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EnviroTO
Posts: 723
Joined: Sat Aug 07, 2004 12:11 pm

RE: Dubai To Become Busiest Airport In The World

Thu Nov 24, 2005 3:11 pm

Just most of China, India, and Africa can't afford to fly now doesn't mean they won't be able to afford to fly later. Dubai is already 11th in terms of international passengers flown over the past 12 months as of August 2005.

1. LONDON, GB (LHR) 60 765 777 1.8%
2. PARIS, FR (CDG) 47 778 661 4.4%
3. FRANKFURT, DE (FRA) 44 447 234 3.7%
4. AMSTERDAM, NL (AMS) 43 382 921 3.9%
5. HONG KONG, CN (HKG) 38 962 000 12.4%
6. SINGAPORE, SG (SIN) 30 072 694 8.9%
7. LONDON, GB (LGW) 28 534 983 6.5%
8. TOKYO, JP (NRT) 27 169 636 5.0%
9. BANGKOK, TH (BKK) 26 480 921 6.5%
10. SEOUL, KR (ICN) 25 331 099 11.5%
11. DUBAI, AE (DXB) 22 777 769 13.8%

In addition they are turning Dubai into a brand new modern city with plenty of attractions for tourist looking for a sun filled getaway in Vegas style. I'm not a big Vegas fan myself but it is the fastest growing city in America so building a large city in Dubai isn't that much of a stretch. Dubai has the money to pull it off so we will just have to see what it looks like in 30 years.
 
Glareskin
Topic Author
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RE: Dubai To Become Busiest Airport In The World

Thu Nov 24, 2005 4:04 pm

This picture was published in the Dutch newspaper De Volkskrant this morning. The article describes that future competition for AMS is not coming from FRA or London but from Dubai.....
There's still a long way to go before all the alliances deserve a star...
 
cloudy
Posts: 1613
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2002 3:23 pm

RE: Dubai To Become Busiest Airport In The World

Thu Nov 24, 2005 4:55 pm

Quoting N60659 (Reply 74):

Are you basing this on past history or future projections? According to Boeing's CMO, GDP for China and Southwest Asia (which includes India) is supposed to grow at 6% and 4.8% respectively per year for the next twenty years. By comparison, the GDP for North America and Europe are expected to grow at 2.9% and 2.1% respectively per year for the next 20 years. In addition, Boeing projects the need for over 3300 new aircraft over

That is true. Most of the future growth of demand for air travel is in Asia. In time, there will be more demand for air travel in Asia than in either North America or Europe. I am not aware of a single knowledgable observer that thinks otherwise. Even gadflys like Michael Boyd agree on this one.

There are a couple other factors to consider. They are admittedly not nearly as important as economic growth or population size, but they still have an influence.

When considering the growth potential of air travel in the United States, You have to consider that most of the flying public hates air travel. Those who do like it are either aviation enthusiests or those who fly rarely enough for it to count as a novelty. Take an average flight in the US - 9 out of 10 of the bodies in the seats don't want to be there. They may be excited because of the DESTINATION. They may fly because of the SPEED it offers. But the trip itself is a chore, made bearable by the need to get to the destination quickly. Americans hate the sheer hassle of air travel. They like the control and the comfort automobiles offer. Most places you go to in the US you need a car at the destination anyway. Most Americans are tall and/or wide enough to make airline seats significantly less comfortable than the alternatives.

This is not neccesarily true in places like India and China. Here, people arn't as tall and, well, fat as Americans tend to be on the average(For the predjudice police - I did NOT say EVERYBODY. I just said ON THE AVERAGE. Same applies to the rest of what I'm saying). They are less individualistic, and more communitarian. These factors make them more tolerant, overall, of the airline experience than Americans. The freeways and other roads in Asia tend not to be as extensive. This makes me think if the GNP and population were the same, India and China would have more air traffic than the US. Since both India and China have much larger populations - it would not be extreme to propose that BOTH India and China could have three times the air traffic of the US in a few decades. The big spoiler here is not the car but the high-speed train. But high speed trains are not a factor in longhaul or overwater routes. Also, without massive subsidies, the economic picture is much better for air travel in most cases.

IN SHORT.....Unless something big and unexpected happens, the future of air travel growth is in Asia. As long as economic growth persists, the Asian air travel market will enjoy huge growth for decades to come. If Dubai is indeed a good transfer point between points in Asia and Europe and Africa, it is in a great position.
 
United Airline
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RE: Dubai To Become Busiest Airport In The World

Thu Nov 24, 2005 5:07 pm

There are chances for USA and Europe to grow still......

I doubt the middle east or Dubai will ever become a leading large international business/financial centre. And I doubt they will ever surpass the world's top 3 largest business/financial centres (New York, London and Hong Kong). They can be no 1 in many hardwares but software is another issue. It's hard.

Again my 2 cents. Let's wait and see.
 
cornish
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RE: Dubai To Become Busiest Airport In The World

Thu Nov 24, 2005 6:08 pm

Quoting BA (Reply 97):
Out of the 42,393,766 passengers that passed through Denver in 2004 (10th busiest airport in the world), 56% of those passengers were O&D (Origin & Destination), while the remaining 44% were transiting.

Considering the number of passengers that pass through DEN, that's a pretty big O&D figure.

DEN was ranked as the 2nd largest local domestic O&D passenger per population among the major US hubs.

http://www.metrodenver.org/documents...ngerTrafficSatistics_April2005.pdf

While it is no New York, Chicago, or Los Angeles, Denver has a very large O&D market. So it isn't as insignificant as you claim.

That is a big O&D figure indeed - certainly bigger than I expected, so I stand corrected from a US domestic perspective.

However, from an international perspective, it surely still sits a long way behind many other US cities, as my understanding is that there still is a limited number of international services in and out of the city.
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
United Airline
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RE: Dubai To Become Busiest Airport In The World

Thu Nov 24, 2005 6:25 pm

Heard that they plan to turn DEN into an international hub. Not sure if they will succeed
 
BA
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RE: Dubai To Become Busiest Airport In The World

Thu Nov 24, 2005 6:37 pm

Quoting Cornish (Reply 104):
However, from an international perspective, it surely still sits a long way behind many other US cities, as my understanding is that there still is a limited number of international services in and out of the city.

