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JetMaster
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RE: A350: US Airways Order Firmed Up

Thu Dec 01, 2005 3:41 am

Quoting MD90fan (Reply 90):
So the A350's will repace A333's and the old 762's will still be flying?

No. My point was to show that the A350 will provide (most likely required) capacity growth over the B762 when the latter will be replaced.


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JM
The Journey is my Destination
 
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mariner
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RE: A350: US Airways Order Firmed Up

Thu Dec 01, 2005 3:42 am

Quoting Thegooddoctor (Reply 101):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 41):My only point is that this shouldn't be seen as a big win for the A350 program, since these 20 orders come with a big asterisk attached to them.
EA - right on - somehow I think this point will get lost/is lost in this thread.

Who is claiming it as a "win"?

It is difficult, however, to see it as a "loss".  Smile

cheers

mariner
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BoomBoom
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RE: A350: US Airways Order Firmed Up

Thu Dec 01, 2005 3:43 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 8):
Boeing and Airtran doesn't count?



Quoting Mariner (Reply 21):
Why not? They did it for Airtran:

I'm not sure Airbus would appreciate the comparison.

You are correct, Boeing did the same thing for Airtran with the 717 deal. Why? Because the 717 was a dog, an orphan. Nobody wanted it.

The same with the A350. It had one order for 10 planes from AirEuropa prior to this and Airbus was desperate for a sale.
Our eyes are open, our eyes are open--wide, wide, wide...
 
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mariner
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RE: A350: US Airways Order Firmed Up

Thu Dec 01, 2005 4:14 am

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 105):
Because the 717 was a dog, an orphan. Nobody wanted it.

So you are saying that Boeing "bought" the sales of a dog of an aircraft?

Does this apply to the Midwest 717 deal, too?

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
BoomBoom
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RE: A350: US Airways Order Firmed Up

Thu Dec 01, 2005 5:19 am

It was a dog of a seller. That's why the final 717 airplane is in preliminary production right now.
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mariner
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RE: A350: US Airways Order Firmed Up

Thu Dec 01, 2005 5:30 am

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 107):
It was a dog of a seller. That's why the final 717 airplane is in preliminary production right now.

We come from different worlds. I was around when the Super VC10 wasn't selling. It doesn't mean it was a "bad" aircraft.

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mariner
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BoomBoom
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RE: A350: US Airways Order Firmed Up

Thu Dec 01, 2005 5:57 am

I didn't say it was a bad aircraft. I said it was a dog of a seller.

Quit trying to put words in my mouth.
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mariner
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RE: A350: US Airways Order Firmed Up

Thu Dec 01, 2005 6:41 am

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 109):
Quit trying to put words in my mouth.

Well, sorry, but I am really confused as to what you are saying.

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mariner
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BoomBoom
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RE: A350: US Airways Order Firmed Up

Thu Dec 01, 2005 7:00 am

The plain fact is that the 717 wasn't selling. Not necessarily because it was a bad aircraft but for some reason the airlines didn't want it. Perhaps they felt they had better choices from Airbus, Boeing or Embraer. So it was a dog of a seller.

Boeing was trying to juice sales with the Airtran deal as was Airbus with the USAirways A350 deal.
Our eyes are open, our eyes are open--wide, wide, wide...
 
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mariner
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RE: A350: US Airways Order Firmed Up

Thu Dec 01, 2005 7:04 am

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 111):
Boeing was trying to juice sales with the Airtran deal as was Airbus with the USAirways A350 deal.

Okay. I agree with that. See post #8.

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mariner
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Leskova
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RE: A350: US Airways Order Firmed Up

Thu Dec 01, 2005 8:20 pm

Quoting NW727251ADV (Reply 82):
But the differences here are worth saying. ANA operates A320 so it's not like you can call them biased towards one manufacturer. And JAL is a known airline for their loyalty to Boeing.

While it's wonderfully off topic, I'll just remind you of ANA's B737 order, the intent being to replace the A320s.

I would, indeed, call that biased towards one manufacturer.

And why shouldn't they be? Boeing seems to be offering the planes that ANA either needs or expects to be needing, and they seem to be offering ANA good prices on those planes.

There's really no reason for them not to develop a bias... just as other airlines have their own respective biases.

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Frank
Smile - it confuses people!
 
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PM
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RE: A350: US Airways Order Firmed Up

Fri Dec 02, 2005 12:31 am

What catches my eye in the Airbus press release is that USAir hasn't selected an engine yet. I'd assumed all along that this was a GE order. Can anyone seriously see it going to RR?
 
art
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RE: A350: US Airways Order Firmed Up

Fri Dec 02, 2005 2:36 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 3):
they've essentially bribed an airline into buying their product.

Put another way, if GM offers to pay my mortgage for a year in exchange for me buying one of their cars in five years

It's a loan, not a gift as in your GM parallel.

Quoting Grantcv (Reply 11):
I don't understand why Airbus requires government assistance for the A350

It does not.

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 31):
Airbus has taken a gamble. Maybe it will pay off, maybe not.

 checkmark 
 
LifelinerOne
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RE: A350: US Airways Order Firmed Up

Fri Dec 02, 2005 4:07 am

What I'm missing here is that Airbus is one of the parties who doesn't want to see US fail.

No one is mentioning the fact that US is operating a rather large fleet of the A320-family, more than 100 planes. They also have some 19 A320-family planes still on order as well as 10 A330's.

If US went down the drain, a large amount of A320's will be coming into the market, which makes new sales rather difficult because the owners of these planes will offer them with lower prices because of the amount of planes being returned.

Helping US out with a loan of $250 million is just keeping your whole business safe, not only the business of US. In the end, US didn't even needed the money. Don't forget that the loan also resembles trust in the airline, which can reflect on other companies who were maybe doubting if they would help the airline out or not.

