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ikramerica
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RE: Boeing Officially Launches 747-8 Family

Wed Nov 16, 2005 12:28 pm

Quoting Aither (Reply 184):
While the 747... look at that : the easter island ??! no way. I'm sure we will see lots of 747 on these high density routes.

well, it's important for diversions, and with the ETOPS changing to include all jet types for diversion purposes, the 747 still has that edge.

but it is funny to see this silly map, because it is based on airports that are A380 ready now, not by EIS.

Then again, it isn't totally pointless, because it shows the airports that still must spend MONEY to make the A380 fit, while they 748 fits already. Not totally lost on some carriers who may be required to pay increased landing fees on the A380...

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 190):
I had read $1.5 billion; I wish I could find the article.

Yeah, I had heard that somewhere too, which is why I say the cost is about 1/10th of the A380, so breakeven is much lower.

If you believe it's 250 on the A380, then that translates to 25 on the 748...  Wink
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
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sunrisevalley
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RE: Boeing Officially Launches 747-8 Family

Wed Nov 16, 2005 12:49 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 64):
The A380 is far better than just 8% compared to the 744. Something is wrong here, Boeing confuses efficiency numbers again.

Thorben and others, go back to the thread "Boeing nears 747adv launch decision" and read some of Widebodyphotogs postings. I will quote from two of them.
In one posting in a hypothetical 6000nm mission, the A380-800 used 413848# of fuel for a payload of 137126#. The 747-8 used 324420# for a payload of 112000#.You do the arithmetic . By my figuring the 747-8 had about a 3.5% advantage.
A second quote..

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 66):
For me the shame for Airbus is, even if it could fit a much more eficient engine to the A388, the stuctural weight and wing size are already there, limiting the potential benefits.


Exactly right. The one thing Airbus can not get around is that A380 has the highest empty weight per passenger of any twin isle commercial aircraft. Even if the final OEW is on target the structural efficiency (Payload/Empty Weight) will be the lowest of any twin isle aircraft currently in production. If the next generation turbofans are adapted to the A380 airframe the structural massiveness of the airplane is a very high hurdle to overcome to realize significant efficiency gains. This is a vulnerability of the A380 and leaves the door wide open for lower capacity aircraft that offer even small gains in specific efficiencies.
 
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zeke
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RE: Boeing Officially Launches 747-8 Family

Wed Nov 16, 2005 1:37 pm

Quoting SunriseValley (Reply 201):
In one posting in a hypothetical 6000nm mission, the A380-800 used 413848# of fuel for a payload of 137126#. The 747-8 used 324420# for a payload of 112000#.You do the arithmetic . By my figuring the 747-8 had about a 3.5% advantage.

In another thread I have discussed the figures he has used in detail, the SFC is not a SFC, it is a TSFC which bears little relevance to the actual.

Also his numbers show that a 744er burns 36.7 t more fuel to carry just 2.1 t more payload than a 346.

Whilst he has done some fantastic work, I have disagreed with him on a few performance numbers.

It appears he runs flight plans in a flight planning system on hypothetical flights, and then derives the numbers for his charts from that. Errors do creep in as the flight planning systems invariable interpolate data provided by that manufactures, then he is once again interpolating the results of the system generated flight plan.

To quote Widebodyphotogs "I see the point of contention here. I used block-hour fuel burn in the specification table. Apologies if I misrepresented what they were in some way. That value does not represent fuel burn at any segment of the flight, rather total fuel burn/operating time for the indicated flight distance.". Hence his cruise fuel flows, thrust and TSFC are not accurate.

I have also noticed in his 747 plan a cruise at FL348, whist that may give the optimum FL for the 744 at that weight, its not a realistic real world level one can plan for.

He does some fantastic work, just bear in mind he is providing the data on his time, don’t expect it to be 100% accurate. I think as people look at it, the quality of the data will improve.

