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abba
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SQ Told: A380 Better Than Promised

Sat Nov 12, 2005 2:10 pm

Whether or not the A380 will be able to fulfill the promises given by Airbus to its launch customers has been debated at times even vigorously. South China Morning Post today reports from Singapore that Airbus has told SIA:

"[-] that early indications were the A380 was exceeding its performance guarantees".

One might of cause say that the wording is rather "safe". However, if Airbus is now telling its customers that the bird will do better than expected they must be pretty sure that this will also be the case.


Abba
 
PhilSquares
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RE: SQ Told: A380 Better Than Promised

Sat Nov 12, 2005 2:15 pm

Quoting Abba (Thread starter):
However, if Airbus is now telling its customers that the bird will do better than expected they must be pretty sure that this will also be the case.

Airbus also told SQ they would have the 380 in March 2006. So much for what Airbus says.

Big rumor now is a 15 747A order in Dec......
 
United Airline
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RE: SQ Told: A380 Better Than Promised

Sat Nov 12, 2005 2:18 pm

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 1):
Big rumor now is a 15 747A order in Dec......

With options like another 10-20 I guess? Like what they did to the B 777-300ER
 
abba
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RE: SQ Told: A380 Better Than Promised

Sat Nov 12, 2005 2:23 pm

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 1):
Airbus also told SQ they would have the 380 in March 2006. So much for what Airbus says

Nice question to you: What is the logical difference between what you refer to now and what Airbus is quoted as saying to their customers now?


Abba
 
kaitak744
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RE: SQ Told: A380 Better Than Promised

Sat Nov 12, 2005 2:26 pm

Quoting United Airline (Reply 2):
B 777-300ER

I think they would have ordered the 777-300ER whether the A380 was delayed or not. And I also see an upcoming 777-200LR order inevitable.

A fleet of 777-200ER, 777-200LR, 777-300ER and A380 is a a perfect combination. And perhaps eventually the 787-9 and -3 or A350-800? I realy dont see them ordering the 787-8. It is simply too small.
 
PhilSquares
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RE: SQ Told: A380 Better Than Promised

Sat Nov 12, 2005 2:30 pm

Quoting Abba (Reply 3):
What is the logical difference between what you refer to now and what Airbus is quoted as saying to their customers now?

My point is first, Airbus doesn't have a lot of credibility with SQ right now and secondly, what would you expect them to say?
 
abba
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RE: SQ Told: A380 Better Than Promised

Sat Nov 12, 2005 2:34 pm

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 4):
A fleet of 777-200ER, 777-200LR, 777-300ER and A380 is a a perfect combination. And perhaps eventually the 787-9 and -3 or A350-800? I realy don't see them ordering the 787-8. It is simply too small.

I think - particular as far as the last comment is concerned - you are right. To me it appears as if SQ's tactic to stay competitive over the upcoming LCCs (of which Singapore has its fair share - HKG has far fewer) is to use big planes and give a decent service. The 787-8 I agree is out of the question and I even believe that SQ has stated that officially. However, I might not exclude the possibility of SQ getting the bigger 350s to replace 777-300ERs. A sweet deal from Airbus here could be the compensation for the late delivery of the 380.

Abba
 
ikramerica
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RE: SQ Told: A380 Better Than Promised

Sat Nov 12, 2005 2:36 pm

Quoting Abba (Thread starter):
"[-] that early indications were the A380 was exceeding its performance guarantees".

That's great news, as we'll see more of them at LAX if it is exceeding performance promises, since LAX is a long way for 747s and 777s on some routes and they must limit payload to do it. Will be nice if the A380 can be fully loaded on those flights.

Thing is, why did the airlines lower their seating capacities if the performance was higher? Just to fit in more premium pax? Would it be expected that Y seating capacity might be revised back upward if performance allows it?
 
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RayChuang
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RE: SQ Told: A380 Better Than Promised

Sat Nov 12, 2005 2:48 pm

I think what Airbus needs to do is demonstrate it can fly LAX-HKG non-stop year-round at standard MTOW for the A380-800. If they can do that expect Cathay Pacific (CX) to get the plane in no time flat, because the flights between LAX and HKG are among the most busy flights on the CX route system.
 
antares
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RE: SQ Told: A380 Better Than Promised

Sat Nov 12, 2005 2:55 pm

Ikramerica,

It could be that the QF reduction in seat count on the A380 to 472, the lowest yet published, reflects second thoughts or even intelligence as to what EK and SQ plan to do in their cabins.