1x daily British Airways B777-200ER from London Heathrow.
1x daily Lufthansa A340-600 (B747-400 in the summer) from Frankfurt.
1x daily Mexicana A320-200 from Mexico City.
1x daily United Airlines A319-100 from Mexico City (starting in December).
2x daily Air Canada A320-200 (3x daily in high season) from Toronto.
2x daily United Airlines 737-300/500 (A320s and 757s during high season) from Vancouver.
2x daily United Airlines 737-300/500 from Calgary.
1x daily (2x daily during high season) United Express (Operated by Skywest) CRJ200 from Calgary.
2x daily United Express (Operated by Skywest) CRJ700 from Edmonton.
2x daily United Express (Operated by Skywest) CRJ200 from Winnipeg.

In addition, Frontier Airlines has flights to Los Cabos, Mazatlan, Puerto Vallarta, Ixtapa/Zihuatanejo, and Cancun. They are starting Acapulco and Cozumel next month.

United Airline's low-cost subsidiary, Ted, flies to Los Cabos, Puerto Vallarta, and Cancun.

While not international, United Airlines has a daily flight to Honolulu on 767-300s or 777-200s depending on the season plus a Saturday service to Kona on 757-200s. They also have a daily A320-200 to Anchorage.

So while DEN certainly doesn't have an extremely high amount of international service, it does have some. The number of Mexico destinations has increased dramatically over the past few years.

Regards

[Edited 2005-11-24 10:39:15]
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
Carpethead
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RE: Dubai To Become Busiest Airport In The World

Thu Nov 24, 2005 6:57 pm

Who would hand thought of hourly 747/777 flights between HND-ITM/CTS/FUK thirty years ago by two carriers in Japan? Tokyo Haneda is now fourth on pax numbers. If a.net were around then, nobody would have predicted this.
Never say never.

Though most Japanese go to Europe direct or connect in Seoul or European main hubs, many transit through BKK, KUL, & SIN on their way to Europe. Sounds crazy but true. DXB will actually make this type of connection shorter than thru SE Asia.
 
Emirates773ER
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RE: Dubai To Become Busiest Airport In The World

Thu Nov 24, 2005 11:30 pm

Throughout the thread what I didn't see people talking about are all the A380, B773ER and A346HGW which Emirates is going to acquire during the next 10 years. With such huge whales in its fleet flying people from all over the world into dubai why does 120 million look such big a number? If you check out the dubai airport website

http://www.dubaiairport.com/DIA/Engl...pMenu/About+DIA/Facts+and+Figures/

You can easily see that dubai is reporting a 15% annual increase in traffic every year even when we don't have airlines like Qantas, VS, EI, AC serving dubai at present plus a lot of passengers tend to visit dubai for recreational purposes such as shopping(especially during their Dubai Shopping festival which has a record increase in visitors every year), sight seeing and obviously business we should even take them into account.

[Edited 2005-11-24 15:31:52]
The Truth is Out There ---- Face It!!!!!
 
FokkerVII
Posts: 47
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RE: Dubai To Become Busiest Airport In The World

Thu Nov 24, 2005 11:53 pm

I think the main point here is more choice to the flying public.
If you are going from the US east coast to Asia you now can choose to fly direct, to transfer in Europe or to transfer in the mid-east (Dubai). What do you prefer: 2 long flights, 1 long and 1 short(-er) flight or one looooong flight.

The question is going to be: what are airports like AMS and airlines like KLM (or FRA and LH/ BA and LHR) going to do to attract passengers to fly through their hub?

Same thing can apply to flying transcon in the USA. Direct, through hubs in the middle of the country (like ORD or DEN) or via hubs on each coast.
 
JetMaster
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Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2005 7:46 am

RE: Dubai To Become Busiest Airport In The World

Fri Nov 25, 2005 1:03 am

Quoting ER757 (Reply 88):
Udo, you surprise me with this remark. It has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion topic and you know it. It's irrelevant and that's not like you.

That was an ironic remark. Hint: smiley...  Wink

Quoting United Airline (Reply 94):
I believe DXB and EK will grow but I seriously doubt it will ever become one of the biggest or the biggest or surpass HKG, SIN, LHR, ATL, ORD, DEN etc and CX, SQ, UA, BA etc.

You are not interested in numbers or hard facts, are you? At current growth rates EK will soon surpass CX and then SQ at a later date. And it seems EK wants to grow even faster than before with all recent orders.

Quoting Schipholjfk (Reply 98):
It's all part of exxageration that you have to scoff at. Just like building the planned tallest building in the middle of the desert for purely symbolism purposes.

What kind of exaggeration? All the stuff they have built into the desert has been selling well and helped to attract even more visitors. What's wrong with constructing the world's largest building when they can easily sell and rent out office space and apartments? The demand for the Palms and The World islands speaks for itself and well encourages to build more stunning projects like the Burj Dubai tower.

Quoting United Airline (Reply 103):
I doubt the middle east or Dubai will ever become a leading large international business/financial centre.

It is already an international business and finance center and it gets more important every day. Ignoring that development won't stop it.


Regards,
JM
The Journey is my Destination
 
United Airline
Posts: 8971
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:24 pm

RE: Dubai To Become Busiest Airport In The World

Fri Nov 25, 2005 2:26 am

Quoting JetMaster (Reply 110):
You are not interested in numbers or hard facts, are you? At current growth rates EK will soon surpass CX and then SQ at a later date. And it seems EK wants to grow even faster than before with all recent orders.

Well it hasn't surpassed CX and SQ yet. Wait until the day it happens and we shall discuss this again. I doubt it will ever happen but we will see.

Quoting JetMaster (Reply 110):
It is already an international business and finance center and it gets more important every day. Ignoring that development won't stop it.

So far it still lacks far behind (SOFTWARE WISE) the world's top 3 largest business/financial centres which are New York, London and Hong Kong or even Tokyo, Frankfurt, Zurich, Singapore, Paris, Chicago, Milan etc. Tourism is the main industry. I know they are trying to turn themselves into a major business/financial centre but whether or not they will succeed is yet to be seen.

