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cloud4000
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A350: US Airways Order Firmed Up

Wed Nov 30, 2005 6:41 am

Quoting A342 (Reply 49):
Yes. 9 or 10 A332 arriving from 2007(?). So I somewhat doubt this statement:

I thought this order was cancelled?  Confused
Boston, USA
 
kyair
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A350: US Airways Order Firmed Up

Wed Nov 30, 2005 6:46 am

Quoting Cloud4000 (Reply 52):
Quoting A342 (Reply 49):
Yes. 9 or 10 A332 arriving from 2007(?). So I somewhat doubt this statement:

I thought this order was cancelled?

No, they are still on order. And thanks A342, for setting JetMaster straight. The 332s will replace the 762s on international. The '62s will then no doubt see domestic hub-to-hub.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened - Dr. Seuss
 
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PanAm_DC10
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A350: US Airways Order Firmed Up

Wed Nov 30, 2005 6:57 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 50):
...again, 20 of those 200 have a big red asterisk next to them. These weren't purchases made by a company thoroughly impressed with and dying to buy the A350, although they'll certainly spin it that way.

Fair enough though I thought both Companies at the point that the agreement was made would have had a vested interest in seeing the transaction done. A similar situation would exist for Boeing and Delta, 50 deferred 738s & 5 772s are sitting on Boeing's books and IIRC Boeing is one of Delta's largest creditors with an exposure of US$3.7 billion. With DL in CH11 that gives both companies an incentive to structure a solution. Similar but not quite the same as to what Airbus and US/HP faced. If my opinion differs from yours, respectfully, so be it sir.

Quoting Dhefty (Reply 51):
Boeing does this for Unidentified Orders, whereas Airbus repeatedly announces orders as new even after the orders have been posted and identified, as this "new order" confirms.

I understand your point Dhefty though ILFC was the worst kept UFO in the business. My point was, Airbus should be entitled to announce the order formally once it is booked. I'm not sure why they left it for a month after they put them on the books though I'm sure they had their reasons.

Regards, PanAm_DC10
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AJet
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A350: US Airways Order Firmed Up

Wed Nov 30, 2005 7:04 am

It appears to me most of you talking of a bribe don't know what they're talking about.

A bribe is money or a favor given to someone who acts on behalf of an organization , be it a company or a government, and who clinches a deal on behalf of that organization.

The person gets the bribe, the organization gets the bad deal which it wouldn't have, if the person hadn't been bribed.

In the present case, I haven't heard of any US executive having been offered money PERSONALLY to make this deal happen. The loan was granted to US in the whole package, not to the executive in charge of making that deal.

Cheers
 
PlaneDane
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A350: US Airways Order Firmed Up

Wed Nov 30, 2005 7:21 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 41):
It's all semantics, but they're essentially the same. US was given money to enable them to complete their merger...in exchange for orders of the A350. This is classic quid pro quo no matter how you slice it, and satisfies the definition of "bribery."

Airbus also lent a significant portion of that $250M to US simply for the airline to use in paying penalties on cancellations and deferrals right back to Airbus.

US would not have had to pay those penalties had the airline simply allowed the bankruptcy court to act upon that debt obligation to Airbus. Instead, this deal was negotiated outside of court and US will now pay the penalties plus interest.

Had US simply waited for other lenders to appear, which they later did, $250M could have been easily obtained without the contractual obligations found in this deal with Airbus. Then US could have simply ordered those aircraft following bankruptcy proceedings anyway without any strings attached.
 
StuckInCA
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A350: US Airways Order Firmed Up

Wed Nov 30, 2005 7:31 am

Quoting AJet (Reply 55):
It appears to me most of you talking of a bribe don't know what they're talking about.



Quoting AJet (Reply 55):
The person gets the bribe, the organization gets the bad deal which it wouldn't have, if the person hadn't been bribed.

I don't see how your definition agrees with the dictionary. Definition 2 (see following quote) seems tough to argue against in this case. Obviously this is all semantics, and I wouldn't personally care either way (and am aware of the fact that I could be wrong). I'm just not sure why people are so adamant that this can't be described as a bribe. Do other dictionaries have different, more accurate, definitions of the word?

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 40):
According to Webster's Dictionary, here's the definition of bribe:

1 : money or favor given or promised in order to influence the judgment or conduct of a person in a position of trust
2 : something that serves to induce or influence
 
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Stitch
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A350: US Airways Order Firmed Up

Wed Nov 30, 2005 7:35 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 50):
20 of those 200 have a big red asterisk next to them. These weren't purchases made by a company thoroughly impressed with and dying to buy the A350, although they'll certainly spin it that way.

Did US' creditors state that without an extra $250 million they would not allow US to leave C11? Or did HP demand this extra cash be on hand before they would agree to the merger?

And even if they did, do you not think they also noticed that to get it, they had to agree to adding three billion in debt just a few years down the road? US saved $1 billion a year the first round of C11. I will be charitable and say they saved another billion a year in Round Two. So that leaves $1 billion they need to come up with, all while merging operations with another carrier.

