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BlueSky1976
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RE: Qantas Long Haul Fleet Decision Due Dec. 7, So..?

Thu Dec 01, 2005 9:25 am

I highly doubt Airbus will win this order. Here's my take on it:

777-300ER as a 747-400 replacement (more cargo on trunk routes, bigger range, better fuel efficiency)
787-9 - Boeing recently announced something that Qantas was known for asking: greater MTOW, which results in a range comparable to -8. I'd be willing to bet money that QF will be the long awaited launch customer for a -9.
787-3 - There is no other widebody suited better for inter-Australian and trans-Tasman routes.

There will be options/purchase rights included for 777-200LR. QF may order 7 frames for their ORD/JFK/DFW routes. Once Boeing proves that SYD-LHR can be done nonstop with profitable load, they will order more.

I think that the main reason why Airbus is at disadvantage here is the lack of their direct medium-haul A300 replacement - not necessarily the shortcommings of A340-600. They tried that with A330-200s and while it excells for them as a long-haul plane, it just doesn't do the job as a short/medium hauler.
The queen of the skies is dead.
 
Rj111
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RE: Qantas Long Haul Fleet Decision Due Dec. 7, So..?

Thu Dec 01, 2005 9:28 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 49):
Relatively small variation in capacity? Between the B777-300ER and the A380-800? Seat counts are subjective, so let's compare cabin floor areas. 552.5 sq meters for the WhaleJet vs. 330.4 sq meters for the B777-300ER. That's a 67.2% increase. My opinion remains: that is too large a gap to leave unfilled.

I reckon the difference in QF's actual configuration will be under 50% though. Once you consider the walls of the A380's upper deck will curve in a lot, and that the A380 will naturally be more luxuriously configured, ie less dense.

I'd imagine 50% is manageable with fleet rotation in most circumstances. It's not as if the difference between the 747 and the A333 is small.

May also sway on how the A380 and 748 finally perform.

[Edited 2005-12-01 01:30:12]
 
Cruiser
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RE: Qantas Long Haul Fleet Decision Due Dec. 7, So..?

Thu Dec 01, 2005 9:46 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 48):
I think 10 A380´s have to fly for ten years before some members here will consider it proven More then 30 airlines pilots including QF flew it already, immense quantities of data are collected and shared with customers. Extreme tests have been accomplished..

He actually said unproven in COMMERCIAL OPERATIONS. Testing is not commercial operation!

A lot of test have been accomplished, and no doubt have provided Airbus with very useful data. However, it is difficult for any manufacturer to fully test the airframe until it has about a good year of commercial service. Only then can it be deemed a success.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 48):
Uncertainties have been reduced to very small percentages.

Ahh, come on! A small percentage here, a small percentage there....it all adds up! Considering all of the fuel the A380 will burn in a year, a 1% difference could cost the airline a couple million dollars per aircraft! Not chump-change!

Quoting Keesje (Reply 48):
At the same time all 787 & 747-8 data is taken as a given..

I hate to tout Boeings' horn here, but they promise what they can deliver. Unfortunately, Airbus is overpromising and under delivering! Airlines are beginning to see a pattern here that is disturbing. If the airlines lose trust in Airbus, then it could potentially become a major stumbling block for future orders. I do not think that Airbus is quite there, but if they do not deliver the A350 as promised, then yes, they will lose a lot of trust.

James
Leahy on Per Seat Costs: "Have you seen the B-2 fly-by at almost US$1bn a copy? It has only 2 seats!"
 
PyroGX41487
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RE: Qantas Long Haul Fleet Decision Due Dec. 7, So..?

Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:15 am

I actually see a large A346 order, and 772LR orders. A346 to circumnavigate ETOPS on the 773ER for over-water routes....
 
mNeo
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RE: Qantas Long Haul Fleet Decision Due Dec. 7, So..?

Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:16 am

I love how people say that the A388 is unproven. it hasent entered service yet thats why QF bought them, to get a good deal. The 741 did not meet initial expectations. PA pilots had a hard time flying the plane and the engines even fell off.

Quoting Cruiser (Reply 52):
I hate to tout Boeings' horn here, but they promise what they can deliver. Unfortunately, Airbus is overpromising and under delivering!

The only plane that was a broken promise was the A340 series and that was due to the engines not being produced. UA and BA both had problems with the initial 777A models, but that wount stop them brom buying Boeing again. When a manufacturer releases such a big plane as the A388, 741 or 772 there will be a period where there will be problems.

