Whats Wrong With This 747?

EI747SYDNEY · Wed Nov 09, 2005 8:48 pm

https://www.airliners.net/open.file/234872/L/

What did the author notice about this 747? I cant seem to see it. Can anyone help enlighten me as to what the problem is?

Thanks

Rob

kiwiandrew · Wed Nov 09, 2005 8:51 pm

ummm , I'm not a pilot , but shouldn't the flaps be deployed for take off ?

babaero · Wed Nov 09, 2005 8:51 pm

looks like no flaps set for take off

miamiair · Wed Nov 09, 2005 8:54 pm

I am not sure about the 747, but other airplanes can and do take off with 0 flaps. As long as the leading edge devices are deployed, this is possible. Maybe someone with 747 experience can elaborate.

md80fanatic · Wed Nov 09, 2005 9:28 pm

Depends on the loadout and CG position, wind strength and direction, and runway length. Any plane can takeoff with zero flaps if there is enough space to do so.

Thorben · Wed Nov 09, 2005 9:30 pm

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 4):
Depends on the loadout and CG position, wind strength and direction, and runway length. Any plane can takeoff with zero flaps if there is enough space to do so.

Hong Kong Kai Tak isn't a place with much space, is it?

md80fanatic · Wed Nov 09, 2005 9:58 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 5):
Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 4):
Depends on the loadout and CG position, wind strength and direction, and runway length. Any plane can takeoff with zero flaps if there is enough space to do so.

Hong Kong Kai Tak isn't a place with much space, is it?

Agreed

Hantsflyer27 · Wed Nov 09, 2005 11:11 pm

Sounds like something to do with the T/O proceedure, my first thoughts were also flaps....

although, one thing we will not see from a pic...are all external lights functioning as they should.....would this cause for an aborted T/O...would it be picked up in a pre-take off checklist? What about any pax/cargo doors not being shut correctly.

Regards, HF

jeffry747 · Wed Nov 09, 2005 11:16 pm

I highly doubt you will ever see a loaded 747 takeoff without its flaps set.

miamiair · Thu Nov 10, 2005 12:56 am

If the airplane is not properly configured, the take-off warning horn will sound out.

EI747SYDNEY · Thu Nov 10, 2005 1:24 am

Where is CXflyboy when you need him eh?

I sent him an IM but I dont think he is online at the moment.

Rob

socalfive · Thu Nov 10, 2005 1:28 am

Don't anyone forget the NW MD80 that crashed in Detroit in August of '87. That's exactly why, flaps/slats not set before takeoff and a stall.

VEEREF · Thu Nov 10, 2005 1:46 am

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 4):
Any plane can takeoff with zero flaps if there is enough space to do so.

Though I would imagine that your max tire speed would be exceeded in doing so!

HAWK21M · Thu Nov 10, 2005 2:16 am

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Daryl Chapman

Is it that the Flaps/Slats not extended.
regds
MEL

Qantas744er · Thu Nov 10, 2005 2:34 am

Yes, the problem on this pic is exactly that the Plaps/Slats are not extended, saddly it happens more and more now adays because after long years of flying pilot feel so sure about the checklist and do not use it, a MH 744 landing at EWR a couple of years ago forgot to extend its geras luckely the ATC controller told the pilot and they did a go around.

It is not possible for a 747-400 or 777,767,757,737,717,727 to takeoff withought plaps, the flaps on this aircraft should of been extendet at atleast 10 or 20 degrees.
The only aircraft i know that can do this is the fokker 100 it only needs its slats extended. I think if they didn`t abort the Takeoff it would of ended in a major Didaster.

Im happy nothing happened! Smile

Cheers Leo

miamiair · Thu Nov 10, 2005 2:36 am

Quoting Qantas744ER (Reply 14):
It is not possible for a 747-400 or 777,767,757,737,717,727 to takeoff withought plaps, the flaps on this aircraft should of been extendet at atleast 10 or 20 degrees.

And where do you get your information from?

kiwiandrew · Thu Nov 10, 2005 2:37 am

Quoting Qantas744ER (Reply 14):
a MH 744 landing at EWR a couple of years ago forgot to extend its geras

doesn't GPWS go off if below 500' and gear not extended ?

md80fanatic · Thu Nov 10, 2005 2:45 am

Quoting Socalfive (Reply 11):
Don't anyone forget the NW MD80 that crashed in Detroit in August of '87. That's exactly why, flaps/slats not set before takeoff and a stall.