Quoting BA (Reply 106):
1x daily British Airways B777-200ER from London Heathrow.
1x daily Lufthansa A340-600 (B747-400 in the summer) from Frankfurt.
1x daily Mexicana A320-200 from Mexico City.
1x daily United Airlines A319-100 from Mexico City (starting in December).
2x daily Air Canada A320-200 (3x daily in high season) from Toronto.
2x daily United Airlines 737-300/500 (A320s and 757s during high season) from Vancouver.
2x daily United Airlines 737-300/500 from Calgary.
1x daily (2x daily during high season) United Express (Operated by Skywest) CRJ200 from Calgary.
2x daily United Express (Operated by Skywest) CRJ700 from Edmonton.
2x daily United Express (Operated by Skywest) CRJ200 from Winnipeg.

Not too bad
 
JetMaster
Posts: 583
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2005 7:46 am

RE: Dubai To Become Busiest Airport In The World

Fri Nov 25, 2005 2:38 am

Quoting United Airline (Reply 111):
Well it hasn't surpassed CX and SQ yet. Wait until the day it happens and we shall discuss this again. I doubt it will ever happen but we will see.

What about the growth rates of the past years? There's no indication EK's growth stops anytime soon and there's no indication CX's and SQ's growth rates jump to EK's levels anytime soon. So it's simply a matter of time.

Quoting United Airline (Reply 111):
So far it still lacks far behind

I didn't suggest otherwise. And Dubai doesn't need to become a mega-financial/business center like London, New York or Tokyo in order to build up a mega-hub.

What's the world's busiest airport by passengers? Is it located in New York, London or Tokyo? No. Somewhere in Georgia...  Wink


Regards,
JM
The Journey is my Destination
 
United Airline
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Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:24 pm

RE: Dubai To Become Busiest Airport In The World

Fri Nov 25, 2005 2:54 am

Actually HKG is ahead of Tokyo in terms of turnover. Big grin

Thanks for the explanation. Though I still doubt DXB will ever surpass HKG, SIN, LHR, JFK, ATL, NRT etc in terms of passenger numbers as well as traffic and become no 1. And I doubt EK will surpass SQ, CX, BA, UA, LH etc and become no 1 eventually. Guess I will see. I could be wrong.

Cheers.
 
D L X
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Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

RE: Dubai To Become Busiest Airport In The World

Fri Nov 25, 2005 3:10 am

Quoting JetMaster (Reply 80):
Yes, and two of my examples did not contain Oceania but Asian destinations (KUL & MNL). So no, not off-context.

KUL is definitely Oceana. MNL is so close that it can be grouped with them. MNL is a LONG way from China, Korea, and Japan, and much closer to Oz.

Quoting JetMaster (Reply 80):
India is just 3 hours away, not really far for someone who has to travel on long distances.

India is a wee bit futher than 3 hours. 1400 miles adds at least 4.5, probably 6.

Quoting JetMaster (Reply 80):
What about South America to India?

How big is that market?

Quoting N60659 (Reply 87):
I wouldn't base any major market prediction on the route network of a current US carrier. Only recently (within the last few months) have carriers like CO (IAH-DEL) and AA (ORD-DEL) been offering any non-stop flights to India.

Actually, United has has a non-stop from ORD off and on for years, and the RTW flight went via India.

Quoting JetMaster (Reply 112):
What's the world's busiest airport by passengers? Is it located in New York, London or Tokyo? No. Somewhere in Georgia...

THat would be a good point, except that I'm pretty sure it's no longer true. And part of the reason is what will prevent DXB from becoming "the Busiest Airport in the World" as this thread title suggests.
 
AirbusA6
Posts: 1648
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RE: Dubai To Become Busiest Airport In The World

Fri Nov 25, 2005 3:18 am

My concerns about Dubai's growth are

1) Is it attractive enough as a destination to make it a good stopover location? In the winter perhaps, for sun worshipers, but in August??? It's not exactly the cultural heart of the middle east either (not everyone wants to shop or play golf).

2) With all the other regional airports and airlines trying to copy their strategy, will this end in a price war between them and their airlines, with their expensively acquired A380s and 777s?

3) Will there be enough expats to staff this growth? (western and other muslim)

4) Will the new generation of super efficient mid sized planes (787, A350) increase the number of secondary point to point flights, and steal much of their market?
it's the bus to stansted (now renamed National Express a6 to ruin my username)
 
FCYTravis
Posts: 1172
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2005 4:21 am

RE: Dubai To Become Busiest Airport In The World

Fri Nov 25, 2005 3:28 am

You won't be wrong. EK will never have high-volume domestic service, which pretty much permanently eliminates its home airport from contention in the "busiest airport in the world" race.

ATL has 83 million passengers because just about everything Delta flies domestically connects through there. Likewise, ORD has 75 million passengers because AA and UA operate massive domestic connection hubs - along with the major O&D market.

Dubai isn't even listed in the Top 30 busiest airports right now - which means it has less traffic than even the 28 million passengers who transit the US hub at PHL. Get back to me when DXB is even in the Top 10.

Nobody's denying that it's an airport on the move - but to claim that it will ever be the busiest airport in the world is unwarranted boosterism, hype and hyperbole.
USAir A321 service now departing for SFO with fuel stops in CAK, COS and RNO. Enjoy your flight.
 
N60659
Posts: 639
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 3:24 pm

RE: Dubai To Become Busiest Airport In The World

Fri Nov 25, 2005 3:30 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 114):
India is a wee bit futher than 3 hours. 1400 miles adds at least 4.5, probably 6.

No sir. If you are talking about flights from DXB to Indian destinations and check the EK Schedules to India, all flights are between 3.5 and 4.5 hours (gate to gate).

-N60659
Nec Dextrorsum Nec Sinistrorsum
 
JetMaster
Posts: 583
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2005 7:46 am

RE: Dubai To Become Busiest Airport In The World

Fri Nov 25, 2005 3:31 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 114):
KUL is definitely Oceana.

First of all - what's "Oceana"? I only know Oceania.

