Read about it here.


http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/051116/cgw064.html?.v=17

Interesting... I get the impression that more and more people apply for jobs online today. Less and less paper applications...

Flight attendants take note. As with pilots, there are a lot of people who'd like your jobs. Quit complaining about the pay cuts.

Quoting BayAreaPilot (Reply 2): Flight attendants take note. As with pilots, there are a lot of people who'd like your jobs. Quit complaining about the pay cuts.

When you are forced to live below the poverty line, you can complain

most pilots and FA's make more than the rampers!!!

Also reflected here:

http://www.united.com/page/article/0,6722,51394,00.html

Quoting BayAreaPilot (Reply 2): Flight attendants take note. As with pilots, there are a lot of people who'd like your jobs. Quit complaining about the pay cuts.

I don't think this means that more and more people want to be flight attendants. Flight attendants take note? Give me a break. This is simply a reflection on how awful the US economy and job market are, and how desperate the work force is. The attitude that everyone should take a pay cut because there is a line at the door of people who will do your job for less money is ridiculous, and is contributing to the problem. There will always be workers who are willing to work for less, so where does it end? Should people work for free if they have a REALLY desirable job? More and more people are being forced to take jobs that can barely cover the cost of living, if that, just to compete with these so-called workers who will work for pennies on the dollar. The airline industry is simply one example of how terrible things have gotten in the past 5 years.

The excuse that employees need to sacrifice to "save the company" is also a tired one on this forum. I'm glad so many of you can afford to give up your livelihood for the sake of greedy corporate heads, but I think that the executives should be the first to be asked for a few "sacrifices" before an entire work force has to. It shouldn't be up to the hard working employees to give back their salaries just so they can keep their job.

And please spare me the other tired argument "well what do the employees expect? If they continue their greed there will be no company left to work for." I understand that during a down-turn everyone will feel the effects, but it is no longer "all hands on deck" when things are bad. Employees are being asked to give back more and more and work harder, while CEO's take bonuses and stock options. So please stop contributing to the problem with this kind of attitude, because soon enough it will come home to all of us who have a career more desirable than field labor.

Just my $.02

well i hope they call me lol.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 3): When you are forced to live below the poverty line, you can complain

Nobody forces you, if you don't like it you can choose to get another job.

Quoting HS748 (Reply 7): Nobody forces you, if you don't like it you can choose to get another job.

Thank you for solving the global problems of poverty and unemployment with your remark.  

United is hiring some of these flight attendants to replace others they previously furloughed who DID choose to get other jobs. Even so, please don't suggest that the rest who still do enjoy their job go find another line of work simply because they say something when their pay is taken away.

Quoting ASAFA (Reply 5): Should people work for free if they have a REALLY desirable job?

.....and that's the arguement that pilots have dealt with for years. There are people out there that will virtually fly for free. You hear people say all the time "I'd be willing to do this job even if they weren't paying me". Then there's the debacle of old TAB Express, where people PAID to fly for an "airline". The attitude is prevalent enough to push commuter and many regional pilots' wages way, way down. Junior FOs at commuters and regionals also live below the poverty line.

So believe it or not, that's not such a crazy statement. There are people out there that really would be practically willing to do that. It's unfortunate for everyone that's trying to live on that income.

I am tired of FAs complaining about their pay rates.

The FA position was never originally meant to be a career. It was a job where young ladies (originally RNs) could spend a few years earn enough money to live on as a single, and see the world before settling down with a family or finding a more responsible job. It was more of a McDonalds type of job with the main reason for taking it being the NRSA perks and the chance to have fun and meet good marriage prospects (such as pilots and other professionals).

Some airlines still treat the position this way (such as SQ, where the FAs are on a 5 year personal contract).

The amount of training required for an FA in terms of hours is not much different than a McDs. If you want professional pay, choose a job that requires a professional education, not a week in a classroom.

Nobody (in their right mind) expects the employees at McDs to make $40K/year, unless they want to pay $12 for their Big Mac. McDs is an entry level job for the young to learn how to work. FA is an entry level job on a slightly higher level (One week of classroom training verses one week of OTJ training).

Just because you like working at a McDs and enjoy the free Big Macs does not mean you should work there for the rest of your career. Grow up and move on.

Sorry to the FAs that I have offended, but it is the truth. The FA position is a fun job for the young, and should not a be career choice.

Now go ahead and flame me.

I'd love to know how many Independence Air FAs applied with United.

