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jumpseatflyer
Posts: 155
Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2005 12:13 pm

RE: Whats Wrong With This 747?

Thu Nov 10, 2005 10:38 am

Obviously they aborted b/c of the flaps...

My question is: what happens now? Flight attendants, ATC, knowledgable passangers... they all know that a HUGE mistake has been made. This seems like the kind of thing that would get rumored (if not documented) back to FlightOps/management.

"Now, you're a senior captian in charge of 300+ lives and a $100+ million aircraft, but since this is only strike one, its okay."  scratchchin 

I know nothing about the consequences (if any) of an incident like this. But I almost got fired for breaking a plate, and I only bus tables  flamed 
 
RiddlePilot215
Posts: 280
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2003 2:19 pm

RE: Whats Wrong With This 747?

Thu Nov 10, 2005 10:44 am

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 4):
Depends on the loadout and CG position, wind strength and direction, and runway length. Any plane can takeoff with zero flaps if there is enough space to do so.

Yeah, if they don't have a high efficiency lifting surface found on most jet airliners.

It's true any airplane can takeoff without flaps, but there is no civil runway in this world long enough to accomodate that.

It has to do with the wing sweep, and chord of the wing. It provides for amazing lift characteristics at cruise flight, however for takeoff and landing with lower airspeeds, they lose EVERY bit of their performance without extra lift-aiding devices.
God is good, all the time. All the time, God is good.
 
fspilot747
Posts: 3455
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 1999 2:58 am

RE: Whats Wrong With This 747?

Thu Nov 10, 2005 12:33 pm

IIRC, the A300 can take off without flaps deployed (I could be wrong, though).

Bellerophon, did you fly Concorde?
 
AirWillie6475
Posts: 2372
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2005 1:45 pm

RE: Whats Wrong With This 747?

Thu Nov 10, 2005 1:26 pm

Quoting AR385 (Reply 49):
Why can't the 747 --given enough runway length--cannot take off with zero flaps?

Oh sure, the the 747 could takeoff with no flaps but it would probably need 10,000 feet of runway going about 200knots.

The flaps change the airpressure around the wing and generating the extra lift to leave the ground with minimal airspeed.
 
JBirdAV8r
Posts: 3468
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2001 4:44 am

RE: Whats Wrong With This 747?

Thu Nov 10, 2005 1:32 pm

I watched a fully loaded Laker 727 taxi all the way to the runway with no flaps on a 94 degree and 90% relative humidity (read: miserable, especially for aircraft performance) day. It lined up and spooled the engines, then immediately pulled the power off and stopped. My heart was a lump in my throat watching it happen. In fact, as it entered the runway from the taxiway, my hand was on my cell phone to call the tower--images of the Delta 727 in DFW kept cycling through my head, and this runway was a good 2,000' shorter and a good bit higher than DFW's runways. I just figured I was wrong, though, so I didn't actually make the call. My guess is that the config horn sounded and they aborted. They taxied off to a remote corner for about five minutes, extended the flaps, and made a normal takeoff. Granted I don't know what power settings they used for takeoff, but with flaps extended they rolled a good 6500-7000 feet.

I swear, that was one of those "dream" moments. I felt like there was very little I could do if they hadn't stopped the takeoff run with no flaps--I was helpless.
I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
 
User avatar
malaysia
Posts: 2668
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 1999 3:26 am

RE: Whats Wrong With This 747?

Thu Nov 10, 2005 1:35 pm

I once was on an A319 which took off with spoilers extended, that was
kind of strange. but we still lifted fine.
There Are Those Who Believe That There May Yet Be Other Airlines Who Even Now Fight To Survive Beyond The Heavens
 
jbmflyer
Posts: 34
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2005 9:50 am

RE: Whats Wrong With This 747?

Thu Nov 10, 2005 1:36 pm

I thought that most current commercial service aircraft had multiple warning systems to prevent landing without gear, such as setting more than X degrees of flaps without the gear down sounds a warning and GPWS systems as well. Can anyone verify/correct me on this? Its been years since i took my systems class at ERAU
A pilots heart, mind and soul stuck in a 8-5 bankers chair.............
 
