AC Settle Pilot Issues Relative To 777, 787

sebring · Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:07 am

The deal will be re-announced shortly. AC got the same terms that were rejected by the pilots in June.

http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/archive/November2005/01/c9096.html

N328KF · Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:23 am

Sheesh, all that and AC loses out on valuable slots. I kiss

organized labor.

aviatortj · Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:25 am

Glad to see that one coming back. Good for them being able to make the deal.

boeingfever777 · Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:30 am

When will they re-announce the Boeing deal and will it still be for the same a/c and numbers?

Good to see they worked out a deal.

BigD · Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:32 am

I wonder how long it'll actually take to see an announcement from AC/Boeing? I suspect they have a deal already lined up and were simply waiting for the arbitrator's report before making a formal announcement. I certainly hope this is the case...

Cheers,

BigD

SthPacific787 · Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:34 am

Quoting AviatorTJ (Reply 2):
Glad to see that one coming back. Good for them being able to make the deal.

Me too. It's good to see that AC is well on the road to recovery with HOT New Aircraft on the order books. I'm lokking forward to seeing that really 'individual' colour scheme on the new Boeings. It has grown on me after seeing it in the 'flesh' a few times. (In SYD on A345 and B763)

The777Man · Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:34 am

Thanks for the good news!

My guess is that we'll see AC and Boeing announce a new deal before Christmas, perhaps even in the next few weeks.

The777Man

CrazyHorse · Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:37 am

Great news for Boeing and also great news for AC and their future expanding plans.

lh477 · Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:48 am

Quoting Sebring (Thread starter):
The deal will be re-announced shortly.

Good news for AC, they need the new equipment FAST!.....
Will be sad to see the A333 go, I love that plane in AC scheme. Oh well!

NYC777 · Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:56 am

Quoting BoeingFever777 (Reply 3):
When will they re-announce the Boeing deal and will it still be for the same a/c and numbers?

That, I think is still up in the air but it wouldn't surprise me if Boeing and AC were talking with an eye of announcing the re-order and to hopefully close it before year end. Nice Xmas present for Boeing and AC!

cayman · Wed Nov 02, 2005 6:09 am

If, as it appears, they have definitely lost the 2006 delivery slots for the 773s--would they be in line for slots in 2007?

Meanwhile what will be done about extra lift in 2006? Will Boeing help out somehow? More 763s? Maybe even more 333s/343s short term? Although the latter are not exactly in open supply are they?

I for one remember the fastest ever thread on a.net when this deal was originally announced and as an AC fan was very pleased then and equally crestfallen when it fell through in June. I really hope this time it takes!

DAYflyer · Wed Nov 02, 2005 6:14 am

Good news about the deal with the pilots. Now hopefully they (Boeing) can put the 777/787 order on the books before the end of the year!

sebring · Wed Nov 02, 2005 6:16 am

Look for an announcement this month. Slots for 2006 lost. To the best of my knowledge, other delivery dates are as per the original deal. Boeing is pledged to cover AC's need for interim lift in 2006, but I do not know how.

DAYflyer · Wed Nov 02, 2005 6:29 am

Quoting Sebring (Reply 12):
Boeing is pledged to cover AC's need for interim lift in 2006, but I do not know how.

Perhaps refurbishing the existing 767 fleet?? Or do you think they would let them lease a few new build 767 at cheap rates to keep the line open until the tanker deal goes through??

greasespot · Wed Nov 02, 2005 6:30 am

I will bet now that there will be some 2006 slots "freed UP" and the 777 will be in AC colors next year.

Please boeing and AC are not stupid. The cancelled orders did not dissappear. They were just cancelled for the press.

Boeing new what was going on all the time. Especially since this is a huge theft of an important Airbus customer. Boeing is not going to walk away becasue of labour issues.

GS

NYC777 · Wed Nov 02, 2005 6:39 am

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 14):
Especially since this is a huge theft of an important Airbus customer. Boeing is not going to walk away becasue of labour issues.

Agreed but Boeing is not about to hold delivery slots for anyone when there is an unresolved issue hanging over closing the deal. Boeing (and probably AC) didn't know when or if these issues that lead to the cancellation would be resolved. With that uncertainty in mind I would be surprised if Boeing allocated those spots to another airline though that point is pure specuation on my part. If I was a betting man, I'd say that the 777 will come in the 1st quarter of '07. AC probably still has the 787 delivery slots by virture of having deposits down on them which was not refunded by Boeing.

[Edited 2005-11-01 22:39:54]

flyinghippo · Wed Nov 02, 2005 6:45 am

I need to refresh my memory, but was Boeing going to take AC's Airbus planes off of their hands? Or it is AC's reponsibility to find a suiter?