Leaves me wondering how much Delta would have to offer in the marketplace to get 20000 applications for pilot jobs. 50K?

Quoting CALMSP (Reply 4): most pilots and FA's make more than the rampers!!!

As they should....

pilots spend nearly $100 thousand and have demanding requirements to get to that stage, why should joe blow make more or as much as pilots for throwing bags, you dont need an education to do that.

Wow, this turned into a pay bitch fest real quickly.


Stay on topic!!

Quoting ASAFA (Reply 5): This is simply a reflection on how awful the US economy and job market are, and how desperate the work force is.

I don't fully agree with your statement. The US job market is evolving, but it isn't necessarily awful. The European job market is far worse. For educated individuals, there are jobs available in this country. The people hurting the worst are the uneducated, went to college and earned useless degrees or those that may have dropped out of college to pursue a technical career during the 90s for a company that no longer needs them. Yes the days of a safe secure job are long gone especially for people without a strong education background. People move around and corporations can no longer afford to support a person and their family for an entire lifetime in exchange for 25 or 30 years of work. Educated professionals are still in demand. Jobs for hardworking people are still in demand. But overall the number of quality long term jobs for non college educated people is where there is strain.

The reason for such high demand for flight attendant positions is that it is a much more enjoyable career than that of an office clerk. A receptionist or office assistant gets paid about the same amount as a flight attendant, but which job would you choose? If you want to work hard and will do anything, then there are jobs available in the US economy. If you don't want a quality college education with a challenging major, then you either have to have an enjoyable job at a horrible salary, or a horrible job at a mediocre salary. That is the way that the job market is. At least you can get a job in the United States because in some areas of the world, that is not an option.

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 10): FA is an entry level job on a slightly higher level (One week of classroom training verses one week of OTJ training).

I may not have gone through the thousands of dollars and hours in training God's Gift To Humanity (err...Pilots) did to get to where they are on the aircraft I also work on, but I certainly did NOT go through a week of "McDonald's" training.

Show me a McDonald's that has a staff capable of doing my job, and doing it well. Lets take the McDonald's in Concourse C at ORD, for example. I would walk off any airplane I walked on and saw one of them was my fellow flight attendant that day.

Its not quite the same thing. It has turned into a respectable career over time whether you like it or not.

And for the record, I love waking up and going to work in the morning, regardless of whether I'm living below the poverty line or not. I knew coming into this that the job made the money worth it, not the other way around.

And as a Flight Attendant, I'm tired of hearing the Pilot's b*tch about their pay just as much as some of my fellow flight attendant's do. The argument works both ways. You all decided to spend that much money to do what you do. You knew coming into it what the industry was like. And the airline you work for, you chose to work there. So until your group of cronies stops complaining, why should mine?

-Tony

PS - How many of those 16k applicants are already Flight Attendants with other airlines? Northwest, Delta come to mind on the major side, along with my fellow F/A's at the regionals...

[Edited 2005-11-17 18:08:52]

[Edited 2005-11-17 18:09:14]

For the ignorant on here.


-Flight Attendant training at United Airlines is 7 Weeks of unpaid training.
-Training at McDonald's is a week or more and paid.
-McDonald's managers and above can and do make more than $40,000 per year. A friend of mine started at 16. Stayed until 46. She took her bonuses in stock and is now worth more than 1 million and just finished nursing school.
-The Flight Attendant job has changed over the years to include many things. Too bad your brain has not caught up as well.

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos171.htm

Please click on the link and get educated about the job.

Safe Flying  

PS. Why should anyone flame you? You typed your ignorance out in more than adequate words.

To the starter of this post. United Airlines is hiring Flight Attendants. They suspended taking resumes.

[Edited 2005-11-17 18:12:41]

[Edited 2005-11-17 18:13:01]

Quoting Etops1 (Reply 18):

He has no clue. Don't let him get into your mind. Thank God he was not on the American Airlines Flight with Richard Reid. He probibly would have tried to get the flight attendants to get him another drink instead of being the hero of the day. People that post such things on this web site don't realize, you really do type out your lack of knowledge. You are only harming yourself in the long run.

Safe Flying  

Quoting BayAreaPilot (Reply 2): Flight attendants take note. As with pilots, there are a lot of people who'd like your jobs. Quit complaining about the pay cuts.