And are you talking about Kuala Lumpur or do you mean another destination with "KUL"? Kuala Kumpur is definitely in the heart of South East Asia, not even an hour from Singapore but eight hours from Sydney and ten from Auckland. A globe might help sometimes...

Quoting D L X (Reply 114):
MNL is so close that it can be grouped with them.

You mean MNL = Manila? I fear you do...

Quoting D L X (Reply 114):
MNL is a LONG way from China, Korea, and Japan, and much closer to Oz.

MNL is some four hours from either Beijing, Seoul or Tokyo. And eight hours from Sydney...

Quoting D L X (Reply 114):
India is a wee bit futher than 3 hours. 1400 miles adds at least 4.5, probably 6.

DXB-BOM = 2:45 hours
DXB-DEL = 3:05 hours

So you say six hours? Sorry, but for all these statements you deserve a

Quoting D L X (Reply 114):
How big is that market?

I don't know. But a growing market like India might also be interesting for a whole continent. Don't you think?

Quoting D L X (Reply 114):
THat would be a good point, except that I'm pretty sure it's no longer true. And part of the reason is what will prevent DXB from becoming "the Busiest Airport in the World" as this thread title suggests.

Well, my point is Atlanta is nowhere close to financial/business centers like New York, London or Tokyo but still has the world's busiest airport by passengers.


Regards,
JM

[Edited 2005-11-24 19:41:54]
The Journey is my Destination
 
BA
Posts: 10514
Joined: Fri May 19, 2000 11:06 am

RE: Dubai To Become Busiest Airport In The World

Fri Nov 25, 2005 3:42 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 114):
KUL is definitely Oceana. MNL is so close that it can be grouped with them.

Actually, it isn't. It's part of Southeast Asia.

Oceania refers to Australia, New Zealand, Papua New Guinea and the many Pacific islands such as the Federated States of Micronesia, French Polynesia, Fiji, the Marshal Islands, etc.



Quoting D L X (Reply 114):
MNL is a LONG way from China, Korea, and Japan, and much closer to Oz.

Actually, Manila is much closer to China, Korea, and Japan than it is to Australia.

http://www.mapblast.com/(x2i2fevlnxx...&P=|4E84|&TI=Manila%2c+Philippines

Quoting D L X (Reply 114):
THat would be a good point, except that I'm pretty sure it's no longer true.

Atlanta Hartsfield is still the busiest airport in the world.

Quoting FCYTravis (Reply 116):
EK will never have high-volume domestic service, which pretty much permanently eliminates its home airport from contention in the "busiest airport in the world" race.

EK doesn't have any domestic service period.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
FCYTravis
Posts: 1172
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2005 4:21 am

RE: Dubai To Become Busiest Airport In The World

Fri Nov 25, 2005 3:53 am

Quoting JetMaster (Reply 118):
Well, my point is Atlanta is nowhere close to financial/business centers like New York, London or Tokyo but still has the world's busiest airport by passengers.

Because it serves as the megahub for an airline's high-frequency domestic service to hundreds of destinations in the largest air travel market in the world.

DXB will never be a hub for such frequent service to so many destinations, and as a result will never have the title. That's all.
USAir A321 service now departing for SFO with fuel stops in CAK, COS and RNO. Enjoy your flight.
 
JetMaster
Posts: 583
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2005 7:46 am

RE: Dubai To Become Busiest Airport In The World

Fri Nov 25, 2005 4:02 am

Quoting FCYTravis (Reply 120):

Because it serves as the megahub for an airline's high-frequency domestic service to hundreds of destinations in the largest air travel market in the world.

I'm well aware of that fact. I simply tried to point out that a city doesn't need to be a mega-finance/business center in order to have a mega-hub - as user United Airline has been suggesting all the time.

Quoting FCYTravis (Reply 120):
DXB will never be a hub for such frequent service to so many destinations, and as a result will never have the title. That's all.

And I have actually never said DXB would win the title. Though it will be one of the world's international mega hubs in the future. That's all.


Regards,
JM
The Journey is my Destination
 
D L X
Posts: 12671
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

RE: Dubai To Become Busiest Airport In The World

Fri Nov 25, 2005 4:07 am

Quoting JetMaster (Reply 118):
First of all - what's "Oceana"? I only know Oceania

Same difference.

Quoting JetMaster (Reply 118):
And are talking about Kuala Lumpur or do you mean another destination with "KUL"? Kuala Kumpur is definitely in the heart of South East Asia, eight hours from Sydney and not even an hour from Singapore. A globe might help sometimes...

From dictionary.reference.com:

Oceania - The islands of the southern, western, and central Pacific Ocean, including Melanesia, Micronesia, and Polynesia. The term is sometimes extended to encompass Australia, New Zealand, and the Malay Archipelago.

I'm pretty sure Kuala Lumpur is on the Malay Archipelago. But maybe your globe disagrees.

Quoting JetMaster (Reply 118):
You mean MNL = Manila? I fear you do...

Pardon me, I was looking at the wrong island. So, fine. But you've fallen into the trap as it hurts your argument. DXB is still out of the way to MNL from Europe, although not terribly so.

Quoting JetMaster (Reply 118):
DXB-BOM = 2:45 hours
DXB-DEL = 3:05 hours

So you say six hours? Sorry, but for all these statements you deserve a

I thought we were talking about connections... are you going to ignore the connection time? Maybe 6 was on the high side, but if you don't think you're going to add another 4.5 hours with the connection, you're crazy. Red flag me all you want.

Quoting JetMaster (Reply 118):
I don't know. But a growing market like India might also be interesting for a whole continent. Don't you think?

and double connections galore! Or, is EK going to fly 777s to every little outpost in South America? Not bad for an airline with 70 destinations, none of which are in South America.

Look folks, EK is an impressive airline, and Dubai is an impressive place. But don't think for a second that they are the epitome.
 
BA
Posts: 10514
Joined: Fri May 19, 2000 11:06 am

RE: Dubai To Become Busiest Airport In The World

Fri Nov 25, 2005 4:15 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 122):
Oceania - The islands of the southern, western, and central Pacific Ocean, including Melanesia, Micronesia, and Polynesia. The term is sometimes extended to encompass Australia, New Zealand, and the Malay Archipelago.