The weight saving in putting in demi suites and so forth is apparently negative.

I'm keen to see what happens on LAX-MEL. I've only done it twice but I recall we were payload restricted on each occasion. Even getting 360 passengers on that route might be a pretty good outcome, but time will tell.

The importance of premium traffic to Melbourne should not be underestimated, even though the corp[orate long haul sector is contracting and refusing to pay full whack, it remains icing on the cake that is worth fighting for.

When rather than if non-stops to London and from New York to Sydney or Melbourne become both technically and economically feasible both markets are going to be peed off if one city gets a benefit the others don't. I believe there are more resources industry passengers out of Melbourne than Sydney and the banking sector is about equal. Would love to see impartial data that showed all the major sources of such traffic from both centres, but that is about as likely as being turned loose in Fort Knox with a fork lift and told to go for it.

Antares
 
kaitak744
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RE: SQ Told: A380 Better Than Promised

Sat Nov 12, 2005 3:06 pm

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 8):
If they can do that expect Cathay Pacific (CX) to get the plane in no time flat, because the flights between LAX and HKG are among the most busy flights on the CX route system.

Well, of coarse! Because they have no competition! (on LAX - HKG)

Quoting Abba (Reply 6):
However, I might not exclude the possibility of SQ getting the bigger 350s to replace 777-300ERs. A sweet deal from Airbus here could be the compensation for the late delivery of the 380.

1. The A350 does not replace the 777-300ER.
2. I honestly do not see any major carrier order the A350 as a 777-200ER replacement until Boeing actually has their own version. (the 787-10x). I say this because airlines have learned their lessons to not order an aircraft until its competitor is offered. This way, they can make an educated decision.
 
QFA001
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RE: SQ Told: A380 Better Than Promised

Sat Nov 12, 2005 3:08 pm

Quoting Antares (Reply 9):
It could be that the QF reduction in seat count on the A380 to 472, the lowest yet published, reflects second thoughts or even intelligence as to what EK and SQ plan to do in their cabins.

Or (C), QF 'manufactured' a higher seat-count than planned to throw their competitors off the smoke-trail.  Wink

FWIW, if BA buys A380s, I think they'd go close to having the lowest seat count. Their class mix is just so heavily tilted in favour of premium classes.

Quoting Antares (Reply 9):
I'm keen to see what happens on LAX-MEL. I've only done it twice but I recall we were payload restricted on each occasion. Even getting 360 passengers on that route might be a pretty good outcome, but time will tell.

The A380 has significantly (ie. meaningful) increase in range-for-payload compared to the B747-400ER. It's one of the reasons why QF (along with SQ for SIN-LHR) pushed Airbus into a higher MTOW initial model. So, it should do much better than 360 pax (depending on cargo carried, ofcourse).

Quoting Antares (Reply 9):
I believe there are more resources industry passengers out of Melbourne than Sydney and the banking sector is about equal.

I don't know about the first part, but the second part isn't close to being true in the international context. Alas, I can't provide you with data to prove it.

 airplane QFA001
 
astuteman
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RE: SQ Told: A380 Better Than Promised

Sat Nov 12, 2005 4:54 pm

Quoting QFA001 (Reply 11):
FWIW, if BA buys A380s, I think they'd go close to having the lowest seat count. Their class mix is just so heavily tilted in favour of premium classes.

BA will have the most overweight frames then?  Wink

Quoting QFA001 (Reply 11):
The A380 has significantly (ie. meaningful) increase in range-for-payload compared to the B747-400ER. It's one of the reasons why QF (along with SQ for SIN-LHR) pushed Airbus into a higher MTOW initial model

NAV20 + Ruscoe have a more sinister view of the MTOW increase  Smile

FWIW, I'm in your camp on both points.
A
 
United Airline
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RE: SQ Told: A380 Better Than Promised

Sat Nov 12, 2005 5:40 pm

I think Boeing has stated that the B 787-10 is not a priority since the B 777-200ER is doing very well.

I suppose Singapore Airlines will order 15-25 B 747 Advanced with options (They have options for the B 777-300ER).

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 10):
1. The A350 does not replace the 777-300ER.

Exactly.