BayAreaPilot - Here's a suggestion. Why don't you change your user name to "SCABWANNABE" and be done with it. Just remember, there are probably people in line to take your toilet cleaning job at Walmart too, so I'd pipe down if I were you.

HAHAHA, you guys (BayAreaPilot and DLPMMM) are soooooo deserving of the comments posted on this forum!   

Allow me to share my thoughts:

Quoting BayAreaPilot (Reply 2): Flight attendants take note. As with pilots, there are a lot of people who'd like your jobs. Quit complaining about the pay cuts.

Everyone is allowed to complain, that's protected under our "Freedom of Speech" right. Speaking objectively though, I think that F/As do have the right to complain because the airlines are taking advantage of them. They ought to say something because soon, they'll be working for free. Sure, you'll bring up the lack of education and how the payrate should be commensurated accordingly, but that doesn't mean that they should accept a drop in salary and being taken for granted. As a pilot, you surely understand, otherwise, why would Delta pilots threaten to go on strike????

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 10): I am tired of FAs complaining about their pay rates.

Your profession is a little more difficult to discern, but whatever you do, I'm sure you wouldn't want to have your salary cut and your pension plan go down the tube. You may not be able to relate because you're not a FA and you wouldn't be able to realize the scope of the impact. Airlines often turn to their personnel in order to cut down costs, meanwhile, CEOs/Execs still get paid the big bucks, don't you see a slight flaw in the system? I do agree, however, that in order for the airline to survive and benefit all, some cuts will need to be made, but not in one single area, everywhere! I just think that laying off and/or reducing benefits should be an answer of last resort.

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 10): The amount of training required for an FA in terms of hours is not much different than a McDs. If you want professional pay, choose a job that requires a professional education, not a week in a classroom.

That is quite ignorant. Flight attendants have to go through hours of training, getting appropriate certifications, etc... in order to even qualify for the scarce open positions (as proven by UAL's recent FA hiring response rate). Although I am not looking down on fast food employees, I am sure that flight attendants are required to undergo more streneous pre-requisites. It really doesn't take hours to learn how to flip burgers, unless you were talking about yourself, which is an entire other thread altogether  

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 10): Grow up and move on.

So in conclusion, you may need to take your own advice and take a look in the mirror before criticizing other people. I'm sure you won't keep silent the next time you endure a pay cut.

I agree with everything you said ASAFA your on my respected members list:


The CEO's and board members are the direct cause of failure in US airline industry. The boards simply refuse to get rid of CEO's because they're getting their fair share regardless. The Pilots and FA's do not come up with the business strategies they simply execute them, just like a team owner, GM and head coach. So what happens when the team underperforms or looses money? Majority of the time it's the GM or coach in the airline industry its the CEO, CFO, COO, Presdients and Vice Presidents. Lets be real here, it's pure BS to say the pilots or FA's are to blame when they're simply executing the business model. And guess what?!!? if your not making money your business models is a failure not the work of the pilots of FA's so NO THEY SHOULDN'T TAKE A PAY CUT due to INCOMPETENCE of those making the vital decisions!!!!!!!!

So if Microsoft or Apple were to suddenly start losing money should the programmers and tehcnicians take a pay cut?!! Or should the people in charge of creating the structure, policies and models be responsible? I think you know my answer!!!

Quoting ASAFA (Reply 8): Thank you for solving the global problems of poverty and unemployment with your remark

He was talking about flight attendants - what does that have to do with world poverty?

Quoting HS748 (Reply 22): He was talking about flight attendants - what does that have to do with world poverty?

It was meant to be sarcastic. - hence the  

I don't remember seeing the word flight attendants in the remark...

Quoting HS748 (Reply 7): Nobody forces you, if you don't like it you can choose to get another job.

...but in a perfect world sure, anyone who is under-paid or unhappy with their job could simply wave a magic wand and suddenly they would be paid generously and working a job that they love. Too bad it doesn't work that way. Saying go get a new job to someone who has worked for a company (such as United) for 35 years because they are now paid 25% less is not only insulting but also quite unrealistic. Why shouldn't they complain? Do you think when the company becomes profitable again that they will get that 25% back? Keep dreaming. The profits go right into the pockets of the executives and the employees are thrown their usual 3% cost of living increase.

[Edited 2005-11-17 22:12:37]

i believe its two sides to the coin

i dont understand why some people are so anti f/a right now. some of their lively hoods are being threatend with some airlines! they have a right to complain! if you LOVE WHAT YOU DO in any job you would complain!