The problem was that the pilots "assumed" the flaps/slats were set....and then rotated away before sufficient speed could be built up to climb with a safe AOA. I'm sure if they were going to try to takeoff clean then they would have extended the takeoff roll a little bit more.

miamiair · Thu Nov 10, 2005 2:47 am

Looked it up:

Take off settings 10 or 20 degrees for the -400.

Qantas744er · Thu Nov 10, 2005 2:55 am

Quoting Miamiair (Reply 15):
And where do you get your information from?

well because Airliners.NET has forums to read, I read them, and this is how over the past 2 years i havebuild up my general aviation knowledge.
And if you insist im wrong give me the proof and i will accept that, this is why these forums are there, not only to tell someone their wrong but to help them answer their question in the best way.

Cheers Leo

Qantas744er · Thu Nov 10, 2005 2:57 am

Quoting Miamiair (Reply 18):
Take off settings 10 or 20 degrees for the -400.

As I already menchioned before....

Cheers Leo

dogfighter2111 · Thu Nov 10, 2005 3:03 am

What is the open door underneath the L5 door?

Is it similar to the DC-10 door that opens whilst on the ground for presurisation?

I've never seen it before, that's why.

Thanks
Mike

cbphoto · Thu Nov 10, 2005 3:05 am

Quoting Qantas744ER (Reply 14):
The only aircraft i know that can do this is the fokker 100 it only needs its slats extended

Been on an LH A310 that departed with no flaps. I believe any aircraft that is light enough, or has adequate runway length to take off can take off with no flaps. It's normally not practical, due to the very high airspeed needed for sufficient lift.

socalfive · Thu Nov 10, 2005 3:35 am

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 17):
I'm sure if they were going to try to takeoff clean then they would have extended the takeoff roll a little bit more.

...and "IF" my grandmother had wheels, she'd be a wagon. Point is, the flaps/slats were NOT set, I'm sure they did "assume" it, trouble is assuming something such as flaps would make one "assume" someone other than the flight crew was responsible for setting the wing configuration. That of course isn't the case. At the end of the day, it was Pilot error for NOT covering the checklist on taxi, you can read about it in the NTSB report. And by the way, loaded and fueled airliners don't ever EVER take off "clean". You need higher speeds, longer runways and the chances of aborting a takeoff is greatly reduced. Extension of flaps/slats, increases wing area, produces more lift at lower airspeed.

tomgib · Thu Nov 10, 2005 3:38 am

I´ve been on several LH A300-600 flights from FRA-HAM where no flaps were deployed. Since I was mostly behind the wing it was hard to see, but I guess the slats were out. Still, quite an impressive performance by this plane.

Bellerophon · Thu Nov 10, 2005 4:16 am

Socalfive

...loaded and fueled airliners don't ever EVER take off "clean"...

The four engined passenger jet I flew for many years always took off clean.

Regards

Bellerophon

waketurbulence · Thu Nov 10, 2005 4:18 am

Quoting Qantas744ER (Reply 14):
It is not possible for a 747-400 or 777,767,757,737,717,727

Scratch the 767. I read a thread about 3 months ago describing a 'slats only' takeoff.

"Slats only takeoffs (no flaps) are approved on several widebody types, including the A300-600 and the Boeing 767-200.
Slats only departures increase the takeoff distance required, but improve the second segment climb performance.
https://www.airliners.net/discussions/tech_ops/read.main/98045
-Matt

peachair · Thu Nov 10, 2005 5:41 am

I once was sitting in F/C on a B767-400 when the pilots applied full throttle for take off, I looked out the window at the leading edge of the wing. I nervously noticed the leading edge slats were not set, you can image the feeling in my stomach. We only rolled about 100ft before I could hear a loud click come from the cockpit. I was told by a mechanic later that these were the throttles "snapping" back to the detent position. It appears that the flight crew forgot to set the flaps. We taxied off at the next intersection and got back in line for take off, this time the flaps/slats deployed as we rounded the corner to get back in line. The capt. came on and said our takeoff clearance was cancelled and we would "try again". Nothing more was mentioned, but I have to admit I am glad that config warning system is in place to prevent aircraft from taking off.

Geo772 · Thu Nov 10, 2005 5:42 am

Quoting Dogfighter2111 (Reply 21):
What is the open door underneath the L5 door?

One of the two aft outflow valves.