Quoting Abba (Reply 6):
The 787-8 I agree is out of the question and I even believe that SQ has stated that officially.

The B 787-3 is out of the question. But I do see them getting the B 787-8/B787-9 to start less busy routes such as SIN-MAD (or via another city), SIN-ORD, SIN-HKG-LAS, SIN-HKG-TPE or routes to South America etc. Both the B 787-8 and the B 787-9 are included in the RFP.

There is a chance that they might replace the A 340-500 with the B 777-200LR with additional orders.
 
boeing767-300
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RE: SQ Told: A380 Better Than Promised

Sat Nov 12, 2005 6:13 pm

Quoting Abba (Reply 6):
However, I might not exclude the possibility of SQ getting the bigger 350s to replace 777-300ERs. A sweet deal from Airbus here could be the compensation for the late delivery of the 380.

Hey Abba what are you smoking it must be good stuff.

If you think any version of A350 is bigger than 777-300ER you are seriously deluded.  crazy 

While we are on the subject what are the aircraft lengths of 787-8 and A350 800 and the 787-10 and A350 900?
 
leelaw
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RE: SQ Told: A380 Better Than Promised

Sat Nov 12, 2005 6:14 pm

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 12):
NAV20 + Ruscoe have a more sinister view of the MTOW increase

Not really, IIRC, they aren't questioning increased MTOW/performance compared to the 744. They are questioning whether the increased[ing] MTOW of A380 represents additional capability (i.e. increased range/payload) than was originally promised to customers, or is the MTOW increase necessary to meet the original range/payload targets set for the WhaleJet (i.e. 8000nm with 555 pax).

Does Airbus have a history of increasing MTOW without an increase in range/payload performance in any other programs?
 
PhilSquares
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RE: SQ Told: A380 Better Than Promised

Sat Nov 12, 2005 6:19 pm

Quoting QFA001 (Reply 11):
The A380 has significantly (ie. meaningful) increase in range-for-payload compared to the B747-400ER. It's one of the reasons why QF (along with SQ for SIN-LHR) pushed Airbus into a higher MTOW initial model.

I disagree! If that was the case, then CX should have ordered them rather than trying to get second hand 744s. If you look at the empty weight/pax configuration you get a very heavy aircraft. It is obese when you compare it to the 744.

Higher empty weight means higher fuel burn. Increasing the MTOW was a very inexpensive way to meet "paper" performance.
 
trent900
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RE: SQ Told: A380 Better Than Promised

Sat Nov 12, 2005 6:23 pm

Quoting United Airline (Reply 13):
suppose Singapore Airlines will order 15-25 B 747 Advanced with options

To replace 747-4's or expansion?

D.
 
JetMaster
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RE: SQ Told: A380 Better Than Promised

Sat Nov 12, 2005 6:25 pm

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 16):
If that was the case, then CX should have ordered them rather than trying to get second hand 744s.

Who tells you that CX is the one and only representative airline for judging the A380? There might have been a number of reasons for picking second hand B747s not related to the A380 at all.


Regards,
JM
 
manni
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RE: SQ Told: A380 Better Than Promised

Sat Nov 12, 2005 6:49 pm

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 1):
Airbus also told SQ they would have the 380 in March 2006. So much for what Airbus says.

Big rumor now is a 15 747A order in Dec......

According to this article

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au.../0,5744,17203217%255E23349,00.html

it might aswell be A380's. Perhaps they'll excercise options for the A380, while their cargo division gets the 747Adv. I also recall someone at SIA saying that they'd rather "abuse" the A380 then ordering the 747Adv. Will be interesting to see what the final decision will be, nevertheless.
 
CrazyHorse
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RE: SQ Told: A380 Better Than Promised

Sat Nov 12, 2005 6:59 pm

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 1):
Airbus also told SQ they would have the 380 in March 2006. So much for what Airbus says.

The delay of the A380 is for Airbus and SQ a problem,
But when an airline order a new aircraft, before this aircraft has their first take off, the carrier had to calculate a delay.

Quoting Abba (Thread starter):
Whether or not the A380 will be able to fulfill the promises given by Airbus to its launch customers has been debated at times even vigorously. South China Morning Post today reports from Singapore that Airbus has told SIA:

"[-] that early indications were the A380 was exceeding its performance guarantees".