BUT in some cases if there is no hope in sight, then yes just walk away! its hard to walk away from a job you love doing every day! and everyone who has these "grand jobs" arent happy.

Quoting S5FA170 (Reply 16): Its not quite the same thing. It has turned into a respectable career over time whether you like it or not.

Between 3 and 8 weeks to be certified is not exactly a Master's degree (or even an Associates for that matter). My point was that the pay rate and benefits are commensurate with the skill sets involved and the market demand. I would not call it a career, I would call it a job.

Quoting S5FA170 (Reply 16): Show me a McDonald's that has a staff capable of doing my job, and doing it well.

I would wager that between 10% to 50% of McD's employees (depending on the location) could pass the training course and certification exams.

Quoting S5FA170 (Reply 16): And as a Flight Attendant, I'm tired of hearing the Pilot's b*tch about their pay just as much as some of my fellow flight attendant's do. The argument works both ways. You all decided to spend that much money to do what you do.

I agree with you completely on this. I'm not a pilot. I would be glad to have you as an FA on my flight.

This was not meant as a slam against FAs but rather against people entering into the position with unrealistic expectations of a sufficient wage to raise family, own a home... on a FA's wages. The available labor supply is too large given the low barriers to entry (7 weeks of school) and benefits (NRSAs) even with the low pay. You have made a decision that it is a long term lifestyle that you like, and are willing to make the financial sacrafice, so that is fine.

You actually seem to have a very good attitude about it and a healthy outlook on life.

Quoting FlyGuyClt (Reply 17): -McDonald's managers and above can and do make more than $40,000 per year. A friend of mine started at 16. Stayed until 46. She took her bonuses in stock and is now worth more than 1 million and just finished nursing school

Thank you for proving my point. If you stay as a FA for 30 years, you my get bumped up during that time and get bumped up to management in charge of FA training and make more than $40,000/year. And the percentages of FAs who do this will be about the same as those staying at McDs for 30 years and doing this.

Quoting FlyGuyClt (Reply 17): Please click on the link and get educated about the job

It's about what I thought except I think the pay rates are a bit off in your link. The rates were unrealisticlly high before (as your 2002 link exemplifies) and now the pay rates are much lower. This is what happens when supply exceed demand.

Quoting B777A340Fan (Reply 20): That is quite ignorant. Flight attendants have to go through hours of training, getting appropriate certifications, etc... in order to even qualify for the scarce open positions (as proven by UAL's recent FA hiring response rate). Although I am not looking down on fast food employees, I am sure that flight attendants are required to undergo more streneous pre-requisites. It really doesn't take hours to learn how to flip burgers, unless you were talking about yourself, which is an entire other thread altogether

While the personal insult was uncalled for, your post proves my point. The difference in training is just a matter of weeks which is not a large barrier to entry and not that much longer than learning to flip burgers, run a fry-o-lator, work a cash register, clean a grease trap, learn the prep work....

Quoting FlyGuyClt (Reply 17): PS. Why should anyone flame you? You typed your ignorance out in more than adequate words.

I don't think there was anything ignorant about my response, just an honest look at the job and it's place in the industry. Sixteen thousand applications for jobs that have "unacceptable" pay proves me correct.

Quoting B777A340Fan (Reply 20): Your profession is a little more difficult to discern, but whatever you do, I'm sure you wouldn't want to have your salary cut and your pension plan go down the tube.

No one likes to have their pay rate cut, but the market is saying that the rate that was paid before was too much given the supply available. From what I know, all of the staff at DL (just to use them as an example) including management has taken significant cuts this year. As far as the pension plan going down the tubes, the defined benefit plans are being eliminated and replaced by defined contribution plans, just as they are in pretty much all industries in the USA. Not a single FA has lost their already earned defined benefits to my knowledge, as the even the terminated plans of the Chapter 11 carriers will pay out 100% of benefits less than $50,000 per year.

Quoting B777A340Fan (Reply 20): So in conclusion, you may need to take your own advice and take a look in the mirror before criticizing other people. I'm sure you won't keep silent the next time you endure a pay cut.

I was not meaning to criticize anybody, but to point out that being an FA was not the best career choice for most people, and in the past was a position geared toward young people looking to "see the world".

If I have to take a pay cut, I will do it silently. If I think I can do better elsewhere, I will walk away silently. Life is too short for anything else.