They are always open on the ground to stop the aircraft pressurising.

md80fanatic · Thu Nov 10, 2005 5:46 am

There is one benefit of a flapless/slatless takeoff.....no chance for configuration asymmetry. duck

drinkstrolley · Thu Nov 10, 2005 6:31 am

Quoting Qantas744ER (Reply 14):

It is not possible for a 747-400 or 777,767,757,737,717,727 to takeoff withought plaps, the flaps on this aircraft should of been extendet at atleast 10 or 20 degrees.
The only aircraft i know that can do this is the fokker 100 it only needs its slats extended. I think if they didn`t abort the Takeoff it would of ended in a major Didaster.

I do believe you are talking bollocks.

drinkstrolley · Thu Nov 10, 2005 6:48 am

Quoting Drinkstrolley (Reply 30):
asymmetry

My granny is buried in one of them........
Wink

PW100 · Thu Nov 10, 2005 6:51 am

Quote:
The only aircraft i know that can do this is the fokker 100 it only needs its slats extended. I think if they didn`t abort the Takeoff it would of ended in a major Didaster.

Both the F70 and F100 does not have leading edge slats [see photos]. And yes, both do flapless take-offs [again, see photos].

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Harm Rutten

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Harm Rutten

Kind Regards,
PW100

patallen · Thu Nov 10, 2005 6:57 am

who do philipine airlines lease their aircraft from? with the us registrations?
if you dont mind me asking?

Qantas744er · Thu Nov 10, 2005 7:12 am

Quoting Patallen (Reply 33):
who do philipine airlines lease their aircraft from? with the us registrations?
if you dont mind me asking?

Hey, Phillipine Airlines have 5 747-400`s The first one has a Phillipine registration RP-C8168, and is leased from GECA, the other 4 with american registrations N751PR, N752PR, N753PR and N754PR are leased from Wilmington Trust Co.

All 747-400`s are full pax exept N754PR wich is a Combi.

Hope I halped You Smile

Cheers Leo

ACdreamliner · Thu Nov 10, 2005 7:21 am

i think its the small open door just under the rear most passenger door...

access-air · Thu Nov 10, 2005 7:37 am

I have seen a USAir DC9-30s make no flap takeoffs from OHare....Leading edge slats were down but Zero flaps...
I have also done a Zero flap take off on an American Fokker 100....
And yes, the Fokker 100 or 70 have NO leading edge flaps...

Access-Air

Mr.BA · Thu Nov 10, 2005 8:01 am

For the B747-400, flaps is required for a take-off. From an aerodynamic point of view, it should be able to lift off with flaps (since the plane can already fly)but at high speed. However it is not designed that way. No matter how light a B747 is, flaps must be set at 10 or 20 in order for the take-off to be proceed. There are only charts and figures for performance and speeds for flaps 10 and 20 for different weights. It is totally against procedure without flaps and there's just no way one can go ahead and take off without flaps even if you're empty. In addition, a warning light and a sound would come on when the throttles are advanced without the flaps being set at the appropriate position.

Planes like the A300 and A310 mentioned above are certified to take off with only the slats deployed. It is tested and approved by the manufacturer and there are figures and performance charts for that take off configuration and hence pilots can consider that take-off flap settting.

[Edited 2005-11-10 00:02:53]

FlyNYC · Thu Nov 10, 2005 8:31 am

As it has been mentioned in this forum several times, the B744 must have both leading edge slats AND trailing edge flaps deployed for takeoff, either a selection of "Flaps 10" or "Flaps 20", under ALL conditions. Other aircraft types may be approved for a "slats only" takeoff setting, depending on the airplane and the situation.

It's important to remember regardless of the range of takeoff flap settings that are available to a pilot, it is not randomly chosen on each departure. The flap setting is dependant on many factors, such as weight, CG, runway length, weather conditions, obstructions and noise abatement. Once the flap setting has been chosen, it is used to determine the V1, VR and V2 speeds.

The most critical thing though, is to insure that the flap settings are in the approved, safe range for takeoff. Mishandling of the flaps during takeoff, landing and go-arounds have been the demise of countless pilots & passengers, from Cessna 152s to Boeing 747s.

Because flap settings are so vital, commercial airliners have an aural alert that warns the flight crew that the aircraft is not in takeoff configuration when the throttles are advanced into the takeoff range on the ground.

However, from this story below, the warning horn doesn't always help:

31 Aug 1999; LV-WRZ, 737-200C, 20389/251, Del 17/4/70, LAPA; Buenos Aires, Argentina:

The aircraft settled back onto the runway just after takeoff, overran the runway, hit two cars on a nearby road, and caught fire. The crew had not selected take-off flap and had continued the takeoff despite the take-off configuration warning horn sounding for the entire 37 second take-off run. There were 65 fatalities among the 98 passengers and five crew members. Two of the occupants in the cars were also killed.

