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sabenapilot
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RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Wed Nov 30, 2005 2:48 am

Go and check the technical forum, I am sure you will find several topics dealing in detail with the GEnx or the Trend 1000/1700 and what it is that will make these 2 engines so much more efficient than current engines....

To help you off in easy wording:
The GE90 is a massive engine, with a huge fan, thus requiring quite a powerful turbine to power it... neither the GEnx nor the Trend 1000 have a combustion section which comes anywhere near a power section able to provide the turbine with the amount of required energy.

On the other hand, the Trend 500 has a much smaller fan than the GE90 and thus the new Trend 1000 combustion section can be fitted to it; the turbine will need some rework to cope with the increased bypass ratio of the fan (from roughly 6 to 9) because of the smaller size of the Trend 1000 core and already this is challenging, but seems RR has deemed this to be still possible somehow!
 
sabenapilot
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RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Wed Nov 30, 2005 2:53 am

Quoting N79969 (Reply 49):
I think history shows that Airbus and Boeing do all they can to deprive the other of orders and thus revenue.

It's called competition, I don't think you can be against it, can you?

Quoting N79969 (Reply 49):
I would be extremely surprised if Airbus did not show customers, at least in concept, ways that the 346 will be improved and be a better value than the Boeing. I think important customers probably heard about this before Flight International.

Maybe, maybe not...
But at present the plane is NOT offered, so even if a customer would want to order it, he CAN'T, and it really isn't Airbus which will decide on the date of launch, it is RR.
Anyway, If the A340-600Enhanced is launched, it will be available only after 2011... just how many of those latest orders Boeing recently logged are to be delivered as from 2012 and later???
 
N79969
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RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Wed Nov 30, 2005 3:11 am

Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 51):
It's called competition, I don't think you can be against it, can you?

Of course not. Although many in the Airbus camp decry the very practice I describe as they do not view it as "competition."

Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 51):
But at present the plane is NOT offered, so even if a customer would want to order it, he CAN'T, and it really isn't Airbus which will decide on the date of launch, it is RR.
Anyway, If the A340-600Enhanced is launched, it will be available only after 2011... just how many of those latest orders Boeing recently logged are to be delivered as from 2012 and later???

You don't think Airbus can have airlines sign a piece of paper such as a Letter of Intent before product launch? Of course they can...
 
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Stitch
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RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Wed Nov 30, 2005 3:16 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 28):
One could argue both programs are mistakes. They are probably being done to protect a market segment, rather than to make large profits. They will probably both tie up critical resources such as design and flight test engineers that could be applied to next generation projects instead of respins of current generation projects

Why should Boeing just throw up their hands and say "well, if ya need more then 400 people, buy an A380"? And why should Airbus just throw up their hands and say "if ya need to carry between 300-400 people, buy a B777"?

They should not abandon a market segment if they can develop a product at a reasonable enough cost to confidently ensure both the return of the investment and a profit to boot.

There are enough B747 operators who don't need A380-sized equipment to make the B747-8 project worth the effort. And I believe there are enough A346 operators, as well as all-Airbus operators who need a larger plane, who could find a use for an A346E to make that project worth the effort. As noted, an A346E would have some overwater routing advantages for certain carriers because of no ETOPs issues. ETOPS-240 will eventually happen, just because it is in the interest of the three regulatory bodies (US/EU/JPN) to make it happen down the road, but until it does...

The B747-8 is not going to maul the A380 program, just as the A345E/A346E will not maul the B772LR and B773ER. As I noted in the other thread on this topic, I think the A345 program should just be axed, since I think even an A345E will be at a significant disadvantage to the B772LR, but the A346E could keep those all-Airbus operators that need a ULR-type plane a more viable option then the A345/A345E.

Quoting Amy (Reply 30):
What they might think however is that current A340 operators such as LH, SAA, IB etc. might be interested in a more economical version of the A340 to complement and maybe in some places replace their current fleet.

Bingo.

Quoting Amy (Reply 30):
The 767-400 has already been mentioned here and with good reason. So it only sold to two operators. So what? If it made Boeing some cash and kept these operators from going Airbus, good for them. Likewise, this A340E COULD stop current A340 customers from going Boeing.

And bingo again.

Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 44):
Its not like the A340-600Enhanced has been offered to any of the newest 777 customers!

I highly doubt Airbus suddenly pulled this plane out of their bums. Just as I highly doubt the B747-8 suddenly appeared out of thin air and a few cargo operators said "Wow! This is neat! I think we shall buy some!"

I am sure Airbus has been working very hard to match A350 tech to the A345 and A346 just as Boeing has been working very hard to add BSC and B787 tech to the B747 and probably to the B777, as well.

Just as Boeing floated the B745, B746, and B74X programs to gauge interest, Airbus is floating the A345E/A346E program to gauge interest. I expect the A345E to gain next to no interest, but the A346E should garner interest from some operators, as Amy and others have noted. Airbus will then continue to refine the design, working with the A350 project group and the customers, until it is refined to the point LH, VS, and a few others are impressed enough to place orders. It may be many years (almost a decade passed between the B745/B746 and B748 programs) before the A346E is formally launched, but I would not be surprised at all if it is and it lands deals with existing A346 operators.
 
Cruiser
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RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Wed Nov 30, 2005 3:22 am

Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 51):
But at present the plane is NOT offered, so even if a customer would want to order it, he CAN'T,

Don't kid yourself. If an airline (e.g. Emirates) came to Airbus to say what have you got, do you think that they would be stupid enough to say that they only have the A340-600HGW and to come back at a later time when they might be able to offer the A340-600E? Of course not. They will lay it down on the table and say "Do you want to launch it?"

These things happen in tandem, because if there is no interest, then there is no offering, and if there is no offering, then who cares if there is interest.

James
Leahy on Per Seat Costs: "Have you seen the B-2 fly-by at almost US$1bn a copy? It has only 2 seats!"
 
sabenapilot
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RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Wed Nov 30, 2005 3:34 am

Quoting N79969 (Reply 52):
Although many in the Airbus camp decry the very practice I describe as they do not view it as "competition."

Well, I probably won't surprise you by saying I definitely belong to the airbus camp, but unlike most this is not because of 'nationalistic reasons', it is because as an end user, I have been more charmed by their products than by those of Boeing. I also remain an aviation enthousiast however and I am the first to say Boeing have managed to finally fight back, which is good!
We do need competition if we ever want to fly other and more modern things than what we see on the ramps of airports now!
Remember, no A330.... no 787.....and no A350 either!
In 2010 we'd still be staring at a 767, thinking it is a modern piece of technology!

Quoting N79969 (Reply 52):
You don't think Airbus can have airlines sign a piece of paper such as a Letter of Intent before product launch? Of course they can...

Sure they can and they will most certainly try to do so before they announce the launch. However for that, they first have to make up their mind about it. The A340-600Enhanced IS possible and WOULD be on a par with the 773ER (from early calculations), but will they do it? It's a business decision with many implications. I am not EADS's CEO (and I hope to be 'better' than the average armchair A.net CEO) so who am I to judge???
 
GQfluffy
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RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Wed Nov 30, 2005 3:50 am

Quoting Amy (Reply 30):
Likewise, this A340E COULD stop current A340 customers from going Boeing.

True, but Airbus has already lost AC. And it looks like Emirates is a bit weary... Time will tell.
This isn't where I parked my car...
 
zvezda
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RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Wed Nov 30, 2005 3:53 am

Quoting NA (Reply 5):
Base price of an A346 is about 30 million bucks lower than the 773ER. You can buy a lot of fuel for that!

That might not be the case if one had to pay for the environmental damage.

Quoting TinkerBelle (Reply 4):
My take is, give it up Leahy boys and concentrate on making the A350 better.

I also would have thought that improving the A350 would have been a better approach.

Quoting N79969 (Reply 8):
Airbus also seems to assume that Boeing will stand still with respect to the B777

This is a low-cost program that will allow Airbus to capture some sales -- even if just with existing customers. Airbus don't have to sell many to cover the marginal development cost.

Quoting KrisYYZ (Reply 9):
the A340 in my opinion has no future, even if you give it new engines and new wings.

That remains to be seen. While the A340-500 is not competitive with the B777-200LR, the A340-600 is still somewhat competitive with the B777-300ER.

Quoting JetMaster (Reply 10):
Airbus has no choice but to enhance the A345/A346 because the A350 is not planned to compete with B772LR and B773ER.