This were good news for the A380 program and I think some airlines will order this bird also, when the A380 is working well and bring money to the operator of this aircraft.
All airlines know, that the slots for the A380 are sold out for a long time, and they could wait, how the Bigbus is doing in service.
I am sure, the aircraft is working well.
 
abba
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RE: SQ Told: A380 Better Than Promised

Sat Nov 12, 2005 7:15 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 7):
Thing is, why did the airlines lower their seating capacities if the performance was higher? Just to fit in more premium pax? Would it be expected that Y seating capacity might be revised back upward if performance allows it?

If I was running an airline that would be precisely my strategy as the 380 provides such ample space that you would be able to provide a service up front that would drain premium pax from all other airlines. Remember that no one says that the 35% (or so) extra space pr seat have to be distributed evenly between all pax!

Besides which airline - except perhaps for Ryan Air and the worst of the charter operators - do not lower their seat count compared to the "typical seating"?

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 10):
1. The A350 does not replace the 777-300ER.
2. I honestly do not see any major carrier order the A350 as a 777-200ER replacement until Boeing actually has their own version. (the 787-10x). I say this because airlines have learned their lessons to not order an aircraft until its competitor is offered. This way, they can make an educated decision.

Ad 1 - you are right - it should be 200...

Ad 2 - Makes sense in general. However Airbus might pay SQ compensation for late arrival of the A380 by giving them a very sweet deal on the 350 and as such makes this situation somewhat unique.


Abba
 
abba
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RE: SQ Told: A380 Better Than Promised

Sat Nov 12, 2005 7:23 pm

Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 14):
If you think any version of A350 is bigger than 777-300ER you are seriously deluded

What have you been smoking? I'd never said that the 350 is bigger than the 777-200! There is a smaler and a bigger A350 to be offered. AFAIR called 800 and 900 respectively. The bigger of the two could replace 777-200ERs...

Abba
 
PhilSquares
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RE: SQ Told: A380 Better Than Promised

Sat Nov 12, 2005 7:56 pm

Quoting CrazyHorse (Reply 20):
But when an airline order a new aircraft, before this aircraft has their first take off, the carrier had to calculate a delay.

However, if the mfgr insists there is no problem and doesn't reveal the problem until late in the program that is the type of delay that is unacceptable!!
 
pmg1704
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RE: SQ Told: A380 Better Than Promised

Sat Nov 12, 2005 9:11 pm

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 1):
Airbus also told SQ they would have the 380 in March 2006. So much for what Airbus says.

Big rumor now is a 15 747A order in Dec......

Hey Phil, love the trip reports. Sounds like you're licking your lips for some left seat time in a 747A...

Did they start training the SQ guys yet for the 380?

PG
 
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glideslope
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RE: SQ Told: A380 Better Than Promised

Sat Nov 12, 2005 9:35 pm

Quoting ABA (Thread starter):
Whether or not the A will be able to fulfill the promises given by Airbus to its launch customers has been debated at times even vigorously. South China Morning Post today reports from Singapore that Airbus has told SAA:

"[-] that early indications were the A was exceeding its performance guarantees".

One might of cause say that the wording is rather "safe". However, if Airbus is now telling its customers that the bird will do better than expected they must be pretty sure that this will also be the case.


ABA

Desperate times lead to inflated statements.
 
CrazyHorse
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RE: SQ Told: A380 Better Than Promised

Sat Nov 12, 2005 9:40 pm

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 23):
However, if the mfgr insists there is no problem and doesn't reveal the problem until late in the program that is the type of delay that is unacceptable!!

I agree, but Airbus has reported the delay of A380 program quite early. Six month are a long time, but the Airlines have enough time to look for alternatives in this 6 months.
 
JetMaster
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RE: SQ Told: A380 Better Than Promised

Sat Nov 12, 2005 10:11 pm

Quoting Glideslope (Reply 25):
Desperate times lead to inflated statements.

Desperate about what excatly?


Regards,
JM
 
manni
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RE: SQ Told: A380 Better Than Promised

Sat Nov 12, 2005 10:54 pm

Quoting JetMaster (Reply 27):
Desperate about what excatly?