If the first being the case, does anyone know if that will still be true?

Great news for AC more than Boeing.

[Edited 2005-11-01 22:45:37]

norcal · Wed Nov 02, 2005 6:46 am

How many firm + options were in the deal?

lh477 · Wed Nov 02, 2005 6:48 am

Quoting FlyingHippo (Reply 16):
I need to refresh my memory, but was Boeing going to take AC's Airbus planes off of their hands? Or it is AC's reponsibility to find a suiter?

I believe the agreement was that Boeing would take AC's widebodies at a fixed rate if AC is not able to find a better suitor for themselves..win win situation for AC.

aircanada014 · Wed Nov 02, 2005 7:06 am

Congratulations on AC and Boeing. I can't wait to fly on both aircrafts in near future. I think they will still use the same order 18 777s and 14 787s plus options on 18 777s and 46 787s. Boeing will buy those airbuses from AC.

sunrisevalley · Wed Nov 02, 2005 7:12 am

Quoting Sebring (Reply 12):
Boeing is pledged to cover AC's need for interim lift in 2006,

Sebring..
Has this been quantified in any way, do you know?

Ken777 · Wed Nov 02, 2005 7:16 am

Happy to see that the issue is resolved. It doesn't matter which planes they buy (A or B) - it just matters that AC can move ahead. Good news for everyone at AC.

ba777-236 · Wed Nov 02, 2005 7:17 am

Quoting Sebring (Reply 12):
Boeing is pledged to cover AC's need for interim lift in 2006, but I do not know how.

I too have heard this, and they may infact be some 777's in the AC fleet by next summer!!

I'm not sure if there are any leasing companies who have extra 773's (or 773ER's) but a couple of people I know have told me that AC WILL be flying the 773 in summer 2006 by the latest.

threepoint · Wed Nov 02, 2005 8:34 am

So how does the ongoing spat regarding merged seniority lists between the OAC and the ex-CAIL pilots affect this announcement? Or does it?

Do I understand this ongoing soap correctly?

The new a/c deliveries were suspended this summer due to a 'protest vote' by certain AC pilots that were required (with other AC labour groups) to ratify the purchase deal. My impression from this forum is that they weren't so much concerned by relatively minor concessions such as temporary changes in monthly duty time (required while training on the new aircraft), but due to their dissatisfaction with the merged seniority list between OAC and ex-CAIL pilots. Although this seniority disagreement technically had nothing to do with the new a/c deal (isn't it strictly an internal pilot union issue?) it nevertheless threw a wrench into the works, as designed by some pilots.

This latest arbitration (it's hard to keep track of them all) as I read it, says: "you guys (pilots) sort out your seniority issues by yourselves...as far as new airplanes are concerned, you guys are flying 'em according to these terms and that's that". And I guess we're still waiting for word on how the seniority issue will be decided (although I thought it was already decided by supposed binding arbitration).

Any corrections would be greatly appreciated, as my brain hurts. But the bottom line is: great news for AC, for the staff and also for we, the passengers.

muchswatch · Wed Nov 02, 2005 9:45 am

Great news for AC, and I can't wait to see 777's in AC livery. hyper

Jay

9v-svc · Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:36 am

The pilots doesnt know what they are missing out flying the 777 and 787. They wont regret it after converting from flying the airbus family.

yyz717 · Wed Nov 02, 2005 11:03 am

This current issue may be "settled" but the fact remains that AC unions are still at each others throats internally with AC vs CP factions, not to mention continued poor mgmt-union relations. AC has also been hurt by the now lost 777 (and perhaps 787) slots that the earlier order would have confirmed.

Hopefully the BOD will remember these continuing sore points at the next board meeting.

Anyway, it certainly will be nice to see new Boeings at AC.

TPEcanuck · Wed Nov 02, 2005 11:16 am

Wow! Great news for an early morning! I hope everyone, the pilots, AC, and Boeing are feeling great.

Since this message has attracted so many folks knowledgeable about AC, do any of you know if AC wil re-start YVR-TPE with their own planes instead of codeshare with BR when they get the new planes?

Cheers!

ACdreamliner · Wed Nov 02, 2005 11:42 am

well, once again i'm happy for air canada. I hope they sent those lush new 787's over the Edinburgh (YYZ-EDI is almost exactly what the aircraft was designed for (medium-large city connections about that distance apart)

much better for the J market than GLA. seems as if its a case of "we've always flown to Glasgow, so we will keep going".

i state here and now, that if AC puts a 787 to EDI i will buy a J class seat, even though i'm only a student...

actually, i'll buy a Y on the '87 even if they only send them as far as GLA

---

once again, well done to Boeing Commercial Aircraft & Air Canada.