Actually, Airbus has at least three choices:
1) enhance the A340,
2) entend the A350, and
3) develop an all-new aircraft from a clean sheet of paper, probably an all-composite twin with a larger fuselage diameter than the B777.

Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 13):
if Airbus can easily start with giving the A340 an equal fuel flow as its Boeing's competitor thanks to the much lower fuel burn of the next generation of medium thrust engines despite its higher Empty Operating Weight, lightens up the wing structure to reflex the reduced tank capacity needed AND incorporates A350 technology in the fuselage, the A340E seems to be an unbeatable product!

Competitive, yes. Unbeatable, no.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 16):
A very interesting historical development given that when Airbus first launched the A300, Boeing pooh pooh'd the whole wide-bodied twin concept.

Certainly, Airbus got this one right. The B787 is Boeing's admission of this 30 years later.

Quoting Mdsh00 (Reply 26):
It's Solnabo! You could put an "Airbus" logo on a turd and he would sing praises of it.

Look at it from Solnabo's perspective. If Airbus were to put their logo on a turd, Solnabo could reasonably expect it to be a very sweet turd.  Smile

Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 38):
I would be stunned if it would come close to even ONE billion.

I agree. Excluding the development cost of the engines, the development cost of the proposed program should be about half a billion EUR.
 
Cruiser
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RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Wed Nov 30, 2005 3:55 am

Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 55):
The A340-600Enhanced IS possible and WOULD be on a par with the 773ER (from early calculations), but will they do it?

It would be on par with todays' 773ER. Boeing will make the 773ER more efficient, but you are right in that it would lessen the current gap.

James
Leahy on Per Seat Costs: "Have you seen the B-2 fly-by at almost US$1bn a copy? It has only 2 seats!"
 
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Stitch
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RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Wed Nov 30, 2005 4:08 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 57):
Actually, Airbus has at least three choices:
1) enhance the A340,
2) entend the A350, and
3) develop an all-new aircraft from a clean sheet of paper, probably an all-composite twin with a larger fuselage diameter than the B777.

#1 makes sense to improve the A346E vis-a-vis the B773ER (and, to a more limited extent, the B772LR).

#2, while making it even more a threat to the B772ER, probably still would not adequately address the performance and payload advantages of the B772LR and B773ER.

#3 might very well threaten the A380 program if they develop a plane capable of carrying 450 people with even better economics then Boeing claims for the B747-8.
 
B2707SST
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RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Wed Nov 30, 2005 4:15 am

Don't forget that Boeing is proposing a light-weight cabin for QF's SYD-LHR 777-200LRs. This is supposed to include developments from the 787 program and could shave several thousand pounds off OEW. The amount of weight saved may depend on the greater proportion of premium seats on ULH routes, but the 773ER also has a larger cabin in which those savings could be realized.

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 40):
This plane has BRAND NEW wings (see my post on my thread "Airbus A350 the A340 part 2" for details + source(Jeff Peace, exec VP of 747 programme)

The 747-8 does not have a brand-new wing. There are substantial modifications, but when you read Jeff Peace's comment in context, it is clear that the underlying structure will not change:

“We left the [wing] planform and the location of the structure the same,” says Peace, to allow existing production tooling to be used. The 68.5m-span wing will incorporate new materials and thicker gauges and has also been “retwisted and relofted”, says Peace.

http://www.flightinternational.com/A...g+and+engines+key+to+design++.html

This sounds less ambitious than what Airbus is doing with the A350 wing and what Boeing proposed for the 747X/Stretch about five years ago, both of which involve recontouring the wing cross-section. However, it will be more extensive than the changes the -400 received (revised wing-body fairing, span extension, and winglet).

--B2707SST
Keynes is dead and we are living in his long run.
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Wed Nov 30, 2005 5:15 am

Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 38):
Okay, the A340-600Enhanced would also feature improved wing features and aluminium-litium fuselage, but since the later is identical to the A350 fuselage cross section, would not cost them a cent!

This statement is blatantly untrue. While the cross section and material may be the same as the A350, the A346E is much longer. Thus this change must be certified for the A346E. Even if the A350 and A346E were the same length, the difference in the wings and engines between the two airplanes would require a new certification fo the A346E. The Engineering and Certification costs of the A346E body material change will not add up to zero.

Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 45):
Expect small easy and relatively cheap changes to the GE90 every year or so, but don't expect anything from the sort of a brand new designer engine a la Trend1500 which is in fact a hybrid from the current Trend500 fan section, the Trend 1000 combustion section with an all new turbine section...

Matching core and fan is not the tinker toy exercise you are describing. It would be good if Lightsaber could produce a post on this topic.

In general, the main risks and costs for the A346E in its present form will be borne by RR. I hope they will be getting a proportionate share of any profits generated.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
astuteman
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RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Wed Nov 30, 2005 5:19 am

Quoting B2707SST (Reply 60):
“We left the [wing] planform and the location of the structure the same,” says Peace, to allow existing production tooling to be used. The 68.5m-span wing will incorporate new materials and thicker gauges and has also been “retwisted and relofted”, says Peace.

It's amazing what a bit of interpretation does for you.
It's the same shape looking from above, and fits to the aircraft in the same place - therefore it's not a new wing.

BUT, it's a different aerodynamic shape completely (re-twisted" + "re-lofted") from the original, (and has to be to clear a much larger engine), is made of new materials, all of the thicknesses have changed, and the majority of the moving surfaces, and their actuation have been completely redesigned.

So in actual fact, just about every component in this wing is NEW, including its overall shape (except, of course, when viewed from above).
Therefore - It's not a new wing?  Yeah sure

Oh, and BTW, the very same quoted Peace says quite defiantly that it IS definitely a new wing!

Readers, please vote now...........

Quoting Stitch (Reply 53):
Quoting Amy (Reply 30):
The 767-400 has already been mentioned here and with good reason. So it only sold to two operators. So what? If it made Boeing some cash and kept these operators from going Airbus, good for them. Likewise, this A340E COULD stop current A340 customers from going Boeing.

And bingo again

If there's one way this investment makes sense, it's in a strategic manner rather than pure profitability.
For a presumably limited outlay, they might at least maintain airbus continuity with some key customers, and perhaps even swing a few multi-class deals that otherwise would have gone 777/787
 
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glideslope
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RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Wed Nov 30, 2005 5:32 am

Quoting N79969 (Reply 11):
Airbus could be trapped now with the A340. They will need a better long term solution

Could be?

The 340 enhanced demonstates just that. Too little, WAY too late. Plus, who is going to believe their numbers?

The long term solution is being put off by the 350 project, and the endless redesigns of the 380. Let's not forget the need for the 320NG. This, plus the credibility problems spell rough seas ahead.
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
JetMaster
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RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Wed Nov 30, 2005 5:46 am

Quoting Glideslope (Reply 63):
and the endless redesigns of the 380.

Have I missed a few?


Regards,
JM
The Journey is my Destination
 
B2707SST
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RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Wed Nov 30, 2005 5:48 am

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 62):
Oh, and BTW, the very same quoted Peace says quite defiantly that it IS definitely a new wing!

No, he says it's an "essentially new wing," which is the same parlance Airbus uses to describe the A350's wing. Both are substantially modified, but neither is clean-sheet -- unlike the 737NG, for example.

If Boeing were truly going for a new wing, I'd expect to see Randy Baseler touting much larger fuel burn reductions, as well as fundamental changes in the wing's span (apart from the new wingtip treatment), aspect ratio, and cross-section. By "retwisting and relofting," I assume Peace means they are modifying the angle of incidence and dihedral at the wing-body join, probably for more engine clearance. The trailing-edge flaps will be new, but there is no mention of new leading-edge devices, control surfaces, spoilers, etc. -- whether trailing-edge flaps constitute "the majority of moving surfaces" is subject to interpretation. Peace also mentioned introducing new materials and thicker gauges, which often happen whenever a higher MTOW variant is introduced. These are not insignificant changes, but they do not constitute a brand-new wing.

This is not to dismiss the work Boeing is undertaking on the 747-8, but the program is a lot more conservative than the last two major 747 derivative attempts (747-500/600X, 747X/Stretch). A major cost driver in rewinging is the need for new tooling, and if Boeing can retain the existing 747 wing tooling and assembly processes, that will dramatically reduce the cost of the 747-8 compared to earlier proposals. Boeing's current market outlook does not support the substantially greater expenditures that would be needed to rewing the 747, introduce full FBW, swap in more composites, and so on.

