You Want To See A Real Biiiiig Airport...

RayChuang · Mon Nov 28, 2005 11:38 am

I think people here are totally missing the point of Dubai's new airport.

All of you folks are forgetting your Middle Eastern history--that part of the world has always been involved in goods trade from the earliest ancient times due to its location being literally the crossroads of Eurasia. Pre-Muslim Arab traders were already well-involved in shipping goods between Europe and China (the western end of the famous Silk Road was in the Middle East), because of all that trade when Islam became prominent it spread just as fast by trade as by conquest (the Islamic missionaries and merchant traders were probably one and the same in many cases).

Today, the United Arab Emirates realize that they must prepare for a post-oil economy, so it comes naturally that learning from their ancient history they are creating a massive trading crossroads in the UAE at Abu Dhabi, Dubai and Sharjah. SHJ is already one of the biggest cargo airports in the world, and could grow even bigger in the future; the new DXB airport will cater to the fact Dubai will soon become the financial center of the entire Middle East.

777ER · Mon Nov 28, 2005 1:06 pm

Now that would be heaven for plane spotting, thou the question is which area of the airport?

speedbird128 · Mon Nov 28, 2005 2:43 pm

Quoting Rdwelch (Reply 46):
With an airport or rather "worldport" of this size, can you imagine the spotting possibilities?

Quoting 777ER (Reply 51):
Now that would be heaven for plane spotting, thou the question is which area of the airport?

Hate to break it to you - photographing aircraft (unless you'll be discreetly spotting without equipment) isn't that welcome here, and will most probably end in an escorted trip (probably not in your vehicle either) to the local copshop for a little chat... And removal of your film or equivalent...

Unless things change in the future that is...

lightsaber · Mon Nov 28, 2005 2:48 pm

Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):
First runway finished,second on the run...

Wow, nothing like getting a head start.

First, I absolutely love the huge area set aside for business jets.

Did anyone else notice the huge row of hotels leading up to the airport? Geesh... And I thought going down Century blvd to LAX was a gauntlet!

Oh, I'll also buy lunch for the first a.netter to get a photo of a jet stuck in any of those huge sand pits between taxi-ways and runways! bigthumbsup

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 50):

Today, the United Arab Emirates realize that they must prepare for a post-oil economy, so it comes naturally that learning from their ancient history they are creating a massive trading crossroads in the UAE at Abu Dhabi, Dubai and Sharjah. SHJ is already one of the biggest cargo airports in the world, and could grow even bigger in the future; the new DXB airport will cater to the fact Dubai will soon become the financial center of the entire Middle East.

RayChuang, I totally agree with you. Dubai has every intent of being on the world's economic map in a big way.

Lightsaber

jbmflyer · Mon Nov 28, 2005 3:10 pm

Quoting Glom (Reply 32):
Quoting BG777300ER (Reply 30):
First, they are all facing the same way, which could mean planes crossing each others paths on takeoff.

The idea is the exact opposite. It keeps the traffic flow orderly.

Quoting BG777300ER (Reply 30):
Also, isn't it good to have runways facing different directions (crosswind and stuff..yeah).

Aircraft today can handle huge crosswinds and if anything is that bad, aircraft shouldn't really be flying at all.

For wind analysis, airports are designated a reference code, based on the critical aircrafts approach speed and wingspan (critical aircraft is the aircraft that performs an average of 500 itinerant operations per year). The code then determines the max crosswind component. If they follow FAA rules then they MUST have a runway that the design aircraft can land on for at least 95% of the annual wind conditions.

Good observation! If air traffic of departures and arrivals at Jebel Ali flows particularly in one direction, it will be easier to handle it, with only two particular points of interception.
How many simultaneous take-off and landing would it be possible there?

again IF they are using similar rules to the FAA then
< 700 ft. No Separation Only runway usable at a time
700-2500 ft close seperation VFR simultaneous use, IFR only 1 usable

2500-4300 ft Intermediate seperation VFR simultaneous use, IFR one for takeoffs one for landings

>4300 ft Far separation VFR and IFR simultaneous use

It looks like a simple, albeit large airside landside concept airport. There is going to be one hell of an underground transport system needed to support that many pax and that many terminals. that used in conjunction with a decently quick APM system could keep the transfer times manageable. Baggage on the other hand is an entirely different story. Perhaps a centralized sorting facility and then an underground rail system similar to the pax system could get bags to planes. lots and lots and lots of infrastructure.