And you don't think Boeing wasn't ready, willing, and able to give US that $250 million if that would have meant 787 orders? Do you think they were so upset about US buying A330s instead of 767-300s that they woukd have told US to go stuff themselves if US had said "hey, Airbus will give us $250 million if we give them $3 billion. What say you?"

And even if Airbus sold them the planes at half of list (which is highly unlikely - I don't care how desperate people think EADS is to sell these birds), that is still a huge amount of money that they need to finance while still in a tenuous financial position.

I like conspiracy theories as much as the next person, within reason, but it seems far more likely US decided they needed a larger longer-haul aircraft for current and/or future expansion and didn't want to buy an A342 or A343 when the more efficient and more economic A350 would be available at that time. And even if it isn't as efficient and economic as the 787, they still offer advantages that probaby negate (or negate enough) of those advantages to still make it logical to buy without needing to be slipped some plain manilla envelopes from John Leahy...  Smile
 
JetMaster
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A350: US Airways Order Firmed Up

Wed Nov 30, 2005 7:41 am

Quoting A342 (Reply 49):
The A333s are quite young to be replaced, even in 2011. Maybe the last ones arriving will replace them.

That's what I meant. Of course others will be replaced first.

Quoting KYAir (Reply 53):
The 332s will replace the 762s on international. The '62s will then no doubt see domestic hub-to-hub.

No doubt? Eliminating that aging type from the fleet rather than operating it on the over-capacity US domestic market seems to be more logic. Are there any reports on US' B762 plans?


Regards,
JM
The Journey is my Destination
 
PlaneDane
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A350: US Airways Order Firmed Up

Wed Nov 30, 2005 7:45 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 58):
And you don't think Boeing wasn't ready, willing, and able to give US that $250 million if that would have meant 787 orders?

No. Not a chance.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 58):
And even if they did, do you not think they also noticed that to get it, they had to agree to adding three billion in debt just a few years down the road?

Had they just waited, other lenders came forward with more than enough money to lend with better terms. But, they didn't wait and took the offer from Airbus instead.
 
aerokiwi
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A350: US Airways Order Firmed Up

Wed Nov 30, 2005 7:47 am

What's the bet this order goes the way of Continental's A330/340 order and TWA's deal for A330s. They'll switch them to another model in about 5-6 years, and Airbus will oblige accordingly.

I put this order in the same league as the Primaris 787 deal. Dubious at best.
 
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ZSOFN
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A350: US Airways Order Firmed Up

Wed Nov 30, 2005 7:55 am

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 17):
LOL - a bribe is when someone has to act on something or suffer a negative consequence if not followed through. What negative consequence will US suffer? Getting the new efficient jet in 10 years???

You've just described blackmail, not bribery.

What constantly amazes me on this site is that generally when Boeing announce an order, it's "congratulations", but with Airbus, the first few replies are always from americans telling us that something's got to be wrong.

Boeing and Airbus both have marketing departments, believe it or not, and neither A nor B would be the first company to offer a customer incentives. Heavy discounting and flexible finance are the norm these days.
 
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Stitch
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A350: US Airways Order Firmed Up

Wed Nov 30, 2005 7:58 am

Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 60):
No. Not a chance.

Yet people think they're supposedly ready to spend a lot more then $250 million to build the 787-10 to land just 2.5 times as many orders from EK, as well as essentially terminate the 772 and 772ER programs...
 
StuckInCA
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A350: US Airways Order Firmed Up

Wed Nov 30, 2005 8:02 am

Quoting ZSOFN (Reply 62):
What constantly amazes me on this site is that generally when Boeing announce an order, it's "congratulations", but with Airbus, the first few replies are always from americans telling us that something's got to be wrong.

I agree that it's sad how this happens, but don't kid yourself into thinking that it's not a two way street.
 
D L X
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A350: US Airways Order Firmed Up

Wed Nov 30, 2005 8:12 am

Quoting ZSOFN (Reply 62):
What constantly amazes me on this site is that generally when Boeing announce an order, it's "congratulations", but with Airbus, the first few replies are always from americans telling us that something's got to be wrong.

What constantly amazes me is that if an American ever says anything bad about Airbus, it's because they're biased Americans. Are we not allowed to give an objective opinion about them unless that opinion is positive?

Don't forget, you've got many Americans on this thread even saying how it was a perfectly good deal. However, you can still be objective and say that this order does not allow Airbus to trumpet it as proof airlines will like the 350.
 
brilondon
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A350: US Airways Order Firmed Up

Wed Nov 30, 2005 8:24 am

Quoting Columbia107 (Reply 7):
Provided US survives and prospects at the moment are that "the jury is out".