--B2707SST

[Edited 2005-11-29 21:50:35]
Keynes is dead and we are living in his long run.
 
zvezda
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RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Wed Nov 30, 2005 6:11 am

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 62):
It's amazing what a bit of interpretation does for you.
It's the same shape looking from above, and fits to the aircraft in the same place - therefore it's not a new wing.

BUT, it's a different aerodynamic shape completely (re-twisted" + "re-lofted") from the original, (and has to be to clear a much larger engine), is made of new materials, all of the thicknesses have changed, and the majority of the moving surfaces, and their actuation have been completely redesigned.

So in actual fact, just about every component in this wing is NEW, including its overall shape (except, of course, when viewed from above).
Therefore - It's not a new wing? Yeah sure

Oh, and BTW, the very same quoted Peace says quite defiantly that it IS definitely a new wing!

Astuteman, here's what you're missing:
1) the structure of the wing i.e. the spar, webbing, etc. is unchanged, and
2) the tooling needed to make the wing is unchanged.

The aerodynamic features of the wing are nearly all revised, but that's not the expensive part. It would have been very expensive to abandon the tooling. Boeing are getting a lot of benefit from this level of wing redesign without a high development cost.
 
N79969
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RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Wed Nov 30, 2005 6:14 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 57):
This is a low-cost program that will allow Airbus to capture some sales -- even if just with existing customers. Airbus don't have to sell many to cover the marginal development cost.

That is a good point. There are only a handful of die-hards though: Lufthansa, Virgin, Iberia, and China Eastern. Will they need new and more A346 by 2011? Enough of them at the right price?
 
UAMAYBACH1239
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RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Wed Nov 30, 2005 6:18 am

Quoting JetMaster (Reply 10):
According to that logic, the B739ER would be a 38 year old design...

Correct but B is not having any trouble selling them or living up to perform the way it was promised.
 Cool
a/c flown 737-222/322/522 757/747-1-2-4, 767-2-3, 777-2-3, A319-20, DC10-10-30, L1011-3-5, 727-222adv, MD85-90 flyourfri
 
Hirnie
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RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Wed Nov 30, 2005 6:22 am

Seen from a passenger`s point of view I´d love to see a more competetive variant of the 340 so that more airlines choose it. I did a lot of trips on different airlines in different 777s and 340s. The 340 is by far the more comfortable aircraft for pax.
Seen from a technical point of view......hmm, I don`t have no idea about this project but it sounds good.

I wish A good luck with this project.

Btw I`m no Airbus-lover/hater and I´m no Boeing-lover/hater. I`m just an aviation enthusiast  praise 

Regards
 
astuteman
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RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Wed Nov 30, 2005 6:35 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 66):
Astuteman, here's what you're missing:
1) the structure of the wing i.e. the spar, webbing, etc. is unchanged, and
2) the tooling needed to make the wing is unchanged.

1) You don't know that - the forces acting on this wing are substantially different. The spars/webbing may be different thicknesses or different materials.

2) Definitely didn't miss that one, and quite right too! But it is entirely possible to have the whole wing re-designed in different thickness material/different material and still use the same tooling. And yet the whole wing could have been re-designed.
We designed the Astute submarine virtually new from the keel up, but it uses the same tooling we used for previous classes.

Either way, it's a sight more expensive than NO CHANGE AT ALL! (i.e. A345/6E), which is actually the item of debate.
 
LY777
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RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Wed Nov 30, 2005 6:35 am

I flew both the 777 and the A340 and the 777 was far more comfortable, the flight was smoother, and it rides better in turbulences.
And I would like to add that I am not anti-Airbus, I am just pro-boeing. I like AIrbus products,but I prefer Boeing products.
Flown:717,727,732,733,734,735,738,73H,742/744/748,752,753,762/2ER/763/3ER,772/77E/773/77W, 788, 789, DC8,DC10,E190,E195,MD83,MD88, L1011, A3B2,A319,A320-100/200,A321,A332/A333,A343,A388
 
JetMaster
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RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Wed Nov 30, 2005 7:35 am

Quoting UAMAYBACH1239 (Reply 68):
Correct but B is not having any trouble selling them or living up to perform the way it was promised.