The people who run QF are smart enough not to just take the basic facts but also costs that A netters would never think about. Thats why they get paid millions and we dont.
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Alitalia744
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RE: Qantas Long Haul Fleet Decision Due Dec. 7, So..?

Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:19 am

Quoting MNeo (Reply 54):
The 741 did not meet initial expectations. PA pilots had a hard time flying the plane and the engines even fell off.

The engines fell off? REALLY? proof please????
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Sydscott
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RE: Qantas Long Haul Fleet Decision Due Dec. 7, So..?

Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:54 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 48):
Uncertainties have been reduced to very small percentages.

But they are still there. The proof of the pudding is in the eating as they say which is why I don't think they will make a follow on order yet. Until they are flying it with full passenger and cargo loads between Sydney, London and Los Angeles they wont know for sure if they have the operational issues bedded down. There isn't exactly a flood of new orders coming the A380's way so QF can afford to take their with the follow on order and bed down any operational issues when it gets into revenue service. But I think they will order more eventually.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 49):
My opinion remains: that is too large a gap to leave unfilled

Not really, the gap between the 767 and the 747 was too big to leave unfilled. Hence you have A330's. The gap between the A330/787 the 773/747 and the A380 isn't all that much incrementally. QF will have appropriate numbers of aircraft with appropriate ranges to mix and match them to solve any gap problem they have.

Quoting MNeo (Reply 54):
I love how people say that the A388 is unproven.

Has the A380 entered Revenue service yet for an airline??? NO, therefore it is commercially unproven which is what I said. Getting a good deal is all well and good but at the end of the day the airlines buying the A380 wont know what it's like for their operations until they are flying pax and cargo on scheduled routes. Once they are happy with it on scheduled routes we will see options being exercised and I personally think you will see QF firm up options for more A380's. Boeing has missed the boat with this one.
 
Cruiser
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RE: Qantas Long Haul Fleet Decision Due Dec. 7, So..?

Thu Dec 01, 2005 12:04 pm

Quoting MNeo (Reply 54):
The only plane that was a broken promise was the A340 series and that was due to the engines not being produced. UA and BA both had problems with the initial 777A models, but that wount stop them brom buying Boeing again. When a manufacturer releases such a big plane as the A388, 741 or 772 there will be a period where there will be problems.

Well, last I checked, the 777-200ER came in under weight. The A380, well, Airbus announced triumphantly that it was only 1.5% over what they had promised a couple of weeks ago.

The 777 went into service on the originally agreed-upon date. Sure the IFE wasn't in, but it still flew the passengers from point A to point B. The A380 will enter service 6 months after it was promised...I certainly would call this a broken promise! What made it worse was that Airbus didn't admit to this! A week before they announced the 6 month delays, Airbus told SQ that they would still be getting the planes on time. Naturally, SQ was extremely upset when a week later they were told that the A380 would enter service 6 months late.

The 777 problems that you speak of represent minor teething problems in the grand scheme of things. No real broken promises! Airbus has also had teething problems with the A340-600's. Nothing new...but it is truly the actual promises that Airbus makes that is the problem.

For more information on this, check out the thread about EK's warning for Airbus if they do go with the A350. Bascially, EK would go with the 787 if they can get it in a reasonable time, because of the past underperforming aircraft! Kind of a smart press release after buying 42 777's! Emirates Wary Of Airbus Promises (by Mham001 Nov 28 2005 in Civil Aviation)

Don't get me wrong, all planes have teething problems, but Airbus tends to overpromise and underdeliver on those promises!!!

James
James
Leahy on Per Seat Costs: "Have you seen the B-2 fly-by at almost US$1bn a copy? It has only 2 seats!"
 
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sunrisevalley
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RE: Qantas Long Haul Fleet Decision Due Dec. 7, So

Thu Dec 01, 2005 12:25 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 39):
What if Qantas has come to the conclusion directs flights to LHR are not a good idea at this moment.

I have it on excellent authority that this is for sure, also JFK, that the decision has been made.

Quoting PyroGX41487 (Reply 53):
A346 to circumnavigate ETOPS on the 773ER for over-water routes....

Where does QF have an ETOPS issue? They are flying ETOPS all over the Pacific with 767-300ER's They presently use the -400 on the JNB
route and they dont fly to South America, and if they wanted to they could use a -400.
 
kaitak744
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RE: Qantas Long Haul Fleet Decision Due Dec. 7, So..?

Thu Dec 01, 2005 12:56 pm

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 55):
The engines fell off? REALLY? proof please????

Early 747s did have issues with engines detaching from the pylons. It was resolved on the -200.
 