Ordering the A350 is maybe a "thank you" to Airbus for helping them out and ordering Airbus keeps their fleet-structure simple as the plane is complimentary to their fleet of A330's.

These deals are very common in business land, be it in aviation, cars, trucks and even home furnishing.

Cheers!  wave 
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LifelinerOne
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RE: A350: US Airways Order Firmed Up

Fri Dec 02, 2005 4:08 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 87):
Looks like Airbus didn't get the memo about the new colorscheme

They just read this thread:



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Only Those Who Sleep Don't Make Mistakes
 
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Stitch
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RE: A350: US Airways Order Firmed Up

Fri Dec 02, 2005 4:24 am

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 115):
No one is mentioning the fact that US is operating a rather large fleet of the A320-family, more than 100 planes. They also have some 19 A320-family planes still on order as well as 10 A330's.

I did note in Reply #98 I thought some or all of that $250 million might have been to make payments on upcoming A33x/A32x orders, and you have just answered my question on how many of each they have on order. Thanks.  Smile

Quote:
If US went down the drain, a large amount of A320's will be coming into the market, which makes new sales rather difficult because the owners of these planes will offer them with lower prices because of the amount of planes being returned. Helping US out with a loan of $250 million is just keeping your whole business safe, not only the business of US.

UA also has some 50+ A319 frames still on order, I believe, and maybe some A320s due, as well, and around 50 A319s and 100 A320s in service. Yet Airbus didn't rush in to provide some of the $3 billion-plus in exit financing UA has lined up...

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 116):
(Airbus) just read (a picture of the A350)

And it indeed looks pretty good, as I expected.
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: A350: US Airways Order Firmed Up

Fri Dec 02, 2005 5:28 am

Quoting Art (Reply 114):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 3):
they've essentially bribed an airline into buying their product.

Put another way, if GM offers to pay my mortgage for a year in exchange for me buying one of their cars in five years

It's a loan, not a gift as in your GM parallel.

Fine. Then, how about this: You've got horrible credit, no bank will qualify you for ANY sort of loan, and you're desperate for cash.

GMAC comes to you and says, "We'll loan you the cash you need to pay your mortgage and other bills...but only if you're going to buy one of our cars in the next five years."

Happy now?  Wink
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

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LifelinerOne
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RE: A350: US Airways Order Firmed Up

Fri Dec 02, 2005 6:05 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 117):
UA also has some 50+ A319 frames still on order, I believe, and maybe some A320s due, as well, and around 50 A319s and 100 A320s in service. Yet Airbus didn't rush in to provide some of the $3 billion-plus in exit financing UA has lined up...

Just pure speculation here, because nobody really knows what kind of talks are going on. I think Airbus did approach UA for a likewise agreement, but UA turned it down because it doesn't want to be dependent on one manufacturer. On the other hand, US is probably going to an all Airbus-fleet because of it's "to-be-low-cost-airlines-look-a-like-operation-with-transatlantic-flights", and it needs a simple fleet structure to do that.

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A330323X
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RE: A350: US Airways Order Firmed Up

Fri Dec 02, 2005 6:17 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 98):
And they could have given US $250 million with the condition that this money be used to make payments on outstanding Airbus deliveries due over the next few years

You know, the Airbus-US Airways term sheet is out there. I've posted it myself a half-dozen times. It describes in great detail all of the aircraft orders, and the loan. It does make a great deal of this speculation completely unneccessary, if anyone'd bother to read it.

Anyway, only $37 million of the loan went to penalties and aircraft obligations. The other $213 million is for working capital and general corporate purposes.

Quoting PM (Reply 113):
What catches my eye in the Airbus press release is that USAir hasn't selected an engine yet. I'd assumed all along that this was a GE order. Can anyone seriously see it going to RR?

They may not have firmed up the order yet, but US committed in the GE Merger MOU to buy GE engines for the A350s.

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 115):
No one is mentioning the fact that US is operating a rather large fleet of the A320-family

Rather large? That's an understatement.  Silly

After the merger, I believe they're the worlds largest operator of A32X aircraft.

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 115):
They also have some 19 A320-family planes still on order as well as 10 A330's.

In addition to the 19 A32X on order from the previous US order, there are 11 A32X on order from the previous HP order, not counting the few that will be coming later this year or early next year.
I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
 
gigneil
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RE: A350: US Airways Order Firmed Up

Fri Dec 02, 2005 6:23 am

Quoting A330323X (Reply 120):
After the merger, I believe they're the worlds largest operator of A32X aircraft.

By a VERY long shot.

N
 
D L X
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RE: A350: US Airways Order Firmed Up

Fri Dec 02, 2005 7:40 am

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 119):
US is probably going to an all Airbus-fleet because of it's "to-be-low-cost-airlines-look-a-like-operation-with-transatlantic-flights"

Are you sure it's not because Boeing tried to blame the Pittsburgh crash on US? [stirs pot]

Quoting A330323X (Reply 120):
After the merger, I believe they're the worlds largest operator of A32X aircraft.

You know, it's funny considering that it was US forcing Boeing's hand to create the 733. Oh how times change.

Who's the second largest operator of 320s?
 
soylentgreen
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RE: A350: US Airways Order Firmed Up

Wed Dec 07, 2005 1:49 am

Consider this order dead in the water. Financials released last week of the merged America West-US Airways shows worse far financials than expected. So much for the "Phoenix" business philosophy of combining two failing companies to generate one successful company. Yes, there is time, but when your first set of financials after the merger is so much worse than your budget and forecasts called for, it's not a good thing. Airbus can always sell the planes to Emirates right?

soylentgreen

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