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leigh pilgrim
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 4:06 am

Design another crap aircraft, the A360, 'the most un-efficiant aircraft in the Air'....................and bung 4 fuel thirsty engines on it!, sorry that was harsh!

OK heres a question, fuel prices rise, airlines have spend billions on the A380, what happens now that the efficiant 747-8 (based on the Dreamliner technology) has been offered?
 
airfrnt
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 4:07 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 54):
If QF does go with Boeing on the 777 (and 787) then Airbus might start looking at a clean sheet of paper to deliver a better challenger - especially after CX went with the 777.

At this point the 350 is launched. The worst thing that Airbus could do would be a clean sheet design at this point. This would result in another year delay on the plane, more customers going over to Boeing and current A350 customers not being happy that their slots got pushed back.

Airbus made their bed. Now they need to add pillows stat or they may discover it's quite unconfortable.

Quoting N79969 (Reply 53):
I think a shakeup at Airbus is on the horizon. The EADS board would be wise in my view if they get rid of Foregard at the next opportunity for a number of reasons. He does not possess the clear-eyed leadership needed to act in the CEO role. He is overly political and conniving.

I really doubt this. I think the public disagreement a few weeks ago between Leahy and the CEOs makes for bad press, but Leahy and Goregard took the airliner game from a American ballpark and made it international.
 
A319XFW
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 4:13 am

Quoting Leigh pilgrim (Reply 56):
K heres a question, fuel prices rise, airlines have spend billions on the A380, what happens now that the efficiant 747-8 (based on the Dreamliner technology) has been offered?

I know I shouldn't go here, but hasn't the A350 got the 787 engines... and as the A350 is a warmed over 330 then surely 747-8 is a warmed over 747....

I think this was discussed in plent of other threads - they have different (albeit overlapping) markets. If you want to get 555 people from A-B use A380, 450 from A-B use 787-8.....
 
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glideslope
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 4:15 am

Quoting Leigh pilgrim (Reply 56):
Design another crap aircraft, the A360, 'the most un-efficiant aircraft in the Air'....................and bung 4 fuel thirsty engines on it!, sorry that was harsh!

Sometimes the Truth Hurts........
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
N79969
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 4:16 am

Quoting A319XFW (Reply 59):
I know I shouldn't go here, but hasn't the A350 got the 787 engines... and as the A350 is a warmed over 330 then surely 747-8 is a warmed over 747....

But I think you are right. Even Boeing concedes the changes in 747-8 are not radical. They are not running ads in which they claim it will be the "most advanced 4 engine airplane."
 
BoomBoom
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 4:22 am

Quoting CCA (Reply 46):
A good story from the Australian regarding the Boeing - Airbus battle.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au.../0,5744,17428629%255E23349,00.html



Quote:
Qantas wants to use the larger 787-9 on what are termed "long thin routes" across the Pacific, linking Sydney with Seattle or San Francisco; Adelaide to Los Angeles; and to operate west coast Australia to London non-stop.

Its smaller and lighter brother, the 787-8, will perform the Brisbane-Sydney-Melbourne CityFlyer every thirty minutes.

Shouldn't that be the 787-3?

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 54):
Only Apple comes up with anything as interesting

OH NO! What are you trying to do? Start an Apple-Microsoft war here? Big grin
Our eyes are open, our eyes are open--wide, wide, wide...
 
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N328KF
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 4:24 am

Quoting A319XFW (Reply 59):
I know I shouldn't go here, but hasn't the A350 got the 787 engines... and as the A350 is a warmed over 330 then surely 747-8 is a warmed over 747....

Yes, but Boeing is not running ads in Aviation Week insinuating that they have the most advanced jumbo in the world. Airbus could run an ad such as this referring to the A380, and nobody would dispute them. However, the 787/A350 case is far different, and Airbus' A350 ads just make them look silly.

Quoting JetMaster (Reply 62):
And the point of that childish nonsense is? Simply provoking or showing us your total lack of aviation knowledge? What a shame this forum is turning into...

Preach on, brother Udo.
“In the age of information, ignorance is a choice.”
-Donny Miller
 
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Stitch
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 4:27 am

Quoting A319XFW (Reply 59):
I know I shouldn't go here, but hasn't the A350 got the 787 engines... and as the A350 is a warmed over 330 then surely 747-8 is a warmed over 747...

Sure it is. But is that a bad thing? The A330 is a pretty nice small-to-midsized widebody twin and the 744 is a pretty nice large widebody four-banger. It makes sense to leverage both if you can do so, while adding new technologies that make them better then they were and more appealing to operators of the current types.
 
TaromA380
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 4:28 am

Quoting UAL747-600 (Thread starter):
If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fire Leahy ? Big grin
 
N79969
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 4:30 am

Quoting TaromA380 (Reply 66):
Fire Leahy ?

He is one of the last guys they should fire...for all his faults he is credited for their sales successes. For the reasons I mention above, I think Forgeard ought to be forced out.
 
dl021
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 4:32 am

Quoting Zeus419 (Reply 17):
go for something truly innovative such as V-tail, or blended wing, all-CFRP config etc., to achieve a total step-change in fuel efficiency and operating economics.