I agree. When the announced merger of US and AW happened I just about fell on the floor laughing. Neither airline are in any great shape financially and combining the two seemed like a last gasp at life. So when the orders come up for manufacture I have my doubts as to whether the airline will still exist.
Rush forever Closer To My Heart
 
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mariner
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A350: US Airways Order Firmed Up

Wed Nov 30, 2005 8:32 am

Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 60):
Had they just waited, other lenders came forward with more than enough money to lend with better terms. But, they didn't wait and took the offer from Airbus instead.

Why should they wait? The money was there and there were time constraints concerning the exit from bk of US Airways.

If they had not taken the $1.5 billion as it stood then, and as brokered by GECAS, it is entirely possible that US Airways would have gone down the gurgle taking all those American jobs with it.

Or is that what you would have preferred?

cheers

mariner
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ZSOFN
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A350: US Airways Order Firmed Up

Wed Nov 30, 2005 8:51 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 65):
What constantly amazes me is that if an American ever says anything bad about Airbus, it's because they're biased Americans. Are we not allowed to give an objective opinion about them unless that opinion is positive?

Didn't mean to offend, and whilst I know that there are plenty of Americans here who remain objective (in fact, the majority), there are many more Airbus cynics than Boeing, and they tend to come from America.

I have expressed negative opinions about Airbus in the past, and count myself as relatively impartial, except my tendency to stick up for the underdog  Smile And thus I believe anyone should be able to express a negative opinion about Airbus or whoever they like, however if we're honest it should be obvious to most that we have a general pro-Boeing tendency here.

I object to mindless bias based on unsubstantiated facts, but am all up for a serious debate over the true facts!
 
D L X
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A350: US Airways Order Firmed Up

Wed Nov 30, 2005 8:59 am

ZSOFN,

don't worry. I'm just snippy because someone suggested I was biased in a couple threads this week. No worries, mate.  Smile
 
PlaneDane
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A350: US Airways Order Firmed Up

Wed Nov 30, 2005 9:22 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 67):
If they had not taken the $1.5 billion as it stood then, and as brokered by GECAS, it is entirely possible that US Airways would have gone down the gurgle taking all those American jobs with it.

Or is that what you would have preferred?

Come on, Mariner. You know I don't want US to fail. This airline is based in my own hometown for heaven's sake.
 
Dougloid
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A350: US Airways Order Firmed Up

Wed Nov 30, 2005 9:39 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 67):
Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 60):
Had they just waited, other lenders came forward with more than enough money to lend with better terms. But, they didn't wait and took the offer from Airbus instead.

Why should they wait? The money was there and there were time constraints concerning the exit from bk of US Airways.

If they had not taken the $1.5 billion as it stood then, and as brokered by GECAS, it is entirely possible that US Airways would have gone down the gurgle taking all those American jobs with it.

You know, has it occurred to anyone that this order for 20 A350s is fallout from Chapter 11 that folks NOT in a position to know anything about are so busy pissing and moaning over?
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
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mariner
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A350: US Airways Order Firmed Up

Wed Nov 30, 2005 9:47 am

Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 70):
You know I don't want US to fail. This airline is based in my own hometown for heaven's sake.

Then I'm really confused - sorry. You seem very against the deal yet you want the airline to survive and it is probable that the airline would not have survived absent the deal.

I don't know how to respond to that. You have insisted to me that what Boeing did with Airtran was to help a valued customer, but that what Airbus did with HP/US was not to help a valued customer.

I think I give up.  Smile

cheers

mariner
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etops1
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A350: US Airways Order Firmed Up

Wed Nov 30, 2005 9:49 am

we will just have to wait and see what happens with all this. this merger is at it's early stages . so far i have seen alot more good things happening than bad. this airbus order is a good thing. it might give airways the ability to begin asia service out of phx. from what i have read the A350 has a range of about 8,000 miles. let's give it a chance before we shoot it down. sure it's a long way from now , but alot of things can happen between now and 2011. airbus could expidite the production of this a/c and airways might get it sooner than later.
 
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EA CO AS
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A350: US Airways Order Firmed Up

Wed Nov 30, 2005 9:59 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 58):
And you don't think Boeing wasn't ready, willing, and able to give US that $250 million if that would have meant 787 orders? Do you think they were so upset about US buying A330s instead of 767-300s that they woukd have told US to go stuff themselves if US had said "hey, Airbus will give us $250 million if we give them $3 billion. What say you?"

First off, Boeing isn't in the position of trying to jump-start the 787 program. Airbus IS trying to jump-start what has so far proven to be a very anemic A350 program by comparison, though.

Translation? They were much hungrier for a deal than Boeing - a company that has already filled several YEARS worth of order slots for the 787 and is getting all hands on deck to keep up with demand.