Quoting SunriseValley (Reply 201):
Exactly right. The one thing Airbus can not get around is that A380 has the highest empty weight per passenger of any twin isle commercial aircraft.

Are you working on 850, 580, 550, or 470 passengers ? Did you include past twin isle airliners in your statement, did you include Russian aircraft ?

Suggest you look figures 3 & 20 in http://www.boeing.com/assocproducts/aircompat/industrydocs/ctol.pdf
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
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Stitch
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RE: Boeing Officially Launches 747-8 Family

Wed Nov 16, 2005 1:39 pm

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 193):
There's too much numbercrunching by armchair CEOs done here. Southwest have consistently shown that you don't need to tailor seats to demand.

WN also relies on quick turns and short-hops, which isn't possible with intercontinental travel.

Quote:
The 773ER and A359 will help put a large hole in the 748 market.

We shall see. They seem to have definitely hurt the 744, but the 748I offers better CASM then all three (so the pundits say). For some current 747 operators, that might be the factor that tips them to choose the 748I.

Quote:
This is a huge gamble by Boeing, and with the engine exclusivity they have immediately shot themselves in the foot. Secondly the frame difference between the passenger and cargo version will jack up development costs.

Okay, I get that you despise GE. Evidently, this sentiment is not shared by airlines who use RR or PW engines yet have decided to buy the GE-engined 773ER/772LR and those who use PW and GE engines who have chosen the RR-engined A345/A346.

Quote:
Seems like Baseler and his Baseless figures will come up wrong. Betting the farm on a single engine choice will cost them dearly.

They're close to "break-even" on the 748 in terms of orders (if SQ's rumored 15 748F order is for real), and we're two days into the program's launch. So I guess "cost them dearly" means they will only make a lot of money, and not a ridiculous amount.

And the 773ER and 772LR/772F are landing orders, so those programs I guess will just be "real profitable" as well, and not "insanely profitable".

The A345 looks dead, but the A346 has a good future, so Airbus must be crying into their drinks about only being able to make "good money" because they only offer RR powerplants.
 
787
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RE: Boeing Officially Launches 747-8 Family

Wed Nov 16, 2005 2:55 pm

Boeing 67.00 up +0.77 (+1.16%)

Good companies always survive competition. Another winner for Boeing.
787 Italia - Io, il comandante dell'aria
 
PlaneDane
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RE: Boeing Officially Launches 747-8 Family

Wed Nov 16, 2005 3:08 pm

Quoting RedChili (Reply 186):
Quoting Thorben (Reply 64):
As an aviation enthusiast I'm glad to see this plane, but from the business point of view, Boeing has lost the last little bit of credibility it had.

I think you're a little bit too harsh on Boeing here, but it's quite obvious that they've had a change of heart. They've realized that there is room for two VLAs.

Actually, there's been no change of heart or lost credibility. The 748I will still come up short on seating capacity to qualify for the VLA category.

So, there remains only one VLA on the market, the still larger A380.
 
scarebus03
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RE: Boeing Officially Launches 747-8 Family

Wed Nov 16, 2005 6:18 pm

Wahey!

Congrats to Boeing! I have worked for many years on 747's and truly believe they are the best airliners ever built. I am beginning to think Boeing have got the market more correct than Airbus with the 380, time will tell. The -800 designation is interesting but I think it is to coincide with the 737-800 as everytime I hear Boeing newgen I associate it with the 737-800 and now 747-800 as well.

Regards

SB03
No faults found......................
 
A342
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RE: Boeing Officially Launches 747-8 Family

Wed Nov 16, 2005 9:40 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 180):
Sorry, but YOU didn't bother to look closely as the freighter figures are under 747-8 in the technical specs of the 747 page, and then said Boeing was silent about the range. Why not just ask: "Does anyone know the range?" next time instead of implying a negative. If you imply a negative and put it in an otherwise negative post, you don't tend to get the benefit of the doubt with people.