That would be very impressive. I'd love to see airplane design for the civil market move beyond the cigar tube.

Quoting BoogyJay (Reply 38):
Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 34):
he slogan found its genesis in Toulouse

Nope. In Farnborough. Yet it was on an Airbus ad.

Well, that A-346 landed in Farnborough with that slogan on the side, so I don't think that slogan came from there. The plane had just left the paint shop in Toulouse.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
NYC777
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 4:35 am

Quoting TaromA380 (Reply 66):
Fire Leahy ?

That's a good first start!
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
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N328KF
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 4:36 am

Quoting N79969 (Reply 67):
He is one of the last guys they should fire...for all his faults he is credited for their sales successes. For the reasons I mention above, I think Forgeard ought to be forced out.

Yeah, as much of a turd as I think Leahy is, he does what he's supposed to do. Eventually, however, customers will realize that you are trying to pitch a compromised product.
“In the age of information, ignorance is a choice.”
-Donny Miller
 
JetMaster
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 4:39 am

Quoting Leigh pilgrim (Reply 56):
Design another crap aircraft, the A360, 'the most un-efficiant aircraft in the Air'....................and bung 4 fuel thirsty engines on it!, sorry that was harsh!

That wasn't harsh, but just ridiculous.

Quoting Leigh pilgrim (Reply 56):
OK heres a question, fuel prices rise, airlines have spend billions on the A380, what happens now that the efficiant 747-8 (based on the Dreamliner technology) has been offered?

The B747-8 is NOT based on Dreamliner technology. It is only enhanced with some B787 features. If airlines want to carry 450-550 (in three classes) pax with large premium sections then the A380 is the way to go. The B747-8 will be limited to 450 pax, in high density configuration (three classes).

Quoting Glideslope (Reply 58):
It's sooo nice to see a post that is Reality Based. Thank You.

So what exactly in that silly statement is based on reality? Can you present any facts to support that theory? Well, of course you cannot - we know your track record.  Smile

Quoting N328KF (Reply 64):
Preach on, brother Udo.

What's your point? Apart from showing your apparent agreement with certain childish and provoking posters' drivel?


Regards,
JM
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Stitch
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 5:03 am

Leahy's job is to sell, not design and build.

If Airbus products don't deliver, then perhaps the head of their Commerical Aircraft program and some of their senior engineers need to be handed their walking papers.

Leahy is an asset - not just to Airbus, but also to Boeing, who took many of his aspects to heart and are now reaping those benefits with hundreds of 737 and 777 orders this year.
 
dutchjet
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 5:07 am

Short answer to the original question - if QF goes with a 777/787 order as is expected, Airbus will go forward and life will go on. It will be a happy day in Chicago and Seattle, and a major disappointment in Toulouse.

But the entire situation and the series of event that have transpired over the past years is nothing short of fascinating. A few short years ago, it seemed that Boeing had gotten it all wrong while Airbus was selling aircraft at an amazing rate. Now, there seems to be some real trouble over at Airbus: aside from the A345/A346 programs having trouble landing new sales, the A380 program is running behind schedule, the A350 has yet to sign up certain airlines that were expected to be early customers for the type (think EK), and key customers such as EK, QF and SQ have let it be known that they have some real issues concerning Airbus. Can Airbus work all of this out? Of course it can, but Airbus has certainly handed Boeing an opportunity to regain its position in the market. Its simply amazing how things change.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 5:14 am

Airbus is learning the harsh lesson that when orders dry up for an airframe, they go "poof" and just disappear.

Look at the 767 sales after the A332 proved itself, very few.
The 733 was in deep trouble after the A320-200, but B saw the writing and launched the 737NG. Sing with me: what a difference a wing makes...  Wink
The 777A&B was the reaction to the A343 which resulted in the A346, which B gave no chance but launching the 777C.

Quoting N60659 (Reply 41):
The narrow-body line seems to be doing extremely well. However in the not-too-distant-future Boeing will replace the 737 with a Y1 design. Airbus needs to be wary of this and be prepared to react accordingly, i.e., not another "we can counter the 7E7 with a re-engined A330" type reaction.

First, well written post.  Smile

I would like to expand. Just as the 773ER/787 was able to walk in and "own" a size category, the 737/320 category is very vulnerable right now. There have been far too many advances in engine, wing, and material technology for either line to keep selling past 2008.

Just as the 783 and 788 attack two separate categories for the mid-size market, there are two markets for the narrow bodies ready now. The first is the domestic market where high cycles rule the roost. The other is for the waiting trans-Atlantic market (say 4000nm range). While both markets could be attacked with one design, they do have different enough requirements that a design optimized for either will out do a general design. Or... like the 787 design two variants.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 30):

Quoting FlyingHippo (Reply 7):
The writing is on the wall for A340s, espeically the 5/600s (Which is sad, they are beautiful planes)

Yes, the writing has been on the wall ever since the two aircraft underwhelmed their launch customers.