-record profit margins, roughly 11,5%
-10 more aircraft deliveries this year than planned
-an order backlog of roughly 1680 aircraft
-roughly 450 firm orders so far this year

the competition

-a profit margin roughly 7,5%
-less aircraft deliveries this year than planned, due to strike
-an order backlog of 1509 aircraft.
-more than 659 firm orders so far this year

Both companies are doing just fine, the only ones who are desperate at the moment are those that would like to see either one of the manufacturers fail.

Anyone?  Wink
 
abba
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RE: SQ Told: A380 Better Than Promised

Sat Nov 12, 2005 10:55 pm

Quoting Glideslope (Reply 25):
Desperate times lead to inflated statements

What kind of sense - if any (most likely) - is this supposed to make??????

 Yeah sure  Confused  boggled   crazy   drunk   hypnotized   knockout   mad   melting   razz 

Or are we here seeing yet another Boeing fanatic out of her right mind due to the apparent fact that the worst case senario did not materialize and the wildest of speculations proved to be nothing but wishful thinking???!!!

(in which case the above statement perfectly refer to itself!!)


Abba
 
JetMaster
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RE: SQ Told: A380 Better Than Promised

Sat Nov 12, 2005 11:03 pm

Quoting Manni (Reply 28):
-record profit margins, roughly 11,5%
-10 more aircraft deliveries this year than planned
-an order backlog of roughly 1680 aircraft
-roughly 450 firm orders so far this year

Thanks for that summary - it definitely shows why Airbus is "desperate" and has no choice but making "inflating statements"...  Wink


Regards,
JM
 
boeingbus
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RE: SQ Told: A380 Better Than Promised

Sat Nov 12, 2005 11:32 pm

Quoting JetMaster (Reply 30):
it definitely shows why Airbus is "desperate" and has no choice but making "inflating statements"...

But you have to admit that Airbus is being overly cautious almost to the point that its walking on egg shells. They have to get this bird right and ontime so that they will not upset their current A380 customers and gain new customers. I agree, there is nothing that Airbus is doing that I would call desperation.

Back to the topic, I think you can't read too much into this. Airbus is stating things that customers wants to hear. It's all PR... substance will come out of SIA when this bird flies... that is when she will prove herself... not manufacter statements...

cheers

Ric
 
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RayChuang
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RE: SQ Told: A380 Better Than Promised

Sun Nov 13, 2005 12:01 am

I think the most important thing right now is that Airbus can demonstrate they can fly the A380-800 at the stated range of 8,000 nautical miles at standard MTOW of 560 metric tons. If they can do this expect additional follow-up sales of the A380, especially to QF and possibly SQ; I can also see CX get a number of A388's through a long-term ILFC lease just to fly the busy route between HKG and LAX.  Smile
 
airxliban
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RE: SQ Told: A380 Better Than Promised

Sun Nov 13, 2005 12:02 am

Why should the A380 have any problem flying LAX-HKG? It is supposed to have a range of 8000nm!

Also does anyone have any idea...if EK was the first to place an order as per the airliners.net A380 page, why is SQ received the first aircraft? Did EK order the GP7200 or something? If so, why? I thought they liked the rollers...all their 772ERs, 773s and A330s have rollers underneath the wings...
 
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RayChuang
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RE: SQ Told: A380 Better Than Promised

Sun Nov 13, 2005 12:05 am

Quoting AirxLiban (Reply 33):
Why should the A380 have any problem flying LAX-HKG? It is supposed to have a range of 8000nm!

I've read that during the winter months CX has to fly the RB.211-524H-powered 747-400's on a restricted load due to strong headwinds and/or flying the longer route from LAX to Hawaii, then across the Pacific to Guam before heading to HKG.
 
flyAUA
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RE: SQ Told: A380 Better Than Promised

Sun Nov 13, 2005 12:23 am

This is great news for the A388. Thanks for sharing... I don't think Airbus would make such a statement towards SIA if they weren't absolutely sure about it since the testing had it's bad phases. I am sure that some of the airlines that were being sceptical about an order will start (now at the latest) to consider it as an option for their fleet expansion plans  Smile

And, slightly off topic, but the first A380 flight deck picture is now on a.net Big grin
First A380 Flight Deck Pic On A.net... WOW! (by FlyAUA Nov 12 2005 in Aviation Photography)
 
Amy
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RE: SQ Told: A380 Better Than Promised

Sun Nov 13, 2005 1:51 am

Quoting AirxLiban (Reply 33):
Why should the A380 have any problem flying LAX-HKG? It is supposed to have a range of 8000nm!