See reply 23, then 15.  Wink


Regards,
JM
The Journey is my Destination
 
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USAF336TFS
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RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Wed Nov 30, 2005 8:45 am

Quoting Hirnie (Reply 69):
I did a lot of trips on different airlines in different 777s and 340s. The 340 is by far the more comfortable aircraft for pax.

Both the wife (LH employee) and I have also flown on both aircraft, and our opinions are just opposite of yours. It's much too subjective to make such a blanket statement as that. Perhaps for you... I'll agree that BOTH aircraft are very comfortable, but we prefer the T7.
336th Tactical Fighter Squadron, 4th Fighter Wing, Seymour Johnson AFB
 
airfrnt
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RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Wed Nov 30, 2005 9:01 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 53):
Why should Boeing just throw up their hands and say "well, if ya need more then 400 people, buy an A380"?

Because the 400+ market is very very small.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 53):
And why should Airbus just throw up their hands and say "if ya need to carry between 300-400 people, buy a B777"?

They shouldn't, but that's effectivly what the A340/B777 battle has become.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 57):
Certainly, Airbus got this one right. The B787 is Boeing's admission of this 30 years later.

Umm. Arguably that was the 767/757 family. It certainly was "admitted" (to use your loaded term) by the 777. In particular the 777 versus A340 proved that Boeing learned the lesson that Airbus tought them and is now schooling their former masters.

Airbus arguably is showing that they still don't quite get it with another iteration of the A340.
 
Areopagus
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RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Wed Nov 30, 2005 9:28 am

Quoting B2707SST (Reply 65):
By "retwisting and relofting," I assume Peace means they are modifying the angle of incidence and dihedral at the wing-body join, probably for more engine clearance.

In boat building, lofting is the process of connecting the frames with smoothly curved stringers (or doing so mathematically) to fill out the 3-d shape of the hull. So when Peace says they will reloft the wing, that pretty strongly implies that the airfoil shape will change. So this is turning out to be a very substantial reworking of the wing, more so than Boeing had previously been letting on.

Now, just where you draw the line between "substantial rework" and "all-new" is just a battle over semantics. The airflow doesn't care how the manufacturer arrived at the wing design, just how it performs. Still, since it is not a totally clean-sheet design but a modification of an existing one, I don't consider it "all new".
 
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Stitch
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RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Wed Nov 30, 2005 9:44 am

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 74):
Because the 400+ market is very very small.

It most likely is, which is why Boeing felt that launching a true "new-sheet" competitor to the A380 when their various 747 initiatives were met with, at best, lukewarm success.

But Boeing feels there is enough...desire...for something bigger then the B773, but not as big as the A388, to justify launching another refresh of the 747. I admit fully that cargo is going to be the main market for this plane, but Boeing did have enough faith (if not unannounced LoIs) to launch a passenger model, as well.

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 74):
Airbus arguably is showing that they still don't quite get it with another iteration of the A340.

I believe the A346E is not so much an "admission of failure" vis-a-vis the 773ER (though I do believe the A345E is that vis-a-vis the 772LR) as it is to Airbus what the 747-8 is to Boeing - a way to sell some more planes to existing customers and to keep them "in the family". In Airbus' case, this would be current A346 operators and A33x/A34x operators who need a bigger plane.

Yes, it is a "stop-gap" in a way until Airbus can develop a "clean-sheet" large twin-engined widebody to go nose-to-nose in size, payload, range, and efficiency with the 773ER and 772LR and probably whatever Boeing develops to replace the 777 family. Down the road, they really do have to seriously address the 350-450 seat passenger and large (as opposed to very large) freighter markets lest they cede them to Boeing, and Boeing can make more then enough money from that market to use it to put the hurt on Airbus at the small (narrowbody), medium (A330/B787) and even very large markets (if it proves as robust as Airbus believes).

But I believe they have time. The 773ER and 772LR still have a good decade of active sales life in them. That is enough time for Airbus to launch the A350, build-up the A380, continue development of a new A320 (A360?), and prepare to launch a large widebody (A370?).