CX Flyboy
Posts: 6172
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 1999 6:10 pm

RE: Whats Wrong With This 747?

Thu Nov 10, 2005 1:37 pm

Indeed as so many of you have correctly said, the aircraft lined up with no flaps. Someone forgot to do the Before takeoff Checklist!! They went to full thrust then quickly brought the thrust back to idle before vacating the runway, and trying again.

We use the standard settings of Flaps10 or 20 for takeoff. I doubt you would ever see a no-flaps takeoff on a 744 unless it was a test flight.
 
Q330
Posts: 1425
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2003 5:30 pm

RE: Whats Wrong With This 747?

Thu Nov 10, 2005 1:48 pm

Quoting FSPilot747 (Reply 52):
IIRC, the A300 can take off without flaps deployed (I could be wrong, though).

Check it out:

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Photo © Oliver Brunke
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Photo © Bjoern Schmitt - world-of-aviation


Looks like they often do flapless takeoffs, but usually use leading edge devices.

-Q
Long live the A330!
 
474218
Posts: 4510
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 12:27 pm

RE: Whats Wrong With This 747?

Thu Nov 10, 2005 1:52 pm

Do

Quoting CX flyboy (Reply 57):
Indeed as so many of you have correctly said, the aircraft lined up with no flaps. Someone forgot to do the Before takeoff Checklist!! They went to full thrust then quickly brought the thrust back to idle before vacating the runway, and trying again.

We use the standard settings of Flaps10 or 20 for takeoff. I doubt you would ever see a no-flaps takeoff on a 744 unless it was a test flight.

I am sure the B744 has a configuration warning system, I know the L-1011 does. If the throttles are advanced to takeoff power and the flaps are not in a takeoff position, an unsafe warning horn will sound. I thought that the configuration warning horn is a FAA requirement.
 
sevenforeseven
Posts: 124
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2005 4:59 am

RE: Whats Wrong With This 747?

Thu Nov 10, 2005 3:23 pm

Flaps not set for takeoff. Config warning should have sounded in the cockpit as soon as the drivers applied throttle. The aircraft should not even have got as far as a few yards without the drivers aborting.
The only aircraft that I have been on has been A300B2/4 which can takeoff clean on a long runway without the need for any flap deployment.I am sure there are others but I am not too sure which ones they are.
 
Morvious
Posts: 657
Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2005 8:36 pm

RE: Whats Wrong With This 747?

Thu Nov 10, 2005 6:17 pm

Isn't it so in the -400 that if you don't have a minimum of flaps 10 set for takeoff, you will hear a warning sound in the cockpit when adding power over 70% N1?
have a good day,

HereThen
 
EI747SYDNEY
Topic Author
Posts: 686
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2005 8:28 pm

RE: Whats Wrong With This 747?

Thu Nov 10, 2005 7:28 pm

Quoting CX flyboy (Reply 57):
Indeed as so many of you have correctly said, the aircraft lined up with no flaps. Someone forgot to do the Before takeoff Checklist!! They went to full thrust then quickly brought the thrust back to idle before vacating the runway, and trying again.

Thanks for clearing that up CX flyboy. I think everyone had quite a good discussion on this one.

Rob  wave 
''Live life on the edge, Live each and every day like it's your last, Hell you only live once''
 
ChiGB1973
Posts: 1394
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 6:39 am

RE: Whats Wrong With This 747?

Thu Nov 10, 2005 8:14 pm

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 43):
BTW, why does this A/C have an "N" rego?



Quoting Qantas744ER (Reply 34):
Hey, Phillipine Airlines have 5 747-400`s The first one has a Phillipine registration RP-C8168, and is leased from GECA, the other 4 with american registrations N751PR, N752PR, N753PR and N754PR are leased from Wilmington Trust Co.

Lease from a U.S. lease company.

M
 
TheSonntag
Posts: 4522
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:23 pm

RE: Whats Wrong With This 747?