Besides, US and HP have been diehard Airbus customers for the better part of a decade. Boeing knows there's very little opportunity there, so there would be little point in throwing money their way to get sales on a plane that's already "flying off the shelves" to other carriers.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
etops1
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A350: US Airways Order Firmed Up

Wed Nov 30, 2005 10:02 am

US Airways firms up order for 20 A350s (from the airbus website)
29 November 2005


Following a commitment announced in May 2005 by US Airways and America West, US Airways Group - the merged entity of the two low-cost carriers - has firmed up their order and signed the contract for 20 Airbus A350 aircraft. The airline has not yet announced its engine selection or seating configuration for the aircraft. US Airways' intention is for the A350 to broaden its international service from both the eastern and western United States. Deliveries of the aircraft will begin in 2011 and run through 2014.

"When we restructured the airline, we knew we would need a new aircraft to grow with us, and the A350 truly fits the bill," said Doug Parker, chairman, president and chief executive officer of the newly merged US Airways. "As both halves of our heritage include Airbus fleets, we have great confidence in the brand, and look forward to an airplane that meets our needs for range, economy, and comfort, while offering our crews technology with which they are already experienced."

In addition to a single-aisle fleet of some 200 Airbus aircraft, US Airways flies nine A330 widebodies, the pilots of which will need no additional training to transition to the A350. The cockpit commonality between the two aircraft allow pilots of the A330 and A350 to share the same type rating.

"US Airways is our first U.S. airline customer for the A350, and we know they are leading a trend," said Gustav Humbert, President and Chief Executive Officer of Airbus. "We designed the aircraft in direct reaction to airline requests, offering more range and new materials to lighten the load and better the fuel economy. The A350 will be an ideal complement to the existing US Airways fleet."

Orders and commitments for the A350 currently total 155 from eleven customers worldwide. Following a launch of the aircraft programme in October of this year, the first A350 is scheduled to be delivered in 2010. The A350 will seat between 253-300 passengers in three classes, with a range of up to 8,800 nautical miles.

Airbus is a joint EADS company with BAE Systems.
 
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Stitch
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A350: US Airways Order Firmed Up

Wed Nov 30, 2005 10:14 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 74):
Airbus IS trying to jump-start what has so far proven to be a very anemic A350 program by comparison, though. Translation? They were much hungrier for a deal than Boeing - a company that has already filled several YEARS worth of order slots for the 787 and is getting all hands on deck to keep up with demand.

Yet every order Airbus lands for the A350 "legitimizes" the program as a competitor to the 787, both in terms of providing monies to actually launch the program and in giving confidence to other operators to place their own orders for the plane instead of the 787.

I am sure Boeing is quite happy to sell out the first three years of 787 production.

I am also sure they'd prefer to sell out the following three years of 787 production then have to split it, in whatever amount, with the A350.

Not to mention the three years after that. And after that. And so on...

Quote:
Besides, US and HP have been diehard Airbus customers for the better part of a decade. Boeing knows there's very little opportunity there, so there would be little point in throwing money their way to get sales on a plane that's already "flying off the shelves" to other carriers.

Then why in Reply #3 did you claim Airbus "essentially bribed" US to get the order?

Or in Reply #25 claim that a major motivator for Airbus landing the order was because they fronted US $250 million in exit financing?

Or in Reply #41 state that the order was "quid pro quo"

Or in Reply 50 state that US was neither impressed with nor particularly desired to order the A350.

If US was not going to buy new widebodies from Boeing, were they perhaps going to purchase IL-96s? Big grin

[Edited 2005-11-30 02:18:51]
 
FCYTravis
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A350: US Airways Order Firmed Up

Wed Nov 30, 2005 10:27 am

As was pointed out to me, the idea that US Airways' 762s are "aging" is not really true. They are fairly new, some even newer than United's 744s - having last been delivered in the early 1990s. They just haven't seen paint jobs or interior updates in a long time... so they look like they're ready for Mojave.
The question is, what will fleet commonality issues dictate... will US keep them around for secondary routes or domestic flying, or decide it wants nothing but Airbuses in the widebody fleet?
USAir A321 service now departing for SFO with fuel stops in CAK, COS and RNO. Enjoy your flight.
 
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Stitch
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A350: US Airways Order Firmed Up

Wed Nov 30, 2005 10:42 am

Well US has painted one of their 762s in the new colors. I am guessing that they do this when they send the plane in for it's heavy maintenance check, which is a labor/time/money intensive process, so I would think that they intend to keep them around at least for a number of years before they eventually phase them out for an all-Airbus widebody fleet. But this process could be a decade or more in the making.
 
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EA CO AS
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A350: US Airways Order Firmed Up

Wed Nov 30, 2005 11:13 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 76):
Quote:
Besides, US and HP have been diehard Airbus customers for the better part of a decade. Boeing knows there's very little opportunity there, so there would be little point in throwing money their way to get sales on a plane that's already "flying off the shelves" to other carriers.

Then why in Reply #3 did you claim Airbus "essentially bribed" US to get the order?

Or in Reply #25 claim that a major motivator for Airbus landing the order was because they fronted US $250 million in exit financing?

Or in Reply #41 state that the order was "quid pro quo"

Or in Reply 50 state that US was neither impressed with nor particularly desired to order the A350.