I wonder if those looped taxiways meet FAA part 77 requirements. security needs for that airport are going to be insane. I cant imagine how many card swipers, cameras, and controlled access points are going to be needed.

Airport safety and runway inspections are going to be ridiculous, checking the lights, checking for FOD and more importantly checking the integrity of the fence probably wont be fun. Probably need at least 30 people to do that every day. should be fun to fly in there though if you get the chance.

IL76 · Mon Nov 28, 2005 3:27 pm

...and people complain that 18R-36L ("Polderbaan") at AMS is such a crazy long taxi from the terminal. I wonder how long you need to taxi over there to find your parkingspot... crazy

sunandan · Mon Nov 28, 2005 5:34 pm

If all 6 runways are parallel, how will they be labelled??? I can figure that 3 of them will be labelled (suppose) 1L, 1C and 1R. What about the other 3???

Sunandan

BBJII · Mon Nov 28, 2005 6:30 pm

Looks like the airport is bigger than the UAE. !!!!!!

Just imagine....a spotters paradise during peak times....just think if every gate was taken at the same time...............

Someone please point out they forgot a veiwing park and terrace...... Silly

Looks impressive though Smile

EI747SYDNEY · Mon Nov 28, 2005 6:54 pm

Now why did I have a feeling that it was going to be somewhere in the Middle East when I seen this thread.

Rob wave

atco2b · Mon Nov 28, 2005 7:01 pm

Quoting B742 (Reply 5):
Pathetic, look at how small it is

I agree! Those people are taller! Wink

malaysia · Mon Nov 28, 2005 7:33 pm

Quoting Speedbird128 (Reply 52):
Hate to break it to you - photographing aircraft (unless you'll be discreetly spotting without equipment) isn't that welcome here, and will most probably end in an escorted trip (probably not in your vehicle either) to the local copshop for a little chat... And removal of your film or equivalent...

yeah, my friend who is a Qatar Airways F/A was surprised seeing all the snapshots of my tarmac and work with my cell phone and some digicam photos I showed her while on her leave, she said back in Doha, you are not allowed to take photos at airports at all and will get in big trouble.

hodja · Mon Nov 28, 2005 7:39 pm

Quoting Sunandan (Reply 56):
If all 6 runways are parallel, how will they be labelled??? I can figure that 3 of them will be labelled (suppose) 1L, 1C and 1R. What about the other 3???

Usually it's offset to the next 10 degs, so: 2R, 2L, 2C

Eirjet · Mon Nov 28, 2005 8:01 pm

Wow that is one big airport - I hope the architects have allowed some facilities for photgraphers and spotters.

Eirjet

airforum · Mon Nov 28, 2005 8:09 pm

Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 22):
Hope they never have any crosswinds there...

That's why they want so many parallel runways, there's always a runway next to yours.

Wink

Quoting Sunandan (Reply 56):
If all 6 runways are parallel, how will they be labelled??? I can figure that 3 of them will be labelled (suppose) 1L, 1C and 1R. What about the other 3???

1A, 1B, 1C, 1D, 1E, 1F. "Emirates 243, what are you doing on runway 1B? I said you were cleared to land on runway 1D!"

[Edited 2005-11-28 12:10:23]

brokenrecord · Mon Nov 28, 2005 9:24 pm

Quoting Airforum (Reply 63):
1A, 1B, 1C, 1D, 1E, 1F. "Emirates 243, what are you doing on runway 1B? I said you were cleared to land on runway 1D!"

Although incorrect, that is absolutely hilarious!

AdamTStarFlyer · Mon Nov 28, 2005 10:34 pm

That is one awesome airport with a phenomenal capacity!!Hope i get to visit it one day!
So who will be the first scheduled carrier to start the flights from one side of the airport to the other and what will it cost?!?Because there is no way a train will get you from one side to the other in under a day! Only kidding!

As i said looks awesome though!

Adam

A350 · Mon Nov 28, 2005 10:34 pm

I hope they will work a bit more on the terminals. They don't look very interesting here, and I wouldn't like to walk 10km in a tunnel to get to the gate Wink

A350

joshdean · Mon Nov 28, 2005 11:32 pm

Quoting B742 (Reply 5):
When will Jebel Ali Airport be finished?