Shenzhen
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RE: Qantas Long Haul Fleet Decision Due Dec. 7, So..?

Thu Dec 01, 2005 1:43 pm

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 59):
Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 55):
The engines fell off? REALLY? proof please????

ELAl Freighter in Amsterdam I believe.

Cheers
 
StickShaker
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RE: Qantas Long Haul Fleet Decision Due Dec. 7, So..?

Thu Dec 01, 2005 6:08 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 49):
552.5 sq meters for the WhaleJet vs. 330.4 sq meters for the B777-300ER. That's a 67.2% increase. My opinion remains: that is too large a gap to leave unfilled.

It's an interesting dilemma as to whether that gap justifies the introduction of another aircraft type. My feeling is that QF will not order the 748 as it wont let them offer the same product(s) as the 380 due to not having the same amount of floor space per passenger. QF have ordered the 380 to keep up with product offerings by SQ, EK and others rather than for incremental improvements in seat/mile costs.

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 50):
787-3 - There is no other widebody suited better for inter-Australian and trans-Tasman routes.

Agree 100% - cant help being curious as to why some think it may be left out. QF need a short haul widebody and the 783 is the only candidate. They (QF) could "abuse" 789's by using them for shorthaul but would incur higher seat/mile costs plus the 783 has a smaller wing span allowing use of 767 size gates.

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 50):
There will be options/purchase rights included for 777-200LR. QF may order 7 frames for their ORD/JFK/DFW routes. Once Boeing proves that SYD-LHR can be done nonstop with profitable load, they will order more.

I get the feeling that QF will order the 772LR even if it doesn't quite satisfy their SYD-LHR requirement as the aircraft would be very useful on many other potential routes.

Quoting PyroGX41487 (Reply 53):
I actually see a large A346 order, and 772LR orders. A346 to circumnavigate ETOPS on the 773ER for over-water routes..

QF have a lot of experience with ETOPS and understand it well. I cant see them basing a large fleet decision around a handful of ETOPS routes. They can always hang on to a few 744's if they really need some 4 holers for JNB and the like.

Quoting Hamlet69 (Reply 21):
- The A350 will also be ordered (though I have not heard -800 or -900). These aircraft will go to some combination of JQ Int'l, AO and possibly FJ.

This part is very interesting. There have been several hints that the existing 330 fleet will be transferred to "JQ Heavy". The 350 would fit in very neatly with an existing 330 fleet.


Roll on 7th December.



Cheers,
StickShaker
 
anstar
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RE: Qantas Long Haul Fleet Decision Due Dec. 7, So..?

Thu Dec 01, 2005 6:21 pm

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 51):
I reckon the difference in QF's actual configuration will be under 50% though. Once you consider the walls of the A380's upper deck will curve in a lot, and that the A380 will naturally be more luxuriously configured, ie less dense.

I'd imagine 50% is manageable with fleet rotation in most circumstances. It's not as if the difference between the 747 and the A333 is small.

May also sway on how the A380 and 748 finally perform.

Remember also that the A380 will be 3 class with 480 odd seats, the 773er would most likely be 2 class, so the gap narrows.

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 56):
Not really, the gap between the 767 and the 747 was too big to leave unfilled. Hence you have A330's. The gap between the A330/787 the 773/747 and the A380 isn't all that much incrementally. QF will have appropriate numbers of aircraft with appropriate ranges to mix and match them to solve any gap problem they have

agreed
 
Shenzhen
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RE: Qantas Long Haul Fleet Decision Due Dec. 7, So..?

Thu Dec 01, 2005 6:27 pm

Quoting StickShaker (Reply 61):
QF have ordered the 380 to keep up with product offerings by SQ, EK and others rather than for incremental improvements in seat/mile costs.

I believe that Qantas were one of the driving forces to get Airbus to offer the A3XX, along with SIA and BA. I don't think they purchased to keep up with SQ or EK.

Cheers
 
bill142
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RE: Qantas Long Haul Fleet Decision Due Dec. 7, So..?

Thu Dec 01, 2005 6:49 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 16):
They'll probably be asked to keep it quiet until John Howard can announce the decision on a suitable 'political' occasion

Now why would John Howard announce the order? QF is no long a government owned or contolled entity.
I would be very unimpressed if John Howard were to annouce the order.
 
Sydscott
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RE: Qantas Long Haul Fleet Decision Due Dec. 7, So..?