If US was not going to buy new widebodies from Boeing, were they perhaps going to purchase IL-96s?

Your mistake is in assuming that the combined US/HP was in dire need of new widebody lift within the next five to seven years, though.

They weren't. Not right now, anyway. The need for new widebodies didn't need to be addressed for another year or two, especially in light of the fact that they're still working the kinks out from this merger.

Put another way, do you and your wife run right out and buy brand new cars immediately after getting married and buying a new house, or do you concentrate on seeing what your bills look like first before committing those financial resources you might need later?

No, this was about enticing the carrier into getting needed money up front in exchange for a "We landed an order from a U.S. major!" headline in AW&ST and other industry publications. Nothing more.

Quid pro quo. This for that.

I don't know how much clearer I can make it.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
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mariner
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A350: US Airways Order Firmed Up

Wed Nov 30, 2005 11:30 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 80):
The need for new widebodies didn't need to be addressed for another year or two, especially in light of the fact that they're still working the kinks out from this merger.

By which time:

(i) they wouldn't have got the launch customer discount, which we can assume to at least 40%. Given the rumors that Boeing gave ANA 50% LCD on the 787, it might have been more.

(ii) US Airways may well have been in Chapter 7 if they had waited much longer. They had already warned that they did not have the money to pay wages and bills.

So - two Airbus customers ordered some Airbus aircraft and one of them didn't liquidate.

As for quid pro quo, okay. But again, Boeing invited some Japanese manufacturers to help manufacture the 787 and, guess what, some japanese airlines bought the 787.

They might have ordered the aircraft anyway. Just as two Airbus customers might have ordered some more Airbus planes.

cheers

mariner
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NW727251ADV
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A350: US Airways Order Firmed Up

Wed Nov 30, 2005 11:37 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 81):
As for quid pro quo, okay. But again, Boeing invited some Japanese manufacturers to help manufacture the 787 and, guess what, some japanese airlines bought the 787.

But the differences here are worth saying. ANA operates A320 so it's not like you can call them biased towards one manufacturer. And JAL is a known airline for their loyalty to Boeing. So neither of these are surprises. Was Airbus even seriously talking about the prospects of an "A350" when ANA placed orders for the 787???

[Edited 2005-11-30 03:38:36]
NWA   N O R T H W E S T A I R L I N E S
 
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mariner
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A350: US Airways Order Firmed Up

Wed Nov 30, 2005 11:44 am

Quoting NW727251ADV (Reply 82):
Was Airbus even seriously talking about the prospects of an "A350" when ANA placed orders for the 787???

I think so. But surely the point is - based on your parallel - just as ANA was a known Boeing customer, so US Airways was a known Airbus customer and already flying A330's.

The jump from A330 to A350 is not very far. Why, some here claim it is no distance at all.  Smile

cheers

mariner
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Stitch
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A350: US Airways Order Firmed Up

Wed Nov 30, 2005 12:19 pm

Quoting NW727251ADV (Reply 79):
This is your most idiotic post on this thread yet. So let me get this straight...Boeing should concede the 777-sized aircraft market to Airbus so as not to look "desperate" and "pathetic"?

Actually, I have been saying the exact opposite.  Confused That Airbus launching the A346E program is a way for them to not concede the 777-sized market to Boeing, but anyway...

Boeing has been hesitant to release a really HGW 787-9 or a stretched 787-10 because they feel doing so will put it square in the target size, payload capacity, and range of the 772 and 772ER.

But of course by the logic the most vocal a-netters profess - "CASM is King and all must worship it" - this means every current 772(ER) operator will immediately dump them and buy A359s unless Boeing launches a 787 model with the same (or better) performance, so they can then all buy it, instead.  Yeah sure

Just because 772 sales are down this year should not be taken as a sign that the plane has outlived it's usefulness and is now a "CASM-Anchor" destined to drain billions in revenue from any airline so "stupid" to continue to fly it past 2010...  Yeah sure

Quote:
Your comment is almost as stupid as saying Toyota should not release their 2007 Camry early to effectively compete with the Hundai Sonata because Toyota will be (in effect) canabalizing their 2006 Camry sales. If its the inevitable that the 2006 Sonata would/could eventually outsell the 06 Camry, wouldn't it be smart for Toyota to have the last laugh by outselling its own product with the same, meaning Toyota gets the money that would otherwise be lost to Hyundai?

Too bad you didn't read Reply #76, where I argued that Boeing should never just walk away from any opportunity to fight Airbus for every 787 order they can get so as to deny the A350 every order it can get.

Quote:
Same situation with Boeing, the odds are against Boeing that the A350 will more-than-likely obliterate the 777-200ER.

Excuse me for having a bit more faith in the abilities of the boys across Lake Washington then you seem to. Even if the A359 is the greatest thing since sliced bread and totally invalidates the 772ER as a passenger plane (and with nothing but the Mouth of Airbus claiming it will be so, excuse me if I seem a bit...unconvinced), the line will live on. The 777-200LR and 777-200F will probably be built for decades to come and will probably be built in the hundreds of frames between them.
 