Having glanced through this, nobody has actually answered it. The link below this quote is broken. Any ideas???

Glareskin · Mon Nov 28, 2005 11:43 pm

Quoting A350 (Reply 66):
I hope they will work a bit more on the terminals. They don't look very interesting here

Looks interesting to me..... Looks like a special widebody terminal. Could have a sign A380 / A340 / 777 only. Wink

A319XFW · Mon Nov 28, 2005 11:48 pm

Imagine taxying from one end to the other...........
It'd be quicker to fly Big grin

Quoting ModernArt (Reply 18):
That's what the 787 will do...overfly these concrete montrosities.

Until
A) EK buys 787
or
B) You want to fly there from DFW

Boogyjay · Mon Nov 28, 2005 11:54 pm

Quoting Glareskin (Reply 68):
Looks interesting to me...

Looks terribly like CDG 2E to me:

Hope they didn't hire Paul Andreu, the architect of the terminal 2E...

Glareskin · Tue Nov 29, 2005 12:15 am

Quoting BoogyJay (Reply 70):
Looks terribly like CDG 2E to me

You are right. But it is still interesting...

Quoting BoogyJay (Reply 70):
Hope they didn't hire Paul Andreu, the architect of the terminal 2E...

LOL
Biggest aircraft orders, biggest airport, biggest disaster......... Big grin

fraspotter · Tue Nov 29, 2005 12:30 am

Quoting Wingman (Reply 6):
just take me directly to my destination please.

And what, take all the fun out of it? Wink

Boogyjay · Tue Nov 29, 2005 12:30 am

Quoting Glareskin (Reply 71):
You are right. But it is still interesting...

Yes, seeing 10s of A380s around a single terminal would be quite a sight on its own. Now, an arch-type terminal is an elegant and stylish architecture that would make this view even more interesting.

What will the terminals made from? Reinforced concrete? Metallic structure?

N328KF · Tue Nov 29, 2005 12:36 am

Quoting Glareskin (Reply 68):
Looks interesting to me..... Looks like a special widebody terminal. Could have a sign A380 / A340 / 777 only.

Quoting BoogyJay (Reply 70):
Hope they didn't hire Paul Andreu, the architect of the terminal 2E...

For what it's worth, Andreu designed T3 at DXB, which also underwent a collapse. That design in Glareskin's post does look like Andreu's work, but notice that it has supports in the middle. That's a change from previous Andreu designs.

[Edited 2005-11-28 16:39:19]

USADreamliner · Tue Nov 29, 2005 12:37 am

Everything is bigger in Texas...

But everything is huge in Dubai! weightlifter

USAdreamliner wave

fraspotter · Tue Nov 29, 2005 12:50 am

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 33):
One thing I wonder is how stable is Dubai? We are talking about the middle east here.

You've never been there have you?...
I went last year and by what I saw, the UAE is the most western country in the middle east. PLEASE don't get that stereotypical thought in your mind that it must be dangerous JUST because it's in the region where a lot of the trouble spots are (Iraq, Iran, Jordan, Syria)! The UAE is considered by many to be the best undiscovered treasure around... Not all, but many people (especially Americans) don't want to travel to the region because they here too much stuff in the news that the "middle east" region is "dangerous". Ok, Iraq, Yemen, Oman and a few others you might not want to go to (I've been to Oman and loved it) but the UAE is anything BUT dangerous... We heard by many people while my family was there that there are too many police and not enough criminals....

Glareskin · Tue Nov 29, 2005 12:59 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 74):
That's a change from previous Andreu designs.

Very good observation! Probably the size of the terminal that is shown on the scale model on the picture is larger than the ones we know from Paris. So I suspect the supports are not for safety reasons only.

teva · Tue Nov 29, 2005 1:21 am

about the stability of DXB, just remember why Hitler never invaded Switzerland:
It is not because of neutrality. Other countries have been invaded. It is because you never attack your bank.
DXB banking system makes it a kind of Switzerland for the middle east.
So, DXB will be stable for qute some time (of course, never say never... but..)