Oceania refers to the Pacific islands east of Papua New Guinea, Australia, and New Zealand which also encompass Oceania.

Only Papua New Guinea on the Malay Archipelago is considered part of Oceania. The rest of the Malay Archipelago is part of Southeast Asia.

Check the map I posted above.

Quoting D L X (Reply 122):
I'm pretty sure Kuala Lumpur is on the Malay Archipelago. But maybe your globe disagrees.

Kuala Lumpur isn't on the Malay Archipelago. It's on the Malay Peninsula.

Regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
JetMaster
Posts: 583
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2005 7:46 am

RE: Dubai To Become Busiest Airport In The World

Fri Nov 25, 2005 4:35 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 122):
Same difference.

No. Oceania exists, Oceana doesn't.

Quoting D L X (Reply 122):

I'm pretty sure Kuala Lumpur is on the Malay Archipelago. But maybe your globe disagrees.

Yes, my globe disagrees because it's the right one. And btw - even if KUL were located on the Malay Archipelago it wouldn't help to prove your original point.

Quoting D L X (Reply 122):
DXB is still out of the way to MNL from Europe, although not terribly so.

With extremely few European airlines going nonstop to MNL (not even BA, AF and LH do), it's much closer with EK - which serves not only primary destinations but also a wide range of secondary ones in Europe. Nobody checks the exact distances on the globe when searching a flight. And even if some do - not everyone of those checks the right globe...  Wink

Quoting D L X (Reply 122):
I thought we were talking about connections... are you going to ignore the connection time?

You talked about flying time, so don't distract from the subject now.

And even if you get a nonstop from the US (JFK?) to India (DEL?) - do you expect to transit through other American and Indian airports en route much faster than through DXB? (Note: not everyone wants to go from only JFK to DEL only)

Quoting D L X (Reply 122):
Maybe 6 was on the high side, but if you don't think you're going to add another 4.5 hours with the connection, you're crazy.

Well, then I must be crazy according to you because EK does offer many connections with transit times (a lot) less than 4.5 hours...  scared 

Quoting D L X (Reply 122):
and double connections galore! Or, is EK going to fly 777s to every little outpost in South America?

I wouldn't consider EZE, GIG or GRU little outposts...and if you refer to all those other South American cities - a journey from there to India probably involves not only two but three or four stops today...so if a fast EK service can reduce that to two, then isn't that progress?


Regards,
JM
The Journey is my Destination
 
United Airline
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RE: Dubai To Become Busiest Airport In The World

Fri Nov 25, 2005 5:08 am

The Malaysian Government should further promote KUL as a hub. There are huge potentials there and I think they should get their acts together and attract more airlines and compete with SIN
 
D L X
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RE: Dubai To Become Busiest Airport In The World

Fri Nov 25, 2005 7:20 am

Quoting BA (Reply 123):
Only Papua New Guinea on the Malay Archipelago is considered part of Oceania. The rest of the Malay Archipelago is part of Southeast Asia.

Also from dictionary.reference.com:
Malay Archipelago - An island group of southeast Asia between Australia and the Asian mainland and separating the Indian and Pacific oceans. It includes Indonesia, the Philippines, and *Malaysia.*

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=malay%20archipelago

Now, I'd love to hear you say that Kuala Lumpur isn't in Malaysia.

Quoting JetMaster (Reply 124):
No. Oceania exists, Oceana doesn't.

Aren't we childish today?

Quoting JetMaster (Reply 124):
Yes, my globe disagrees because it's the right one. quote]
Feel free to disagree with Webster all you want. Doesn't bother me any, Udo.

[quote=JetMaster,reply=124] And btw - even if KUL were located on the Malay Archipelago it wouldn't help to prove your original point.

Actually... seeing that I said that DXB *would* be a good connection point for Oceania, and that KUL is in Oceania, not only does it prove my point, but it's something I agree with you on. So why the hell are you arguing with me about it?!

Quoting JetMaster (Reply 124):
With extremely few European airlines going nonstop to MNL...

Okay Udo, you go build your superhub in Dubai funneling Athenians to Manila. Have fun.

Quoting JetMaster (Reply 124):
I wouldn't consider EZE, GIG or GRU little outposts...and if you refer to all those other South American cities - a journey from there to India probably involves not only two but three or four stops today...so if a fast EK service can reduce that to two, then isn't that progress?

It would be, but I don't think it will happen. EK currently serves no S. American cities. There's probably a reason for that.

Anyways, this has been fun. Continue to disagree with me as you so desire. You seem to like to argue, even if your argument does not support your final position. You may even be right and I wrong in certain aspects, but my point is simple: Dubai isn't going to be the busiest airport in the world. Ever.
 
BA
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RE: Dubai To Become Busiest Airport In The World

Fri Nov 25, 2005 7:35 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 126):
Also from dictionary.reference.com:
Malay Archipelago - An island group of southeast Asia between Australia and the Asian mainland and separating the Indian and Pacific oceans. It includes Indonesia, the Philippines, and *Malaysia.*

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=malay%20archipelago

Now, I'd love to hear you say that Kuala Lumpur isn't in Malaysia.

Kuala Lumpur is in Malaysia, but it isn't on the Malay Archipelago, it's on the Malay Peninsula.



Quoting D L X (Reply 126):
Actually... seeing that I said that DXB *would* be a good connection point for Oceania, and that KUL is in Oceania, not only does it prove my point, but it's something I agree with you on. So why the hell are you arguing with me about it?!

KUL is not in Oceania. It's in Southeast Asia.

Oceania refers only to Papua New Guinea, Australia, New Zealand, and the Pacific islands east of them.

[Edited 2005-11-24 23:37:29]
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
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fraspotter
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RE: Dubai To Become Busiest Airport In The World

Fri Nov 25, 2005 9:35 am

Quoting United Airline (Reply 24):
BTW any plans for Qatar and Doha?