Quoting FlyGuyClt (Reply 17): To the starter of this post. United Airlines is hiring Flight Attendants. They suspended taking resumes.

The quote was taken from Yahoo airline news

Quoting Gritzngravee (Reply 21): Lets be real here, it's pure BS to say the pilots or FA's are to blame when they're simply executing the business model.

No it's not pure BS. While I agree that responsibility ultimately lies with the board and the CEO, union leadership and unionized work groups are to blame as well. Over the years they drove wages up by collective bargaining and the threat of strikes. The leadership at the airlines had to give in because airlines are capital intensive. In other words, if you stop the inflow of cash, they go broke in a few weeks.

Now, what's the going rate for a flight attendant job? United just proved that it is a very low salary.

In the ideal world the CEO and the board devise strategies and are 100% accountable. Part of the strategy is employee compensation, including base pay, benefits, performance bonus. If unions and unionized employees want no blame, then they should NEVER force wages up they way they have in the last few decades.

Quoting Gritzngravee (Reply 21): So if Microsoft or Apple were to suddenly start losing money should the programmers and tehcnicians take a pay cut?!!

If the leadership of the company thinks so, then definetely YES. This happens a lot more often than you think.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 3): When you are forced to live below the poverty line, you can complain

Unless your living under a totalitarian from of government then your not being forced to live under the poverty level. There are, as a matter of fact, millions of people out there that do live 'under the poverty level' and those folks cannot provide food for their families, put clothes on their backs, afford a place to live, no health care etc, etc! Unless you are destitute you are doing ok with your career CHOICE and most likely consider 'under the poverty level' as not being able to afford the nice things you want. This pity party about Flight Attendant pay and their constant complaining to put their group into a martyr status is just sad. If you have a place to live with food on your plate and clothes on your back you are doing good (Not to mention all the free travel your getting) and should be thankful for that! !

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 10): The FA position was never originally meant to be a career. It was a job where young ladies (originally RNs) could spend a few years earn enough money to live on as a single, and see the world before settling down with a family or finding a more responsible job.

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 10): The amount of training required for an FA in terms of hours is not much different than a McDs. If you want professional pay, choose a job that requires a professional education, not a week in a classroom.

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 25): Between 3 and 8 weeks to be certified is not exactly a Master's degree (or even an Associates for that matter). My point was that the pay rate and benefits are commensurate with the skill sets involved and the market demand. I would not call it a career, I would call it a job.

First of all, it never ceases to amaze me how cruel people can be on this forum. Let's say for instance that I believed pilots were nothing more than over paid bus drivers who push buttons (which I don't). It would be very arrogant of me to go on an aviation forum and make ignorant statements criticizing or under minding their profession. Don't you think?

Anyway, like it or not, the profession of Flight Attendant is now considered a career to some. If you don't like Flight Attendants who come on this forum complaining about pay cuts, that's cool. What's not cool is belittling the profession in the process. No Flight Attendant I know would claim that our job is rocket science. Once you make it through the interview process and the 5 week training program and the 6 month probation period, the job of Flight Attendant is pretty simple for the most part. Some see it as just a job and get out of the industry after a few years to pursue other interest and some fall in love with the profession and decide to make it a lifetime career. I don't believe that it's up to you to decide whether the profession of Flight Attendant is a job or a career. It's up to each individual Flight Attendant to decide that for his or herself.

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 25): I was not meaning to criticize anybody, but to point out that being an FA was not the best career choice for most people, and in the past was a position geared toward young people looking to "see the world".

You seem to mention a lot about the past and how the position of Flight Attendant was never meant to be a career. Well, we are not living in the past. The year is 2005 and airlines now hire people regardless of age, color, gender, sexual orientation, marital status, nationality, weight, religion etc.... Its called change. "Its a good thing" 

Steve

"most pilots and FA's make more than the rampers!!!"

"Flight attendants take note. As with pilots, there are a lot of people who'd like your jobs. Quit complaining about the pay cuts."


I fly a plane . . . I'm a professional. I have more lives in my hand in one day than doctors do in a year.

I should make more than a ramper!

I should make more than a FA!

I should live well above the poverty line!

And I don't know what you do, but unless you have 200+ lives in your hand everyday . . . I'm sure that I should make a hell of a lot more than you do!

Don't like that opinion . . . TOO DAMN BAD! Welcome to NYC, NY, USA!