Thu Dec 01, 2005 7:23 pm

Quoting SunriseValley (Reply 58):
They are flying ETOPS all over the Pacific with 767-300ER's

By flying Etops all over the Pacific I'm assuming you mean primarily between Australia and Asia?? In that case the Etops limits for twins aren't all that bad because there are plenty of places to divert to along the way if an aircraft gets into trouble. The ETOPS will be an issue people are contending that twins will eventually be flying to JNB and other places as replacements for 747's. Those people are ignoring the fact that the 744's are going to be around for quite some time yet and by the time they are ready to be replaces any ETOPS issues will have been well and truly resolved.

Quoting StickShaker (Reply 61):
QF have ordered the 380 to keep up with product offerings by SQ, EK and others rather than for incremental improvements in seat/mile costs.

Um, they've also ordered it because apparently they think they can fill her up on runs to LAX and LHR and make bigger bucks than on a 747.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 16):
They'll probably be asked to keep it quiet until John Howard can announce the decision on a suitable 'political' occasion

Sorry but we're not China and we don't have an aviation supply corporation to make announcements at politically appropriate times. The Government will have nothing whatsoever to say about the Qantas order other than when it blows out our Balance of Payments problem when they get delivered.  Smile

Quoting SunriseValley (Reply 58):
also JFK, that the decision has been made.

I haven't heard of the JFK one before. Dallas however has been mentioned quite alot lately and that makes more sense as a link to AA than a JFK route.
 
zvezda
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RE: Qantas Long Haul Fleet Decision Due Dec. 7, So..?

Thu Dec 01, 2005 7:45 pm

Quoting Cruiser (Reply 57):
The A380 will enter service 6 months after it was promised...

You forgot the first slip of 2 months. The WhaleJet will enter service at least 8 months late. March -> May -> November is the sequence of promised delivery dates.
 
StickShaker
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RE: Qantas Long Haul Fleet Decision Due Dec. 7, So..?

Thu Dec 01, 2005 8:02 pm

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 65):
Um, they've also ordered it because apparently they think they can fill her up on runs to LAX and LHR and make bigger bucks than on a 747.

I have no doubt that QF have done their sums very thoroughly before committing several billion dollars on the 380 order.
I just cant help being cynical that QF might not have ordered the aircraft if it had not been ordered by two of their most ferocious competitors - SQ and EK.
While QF are very technically competent they dont (until now at least) have a reputation as being innovators. They only reluctantly introduced IFE in their long haul aircraft after all of their competitors did so.
My assessment might be a bit harsh - maybe this upcoming order will provide a fleet mix capable of some innovative routes (not just SYD-LHR) not already offered by QF's competitors.


Cheers,
StickShaker
 
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ClassicLover
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RE: Qantas Long Haul Fleet Decision Due Dec. 7, So..?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 12:37 am

From The Australian, 2 December 2005 -

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au.../0,5744,17428629%255E23349,00.html

1. The Qantas board meets next Wednesday and an announcement is expected that day.

2. These improvements mean the 777-200LR will be capable of a Sydney-London non-stop flight with an economical payload, Qantas insiders say.

3. the race for the larger order, between the 787 and A350, is closer run, with the 787 a short nose in front.

4. Also working in the 787's favour is the Qantas internal view that the "next thing" for airlines will be a replacement for the 737 and A320. The Qantas view is that it will be a 130-230 seat version of the 787 with its composite fuselage.

There is no mention at all of a B747-800 order.

Interesting stuff. Bring on Wednesday, I say!

Trent.
I do enjoy a spot of flying, especially when it's not in economy!
 
FriendlySkies
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RE: Qantas Long Haul Fleet Decision Due Dec. 7, So..?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 12:55 am

I'll just say what most people here are saying...this is Boeing's order to lose (and based on their sales this year, I don't see them losing). Can't wait to see 777's and 787s in QF's livery!
 
Sydscott
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RE: Qantas Long Haul Fleet Decision Due Dec. 7, So..?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 6:32 am

Quoting StickShaker (Reply 67):
While QF are very technically competent they dont (until now at least) have a reputation as being innovators.

No innovation?? You realise that Qantas was the first airline to introduce a business class??

Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 68):
Bring on Wednesday, I say!

Indeed!!!! That'll put all the speculation to bed.