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TheRedBaron
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A350: US Airways Order Firmed Up

Wed Nov 30, 2005 12:25 pm

In my view, Airbus is still quite aggresiv ein penetrating the American Market, even if its on a loyal Airbus customer.

If HP and Us Airways had ordered any Boeing product (money or not) it would be viewed as a big blow to the A350 program.

Remember 1978 when Eastern had half a dozen A300 for almost nothing, and used them in the christmas season? Boeing laughed and mocked A because they looked desperate, after EA accepted the planes and put them in heavy use they said the deal was "illegal".

Now almost 30 years later they make sure they have a foot on the American market door. just as they did before. A ton of things can happen in this next years and maybe they will go the way of the dodo (the same as EA) but they had to do it to give a push to the a350 and a big credibility in the north american market.

Best regards TRB
The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
 
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Stitch
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A350: US Airways Order Firmed Up

Wed Nov 30, 2005 12:38 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 80):
Your mistake is in assuming that the combined US/HP was in dire need of new widebody lift within the next five to seven years, though. They weren't. Not right now, anyway.

May I ask how you know US is not interested in expanding their service come the early 2010s? International is about the only area the American domestic majors are generating any positive revenue because they don't have the LCCs depressing fares in competition. DL is expanding their international ops as fast as they possibly can and UA is moving widebodies from domestic to international service. US failing to try and increase lift to international locales where they can maintain "living margins" would seem to be counterproductive, especially as WN and Co. continue to expand in their domestic markets.

Quote:
Put another way, do you and your wife run right out and buy brand new cars immediately after getting married and buying a new house, or do you concentrate on seeing what your bills look like first before committing those financial resources you might need later?

If my wife and I were running a van taxi service between a hotel and two airports, one close and one far away, and I could charge 200% more for the farther one while using 50% more fuel and I had another taxi company competitor who only drove to the local airport, and they did it with a car that got much better mileage then my van, so their costs were much lower and could charge so little that when I matched I lost money...

If a larger car would allow me to take more people (who would choose me if I could take them) to the farther airport, and cut my fuel bill 10% doing it, then darn right I'd go out and buy a new one because that extra money (both in immediate revenue and operational savings) would help me pay my bills as well as hopefully keep the smaller competitor unable to adequately compete against me on the longer, more lucrative route.  Smile

Quoting NW727251ADV (Reply 82):
But the differences here are worth saying. ANA operates A320 so it's not like you can call them biased towards one manufacturer.

NH's Airbus order might have been because the 737NG was not available at the time. They did place a 27 73G order in June of 2003, which would allow them to replace all of their older 733 and 735 models and noted they intend to place future orders to replace their A320s.
 
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jaybird
Posts: 397
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A350: US Airways Order Firmed Up

Wed Nov 30, 2005 1:14 pm

Here's an image from airbus.com ..

 
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Stitch
Posts: 27082
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A350: US Airways Order Firmed Up

Wed Nov 30, 2005 1:23 pm

Looks like Airbus didn't get the memo about the new colorscheme. Big grin

The 762 looks really good in the new colors, so an A359 probably should look nice, as well.
 
lehpron
Posts: 6846
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2001 3:42 am

A350: US Airways Order Firmed Up

Wed Nov 30, 2005 1:32 pm

Quoting Cactus739 (Reply 37):
Quoting NW727251ADV (Reply 22):
From what I've read on A.net US can barely justify having a fleet of A330s.

Don't believe 1/3 of the things you read on here.

Just realize that opinions are not ever facts, no matter how much people are so sure about them. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but not when it is ignorant, I consider those as rants.

Quoting D L X (Reply 65):
Are we not allowed to give an objective opinion about them unless that opinion is positive?

Keep in mind a true objective statement takes no stance, i dare you to find one. Technically, its impossible to take offense to an objective statement; people simply have an different idea for what things mean, it is about interpretation. This issue with Airbus and the $250 million loan means different things to different people, I see it as an incentive. Those that think in B&W simply will not accept other versions what they see as reality, things are obvious to them. We are all guilty of this.

Quoting ZSOFN (Reply 68):
I object to mindless bias based on unsubstantiated facts, but am all up for a serious debate over the true facts!

There in lies the key. People in general believe their [unchallenged] opinons so much that they see them as fact and will not bother questioning it. They think they know enough, and like I said, we're all guilty of this in our respective subjects.  Wink
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
md90fan
Posts: 2798
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 11:15 am

A350: US Airways Order Firmed Up

Wed Nov 30, 2005 1:34 pm

Quoting JetMaster (Reply 26):
You better shouldn't believe all the stuff on a.net. Their A333s are usually well filled on the trunk routes, and so are the B762 (with seasonal variation - which affects any carrier). The A350 will directly replace the A333 fleet and provide growth over the B762 - remember: international air traffic is still expected to grow, so why not replace a current type with a larger one in six years?