PJ

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 27): Quoting Gritzngravee (Reply 21): So if Microsoft or Apple were to suddenly start losing money should the programmers and tehcnicians take a pay cut?!!

Absolutely, just ask all those programmers who worked for the dot bombs.

Quoting JFKLGANYC (Reply 30): And I don't know what you do, but unless you have 200+ lives in your hand everyday . . . I'm sure that I should make a hell of a lot more than you do! Don't like that opinion . . . TOO DAMN BAD! Welcome to NYC, NY, USA! PJ

   So according to your theory, train/metro/bus conductors should be making more, if not as much as you, TSA workers....the list goes on!

DLPMMM<------What a looser!
FlyGuyClt<-----Same as above!

"SteveSWA737" I respect your words your absolutely right. People can decide if they wanna work as an FA for 6 months or 30 years. I don't understand people like FlyGuyClt or DLPMMM. If I work for McD's for 25years its a career!!!!!! If I shine people shoes for 30 years its a career. Does not matter what you do for a living if you like it work it. You like to fly planes fly them, nobody should tell you "Oh its not a career" FA's get all the time "all they do is serve drinks" NONONO... Safety "proffecionals" its in the name...

Rage

Quoting JFKLGANYC (Reply 30): I fly a plane . . . I'm a professional. I have more lives in my hand in one day than doctors do in a year. I should make more than a ramper! I should make more than a FA! I should live well above the poverty line! And I don't know what you do, but unless you have 200+ lives in your hand everyday . . . I'm sure that I should make a hell of a lot more than you do!

So since I am a licensed A&P mechanic who went to school, got my degree, worked my way up from a commuter, and hold hundreds of lives in my hands everyday, including yours, should I make as much as you. When you get off the plane your work is done. Mine stays behind for the next load. So using your logic, I should be rich.

These pay arguments are dumb. We all knew how much to expect to make when we chose our jobs. Saying one should make as much as someone else is dumb. If you want to make that much, go do their jobs.

Quoting Rage323machine (Reply 33): DLPMMM<------What a looser! FlyGuyClt<-----Same as above! "SteveSWA737" I respect your words your absolutely right. People can decide if they wanna work as an FA for 6 months or 30 years. I don't understand people like FlyGuyClt or DLPMMM. If I work for McD's for 25years its a career!!!!!! If I shine people shoes for 30 years its a career. Does not matter what you do for a living if you like it work it. You like to fly planes fly them, nobody should tell you "Oh its not a career" FA's get all the time "all they do is serve drinks" NONONO... Safety "proffecionals" its in the name... Rage

I don't know what you are talking about in referance to me. I pointed out that McD's was a career with great financial potential. I then provided a link that the flight attendant job was a great career with many many responsibilities. So what are you talking about ?

Safe Flying  

Quoting B777A340Fan (Reply 32): So according to your theory, train/metro/bus conductors should be making more, if not as much as you, TSA workers....the list goes on!

No, no, no, no.    Train/bus conductors are responsible for taking a ticket, fluffing your pillow, and helping in an evac when necessary. Not that much responsibility. The TSA HAS NO RESPONSIBILITY WHATSOEVER!!! Your correlation is about as moronic as BayAreaPilots's statement at the beginning of the thread.

Also, in my area the Train Engineers DO make as much as most pilots, if not more. The bus drivers don't do to bad either. Considering that both jobs only require 2 dimensional thought and can be done by almost anybody, that is pretty good.

The responsibility of today's airline pilot is truly awesome. That is not meant to self-ingraciate myself or any other pilot, but it is just the way it is. The mechanic, CSR, ramper, load planner, and, OK, even the screener all have a good degree of responsibility. But when their jobs are done at night and they go home to watch Leno, who is left with the results of their work? If one of them screws up, who is the with the responsibility to fix it and find a workable solution? That is why we make more. That is why some complain about the pay cuts, because the responsibilities of the job have increased, the working hours have increased, the time home with the kids have decreased, and for all of that we are paid less. It is still a great job, but it has changed. Change isn't always good.

So "B777A340Fan", wherever you live and whatever you do I do not care. I just hope that next time you can think a little deeper before comparing jobs and opening your mouth.

Good Day.

Tozairport

Quoting SteveSWA737 (Reply 29): First of all, it never ceases to amaze me how cruel people can be on this forum.

I don't think DLPMM was trying to be cruel. He was just giving an honest analysis of the job. Some people may not want to hear it, but that doesn't make it any less true.