I have been to that airport and they are going to have to put some serious money to expand it. There are NO jetways, just rolling stairs and what do you get when you try to load or unload a full A380 using airstairs? Chaos...
I was at Doha last year and they had just recently finished renevating the airport... however it is WAY to small for the A380 since the waiting areas for each gate can hold less than 100 people. major expansion is needed at Doha...
"The strength of the turbulence is directly proportional to the temperature of your coffee."

— Gunter's Second Law of Air Travel
 
A332
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RE: Dubai To Become Busiest Airport In The World

Fri Nov 25, 2005 9:49 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 126):
Anyways, this has been fun. Continue to disagree with me as you so desire. You seem to like to argue, even if your argument does not support your final position. You may even be right and I wrong in certain aspects, but my point is simple: Dubai isn't going to be the busiest airport in the world. Ever.

Actually, I think that Udo has handed your ass to you on a plate more than once in this thread... you seem to like to bicker and instigate just for the hell of it... pretty immature.

And as we've stated, although there is the chance this could all fall apart (or never see the light of day), the opportunities FAR outweigh the risk. Take off your blinders for a moment and think a little. Remember, there is a world outside of the good ol' USA.
Bad spellers of the world... UNTIE!
 
JetMaster
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RE: Dubai To Become Busiest Airport In The World

Fri Nov 25, 2005 12:58 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 126):
Indian and Pacific oceans. It includes Indonesia, the Philippines, and *Malaysia.*

Tell me one source which refers to KUL as part of Oceania...and don't hurry in finding one - I have time!  Smile

Quoting D L X (Reply 126):
Now, I'd love to hear you say that Kuala Lumpur isn't in Malaysia.

It seems you are totally unable to deal with or realize geographic facts. Kuala Lumpur is part of Southeast Asia, period. If you like it or not.

Quoting D L X (Reply 126):
Aren't we childish today?

No, just correct. Would you tolerate when people repeatedly refer to the USA as USOA?

Quoting D L X (Reply 126):
Actually... seeing that I said that DXB *would* be a good connection point for Oceania, and that KUL is in Oceania, not only does it prove my point, but it's something I agree with you on. So why the hell are you arguing with me about it?!

You don't get it at all - probably you just don't want to. DXB is a perfect transit point for Asia, e.g. to CGK, KUL, MNL, from a wide range of European destinations. Journey times prove that and those can be checked easily on www.emirates.com. But it seems you are not interested in hard facts anyways...

Quoting D L X (Reply 126):
Okay Udo, you go build your superhub in Dubai funneling Athenians to Manila. Have fun.

Wait - who talked about being childish? ATH was one representative example for secondary international destinations in EK's network. Not my fault if you don't understand that.  embarrassed 

Quoting D L X (Reply 126):
It would be, but I don't think it will happen. EK currently serves no S. American cities. There's probably a reason for that.

Traffic rights and a lack of C-market aircraft. EK has repeatedly expressed its desire to serve South America.

Quoting D L X (Reply 126):
You seem to like to argue, even if your argument does not support your final position.

That's the funniest comment I have read on this forum for a long time...sounds like a statement by Baghdad Bob somehow.  biggrin 

Quoting D L X (Reply 126):
You may even be right and I wrong in certain aspects, but my point is simple: Dubai isn't going to be the busiest airport in the world. Ever.

Which I never said it would be...


Regards,
JM
The Journey is my Destination
 
Glareskin
Topic Author
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RE: Dubai To Become Busiest Airport In The World

Sat Nov 26, 2005 2:18 am

Quoting JetMaster (Reply 121):
And I have actually never said DXB would win the title. Though it will be one of the world's international mega hubs in the future. That's all.

 checkmark 

And if the ambitious plans come true it might even become the busiest. Don't forget that Europe and the US are powerful parts of the history of the world. The near future belongs to Asia and the Middle East and probably South America.
There's still a long way to go before all the alliances deserve a star...
 
brilondon
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RE: Dubai To Become Busiest Airport In The World

Sat Nov 26, 2005 9:10 am

Quoting United Airline (Reply 43):
the largest business/ financial centre is New York, followed by London, Hong Kong and Tokyo.

this is why DBX will not become the world's busiest airport.
Rush forever Closer To My Heart
 
Glareskin
Topic Author
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RE: Dubai To Become Busiest Airport In The World

Sat Nov 26, 2005 5:00 pm

Quoting Brilondon (Reply 132):
Quoting United Airline (Reply 43):
the largest business/ financial centre is New York, followed by London, Hong Kong and Tokyo.

this is why DBX will not become the world's busiest airport.

Come on you guys! Stop ignoring the fact that the centre of the world is moving towards asia.
There's still a long way to go before all the alliances deserve a star...
 
United Airline
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RE: Dubai To Become Busiest Airport In The World

Sat Nov 26, 2005 7:07 pm

Actually it's hard to define the centre of the world since the world is not flat but it's round.

I suppose USA and Europe will continue to lead the world.
 
Alessandro
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RE: Dubai To Become Busiest Airport In The World

Sat Nov 26, 2005 9:03 pm

Could Sharjah be included in those numbers, the airport is very close to Dubai airport if you compare it with Riyadh airport?
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
manni
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RE: Dubai To Become Busiest Airport In The World

Sat Nov 26, 2005 9:13 pm

Quoting United Airline (Reply 134):
I suppose USA and Europe will continue to lead the world.


I suppose some Americans and Europeans will continue to believe that they lead the world, I also believe that the amount of people who believe that no particular nation should pick up that role of leading the world will continue to grow, and that those people who believe that America and Europe lead, let alone, will coninue to lead the world will eventually be proofed wrong.  Yeah sure
 
Neo
Posts: 731
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RE: Dubai To Become Busiest Airport In The World

Sat Nov 26, 2005 9:23 pm

Quoting Brilondon (Reply 132):
Quoting United Airline (Reply 43):
the largest business/ financial centre is New York, followed by London, Hong Kong and Tokyo.

this is why DBX will not become the world's busiest airport.

ATL is nowhere near the biggest financial/business centers in the world and even then is the busiest airport in the world!! Why do you think that is??

Rgs,

Neo
 
EurostarVA
Posts: 1205
Joined: Thu May 16, 2002 12:24 am

RE: Dubai To Become Busiest Airport In The World

Sun Nov 27, 2005 12:53 am

Quoting United Airline (Reply 134):
I suppose USA and Europe will continue to lead the world.