On a separate note, you've got to love this ad for Jetstar Asia.

http://priceless420.com/Pr113005landinggear.jpg

[Edited 2005-12-01 22:51:55]
 
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BlueSky1976
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RE: Qantas Long Haul Fleet Decision Due Dec. 7, So..?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 7:18 am

Now that I think about it... what would be the chance of QF introducing more nonstops to Western Europe with 777-200LR? Is it possible they could order more of those for, say SYD-CDG, SYD-FRA, SYD-AMS and SYD-ZRH? Along with SYD-LHR, SYD-DFW, SYD-ORD and SYD-JFK that would probably make the biggest 777-200LR order to date... That would give them opportunity to avoid feeding passengers from those destinations thru Heathrow and supplement their 747-400 one-stop to FRA... Anyone?
The queen of the skies is dead.
 
Gemuser
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RE: Qantas Long Haul Fleet Decision Due Dec. 7, So..?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 8:24 pm

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 71):
what would be the chance of QF introducing more nonstops to Western Europe with 777-200LR? Is it possible they could order more of those for, say SYD-CDG, SYD-FRA, SYD-AMS and SYD-ZRH? Along with SYD-LHR, SYD-DFW, SYD-ORD and SYD-JFK t

SYD-CDG: QF is restricted to 3 flights a week by the French, they wanted to serve CDG daily with B744 so the B777 is unlikley to effect that.

SYD-FRA: would allow QF to over fly SIN, is that a "good thing"? Might, just might allow MEL-FRA.

SYD-AMS/ZRH/etc: I doubt there is sufficient traffic/yeild. It is generally more profitable to serve via LHR/FRA/CDG. The real compertation here is the Asian carriers that hub between Europe & Oz.

SYD-DFW: Almost a certainty, but COULD be with A380, if its range meets projections (8500nm) with an economic payload. COULD also include MEL-DFW.

SYD-ORD/JFK: not very likley, possible but dont count on it, particularly when DFW goes ahead.
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Beaucaire
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RE: Qantas Long Haul Fleet Decision Due Dec. 7, So..?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 9:45 pm

Why wasting 73 (including mine...) posts about a topic that is not real so far ?
Qantas will decide sooner or later about an order -so the heck- why not commenting it once the deal has been announced ?
If they choose B or A - both make good planes .
One should stop predending that because this order won or lost any of the two major plane-makers wil go belly-up.It would be a terrific win for any of them-but then - if Boeing catches too many orders,they can't deliver in decent time-frames for the next three to four years and inevitably orders will be shifted to the competition ,simply because of unavailable delivery slots.
If I read all those stupid posts literally enjoying problems with the A380 or any other aircraft- if you don't like civil aviation - so stop posting negative comments about a "competetive "plane.
Who knows what problems the 787 will have ?? -I hope none -but so far everybody cheered about the advanced perforamnce-caracteristics of a plane that is not build yet!
I love all aircraft regardless of make or performance -simply because flying remains a dream and those machines get us somewhat closer to convert those dreams into reality.
Whe should become adult and stop hitting on each other because of manufacturer preferences....
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
Rj111
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RE: Qantas Long Haul Fleet Decision Due Dec. 7, So..?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 11:33 pm

Quoting StickShaker (Reply 67):
I just cant help being cynical that QF might not have ordered the aircraft if it had not been ordered by two of their most ferocious competitors - SQ and EK.


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Photo © Sam Chui



QF can definately take advantage of the A380's capacity, just take a look at this photo of LAX.
 
atmx2000
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RE: Qantas Long Haul Fleet Decision Due Dec. 7, So..?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 11:58 pm

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 74):
QF can definately take advantage of the A380's capacity, just take a look at this photo of LAX.

Well, they can as long as the competition from the US side is weak (or codesharing with QF). If SQ ever gets AUS-US route rights, QF might have to do something other than simply dump passengers into AA's LAX network. In that case they'll have to carefully consider what their options are.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
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garpd
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RE: Qantas Long Haul Fleet Decision Due Dec. 7, So..?

Sat Dec 03, 2005 5:38 am

Quoting Shenzhen (Reply 60):

ELAl Freighter in Amsterdam I believe.

One incident in countless millions of rotations and flight hours made by the 747. Hardly conclusive!
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garpd
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RE: Qantas Long Haul Fleet Decision Due Dec. 7, So..?

Sat Dec 03, 2005 5:45 am

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 74):
QF can definately take advantage of the A380's capacity, just take a look at this photo of LAX.

Ok... so QF send multiple 747s to LAX daily. Ever considered that this is precisely what they want?
Who's to say they won't send the same number of A380s to LAX daily? They have the slots after all.

I think QF are like BA. Preferring to offer a selection of frequencies, over stuffing everyone into 2 flights a day.
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ikramerica
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RE: Qantas Long Haul Fleet Decision Due Dec. 7, So..?