Air Canada - Absolute Class : ACdreamliner

sebring · Wed Nov 02, 2005 11:57 am

Quoting TPEcanuck (Reply 27):
Wow! Great news for an early morning! I hope everyone, the pilots, AC, and Boeing are feeling great.

Since this message has attracted so many folks knowledgeable about AC, do any of you know if AC wil re-start YVR-TPE with their own planes instead of codeshare with BR when they get the new planes?

Cheers!

It's not a top 5 priority because the route is low-yield for the origin Canada originating market.

TPASXM787 · Wed Nov 02, 2005 12:07 pm

great to see this order go back on...the 777 and 787 seem to be a great fit for AC.

Now, is AC keeping the 330's? I may be wrong here but with AC doing some of US mx, does this include the 330s? If so it may put a dent in the plan, even though US only has 9 of them.

Iloveboeing · Wed Nov 02, 2005 12:24 pm

Quoting TPEcanuck (Reply 27):
Since this message has attracted so many folks knowledgeable about AC, do any of you know if AC wil re-start YVR-TPE with their own planes instead of codeshare with BR when they get the new planes?

They probably will........the 773ER and the 772LR give them that ability......

ACdreamliner · Wed Nov 02, 2005 12:27 pm

Quoting TPASXM787 (Reply 30):
Now, is AC keeping the 330's? I may be wrong here but with AC doing some of US mx, does this include the 330s? If so it may put a dent in the plan, even though US only has 9 of them.

Nope, the fleet will be:

CRJ/EMB - Short Haul
A32x - Medium Haul
787/777 - Long Haul

ac7e7 · Wed Nov 02, 2005 1:11 pm

I bet AC will keep those 330s as long as possible.

yyz717 · Wed Nov 02, 2005 1:22 pm

Quoting AC7E7 (Reply 33):
I bet AC will keep those 330s as long as possible.

I agree. The 333 is more fuel efficient than the 343 on any common lane segment. The 333 will surely outlast the 343/345 fleet in the AC fleet. The 333 actually fits nicely between the 777 and the 787-8 capacity-wise.

N1120A · Wed Nov 02, 2005 1:26 pm

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 34):
The 333 actually fits nicely between the 777 and the 787-8 capacity-wise.

Actually, the A333 and the 772 are right about the same size.

Cessnapimp · Wed Nov 02, 2005 1:32 pm

It's the economics and the route stucture of AC that will make so that the 333 will remain in service beyond the 343/345. It's a nice fit and a very nice plane to fly in, although I find the sound of the 4 CFM's (343) pumping at full bore a neat experience when sitting ahead of the wings... like 4 harmonious little buzzsaws, very cool.

airtran737 · Wed Nov 02, 2005 1:42 pm

http://ca.today.reuters.com/news/new...NADA-BOEING-COL.XML&archived=False

Looks like the order is pretty much back on. Way to go Boeing and Air Canada.

yyz717 · Wed Nov 02, 2005 1:53 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 35):
Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 34):
The 333 actually fits nicely between the 777 and the 787-8 capacity-wise.

Actually, the A333 and the 772 are right about the same size.

The 772 is a larger & more capable aircraft than the 333. Esp the 772LR which AC has chosen.

TPEcanuck · Wed Nov 02, 2005 2:17 pm

Sebring,

Thank-you very much for your insight!

I really wish AC could find a way to make it work. There really is need for more capacity on this route. I have to book tickets two months in advance for either CI (if I dare!) or BR, and I do the flight about 6 times a year, it's always been full. Furthermore, I find TPE-YVR tickets to be roughly 30% MORE expensive than TPE-LAX suggesting that for CI and BR, with their strengths in the Taiwan market, they are getting pretty good yields.

Also, while in general in find Asian carriers have great service, BR is nothing special, and AC compares quite favorably in many respects. Add new planes to the mix, and wow! I know AC used to fly it with their own planes, and I know Milton has said they didn't make money on it....I just can't understand why!

Sorry to be off-topic, but I suppose new agreement, leading to new planes, leads to new routes! But I guess not for us Canucks here in Taipei.

Send over some Tim Horton's guys!

Iloveboeing · Wed Nov 02, 2005 2:22 pm

Quoting ACdreamliner (Reply 32):
Nope, the fleet will be:

CRJ/EMB - Short Haul
A32x - Medium Haul
787/777 - Long Haul

That's a pretty nice combination. More commonality in the segments.......this will definately reduce costs and make AC more competitive.