Quoting SteveSWA737 (Reply 29): Once you make it through the interview process and the 5 week training program and the 6 month probation period, the job of Flight Attendant is pretty simple for the most part.

Which is exactly why FA pay isn't going to be too great. Most jobs that pay well are complex and require continued renewal of skills (though there are exceptions to this).

Quoting SteveSWA737 (Reply 29): Some see it as just a job and get out of the industry after a few years to pursue other interest and some fall in love with the profession and decide to make it a lifetime career.

That's fine. If you enjoy being an FA, there's nothing wrong with making it a career. However, you can't expect the pay to be "career" type pay. I think that's where the problem is. Many career FA's believe that since they've been there for 30 years that automatically entitles them to high pay. Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way. Because whether you've been there 3 years or 30 years, it's still a relatively low skill job...ergo the pay isn't going to be high.

Quoting Sideflare75 (Reply 34): When you get off the plane your work is done.

Actually Sideflare75, the exact opposite is true. When you get done my work is just beginning. If you did your job right, then my job is that much easier. If you did not, then I have to deal with it, not you. I once depressurized in a 767 because the mechanics did a "remove and replace" repair and didn't bother to take the time and troubleshoot the problem. So who's resposibility was it at that point for those 200+ lives when we had a rapid-d over RNO? Those mechanics were long gone by then. Luckily, pilots for the most part are highly skilled and trained, and handling this emergency was almost a matter of routine. So if your logic makes you rich, then I should have enough money to buy Bill Gate's house.

Wrench Safe

tozairport

FLYGUYCLT..post 17
You left out one little detail about the McDonald manager making around 40g's
a year...
How many hours does the fast food MANAGER work in a week and how many hours does a flight attendant of say, 12 years seniority work in a week?
I have a feeling the fast food manager will do at least twice as many hours if not three times what the F.A. of 12 years will do.

safe

Whomever said being an F/A is a job rather than a career is exactly correct. Do 40 year olds sell clothes at the Gap? For the most part, NO. But do you see salespeople at the Gap bitching about their pay and how they can't "make a living"? No! And this is because it is not a CAREER! It is simply a job to bring in a paycheck until something better comes along (or you finish school and get more skills, or whatever). Do waiters/waitresses bitch about not being able to live on $7.00/hr + tips? No! Because it is not a career!

If you love being a flight attendant, that is fantastic, and I am happy you love what you are doing. But face it, you are working at a job that is fairly low-skilled (or else there would not be such a deluge of applications), and where it is not meant to be a "permanent job" any more than selling clothes at the Gap or waiting tables.

How do you think "low-cost carriers" are low cost? Because they have a bunch of young flight attendants willing to work for little and travel around the country and don't care about being unionized (because they'll probably quit in a few years). It is the new paradigm, so you better get used to it.

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 39): I have a feeling the fast food manager will do at least twice as many hours if not three times what the F.A. of 12 years will do.

Well, it depends on how you count hours worked. I Flight attendant (or pilot for that matter) will probably "work" about 25-30 hours per week. By work I mean time in the air. Do do these hours, the pilot or F/A will probably spend 3-4 DAYS away from home, or about 72-96 hours. At first this might not seem like "work hours", but ask any business traveler who is sitting around in a hotel away from home on a business trip if he is "working". I think most would say yes. For flight crews it is the same.

This is not a complaint about the aviation career, just an observation. Comparing the job of a Micky-D's manager to that of a crew member is really apples and oranges. It's a stupid comparison.

Think safe

tozairport

Quoting Tozairport (Reply 38): Actually Sideflare75, the exact opposite is true. When you get done my work is just beginning.

That is true but the work I did stays with the aircraft forever. You fly it today and if something happens tomorrow you have no responsibility. I fix it today and something happens tomorrow, I'm still liable. That was all I was trying to say. My signature stays in the logbook forever.

Don't get me wrong, I have alot of respect for most pilots. I say most because there are some that look down on everyone and those I can live without. We all have a responsibility to keep the planes in the air. I know when I'm flying I want the best pilot at the controls, and I hope you guys feel the same way when something is broken.

I don't understand all the venom being directed at people who choose or would like to choose the flight attendant CAREER...And who decides what's a career and what is a job? Who decides what makes a person a success in life. I've always valued life experience over wealth...to me that is success.
When I started my flying career in the 80's at 22 I felt like I had hit the lottery. I actually couldn't believe I got paid to fly all over the world. It is the career that I chose.