Sat Dec 03, 2005 5:56 am

Quoting GARPD (Reply 77):
They have the slots after all.

They could send 100 if they wanted. LAX doesn't have slots.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
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garpd
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RE: Qantas Long Haul Fleet Decision Due Dec. 7, So..?

Sat Dec 03, 2005 6:06 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 78):
They could send 100 if they wanted. LAX doesn't have slots.

Ok, so what system does LAX use to allocate use of its runways/terminals?
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Rj111
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RE: Qantas Long Haul Fleet Decision Due Dec. 7, So..?

Sat Dec 03, 2005 6:34 am

Quoting GARPD (Reply 77):
Ok... so QF send multiple 747s to LAX daily. Ever considered that this is precisely what they want?
Who's to say they won't send the same number of A380s to LAX daily? They have the slots after all.

I think QF are like BA. Preferring to offer a selection of frequencies, over stuffing everyone into 2 flights a day.

They won't sacrifice frequency, they'll probably replace a few flights with A380's. You're right and we agree.

The point was that the is a lot of traffic between the two destinations.

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 75):
Well, they can as long as the competition from the US side is weak (or codesharing with QF). If SQ ever gets AUS-US route rights, QF might have to do something other than simply dump passengers into AA's LAX network. In that case they'll have to carefully consider what their options are.

Weren't SQ rejected recently? QF are considering DFW with the 772LR i hear.

Do you think they'll go for NYC too? Even if the location means there's not so much opportunity for connections, i'd imagine there would be a fair flow of O&D there, and it's quite a prestigious destination.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Qantas Long Haul Fleet Decision Due Dec. 7, So..?

Sat Dec 03, 2005 1:17 pm

Quoting GARPD (Reply 79):
Ok, so what system does LAX use to allocate use of its runways/terminals?

That can better be answered by experts here on A.net, but QF could send more planes to LAX should they desire. One airline need not give up a "slot" for another to add a flight.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
Simpilicity
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RE: Qantas Long Haul Fleet Decision Due Dec. 7, So..?

Sat Dec 03, 2005 1:22 pm

too much govt interference full stop.

What's the best politician? A DEAD ONE !!!
 
Sydscott
Posts: 3513
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RE: Qantas Long Haul Fleet Decision Due Dec. 7, So..?

Sat Dec 03, 2005 2:33 pm

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 75):
If SQ ever gets AUS-US route rights, QF might have to do something other than simply dump passengers into AA's LAX network

Why?? SQ will start either SYD-LAX or SYD-SFO if given the choice. You wont see any originality there.
 
United Airline
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RE: Qantas Long Haul Fleet Decision Due Dec. 7, So..?

Sat Dec 03, 2005 4:03 pm

QF will likely order the B 747-8 to replace their B 747-400s in the future but not now. From what I heard the B 747-400s will stay for a long time to come and the B 747-300s will stay for another 5-7 years (They might want to get rid of them sooner than expected since they are gas guzzlers).

THey will probably order some B 777-300ERs for growth, B 777-200LRs for ultra long haul routes as well as the B 787 for the B 767 replacement
 
atmx2000
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RE: Qantas Long Haul Fleet Decision Due Dec. 7, So..?

Sat Dec 03, 2005 7:46 pm

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 83):
Why?? SQ will start either SYD-LAX or SYD-SFO if given the choice. You wont see any originality there.

Strong competition on the US-AUS routes would likely lead to lower over all marketshare and possibly volume (if lower prices don't boost traffic) on US-AUS flights for QF. QF might have to differentiate their product more to retain marketshare and passenger traffic volumes and maintain revenue. Direct flights to more locations in the US would be one way of doing so. QF would be able to offer something to non-West Coast O&D passengers that SQ won't if.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
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keesje
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RE: Qantas Long Haul Fleet Decision Due Dec. 7, So..?

Sat Dec 03, 2005 8:12 pm

The faces of an Airbus team at a recent aviation industry dinner in Sydney showed the strain of winning orders amid the biggest airline buying spree in history.
Led by its Australian vice president for the Pacific, Rod Mahoney, Airbus left the party before dessert to go back to its office for an all-night session of presumed price shaving on its bid for a Qantas order worth at least US$16 billion.


http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/worl...biz/archives/2005/12/03/2003282843
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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garpd
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RE: Qantas Long Haul Fleet Decision Due Dec. 7, So..?

Sat Dec 03, 2005 8:35 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 86):
presumed price shaving on its bid for a Qantas order worth at least US$16 billion.