I've been keeping an eye on this thread and your many posts. It seems that your thoughts mirror those of many others on this thread. We are all entitled to our own opinions and beliefs, but it seems you just need to think outside the bubble for a second.

Our world is fast changing...economies, demographics and trade patterns, among many others, change faster than you think. Look at the rise of Korea, Malaysia, and recently, China and Vietnam.

Our world is not as predictable as many believe. This being said, never say never.
If there is a will, there is a way
 
United Airline
Posts: 8971
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RE: Dubai To Become Busiest Airport In The World

Sun Nov 27, 2005 5:22 am

Quoting Neo (Reply 137):
ATL is nowhere near the biggest financial/business centers in the world and even then is the busiest airport in the world!! Why do you think that is??

ATL is a business centre but not as big as the major ones.

Nevertheless cities like SIN, HKG, LHR etc are both hubs and international business/financial centres and that will be an advantage to their positions as hubs.

Quoting Manni (Reply 136):
I suppose some Americans and Europeans will continue to believe that they lead the world, I also believe that the amount of people who believe that no particular nation should pick up that role of leading the world will continue to grow, and that those people who believe that America and Europe lead, let alone, will coninue to lead the world will eventually be proofed wrong.



Quoting EurostarVA (Reply 138):
Our world is fast changing...economies, demographics and trade patterns, among many others, change faster than you think. Look at the rise of Korea, Malaysia, and recently, China and Vietnam.

According to different researches, growing economies such as China and India still lack far behind Europe and USA and it will at least 30-50 years for them to catch up, if ever. So let's just wait and see.

Quoting EurostarVA (Reply 138):
I've been keeping an eye on this thread and your many posts. It seems that your thoughts mirror those of many others on this thread. We are all entitled to our own opinions and beliefs, but it seems you just need to think outside the bubble for a second.

True

Quoting EurostarVA (Reply 138):
Our world is not as predictable as many believe. This being said, never say never.

True. Thanks for your opinion.

Regards.
 
sllevin
Posts: 3314
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 1:57 pm

RE: Dubai To Become Busiest Airport In The World

Sun Nov 27, 2005 5:46 am

Quoting JetMaster (Reply 130):
You don't get it at all - probably you just don't want to. DXB is a perfect transit point for Asia, e.g. to CGK, KUL, MNL, from a wide range of European destinations.

IMO, that's exactly why I think it will NOT end up being as critical.

Smaller aircraft like the A350 and the 787 are going to lead to more and more overflying of 'transit hubs.'

More and more flights from India and China, for example, will go direct to their destination.

Sure, there will be a number of flights that DO transit, but the assumption that DXB will become THE airport is trying to apply past history to future patterns.

Steve
 
cloudy
Posts: 1613
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RE: Dubai To Become Busiest Airport In The World

Mon Nov 28, 2005 9:03 am

Quoting Sllevin (Reply 140):
Smaller aircraft like the A350 and the 787 are going to lead to more and more overflying of 'transit hubs.'

More and more flights from India and China, for example, will go direct to their destination.

The fragmentation theory does not predict a large increase in point to point flying. You won't be able to fly direct from Berlin to Perth. Notice that almost all many new supposed "point to point" routes have a major hub on one end - Chicago to Manchester and Berlin to New York for example. Even if everything Boeing says comes true, there will still be very few direct long haul flights between non-hub cities. You won't see direct flights between Berlin and Sapporo, for example.

What the fragmentation theory does predict is a decrease in the number of connections required. For example, to fly from Berlin to Ho Chi Minh City now you probably would need to connect in BOTH Europe and Asia. If fragmentation happens for Asia-Europe as it has happened over the Atlantic, in the future you would need only ONE connection.

Only when you take a long haul flight between a hub city on one continent and a non-hub city on another continent is fragmentation helping you obtain a direct flight.

Fragmentation does not mean the end of hubs. Most flights will still be hub-based. It does mean an overall reduction in the number of connections, and it may make some hubs more important in the future and other hubs less important. The addition of more long haul, low capacity flights may actually increase the importance of some hubs - particularily those well suited to serve a large number of longhaul routes with a single connection. I would put Dubai in that catagory.

Dubai is especially well suited for the long haul hub role because it is not flooded with local shorthaul traffic like many European and American hubs are. Also, it has more expansion room and lower costs. It also does not have the kind of NIMBY problems Europe, the US and parts of Asia have.
 
cloudyapple
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RE: Dubai To Become Busiest Airport In The World

Tue Nov 29, 2005 12:47 am

I can't believe the naivete of some of the posts. Dubai is being used by Emirates as a hub. As proven, hub and spokes do work and emirates is exploiting this concept to the extreme. For your average limping American legacy the catchment for each of their hubs may be a circle up to 3hrs from the hub but for emirates it's up to 10 hrs! They're able to fly from the tiniest little city (like Glasgow :P) to dubai and then fly people on to any other tiniest little city (like Perth :P). Profitably. Because on each of these flights there are as many final destinations as there are passengers on board... All funneled through Dubai.

On the cost side they have the economy of scale and getting bigger drives down unit cost even further. This is reflected onto the ticket cost. You'll see their ticket price go down by the year compared to their competitors. Price is the prime driver for most of their traffic. If the trend continues they'll be able to open and exploit a new low cost longhual segment (new traffic). With comparable to outstanding service they can't go wrong.

Whereas Emirates can easily pinch customers from others (on any Asia/Europe, Asia/Africa, Africa/Oz, Africa/US, India/Europe, India/US routes). No one has the geographical advantage to do the reverse. (Well except Ethihad and Qatar (Gulfair is too weak))

They are the one to watch for the next 10/15 years.

[Edited 2005-11-28 17:00:26]
A310/A319/20/21/A332/3/A343/6/A388/B732/5/7/8/B742/S/4/B752/B763/B772/3/W/E145/J41/MD11/83/90
 
sllevin
Posts: 3314
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 1:57 pm

RE: Dubai To Become Busiest Airport In The World

Tue Nov 29, 2005 5:41 am

Quoting Cloudy (Reply 141):
Even if everything Boeing says comes true, there will still be very few direct long haul flights between non-hub cities. You won't see direct flights between Berlin and Sapporo, for example.