Again, pronounciation was "when I had a look...". I could not find it, maybe you did later. And why is my whole post negative ? Could you explain please ? And btw, MY credibilíty is MY issue, NOT YOURS. Please don´t mix into that.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
NumberTwelve
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RE: Boeing Officially Launches 747-8 Family

Wed Nov 16, 2005 9:51 pm

Wow, this painted plane looks great - hopefully it will look so in real.
We saw how the 787 changed already and plane isn't in production yet.
Anyway: great that there will be more fuel efficient 747's in the future.
The 747-100 to 747-400 are dying dinosaurs.

Great that there is competition in plane manufacturer industry, otherwise we would have had waited for another 30 years for a modernisation.
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liedetectors
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RE: Boeing Officially Launches 747-8 Family

Thu Nov 17, 2005 3:13 am

I believe the information about the project's launch was provided by me in August.
RE: Is The 747ADV Still Going? (by Liedetectors Aug 12 2005 in Civil Aviation)
If it was said by us, then it must be true.
 
astuteman
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RE: Boeing Officially Launches 747-8 Family

Thu Nov 17, 2005 4:35 am

Quoting Singaporegirl (Reply 178):
yes that's the rumour that's been floating around here. so for pax a/c the a380s will be our new flagship, and the b748s would be for sia cargo.

Sounds like a win-win, doesn't it.

SIA must be made of money to want to invest in the "much higher CASM" for the pax planes  Wink
 
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sunrisevalley
Posts: 5392
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RE: Boeing Officially Launches 747-8 Family

Thu Nov 17, 2005 5:19 am

Quoting Zeke (Reply 202):
Quoting SunriseValley (Reply 201):
Exactly right. The one thing Airbus can not get around is that A380 has the highest empty weight per passenger of any twin isle commercial aircraft.

Are you working on 850, 580, 550, or 470 passengers ? Did you include past twin isle airliners in your statement, did you include Russian aircraft ?

To set the record straight; this was not my statement, it was a quote from a posting by Widebodyphotog.
 
BG777300ER
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RE: Boeing Officially Launches 747-8 Family

Thu Nov 17, 2005 8:39 am

Quoting Scarebus03 (Reply 206):
The -800 designation is interesting but I think it is to coincide with the 737-800 as everytime I hear Boeing newgen I associate it with the 737-800 and now 747-800 as well.

Wow, did you not read the web site or my previous post. It is because it has so much in common with the 787 (emphasis on the 8 in 7 8 7). I'm not trying to be disrespectful or mean but it's annoying and stupid how many times people are asking this. There's even a WHOLE thread about why its 748 and not 797 or 745, READ THE WEB SITE that's why! People, give it a rest...it's just a freakin name.

[Edited 2005-11-17 00:41:56]

[Edited 2005-11-17 00:44:01]
 
ozglobal
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RE: Boeing Officially Launches 747-8 Family

Thu Nov 17, 2005 10:58 am

I've nothing against the introduction of the 747-800 and will happily fly it. 747 is a great aircraft. The passenger capacity of 800 in standard config will be equal to QF's 474 seats as announced for their A380, which begs the question... and they see a market for 900 of these very large capacity passenger jets.

But I'm not even going to listen to the pathetic spin Boeing is going to have to come up with to explain their back-flip in producing the sort of plane they spent five years arguing was irrelevenat in high fequency, point to point market.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
RedChili
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RE: Boeing Officially Launches 747-8 Family

Thu Nov 17, 2005 3:53 pm

Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 205):
Actually, there's been no change of heart or lost credibility. The 748I will still come up short on seating capacity to qualify for the VLA category.

So, there remains only one VLA on the market, the still larger A380.