That's maximum range of the arcraft but not at MTOW... I believe (could be wrong)

Whether it can economically fly LAX-HKG with a full payload is the question and that has yet to be proven.

Boeing and Airbus both set realitic targets for the aircraft expecting them to come in a little higher than they first said, it's just intelligent business.
 
astuteman
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RE: SQ Told: A380 Better Than Promised

Sun Nov 13, 2005 1:58 am

Quoting AirxLiban (Reply 33):
Did EK order the GP7200 or something?

In a word, Yes
 
kappel
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RE: SQ Told: A380 Better Than Promised

Sun Nov 13, 2005 2:03 am

Quoting FlyAUA (Reply 35):
This is great news for the A388. Thanks for sharing... I don't think Airbus would make such a statement towards SIA if they weren't absolutely sure about it since the testing had it's bad phases

Exactly. Saying it to the press and saying it to an already displeased customer are two different things. If they say this to SIA and it turns out to be false, they can forget any future orders. They would have destroyed their credibility.
 
LifelinerOne
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RE: SQ Told: A380 Better Than Promised

Sun Nov 13, 2005 2:33 am

Quoting JetMaster (Reply 18):
There might have been a number of reasons for picking second hand B747s not related to the A380 at all.

I can think of one: money!

Cheers!  wave 
 
QFA001
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RE: SQ Told: A380 Better Than Promised

Sun Nov 13, 2005 3:00 am

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 12):
NAV20 + Ruscoe have a more sinister view of the MTOW increase

FWIW, I'm in your camp on both points.

Weight is weight. If airlines are unimpressed with A380 economics, then they won't buy it. However, Airbus is saying that lower-than-expected drag and better-than-expected SFC are going to improve the lot of the A380. If they're lying, then the whole world will know in about a year's time. If they're not, then all the sinister views of A380's weight will be shouted down.

However, I think it might be unfair on Ruscoe to include him in the same league as NAV20. Ruscoe can count; NAV20 can't.

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 15):
Not really, IIRC, they aren't questioning increased MTOW/performance compared to the 744. They are questioning whether the increased[ing] MTOW of A380 represents additional capability (i.e. increased range/payload) than was originally promised to customers, or is the MTOW increase necessary to meet the original range/payload targets set for the WhaleJet (i.e. 8000nm with 555 pax).

I'm afraid that's not true. NAV20 propagated the incorrect myth that an increase in MTOW corresponds with a decrease in payload. Ofcourse, it does not. In other words, he tried to redefine Newton's Laws.

I don't think it's a secret that the A380 has gained weight to keep on the payload/range schedule. It definitely has. But that doesn't mean that the A380 won't meet its performance guarantees. It also doesn't mean that it will be a fantastic airplane.

In the end, airlines will vote with their feet.

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 15):
Does Airbus have a history of increasing MTOW without an increase in range/payload performance in any other programs?

Sure. On just about every program. The one exception appears to be the A330.

Quoting Abba (Reply 21):
However Airbus might pay SQ compensation for late arrival of the A380 by giving them a very sweet deal on the 350 and as such makes this situation somewhat unique.

SQ is an aggressive customer. They aren't necessarily going to be wooed by a "sweet deal". What they want is an airplane that performs as advertised and completes its missions as advertised. Furthermore, it isn't in an OEM's interest to have to come up with "sweet deals" to recover customer dissatisfaction. It all costs money.

 airplane QFA001
 
A342
Posts: 4017
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 11:05 pm

RE: SQ Told: A380 Better Than Promised

Sun Nov 13, 2005 5:41 am

Quoting Amy (Reply 36):
That's maximum range of the arcraft but not at MTOW... I believe (could be wrong)

You are. It´s at MTOW, but without cargo, just pax+baggage.
Full payload range is also at MTOW, but also with the maximum amount of additional cargo possible.

[Edited 2005-11-12 21:42:14]
 
BoomBoom
Posts: 2459
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 2:26 am

RE: SQ Told: A380 Better Than Promised

Sun Nov 13, 2005 5:44 am

Quoting Manni (Reply 28):
-record profit margins, roughly 11,5% (Airbus)

the competition

-a profit margin roughly 7,5% (Boeing)

When ever I see this I wonder: Are EU and US accounting standards the same? Is this an apples to apples comparison?
 