That's why I was referring to 'transit hubs.' I agree, it's not a well-defined term, and I'm not helping  Smile What I mean by a 'transit hub' is where the incoming and outgoing flights are more or less equal in numbers. Singapore serves as a good example for flights ex-Oceania. Lots of heavy metal from Austalia flies in, and then flies out. Yes, there's some interchange of passengers for their onwards destination, but you don't see the downgauging of flights to A320's in Singapore.

This is compared to LH's large Frankfurt hub. Our example passenger travelling from Sapporo to Berlin changes from his A350 to an A319 in Frankfurt for the final leg. This is what Dubai cannot provide nearly as effectively -- the ability to 'break down' an incoming longhaul flight into a bunch of smaller flights to the smaller cities. DXB is simply too far from most of Europe to even break down flights to narrowbodies, much less any regional aircraft.

Right now, only major cities have long-haul service to hubs. But in the fiture, even medium size cities will have 'core hub' service, and what I call 'transit hubs' will not grow nearly as much as overall travel.

Steve
 
longhaulheavy
Posts: 376
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RE: Dubai To Become Busiest Airport In The World

Tue Nov 29, 2005 7:08 am

Will Emirates offer flights from one side of the airport to the other?
 
LOT767-300ER
Posts: 8526
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RE: Dubai To Become Busiest Airport In The World

Tue Nov 29, 2005 11:06 am

Quoting CHI787ORD (Reply 79):
Quoting RedChili (Reply 38):
Chicago and Denver are really located in the middle of nowhere. Less than 500 million people live in North America, and North America is a very isolated continent. In comparison, Dubai is smack in the middle of Asia, Africa and Europe, where you have 80 percent of the world's population.

Your concept of Human Geography and socioeconomics is far below par my son.

Go check your figures on WHICH airport has the most movements in the world.

Now go and check and get back to me when you check why a city smaller than 1 million people in the Southeast USA has the largest airport in terms of pax. Even a bigger middle of nowhere...

Quoting Longhaulheavy (Reply 144):
Will Emirates offer flights from one side of the airport to the other?

I heard Great Lakes is trying to get this gig  Silly
 
EurostarVA
Posts: 1205
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RE: Dubai To Become Busiest Airport In The World

Tue Nov 29, 2005 2:58 pm

Quoting Sllevin (Reply 143):
This is what Dubai cannot provide nearly as effectively -- the ability to 'break down' an incoming longhaul flight into a bunch of smaller flights to the smaller cities. DXB is simply too far from most of Europe to even break down flights to narrowbodies, much less any regional aircraft.

And who said most passengers prefer to fly a 10-hr flight and then connect onto a 50 minute hop, when you can break the journey down into 2, more manageable legs of 5-8 hours each?

I think the bottom line of this thread is that it is only the passengers (the market) who will eventually determine the potential size of a Dubai superhub. Questions of flight convenience, city-pair possibilities, fares, stop-over tourism potential, duty free shopping and marketing, will all play a big factor.
Emirates' unit costs will continue to fall as they build-up capacity, at a time other carriers are cutting it. Eventually, the fares will be the most important driving force of sustained growth at Emirates.

I disagree with some of the above hypotheses that an airport cannot become a global hub just because it lacks the home-grown market. Look at Amsterdam Schiphol....how many KLM passengers actually proceed to immigration following the arrival of their long haul flights? I don't have the exact numbers but something tells me it isn't much at all compared to the whole picture. And Amsterdam is certainly no New York, London, Tokyo or Hong Kong.
If there is a will, there is a way
 
FCYTravis
Posts: 1172
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RE: Dubai To Become Busiest Airport In The World

Tue Nov 29, 2005 4:38 pm

Amsterdam is conveniently located in the midst of the European Union, with major destination airports an hour or so away - MUC, FRA, LHR/LCY, CDG, MXP, etc. etc. etc. Thus, its location as a connecting hub is fairly good.

Dubai is not well-placed to connect the *majority* of today's international air traffic, which is transatlantic or transpacific. It is not horribly placed for EU-Asia traffic, but its placement is no great advantage either.
USAir A321 service now departing for SFO with fuel stops in CAK, COS and RNO. Enjoy your flight.
 
EurostarVA
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Joined: Thu May 16, 2002 12:24 am

RE: Dubai To Become Busiest Airport In The World

Tue Nov 29, 2005 7:08 pm

Quoting FCYTravis (Reply 147):
Dubai is not well-placed to connect the *majority* of today's international air traffic, which is transatlantic or transpacific.

That's correct, you said it 'today'. This thread is about the future, ie: the next two or three decades.

Quoting FCYTravis (Reply 147):
It is not horribly placed for EU-Asia traffic, but its placement is no great advantage either.

Do you mean location? How on earth could it not be a great advantage?
If there is a will, there is a way
 
FCYTravis
Posts: 1172
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2005 4:21 am

RE: Dubai To Become Busiest Airport In The World

Tue Nov 29, 2005 7:39 pm

Because EU-Asia traffic today is well-served by non-stops?

It would be like starting a connecting hub in Bermuda. Fine, so it's sort of on the way between the US and the EU. But there's so many non-stops between the two places now anyway that nobody's going to want to connect in the middle of the Atlantic.

Nobody is denying that Dubai is likely to grow rapidly. But even in "two or three decades" it will not be the world's busiest airport because it will not have domestic US traffic, nor will it ever have connecting traffic from more than one airline.

The two busiest airports in the world are two-airline domestic hubs. Even thirty years from now, DXB will have only international connecting service, connecting only from one airline at a location that is not in the busiest international air corridors or an O&D destination on even the level of AMS.

We can start having this thread when DXB beats out PHL, YYZ or SEA for the title of World's 30th-Busiest Airport.

[Edited 2005-11-29 11:42:21]

[Edited 2005-11-29 11:45:35]
USAir A321 service now departing for SFO with fuel stops in CAK, COS and RNO. Enjoy your flight.

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