I certainly have nothing against anyone who works at McDonald's if they choose, every job has honor in one way or the other.

I venture to guess that most of the people that put down the flight attendant profession would never make it past the cattle call to the barrage of interviews to follow,,, much less the intensity of the training.

There is no other job like it and no other job where other people feel they have the right to tell YOU when its time to quit.

If you are tolerant, respectful of other people and cultures, want an unconventional lifestyle, that will never be boring, become a flight attendant.

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 39):

-A flight attendant working a typical 4 day domestic trip is usually on Duty up to 13 hours a day. So. 13X4= 52 hours on duty a week. Not including layover time, and transit to and from the airport.

-A McDonald's salaried managers schedule is usually arranged at 9 hours per shift, 5 days a week. So 9X5=45 hours. Does not look like twice the time to me.

-Why are you guys on here just being downright nasty. I never said McD's workers don't work. I never said Flight Attendants don't work. I am just answering some of the ridiculous accusations with facts. So nice try guys ! But quite frankly, some of you are talking out of the wrong hole.

Any more questions?

Safe Flying  

[Edited 2005-11-18 22:49:27]

Quoting Sideflare75 (Reply 42): I know when I'm flying I want the best pilot at the controls, and I hope you guys feel the same way when something is broken.

On this we agree....   

Take care now

Quoting ASAFA (Reply 5): his is simply a reflection on how awful the US economy and job market are,

What are you talking about?? Home ownership is at all time highs, inflation is in check, unemployment is low, lower than any european country, the stock market is back to nearly pre-9/11 levels, we have gdp growth....now what exactly is bad about the economy and job market?

FLYGUYCLT..post 44
The fast food managers I know push around 60 hours a week "at the store".
A 7-11 manager I know does 50 to 60. I hear her sob every morning for three years now.
I'm not including transit time either...and thats good news for F.A.s

Now lets compare F.A.s with a hospital R.N.
Any takers on this one?........... said the spider to the fly.

NO ONE is being nasty. This is conversation about F.A.s which we all know and love and need. Please don't take anything here personal.
keep smilin"

safe   

Quoting Tozairport (Reply 36): Your correlation is about as moronic as BayAreaPilots's statement at the beginning of the thread.

  

Quoting Tozairport (Reply 36): No, no, no, no. Train/bus conductors are responsible for taking a ticket, fluffing your pillow, and helping in an evac when necessary. Not that much responsibility.

Uhhhhh, excuse me?? "Conductor" is defined by dictionary.com as:

"One who conducts, especially, one who is in charge of a railroad train, bus, or streetcar"

So until you understand what I REALLY meant, I wouldn't post a comment. True, with more money comes more responsibility. But I wouldn't undermine the importance of those who take your ticket, fluff your pillows, and help evacuate when necessary. How arrogant are you?

Quoting Tozairport (Reply 36): So "B777A340Fan", wherever you live and whatever you do I do not care. I just hope that next time you can think a little deeper before comparing jobs and opening your mouth.

I do think a little deeper before comparing jobs and opening my mouth. Thank you very much.

Going into some severe thread drift here, but why not...

Quoting B777A340Fan (Reply 48): "Conductor" is defined by dictionary.com as: "One who conducts, especially, one who is in charge of a railroad train, bus, or streetcar"

Congratulations Poindexter, you can use a dictionary. Why don't you check out

http://www.collegeboard.com/csearch/...reers/profiles/careers/104832.html

and

http://www.ble.org/info/engineer.asp

and you tell me which job bears the responsibility on the train. The conductor has an important job, I would never say they didn't. They coordinate the cabin, oversee the other pursers, take tickets, coordinate with the engineer, etc. Gee, does that job sound familiar. The engineer on the other hand, DRIVES THE TRAIN! He is responsible from getting to point A to point B safely. The Engineer must be certificated by the FRA. Maybe this should say something to you.

Quoting B777A340Fan (Reply 48): So until you understand what I REALLY meant, I wouldn't post a comment.

OK, that has got to be the most pathetic, weak spined reply I have ever seen. If I am really not getting your point, educate me. Fill me with the width and breadth of your awesome knowledge. I wait on pins and needles to find out what you "really" meant.   

Quoting B777A340Fan (Reply 48): I do think a little deeper before comparing jobs and opening my mouth. Thank you very much.

Oop, nope! you just did it again!   

Have a great day.