About the indoor ski complex, it opens Dec 2.
Teva

zvezda · Tue Nov 29, 2005 1:32 am

Don't worry about the distance between terminals when connecting. There will be air service to connect them. Big grin

jacobin777 · Tue Nov 29, 2005 1:37 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 79):
Don't worry about the distance between terminals when connecting. There will be air service to connect them.

i hope so because nothing is worse than having to walk a million miles in an airport...DXB right now isn't so bad..

.......that being said, AA's T-3 at ORD is a lot worse.....especially when one arrives at the farthest gate at the H or K concourse and then collecting luggage at carousel #1.....talk about walking.... Sad

jbmflyer · Tue Nov 29, 2005 1:50 am

I doubt walking between them will be a problem, and for most, not even an option. It would appear that most are simple unit, airside landside, and pier finger layout terminals, more than likely I would expect to see some sort of APM that moves you around inside the terminal akin to Detroit. Perhaps that is what is inbetween the support structure in the middle of the terminal. Building the underground APM area would be incredibly challenging if you ask me. The amount of support for those runways, ramps and taxiways that will be displaced will be significant and the support structure will have to be immense. I cant imagine how many tunnels will have to be put it if they use that system to access all parts of the airport from all the terminals. perhaps a central terminal area under the center somewhere like Penn station or Grand Central in NYC.

n757kw · Tue Nov 29, 2005 2:07 am

Well, there use to be a saying that to get to heaven or hell you had to transit Atlanta. Now when the new airport opens in Dubai, to get to heaven or hell you will have to transit Dubai. Silly

N757KW

skoorb · Tue Nov 29, 2005 2:26 am

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 8):
It has to be at least .... three times that size!

For a long time I've been reading these forums, wondering what would finally prompt me to cough up the registration fee. Then tonight, after seeing your post, crumpled in a ball on my apartment floor, sides aching and giggling like a schoolgirl, it all became clear. I had to sign up, and tell you that I haven't had a laugh that good in a long while. Thanks for brightening my day. Big grin

I must say that the Jebel Ali airport sure is looking impressive. When I first looked at it I didn't even recognise that the runways were there, for how small they look. It really is good to see that some truly ambitious investment and development is still happening somewhere in the world.

bomber996 · Tue Nov 29, 2005 2:31 am

Quoting Skoorb (Reply 83):
I must say that the Jebel Ali airport sure is looking impressive. When I first looked at it I didn't even recognise that the runways were there, for how small they look. It really is good to see that some truly ambitious investment and development is still happening somewhere in the world.

Imagine how hard its gona be for the pilots. Hell, its gona be easier to see at night then day unless they put up some huge lighted sign that says, "36L" with big arrows pointing at the runway.

Peace box

skoorb · Tue Nov 29, 2005 2:54 am

Quoting Bomber996 (Reply 84):
Imagine how hard its gona be for the pilots. Hell, its gona be easier to see at night then day unless they put up some huge lighted sign that says, "36L" with big arrows pointing at the runway.

In this day and age, with instrument guidance, GPS, and all manner of whiz-bangery, will that really be such an issue? As long as the horizontal seperation between the runways is adequate it should be easy enough for pilots to identify the correct runway for them to be landing on.

That said, it may prove interesting though as most other large airports with parallel runways usually some some distinguishing features like length and relative positioning to clearly identify them. With 6 runways all parallel, identical in length and in a flat, largely featureless environment human error could come in to play. I guess time will tell.

AirEMS · Tue Nov 29, 2005 3:42 am

Denver has some long taxi ways... I love the sign that says:

WELCOME TO NEBRASKA

Boeing Nut · Tue Nov 29, 2005 3:52 am

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 36):
Looks like an ATL knockoff to me

And the problem with that is.................... cheeky

Quoting PyroGX41487 (Reply 49):
Omigod. If you guys don't need a towl by now, I sure do... that is the A380 of all airports...

More like the An-225 of airports!

Aloha717200 · Tue Nov 29, 2005 4:08 am

Now that's what I call an airport.

lightsaber · Tue Nov 29, 2005 6:38 am

Quoting BoogyJay (Reply 70):

Hope they didn't hire Paul Andreu, the architect of the terminal 2E...

Quoting N328KF (Reply 74):
That design in Glareskin's post does look like Andreu's work, but notice that it has supports in the middle. That's a change from previous Andreu designs.