So the A350's will repace A333's and the old 762's will still be flying?
http://www.devanwells.blogspot.com/
 
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EA CO AS
Posts: 15694
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

A350: US Airways Order Firmed Up

Wed Nov 30, 2005 2:00 pm

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 85):
after EA accepted the planes and put them in heavy use they said the deal was "illegal".

That was primarily because Frank Borman arranged a deal with Airbus where EA essentially got the planes for FREE during their trial period at EA - they'd only pay if they kept them. If they didn't like 'em, they'd return them without paying a cent.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
etops1
Posts: 853
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2005 12:26 pm

A350: US Airways Order Firmed Up

Wed Nov 30, 2005 2:46 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 78):

just to let you know we have 2 767's painted in the new livery .N650US & N656US. other a/c to be painted will be us/west 737-300,29 in 2006.A320,2 in 2005 & 53 in 2006. A319, 39 in 2006. 757, 12 in 2006. total of 133 for us/west. us/east . 757, 3 in 2005 & 7 in 2006. 767, 5 in 2005 no more sched for 2006. 737-300 ,27 in 2006. no A330 a/c on the sched to be painted in either 2005 or 2006 unless noted. total of 39 for us/east . with a grand total of 172 a/c painted in new livery for the combined carrier in 2006.
 
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EA CO AS
Posts: 15694
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A350: US Airways Order Firmed Up

Wed Nov 30, 2005 2:46 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 86):
May I ask how you know US is not interested in expanding their service come the early 2010s?

Who said they aren't? My question is CAN they - or at least COULD they without the generous support of our friends in Toulouse?

Assume for a moment they DO plan on that - did they have the financial resources at the time of the initial order to actually BACK the order? Furthermore, do they have the resources to expand? Will those resources come by the early 2010s?

Or is this - at least in part - funded by Airbus Industries' new "Adopt A Launch Customer" program?  bigthumbsup 


I mean, I can plan to take a four week European vacation next year but it doesn't mean squat if I don't have the money to actually make those plans come to fruition.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 86):
Quote:
Put another way, do you and your wife run right out and buy brand new cars immediately after getting married and buying a new house, or do you concentrate on seeing what your bills look like first before committing those financial resources you might need later?

If my wife and I were running a van taxi service between a hotel and two airports, one close and one far away, and I could charge 200% more for the farther one while using 50% more fuel and I had another taxi company competitor who only drove to the local airport, and they did it with a car that got much better mileage then my van, so their costs were much lower and could charge so little that when I matched I lost money...

"'Grasping at straws,' party of one....paging Mr. 'Grasping at straws'...."  sarcastic 
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
etops1
Posts: 853
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2005 12:26 pm

A350: US Airways Order Firmed Up

Wed Nov 30, 2005 2:48 pm

source for the painting sched was from "about us" usairways employee newsletter
 
etops1
Posts: 853
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2005 12:26 pm

A350: US Airways Order Firmed Up

Wed Nov 30, 2005 2:53 pm

also let me make a correction on the us/east 757's. 3 will be painted in 2005 and 4 in 2006 with a total of 7 in 2006.
 
etops1
Posts: 853
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2005 12:26 pm

A350: US Airways Order Firmed Up

Wed Nov 30, 2005 3:17 pm

one other thing. no a/b aircraft at us/east xcept for N109UW.will be painted in the new livery in 2006 since they already say usairways and sport the flag logo on the tail. and they are not in dire need of painting. the reason more us/west a/c are being painted is because they want to accellerate the rebranding of usairways and get rid of the america west brand. also the heritage planes will be painted in early 2006. it sounds like it will be us/west A320's that will be painted in heritage colors.
 
Toulouse
Posts: 2200
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A350: US Airways Order Firmed Up

Wed Nov 30, 2005 5:28 pm

Quoting Jumbojet (Reply 13):
Airbus gives the impression that they will do AYTHING for a contract. Much like a little leauge team you may have been on that will do ANYTHING to win!

Of course... I'm in business and would do just about anything to get business. Normal!

Now, I only read as far as this post on the thread as I saw how it was starting to turn into an Airbus bashing posts due to some (not all) of our fellow US a.netters. Pity. Just couldn't stomach reading any more russbish. Yeah, I know I probably should have read the whole thread before responding, that's why I stated I only read as far as the above quote by Jumbojet.
Long live Aer Lingus!
 
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distanthorizon
Posts: 207
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2005 4:48 pm

A350: US Airways Order Firmed Up

Wed Nov 30, 2005 10:13 pm

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 4):
Very true. You hit it right on the head.

Very wrong. You completely missed the point. Was it deliberate? You must know that choosing a planes goes well beyond picking the one that best suits the needs. There are things called politics, interests, prices...

Quoting Grantcv (Reply 11):
I don't understand why Airbus requires government assistance for the A350

I doesn't. But if it is available, why should they reject it? Boeing doesn't!