Airbus' famous (or infamous) answer to any situation  Yeah sure
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sunrisevalley
Posts: 5392
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RE: Qantas Long Haul Fleet Decision Due Dec. 7, So

Sat Dec 03, 2005 9:06 pm

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 80):
Do you think they'll go for NYC too?


I believe with a fair degree of certainty that LHR and JFK will be the two non-stop destinations, initially. Both are major commerce centres and the business traveller is the target for this non-stop service.
 
JetMaster
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RE: Qantas Long Haul Fleet Decision Due Dec. 7, So..?

Sat Dec 03, 2005 9:07 pm

Quoting GARPD (Reply 77):
I think QF are like BA. Preferring to offer a selection of frequencies, over stuffing everyone into 2 flights a day.

It's not a question of preferrence for many airlines when they use large aircraft on certain routes. You speak as if others had the same choice as BA does.  Yeah sure

Quoting GARPD (Reply 87):
Airbus' famous (or infamous) answer to any situation

Could you be more precise, please? Some more lines than your famous (or infamous) one-liners would probably help to understand your point...IF there is any, of course...


Regards,
JM
The Journey is my Destination
 
Korg747
Posts: 502
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RE: Qantas Long Haul Fleet Decision Due Dec. 7, So..?

Sat Dec 03, 2005 9:25 pm

Quoting JetMaster (Reply 89):
Could you be more precise, please? Some more lines than your famous (or infamous) one-liners would probably help to understand your point...IF there is any, of course...

His point is clear. Airbus will Win this order depending on the prices they give ONLY. While Boeing can Win this depending on the pricing and Aircraft performance(which it may Appears that Boeing has QF in the bag for this).
Please excuse my English!
 
JetMaster
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RE: Qantas Long Haul Fleet Decision Due Dec. 7, So..?

Sat Dec 03, 2005 10:24 pm

Quoting Korg747 (Reply 90):
His point is clear.

It's quite clear Airbus can win the QF deal only on price. However that's not what I meant. I asked him to precisely explain what he means with "any situation".


Regards,
JM
The Journey is my Destination
 
MidnightMike
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RE: Qantas Long Haul Fleet Decision Due Dec. 7, So..?

Sat Dec 03, 2005 11:59 pm

Quote:
Meantime, Airbus has infuriated airlines with delays in the giant A380 program. Singapore Airlines CEO Chew Choon Seng, speaking on the German TV program Focus, said: "Airbus took some time to acknowledge the delay in the timetable for the A380 first delivery. I would have expected more sincerity."

That comment came after Mr Chew and Qantas CEO Geoff Dixon sat through a dinner at June's International Air Transport Association conference in Tokyo, where Airbus's Mr Leahy told an amazed audience of airline CEOs the A380 delays were due to special airline specifications.

That glib remark irritated airline CEOs, who pointed out that the features they were specifying were nothing compared with the McDonald's, duty-free shops etc that Airbus was touting in its advertising and marketing presentations for the A380.

Maybe not the best idea in the world to piss off your customers, or, even future customers. Even if it were true, tone it down, to place the blame directly on the customers shoulders, bad move.
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ikramerica
Posts: 15087
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RE: Qantas Long Haul Fleet Decision Due Dec. 7, So..?

Sun Dec 04, 2005 12:26 am

Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 92):
That glib remark irritated airline CEOs, who pointed out that the features they were specifying were nothing compared with the McDonald's, duty-free shops etc that Airbus was touting in its advertising and marketing presentations for the A380.

Gee, I must be a pretty good "armchair CEO" then, because that was my initial reaction to Airbus blaming the delays on the customization needs of it's customers (see past threads).

"Why offer cutting edge interiors if you can't deliver them, and why promise them and then turn around and blame your customer for wanting them? Was it all just smoke and mirrors to start with? Did you hope customers would ignore the options and just order a plane packed with cheap seats and nothing more?"

I believe the answer to that question is yes, airbus wanted to offer the moon but hoped that, for simplicity/weight/CASM issues, customers would just install 550 seats and no extras and be done with it...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
Joni
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RE: Qantas Long Haul Fleet Decision Due Dec. 7, So..?

Sun Dec 04, 2005 6:29 am

Quoting Cruiser (Reply 52):
I hate to tout Boeings' horn here, but they promise what they can deliver. Unfortunately, Airbus is overpromising and under delivering! Airlines are beginning to see a pattern here that is disturbing.

This is getting tired, and an example of herd behaviour: people believe what they want to believe and keep repeating it as fact over and over.

If there was merit to this claim, then Boeing would walk over Airbus in sales and we wouldn't see the 50-50 split in market share.
 
