and a lot of persuasion

Before I start, it should be noted

Quoting Btriple7 (Reply 20): EI has already doubled-up flights to JFK and BOS

No direct DUB BOS for summer 2006.

Quoting Btriple7 (Reply 20): So, how could the A350 be too small?

I presume you mean too big...

Lots of additional North American airline capacity will arrive in Ireland when the SNN stopover is eliminated. Even without this we are seeing capacity dumping next summer (DL 764’s, and splitting the DL 128/9 ATLSNNDUB service.

Alongside this EI will want to grow their routes. We have seen that EI already have had difficulty in filling 330’s to BWI and MCO, so perhaps having this as the smallest long haul aircraft in the fleet could be a risky move, especially if they want to dive into non one-world hubs, such as DTW, YYZ and SEA. Perhaps the smaller 787-800 and –900 may be better bets. An increasing of frequencies on DUB JFK may also increase their business carryings also.

Airbus wll get the nod here. Too much history and they have the airplane that El wants.

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 24): Before I start, it should be noted Quoting Btriple7 (Reply 20): EI has already doubled-up flights to JFK and BOS No direct DUB BOS for summer 2006. Quoting Btriple7 (Reply 20): So, how could the A350 be too small? I presume you mean too big...

Yes, thank you for correcting me.

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 24): An increasing of frequencies on DUB JFK may also increase their business carryings also.

I have to disagree. I still see EI buying the 777 along with 787. The 787 simply isn't big enough for the JFK route. It is not a good idea to replace aircraft with smaller aircraft. It'll just cost more money in the end.

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 25): Airbus wll get the nod here. Too much history and they have the airplane that El wants.

Do you mean Boeing will get the nod? Boeing's history with EI goes back much furthur than Airbus's history.

We speak about North America expansion , but don't they have in sight to expand in Asia ?I guess they are on the verge to open DXB.
What the Asian cities they would like to land ?KUL , BKK , NRT , PEK ???????

Quoting FCKC (Reply 27): guess they are on the verge to open DXB.

Yep, they officially announced the route last week. There ws a rather long thread about it.

Quoting FCKC (Reply 7): Why buy two types of plane , when one can do all missions ? When the 787 is too small , 777 will be ideal and when the later is too big the first one is perfect.OK , but with both versions (800 and 900) of the A350 , you could have all jobs made by one type.

The B787-8, B787-9, and B787-10X cover an even broader range (and, for EI, a more interesting range) than do the A350-800 and A350-900. See Widebodyphotog's excellent comparison here:
http://theaviationspecialist.com/300seat_comparo_table.gif

Quoting Btriple7 (Reply 20): Who said Boeing was even going ahead with the 787-10? Read this article. If Boeing were to ever build the 787-10, it would come out long after the A350.

IF the engine manufacturers can get the needed thrust out of the GEnx or the Trent 1000 or both, then there is no reason why the B787-10X cannot enter service in 2011. That, however, is a rather large IF.