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 17):
a bribe is when someone has to act on something or suffer a negative consequence if not followed through.

Well, not really - that is blackmail. A bribe is when someone is offered something to do something illegal.
And OFF COURSE there is no bribe here... There is simply nothing illegal (or even immoral) going on! Just pure business.

Quoting NW727251ADV (Reply 24):
Airbus basically took advantage of someone who was down for their benefit. Did US Airways really have too many other options but to say "Yes"?

Do you really believe your own words? Off course they could say no. And off course Airbus did no charity...
But I bet US was glad Airbus offered the deal...

DH
Regards
Nelson SE
 
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Stitch
Posts: 27082
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

A350: US Airways Order Firmed Up

Wed Nov 30, 2005 11:38 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 93):
My question is CAN they - or at least COULD they without the generous support of our friends in Toulouse? Assume for a moment they DO plan on that - did they have the financial resources at the time of the initial order to actually BACK the order? Furthermore, do they have the resources to expand? Will those resources come by the early 2010s?

I see one of two things happening (though this is just my opinion):

  • Airbus agreed to an order from US for 20 A350s with no deposits. They then loaned US $250 million they could use to finance their exit from C11;
  • Airbus agreed to an order from US for 20 A350s with $250 million in deposits, and then loaned them that $250 million.

Now, I admit in Scenario #1 Airbus could have done something like a token $1 million deposit per plane. And they could have given US $250 million with the condition that this money be used to make payments on outstanding Airbus deliveries due over the next few years (are there any A33x/A32x planes due?).

In such a case, US traded "cash today" for "debt tomorrow". If their position truly was so tenuous that they risked near-term C7 liquidation (and while it didn't appear that way, I did not know US' true financial situation), then Airbus may very well have had US up against the wall.

But unless Airbus agreed to a no-penalty cancellation clause and none or limited "progress payments", US has to come up with the cash to make those payments and eventually the delivery payment. They may have said "we'll worry about that later", but did enough of their creditors feel the same? US had been in C11 twice in a period of what, three years? US setting themselves up for large future cash payments that they might not be able to meet may not have inspired confidence in not making a third trip.

Then again, Airbus has shown a willingness to make extreme deals to land orders. EA's "A300 free trial" and B6's back-loaded lease deals. While $250 million is not chump change, it's also not a deep risk for Airbus, so I admit that I can see Scenario 1 as possible.


In Scenario #2, that would seem to me to imply that US wanted new planes and they needed the deposit money fronted to them because they could not spend their own. They then:

  • Never considered Boeing and just asked Airbus;
  • Considered Boeing and Airbus, and decided Airbus was the better fit;
  • Preferred Boeing, but Airbus was willing to loan US $250 million to secure the positions while Boeing was not.

I want to believe Boeing would have said "yes" if asked, thereby negating Scenario 3, but admit I was not present for any of the discussions.  

[Edited 2005-11-30 15:45:20]
 
thegooddoctor
Posts: 418
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2005 8:12 am

A350: US Airways Order Firmed Up

Thu Dec 01, 2005 12:16 am

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 5):
US was not bribed to do anything. Look, US signed a contract for planes with Airbus. Airbus was just simply nice enough to help them out during this rough patch.

Ahhh, I remember those days of freshman economics... I think I still have my notes from the day that the professor talked about corporate philanthropy - While he lectured, a video played in the background showing CEO's everywhere skipping through fields of flowers in the spring-time, spreading their general all-around niceness to the entire world!

...nice is when someone takes you out for dinner. When there are eight or nine zeroes involved, niceness is called "a deal". Put the A v. B crap to rest and call a spade a spade - Airbus does it, boeing does it, everybody does it - it's called business.
The GoodDoctor
 
thegooddoctor
Posts: 418
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2005 8:12 am

A350: US Airways Order Firmed Up

Thu Dec 01, 2005 12:22 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 41):
My only point is that this shouldn't be seen as a big win for the A350 program, since these 20 orders come with a big asterisk attached to them.

EA - right on - somehow I think this point will get lost/is lost in this thread.
The GoodDoctor
 
FCYTravis
Posts: 1172
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2005 4:21 am

RE: A350: US Airways Order Firmed Up

Thu Dec 01, 2005 3:34 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 99):
Never considered Boeing and just asked Airbus;
Considered Boeing and Airbus, and decided Airbus was the better fit;
Preferred Boeing, but Airbus was willing to loan US $250 million to secure the positions while Boeing was not.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why they selected Airbus. Neither airline has bought a Boeing aircraft in a decade. Their "modern" fleet is entirely composed of Airbus A32x and A330 aircraft - along with "Classic" 733/734s and the 762s. Given fleet commonality, it's pretty much a no-brainer.

Asking why US/HP would buy A350s is like asking why CO would buy 787s. CO is a Boeing airline, US/HP is an Airbus one.
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