Thu Nov 10, 2005 8:52 pm

Quoting Airlinelover (Reply 47):

Strange, I actually had intended to write 747-100 but wrote 400 somehow. It was a 747-130, the accident would not have happened in the same way on a 747-400, but taking off without flaps on a 747 would certainly be bad no matter which one it is.
 
FlyNYC
Posts: 23
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2005 10:54 am

RE: Whats Wrong With This 747?

Fri Nov 11, 2005 5:45 am

Quoting Morvious (Reply 61):
Isn't it so in the -400 that if you don't have a minimum of flaps 10 set for takeoff, you will hear a warning sound in the cockpit when adding power over 70% N1?

That's absolutely correct. On a B744, if the following conditions are not met (while the airspeed less than V1, three or more fuel cutoff switches in the "run" position and commanded thrust on the #2 or #3 engine is advanced to the takeoff range), the aural takeoff configuration warning will sound, along with a "TAKEOFF CONFIG" message on EICAS and a master warning lights will illuminate:

CONFIG FLAPS - flaps not in takeoff configuration ("10" or "20")
CONFIG GEAR CTR - body landing gear not centered
CONFIG PARK BRK - parking brake is set
CONFIG SPOILERS - speed brake lever not in "down" position
CONFIG STAB - stabilizer trim not in takeoff range

Nearly all other commercial jetliners that I am familiar with have a similar warning system.

But as the story below highlights, warning horns don't always work:

Quoting FlyNYC (Reply 38):
31 Aug 1999; LV-WRZ, 737-200C, 20389/251, Del 17/4/70, LAPA; Buenos Aires, Argentina:

The aircraft settled back onto the runway just after takeoff, overran the runway, hit two cars on a nearby road, and caught fire. The crew had not selected take-off flap and had continued the takeoff despite the take-off configuration warning horn sounding for the entire 37 second take-off run. There were 65 fatalities among the 98 passengers and five crew members. Two of the occupants in the cars were also killed.

As it has often been mentioned, the B744 is physically able to takeoff without an lift devices deployed, given enough runway length and a total disregard for the maximum landing gear wheel speed (a speed that prevents the tire from separating due to the centrifugal forces of rotating at extreme speeds).

However, I think that the fact a B744 can takeoff without flaps is missing the point. Ground roll is not the only determining factor in determining whether or not a runway length is suitable. As private pilots know, the ability to clear objectives (a 50-foot obstacle) at the end of the runway is one additional factor. Most importantly, as multi-engine pilots know, is a thing called V1. This is the "takeoff safety" or "takeoff decision speed". It is a speed at which, with the failure of one engine, a multi-engine airplane may either 1) continue the takeoff and climb on the remaining engines or 2) stop the aircraft on the runway remaining.

So, unless you are taking off at Edwards AFB or on one of the other few, super long runways around the world, you won't be able to have a runway that meets V1 requirements with a no-flap takeoff in a B744. This is even more true with any sort of payload onboard. Secondly, you have to concern yourself with blowing out every tire on the aircraft.

Just because it "can" do something, doesn't mean that it is safe. The B707 demonstrated that it "can" do a complete roll at low altitude. That's certainly not something you want to do with passengers and really not recommended (or even legal) to be done at all... although, Tex Johnston's famous Seafair maneuver is legendary.

Proper use of checklists, good procedural "flows" and CRM practices hopefully eliminate most of the "forgetful" occurrences. Distractions can happen, ATC can and often does interrupt a flow or checklist call out, other things come up. That's why it's important to be extra vigilant during these instances. When all else falls, the "TAKEOFF CONFIG" warning comes in to save the day.

But as the B737 in Argentina shows... sometimes even the horns don't work... and they just go on blaring until the load "thud" at the end of the tape.
 
Bellerophon
Posts: 535
Joined: Thu May 09, 2002 10:12 am

RE: Whats Wrong With This 747?

Fri Nov 11, 2005 7:48 am

FlyNYC

Excellent post, Welcome to A-Net.

Regards

Bellerophon

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