Yes, Boeing will probably be "first", just as they will be with the 787 vs. the A350. And if the 787 systems and construction prove to truly be "revolutionary", they will have the advantage of famliarity in transitioning them to their narrowbody and large widebody programs. But Airbus are smart cookies. If the 787 truly resets the playing field in the mid-sized widebody market, Airbus will re-trench and adapt.
 
Zone1
Posts: 895
Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2005 4:47 am

RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Wed Nov 30, 2005 10:43 am

Based on Airbus' current nomenclature, shouldn't this plane be called the A360???

 duck 
/// U N I T E D
 
boeing767-300
Posts: 626
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 11:23 pm

RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Wed Nov 30, 2005 10:51 am

Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 50):
To help you off in easy wording:
The GE90 is a massive engine, with a huge fan, thus requiring quite a powerful turbine to power it... neither the GEnx nor the Trend 1000 have a combustion section which comes anywhere near a power section able to provide the turbine with the amount of required energy.

Whilst I'm no engineer this two engine concept versus four engine has always intriqued me.

To put it in railroad terms back in the 70's and 80's when it was fashionable for railroads to purchase both 4 axle and 6 axle power they found that the traction power split six ways was better for low speed slog up the hills than 4 axles and yet 4 axles were far superior for maintaining higher speeds in flattish country.

I believe there is inherent advantages in two GE90s use less fuel in cruise than 4 much lower thrust Trent 500s which have to work comparatively harder to provide the necessary thrust to maintain .83 mach in cruise.

Its kind of like the study that found it was better to have one locomotive in full power and at the peak of efficiencey than to have all 5 locos between idle and half power where they were less efficeient (Turbocharged).

With regard to Sabena Pilots quote above I believe 2 GE90-115Bs combined used less fuel than 4 Trent 500s to maintain cruise.
 
B707Stu
Posts: 893
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 4:15 pm

RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Wed Nov 30, 2005 10:54 am

Quoting Hirnie (Reply 69):
Seen from a passenger`s point of view I´d love to see a more competetive variant of the 340 so that more airlines choose it. I did a lot of trips on different airlines in different 777s and 340s. The 340 is by far the more comfortable aircraft for pax.

For starters let me say I prefer the A320 over the 737 from a cabin and flight comfort perspective. Having said that I must completely disagree about the A340 versus 777 cabin comfort and flight experience. I've ridden many of both and hands down the 777 is, from my experience, the aircraft I prefer in this category. Especially if I'm upfront where it's so quiet I often check to see if the engines are running upon descent.

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 73):
Both the wife (LH employee) and I have also flown on both aircraft, and our opinions are just opposite of yours. It's much too subjective to make such a blanket statement as that. Perhaps for you... I'll agree that BOTH aircraft are very comfortable, but we prefer the T7.

I have to agree with you. And hearing that from a spouse of someone from LH makes it even stronger. Thanks for the honesty. I believe, like their are moderates in politics, some of us prefer Airbus in some categories (me with A320/A321 and Boeing in others, 777)

...and like all moderates, we ultimately drive the market!
 
Xkorpyoh
Posts: 732
Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2004 12:55 am

RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Wed Nov 30, 2005 11:55 am

Quoting B707Stu (Reply 79):
me with A320/A321 and Boeing in others, 777

 checkmark  same here, if anybody is counting.
...but B757 wins over A321 (for me).

The argument about A346-"Super-NG" vs 748 doesn't take in consideration that
- New A346 vs 773ER (if you need 300-400 paxs)
- New A345 vs 777LR (if you need 200-300 pax looong haul)
- New ???? vs B748 <-- own market (if you need 400-500 paxs)
- A380 vs ???? <-- own market (if you need 550+ paxs)
 
atmx2000
Posts: 4301
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 4:24 pm

RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Wed Nov 30, 2005 2:38 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 57):


Quoting Jaysit,reply=16:
A very interesting historical development given that when Airbus first launched the A300, Boeing pooh pooh'd the whole wide-bodied twin concept.

Certainly, Airbus got this one right. The B787 is Boeing's admission of this 30 years later.

Um, have you not forgotten the 767 and 777. Unless you were thinking he was referring to the 2+4+2 layout. But I think the 787 one ups this with a much more clever cross section that allows comfortable 9 across seating by both being slightly wider and even taller.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!

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