I've been studying AC a little today and I am absolutely impressed with the improvements they've made. These changes will help strengthen AC's position as one of the world's leading airlines!

Congratulations Air Canada and Boeing!

sebring · Wed Nov 02, 2005 2:23 pm

The problem is that the off-peak is weak. You can make money during the summer months, and then lose a lot in winter. You may see AC get back on the route with a summer service before you see a year-long. You might also see AC go for a YYZ-TPE route because of the ability to hub traffic to Latin America. But the mainland China market is the big Kahuna right now.

9252fly · Wed Nov 02, 2005 2:53 pm

I've always wondered about AC interests in the TPE market. It occurred to me sometime ago,that their withdrawal from that market may have something to do with appeasing the Mainland and not jeopardizing that market. I'm wouldn't doubt if AC has been given a few hints from the authorities in Beijing about getting too cozy with Taipei.

yyz717 · Wed Nov 02, 2005 4:20 pm

Quoting 9252fly (Reply 42):
I've always wondered about AC interests in the TPE market. It occurred to me sometime ago,that their withdrawal from that market may have something to do with appeasing the Mainland and not jeopardizing that market. I'm wouldn't doubt if AC has been given a few hints from the authorities in Beijing about getting too cozy with Taipei.

I wondered that also. CP used to fly a daily 744 on the route. Seems odd that AC cannot seem to justify a much smaller 343 in a market that now must be larger than when CP had the 744 on the route.

keesje · Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:12 pm

** Last time Boeing offered to take Air Canada’s Airbus widebody fleet of eight A330-300s, 10 A340-300s and two A340-500s in exchange. If Air Canada cannot find buyers for its A340s and A330s, then Boeing agreed to take them, Milton said. http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/221614_boeingcanada26.html

** It also seems to have been a very sharp priced deal, Milton said : "I am confident no one has ever done better on a deal" http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/worl...biz/archives/2005/04/27/2003252224

** The deal was financed by the US government owned Export-Import Bank of the US, in Canadian dollars. The airliner also recently secured US$642 million in US financing and officials said they had negotiated a "progressive payment schedule" so that Air Canada would not be forced to put all the cash for the deal up front.

The deal earlier this year obviously was a extremely sweet one.

Will all these payment conditions remain intact on a possible renewed deal?

zvezda · Wed Nov 02, 2005 8:03 pm

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 34):
The 333 actually fits nicely between the 777 and the 787-8 capacity-wise.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 35):
the A333 and the 772 are right about the same size.

Cabin floor area:
B787-8: 226.8 sq meters
A350-900: 262.9 sq meters
B777-200ER: 279.0 sq meters

I believe the A330-300 and the A350-900 have the same cabin length, but that the A330-300 should be slightly narrower. So, if I'm remembering right that the A330-300 and A350-900 are comparably sized, then Yyz717 would appear to be correct.

ACdreamliner · Wed Nov 02, 2005 9:28 pm

Quoting Iloveboeing (Reply 40):
That's a pretty nice combination. More commonality in the segments.......this will definately reduce costs and make AC more competitive.

I've been studying AC a little today and I am absolutely impressed with the improvements they've made. These changes will help strengthen AC's position as one of the world's leading airlines!

Congratulations Air Canada and Boeing!

yes, they no have the lowest costs (even before the 787/777) than any legacy carrier in the World. even more so that who you might expect, i.e. Lufthansa etc. (I studied this for a university report).

beechnut · Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:21 pm

Quoting ACdreamliner (Reply 32):
Nope, the fleet will be:

CRJ/EMB - Short Haul
A32x - Medium Haul
787/777 - Long Haul

This is not quite accurate. The CRJs are being phased out of the mainline fleet and are all going to Jazz. Jazz's jet fleet will be exclusively CRJ, and AC's regional jet fleet will be exclusively Embraer.

Therefore the fleet will be EMB, A32x, 787 and 777.

Assuming the deal goes through with Boeing. It ain't over until the horizontally challenged lady sings, though I suspect it's about 99.9% certain.

It will be really cool to see how Boeing helps AC with lift capacity for 2006, especially heavy lift to Asia where the departure of the 747s has caused a great void.

Mike

accargo · Thu Nov 03, 2005 12:49 am

Milton confirmed on the 3rd quarter results conference call that the Boeing order will go ahead. No changes from what was previously announced except the delivery date for the first 777 will be early 2007 rather than mid 2006.

bmacleod · Thu Nov 03, 2005 1:03 am

With changes to the 787 design, I'd like to see a updated 787 illustration in AC colors....

Quoting AirCanada014 (Reply 19):
Boeing will buy those airbuses from AC.

The 333s too? Not sure AC will want to part with them just yet.....

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