The weak part of the oval design is easily compensated by the columns. If terminal 2E at CDG had columns, the design would have been under so little stress it would have lasted forever.

But isn't that the terminal for the existing DXB airport? I hope the ATL like terminals shown in the model are built a little more interesting than the boxes shown. Although, I do like the large windows depicted...

Ok, with one "sand pit" on each end of a runway (notice how each runway is centered on the sand pits?), I do not think there will be much confusion. If a label for each runway were put into the sand pits, it would make navigation easy!

Quoting Bomber996 (Reply 84):
Hell, its gona be easier to see at night then day unless they put up some huge lighted sign that says, "36L" with big arrows pointing at the runway.

I was thinking a hedge in each sand pit... spin

You see... "I demand a shrubbery!" (apologies to Monte Python)

Ok, Vegas has to step up to the plate and build Ivanpah on this scale! bigthumbsup

Ok, only a dream...

Does anyone have a link to the runway spacing, etc. of this airport?

Lightsaber

Newark777 · Tue Nov 29, 2005 11:50 pm

Quoting Skoorb (Reply 83):
For a long time I've been reading these forums, wondering what would finally prompt me to cough up the registration fee. Then tonight, after seeing your post, crumpled in a ball on my apartment floor, sides aching and giggling like a schoolgirl, it all became clear. I had to sign up, and tell you that I haven't had a laugh that good in a long while. Thanks for brightening my day.

Glad I could be of service. Big grin

Harry

yak42 · Wed Nov 30, 2005 2:03 am

Quoting FRAspotter (Reply 76):
JUST because it's in the region where a lot of the trouble spots are (Iraq, Iran, Jordan, Syria)! The UAE is considered by many to be the best undiscovered treasure around...

Dubai! undiscovered treasure!!?....... undiscovered by who? where have you been!? Dubai is well and truly discovered.
Iraq is the only real qualified trouble spot on your list although there are more in the area, and Jordan despite recent hotel attacks definately isnt one.
This looks massive! I hope it can be realised.

yak42 · Wed Nov 30, 2005 2:31 am

Its amazing how much Dubai has changed since the late sixties. I found a page that shows you what it was like then. They had to chase the wild donkeys away before a plane could be given permission to land at the airport(sand strip).

http://www.harrys-stuff.com/arab-gulf-dubai/dubai.php

airbazar · Wed Nov 30, 2005 2:46 am

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 14):
All of this frantic expansion for EK and Dubai. Is it just me or does anyone else see it as way too much way too quickly? Can they possibly ever hope to maximize usage of all of EK's jumbos and this new gigantic airport?

Seems about right for a "coutry" that's about to run out of Oil and wants to build as much infrasturcture as they still have money to pay for, so people will continue to come and spend money for many years to come.

As for the airport, it's not huge, if you take into consideration the next 20-30 years. 6 runways? we have a few airports like that today. 300 gates may seem like a lot today but in 20 years, who knows.

Neo · Wed Nov 30, 2005 3:52 am

BY THE WAY........

WHEN WILL IT BE FINISHED????

Rgs,

Neo

RICARIZA · Wed Nov 30, 2005 5:30 am

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 8):
It has to be at least .... three times that size!

hilarious!!!

aa61hvy · Wed Nov 30, 2005 5:34 am

DFW is the size of Manhattan Island, DEN is also huge. That just seems overkill. Does DXB expect to get that much traffic to utilize all that room?

jbmflyer · Wed Nov 30, 2005 3:03 pm

not many airport planners are lucky enough to get to work with a "green" field like that with that much open space. The things you could do are incredible. I wonder if they plan on expanding the number of runways, looks like there is only one side they could do that on.

N766UA · Wed Nov 30, 2005 3:22 pm

What in the heck is the point of the taxiways looping around behind the runways? They lead nowhere! By the time you'd taxi around you might as well just wait for the arriving aircraft to clear.

rdwelch · Wed Nov 30, 2005 3:30 pm

We need a couple of championship golf courses there. Oh, and a skeet shooting field...uh, nevermind, strike that. On a better note, I was in the Persian Gulf (Khalij-e Fars) in the mid 80's for the "military" and I can remember the southern gulf region, and I should have known better than to suggest that we do some "plane spotting" out there. Sorry Speedbird128, my bad. Gus.

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