NAV20
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RE: Qantas Long Haul Fleet Decision Due Dec. 7, So..?

Sun Dec 04, 2005 10:09 pm

Quoting Joni (Reply 94):
If there was merit to this claim, then Boeing would walk over Airbus in sales and we wouldn't see the 50-50 split in market share.

Really think any idea of a '50-50 split' is out-moded, Joni? On announced orders so far this year, the figures are:-

Boeing 800, Airbus 494, total 1,294 - split 62%/38%.

More important, in the most profitable sector - midsize widebodies - the figures are:-

Boeing 294, Airbus 81, total 375 - split 78%/22%.

http://www.eads.net/xml/content/OF00000000400004/8/26/40986268.pdf

http://active.boeing.com/commercial/orders/
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
columba
Posts: 5237
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:12 pm

RE: Qantas Long Haul Fleet Decision Due Dec. 7, So..?

Sun Dec 04, 2005 10:39 pm

Quoting JetMaster (Reply 23):
Quoting Pilotdude09 (Reply 5):
No way!!! was ruled out ages ago, who wants a fuel guzzler??

What an amateurish comment...


Regards,
JM

Would not look too bad, although I doubt we will see an A340-600 in Qantas livery
http://www.cardatabase.net/modifieda...earch/photo_search.php?id=00001749
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
columba
Posts: 5237
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:12 pm

RE: Qantas Long Haul Fleet Decision Due Dec. 7, So

Sun Dec 04, 2005 11:13 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 48):
At the same time all 787 & 747-8 data is taken as a given..

You know it is a given fact that Boeings ALWAYS are better then expected that is a given fact. Boeing is a blessed company that never produce failures.
The 757-300 and 767-400 were only produced for two airlines because Boeing would do everything for its beloved customers even produce a niche aircraft.
Airbusses on the other hand are produced by lazy french man and socialist Germans who don´t work half a year therefore Airbusses are not delivered on time and have serious problems of being terribly underpowered and unsafe.
But that is no problem for Airbus because they bribe their customers to buy these shitty airplanes with European tax money or give them away for free. Lufthansa and Air France have to buy Airbus by law, the extra costs for the fuel gazzlers will also paid by the tax payer.
Signed 50 % of a.net
P.S. That was meant ironically

Quoting PyroGX41487 (Reply 53):
I actually see a large A346 order, and 772LR orders. A346 to circumnavigate ETOPS on the 773ER for over-water routes....

There will definitely no split order of A346 and 773ERs. I would bet my money on the 777-300ER
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
NYC777
Posts: 5103
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 3:00 am

RE: Qantas Long Haul Fleet Decision Due Dec. 7, So..?

Mon Dec 05, 2005 1:53 am

Quoting Columba (Reply 97):
You know it is a given fact that Boeings ALWAYS are better then expected that is a given fact. Boeing is a blessed company that never produce failures.
The 757-300 and 767-400 were only produced for two airlines because Boeing would do everything for its beloved customers even produce a niche aircraft.
Airbusses on the other hand are produced by lazy french man and socialist Germans who don´t work half a year therefore Airbusses are not delivered on time and have serious problems of being terribly underpowered and unsafe.
But that is no problem for Airbus because they bribe their customers to buy these shitty airplanes with European tax money or give them away for free. Lufthansa and Air France have to buy Airbus by law, the extra costs for the fuel gazzlers will also paid by the tax payer.
Signed 50 % of a.net
P.S. That was meant ironically

 Yeah sure



Dude, give it a rest.  Yeah sure  Yeah sure  Yeah sure
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
columba
Posts: 5237
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:12 pm

RE: Qantas Long Haul Fleet Decision Due Dec. 7, So

Mon Dec 05, 2005 4:03 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 98):
Dude, give it a rest.

Sorry, but sadly this is what you read here by some people and not meant ironically. Boeing superior to Airbus and Airbus inferior in all aspects - nothing in between.
I love both and defend both when there is either a Airbus bashing or a Boeing bashing thread. Sadly the pro Boeing guys usually seem to be more agressive then the pro Airbus people on this board
Enough sad.......

I guess Boeing will. Air France and KLM are a good example of using the A330 alongside with the 777 other airlines do the same and likely it will happen with Qantas as well. Besides an 777-300ER in Qantas livery will look awesome.......
Qantas will have a good mix of Airbus and Boeing planes, they will have the planes which are the best on each segment, A380, 747-400, A330, 777 and 787 and 737NG and A320s (Jetstar).
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong

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