N79969
Posts: 6605
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2002 1:43 am

RE: SQ Told: A380 Better Than Promised

Sun Nov 13, 2005 5:55 am

That's an awfully vague statement. If Airbus gave a few concrete numbers that would clarify what they were talking about, that would be helpful.
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: SQ Told: A380 Better Than Promised

Sun Nov 13, 2005 6:02 am

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 5):
My point is first, Airbus doesn't have a lot of credibility with SQ right now and secondly, what would you expect them to say?

My guess is that Airbus has provided Singapore the numbers, and hence Singapore has made the statement.

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 8):
I think what Airbus needs to do is demonstrate it can fly LAX-HKG non-stop year-round at standard MTOW for the A380-800.

LAX-HKG is not very far...

Quoting United Airline (Reply 13):
I think Boeing has stated that the B 787-10 is not a priority since the B 777-200ER is doing very well.

Orders for the 777-200ER have been practically nonexistent for years.

N
 
steve6666
Posts: 491
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 1:58 am

RE: SQ Told: A380 Better Than Promised

Sun Nov 13, 2005 6:02 am

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 42):
Are EU and US accounting standards the same? Is this an apples to apples comparison?

No, there are substantial and significant differences between US Generally Accepted Accounting Principles (GAAP) and whatever GAAP (probably International Financial Reporting Standards) Airbus reports under. Unfortunately, that is a very specialised and technical area of accounting, and to do the reconciliation between the two GAAPs would be extraordinarily difficult. As a general comment, it is accepted that profitability is more volatile under IFRS.
 
planemanofnz
Posts: 4384
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 4:46 pm

RE: SQ Told: A380 Better Than Promised

Sun Nov 13, 2005 6:16 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 44):
Orders for the 777-200ER have been practically nonexistent for years.

What about NZ, OS, TG and the other many carriers who have ordered the 772ER in the past 2 years?
 
N79969
Posts: 6605
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2002 1:43 am

RE: SQ Told: A380 Better Than Promised

Sun Nov 13, 2005 6:25 am

Quoting Planemanofnz (Reply 46):
What about NZ, OS, TG and the other many carriers who have ordered the 772ER in the past 2 years?

Continental added on as well. The 772ER is alive and kicking relative to the moribund competitor.

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 44):
Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 5):
My point is first, Airbus doesn't have a lot of credibility with SQ right now and secondly, what would you expect them to say?

My guess is that Airbus has provided Singapore the numbers, and hence Singapore has made the statement.

Not a logical guess considering the text provided in the starter and the situation between Airbus and the airline.

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 42):
When ever I see this I wonder: Are EU and US accounting standards the same? Is this an apples to apples comparison?

Like Steve6666 says, they can be radically different. Ordinarily the numbers will come out different when the rules are changed. However in one dramatic example, when Daimler applied US-GAAP standards in order to list shares in the US, their financial results showed a loss while the German rules showed a profit.
 
User avatar
PM
Posts: 5459
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 5:05 pm

RE: SQ Told: A380 Better Than Promised

Sun Nov 13, 2005 6:41 am

Quoting Planemanofnz (Reply 46):
What about NZ, OS, TG and the other many carriers who have ordered the 772ER in the past 2 years?

For the record...

2005 (so far) : 8 orders (Austrian, TAAG, ILFC, Continental and unidentified)
2004 : 12 orders (Air New Zealand, Thai and KLM)
2003 : 9 order (Korean)
2002 : 15 orders (Vietnam, Kenya, KLM, PIA, Korean)
2001 : 23 orders (AA, ANA, SIA, JAL, El Al, AF)

So that's 67 orders over five years for 18 customers. That's a little over one plane a month. And, for what it's worth...

RR : 30 (45%)
GE : 19 (28%)
PW : 16 (24%)
?? : 2 (3%)
 
MarshalN
Posts: 1474
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2005 9:39 am

RE: SQ Told: A380 Better Than Promised

Sun Nov 13, 2005 6:52 am

Quoting JetMaster (Reply 18):
Who tells you that CX is the one and only representative airline for judging the A380? There might have been a number of reasons for picking second hand B747s not related to the A380 at all.

I agree -- the A380 isn't available for a few more years if CX were to place an order now, but used 744s are usable right here, right now.

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 44):
LAX-HKG is not very far...

14 hours in the air... is not very close.

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