I depends upon what your opinion is of a VLA. Boeing claims that the 747 is a VLA. "Very large airplanes, 747-size and greater, will account for only a little over three percent of airplane deliveries in the next two decades." Quote from http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2005/q2/nr_050608g.html
Top 10 airplanes: B737, T154, B747, IL96, T134, IL62, A320, MD80, B757, DC10
 
widebodyphotog
Posts: 885
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RE: Boeing Officially Launches 747-8 Family

Thu Nov 17, 2005 11:22 pm

Quoting SunriseValley (Reply 201):
Exactly right. The one thing Airbus can not get around is that A380 has the highest empty weight per passenger of any twin isle commercial aircraft. Even if the final OEW is on target the structural efficiency (Payload/Empty Weight) will be the lowest of any twin isle aircraft currently in production. If the next generation turbofans are adapted to the A380 airframe the structural massiveness of the airplane is a very high hurdle to overcome to realize significant efficiency gains. This is a vulnerability of the A380 and leaves the door wide open for lower capacity aircraft that offer even small gains in specific efficiencies.



Quoting Zeke (Reply 202):
Are you working on 850, 580, 550, or 470 passengers ? Did you include past twin isle airliners in your statement, did you include Russian aircraft ?

They were my remarks and I will stand by them, extend and clarify...

With the exception of the A340-500 and A340-200 the A380 has the highest specific weight of any Airbus or Boeing twin isle aircraft currently in production. A380 is an extraordinarily heavy aircraft in many respects.

Weight data for Boeing and Airbus heavy aircraft:

Boeing and Airbus Heavy Aircraft Weight Data


Passenger specific weight based on design three class passenger arrangement unless only a two class arrangement is given for selected aircraft. For freighter aircraft the key figure to remark is payload/OEW where the higher percentage indicates the higher qualitative value. Red type indicates the highest quantitative value in category and not necessarily the best qualitative figure.


747-8 And A380-800 Data



-widebodyphotog
If you know what's really going on then you'll know what to do
 
F14D4ever
Posts: 306
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RE: Boeing Officially Launches 747-8 Family

Fri Nov 18, 2005 1:24 am

Quoting Widebodyphotog (Reply 215):


747-8 And A380-800 Data

Thanks for yet another very nice tabulation ... but there's an error in your conversion of 747-8 fuselage length and cabin width from metric to English units.

[Edited 2005-11-17 17:38:49]
"He is risen, as He said."
 
trex8
Posts: 5612
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RE: Boeing Officially Launches 747-8 Family

Fri Nov 18, 2005 11:54 am

Quoting 787 (Reply 204):
Boeing 67.00 up +0.77 (+1.16%)

great they are finally back to the level they were at in 2000!
 
Dougloid
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RE: Boeing Officially Launches 747-8 Family

Fri Nov 18, 2005 12:31 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 64):
As an aviation enthusiast I'm glad to see this plane, but from the business point of view, Boeing has lost the last little bit of credibility it had.

Not to rain on your parade but what you're feeling is your own remorse because you took everyone's propaganda literally-including that emanating from the aptly named Windy City.

From the business point of view launching the 748 makes perfect sense and it shows that Boeing is not bound to its ideology about point to point, if it means making some airplanes that people want and snagging some orders off of the competition. It's called giving the customer what they want if they've got the money to pay for it. And it in no way detracts from the essential differences about where the market is headed.

Giving the customer what they want is a GOOD business model and maybe a philosophical difference that some folks would do well to study, rather than telling the customer what it needs-the Chinese have learned it well.

What it does indicate at this point is that there's a market for large cargo aircraft that can be front loaded expeditiously, a segment of the cargo market that Airbus surrendered without a fight, forgetting that it's a lot easier to load something in a straight line than making right angle turns in the process. If you can carry large packages you can always carry small ones but it doesn't work the other way round.

What it MAY show if passenger orders turn up (not a given at this point) is that there are enough operators on the lower end of the capacity scale to siphon off some of that money Noel and John were counting on. That's in the "wait and see" column.

We've got a saying here-don't count your chickens before they hatch. And the other American maxim that is worth considering is that the opera ain't over til the fat lady sings.

And my favorite-often attributed to the Texas Rangers: A little man will whup a big man every time if the little man is in the right and keeps on a comin.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn

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