Luckily for the crew of the Philippine Airlines jet, they figured it out and rejected the takeoff.

CosmicCruiser · Thu Nov 10, 2005 8:44 am

Actually the caption under this picture said they aborted the t/o and configured and took off. No discussion necessary.

Quoting Qantas744ER (Reply 14):
saddly it happens more and more now adays because after long years of flying pilot feel so sure about the checklist and do not use it

And No I don't think that it happens more and more nowdays because pilots think they don't have to use the checklist. Probably if the true be known it happens less and less.

A3204eva · Thu Nov 10, 2005 8:47 am

A 747 cannot takeoff without flaps being set correctly. It would most likely crash soon after departure.

Electech6299 · Thu Nov 10, 2005 9:23 am

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 39):
Actually the caption under this picture said they aborted the t/o and configured and took off. No discussion necessary.

Huh? Read that caption again...

Quote:
CX flyboy and I noticed something unusual about this 747. The pilots obviously did not!! They aborted the takeoff and corrected the problem before trying again.

Aborted the takeoff and corrected the problem. No mention of "reconfigured". I thought this was a good thread- and an excellent discussion. I agree with several above- "luckily" the pilots recognized the problem and corrected it, despite failing to follow the t/o checklist. Most crashes are attributed to pilot error, I hate it when something this glaring causes an incident. It gives a bad rep to the airline and pilots worldwide. So again, "luckily", the worst didn't happen, and I hope it never does...

md80fanatic · Thu Nov 10, 2005 9:38 am

There is a difference between flapless/slatless takeoffs being a possibility, and being recommended.

Yes, the AP being in Take Off mode requires a flap 10 or 20 else the horn will sound, or handles snap back, or whatever. It's a whole different deal to say that it is impossible to accomplish a takeoff without flaps/slats.

I am sure many thought a 707 could not accomplish a loop, until one did. thumbsup

Cadet57 · Thu Nov 10, 2005 9:52 am

Quoting Drinkstrolley (Reply 31):
Quoting Drinkstrolley (Reply 30):
asymmetry

My granny is buried in one of them........

me works in one.... and welcome to my RU list Wink

BTW, why does this A/C have an "N" rego?

TheSonntag · Thu Nov 10, 2005 10:03 am

A LH 747-400 crashed in 1974 because its slats were not deployed. The cause was never completely clarified, therefore the crew (which survived) was not found guilty as a failure could not be proven.

http://www.airdisaster.com/cgi-bin/v...1201974Â®=D-ABYB&airline=Lufthansa

CosmicCruiser · Thu Nov 10, 2005 10:11 am

Quoting Electech6299 (Reply 41):
Aborted the takeoff and corrected the problem. No mention of "reconfigured".

Gee, I guess I just ASSUMMED (my mistake) that "aborted and corrected the problem" MEANT they aborted and selected t/o slats/flaps which in my world means reconfigured (from the previous configuration).

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 42):
am sure many thought a 707 could not accomplish a loop, until one did.

Actually it was a roll if you're speaking of the roll done by the Boeing test pilot.

md80fanatic · Thu Nov 10, 2005 10:13 am

hmmm, I could have sworn it was a loop. [scratching head]
A roll is hardly even newsworthy.

But as it is....you are correct. (I just checked it)

The video: http://www.alexisparkinn.com/photogallery/Videos/707%20Roll.mpg

[Edited 2005-11-10 02:18:14]

[Edited 2005-11-10 02:19:58]

airlinelover · Thu Nov 10, 2005 10:16 am

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 44):
A LH 747-400 crashed in 1974 because its slats were not deployed. The cause was never completely clarified, therefore the crew (which survived) was not found guilty as a failure could not be proven.

http://www.airdisaster.com/cgi-bin/v...hansa

747-400's were not around in 1974.. I believe it was a 747-100...

Chris

[Edited 2005-11-10 02:18:10]

Cadet57 · Thu Nov 10, 2005 10:19 am

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 46):
A roll is hardly even newsworthy.

in 1959 with the US's and boeings first jet transport it was, espically when done over a lake with a boatload of Boeing execs/stockholders, and chairman on board looking on.

AR385 · Thu Nov 10, 2005 10:32 am

Why can't the 747 --given enough runway length--cannot take off with zero flaps?

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