True. But as noted above, the writing is on the walls for the narrow body range to. Who will strike first?

Lightsaber
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Halibut
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 5:25 am

Quoting UAL747-600 (Thread starter):
If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Good question !

Boy , Airbus will sure have there hands full if the A380 trials show heavy wake vortex are accurate ! This could be yet another major problem for AB .  faint 

http://www.flightinternational.com/A...trials+show+heavy+wake+vortex.html

Halibut
6 million Jews were slaughtered-Do you see Jews flying planes into buildings in Germany to kill 1000s of innocent, NO !
 
coa747
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 5:37 am

Loosing both the Singapore and Qantas orders would be a huge blow for Airbus. I think this article is a good assesment of the Qantas order deal.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au.../0,5744,17428629%255E23349,00.html

Main points:
777-300ER appears a no brainer at this point

777-200LR will be capable of a Sydney-London non-stop flight with an economical payload, Qantas insiders say.

Qantas wants to use the larger 787-9 on what are termed "long thin routes" across the Pacific, linking Sydney with Seattle or San Francisco; Adelaide to Los Angeles; and to operate west coast Australia to London non-stop.

Its smaller and lighter brother, the 787-8, will perform the Brisbane-Sydney-Melbourne CityFlyer every thirty minutes.

Also working in the 787's favour is the Qantas internal view that the "next thing" for airlines will be a replacement for the 737 and A320. The Qantas view is that it will be a 130-230 seat version of the 787 with its composite fuselage.

some analysts see Airbus picking up orders for its A350 from JetStar International.
 
B707Stu
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 5:40 am

Aside from QF and US carriers (AA, DL, UA that I know of) which airlines are due to make a purchase soon?
 
NYC777
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 5:53 am

Quoting B707Stu (Reply 69):
Aside from QF and US carriers (AA, DL, UA that I know of) which airlines are due to make a purchase soon?

Singapore Air will make a decision either in January or Feb. and there is Emirates decision on the 787/A350 which will be made god knows when. QR has said that it has decided on the A350 and 777 but who know if that may change as they signed nothing as of yet and it may change.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
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777wt
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 6:26 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 41):
Actually, we know that the 777-200LR/-300ER are only available with the GE90-110B/-115B. However, perhaps the poster was asking (and what I would like to know) is if the exclusivity was bi-directional. That is, can GE use these models on other civil aircraft? (I'm sure if GE wanted to use them on military aircraft, they could.)

the 777-200LR uses a derated derivate of the GE90-115B.

I'm really not sure if GE can use it on other civil aircraft due to the contract with Boeing.

Remember P&W, RR, and GE all competed to be selected for the 777 family?

P&W had a major loss with a few orders. The fuel burn was more than targeted and even worse than GE and RR. Plus they made the lowest thrust compared.

It was later dropped from the 777 line.

RR had problems with it's gearbox for the trent series for reduction gears but got it sorted out quickly.
Airlines like AA wanted RR due to maintenance, parts and training from RR.

And AA is a big 777 operator with RR's. So Boeing picked RR and GE for the 772.

Then it came down to what to get for the 777-300ER, they couldn't just pick RR and GE like they did with the 772 line.

Then Boeing after meetings and talks, picked GE because it had the highest thrust rating and the investment GE will invest in the 777 family if they picked them.
 
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keesje
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 6:32 am

Quoting UAL747-600 (Thread starter):
If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Keep banging out more aircraft then Boeing for years to come?
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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N328KF
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 6:33 am

Quoting 777WT (Reply 71):
I'm really not sure if GE can use it on other civil aircraft due to the contract with Boeing.

All that in order to tell us that you're "not really sure?"

And the -110B is a derated version of the -115B, so that's not really news.
“In the age of information, ignorance is a choice.”
-Donny Miller
 
aerokiwi
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 6:33 am

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 26):
Was this not a Virgin Atlantic slogan?

While that hrasing was a Virgin PR tool, I've seen Airbus print ads touting surveys of pax saying how much they prefer four engine son long-haul flights.
 
Aither
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 6:37 am

Don't bury the A340. Quad still remains attractive for certain routes.
Never trust the obvious
 
SLUAviator
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 7:15 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 27):
they can keep building the A340 in case existing customers want it, even if it's only a few frames a year.

You cannot keep an entire production line open for a few frames a year. Your costs would skyrocket just keeping the tooling sitting around idle! Throw in the staff, the warehousing of spare parts you have a monumental amount of money that you will eat, or pass onto the customer.

And yes... Boeing is running a reduced line right now with the 767. Boeing is willing to run a reduced line simply because they are reasonably sure they are eventually going to get the USAF tanker contract. Airbus however would not be guaranteed new 340 orders so it simply does not make sense.

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 30):
If they design and build it from scratch and incorporate improvements over the 777 it will trump the Boeing lineup.

I remember from my air carrier systems class that one of the huge advantages of the 777 is it was built with upgradeability in mind. The reason Boeing has continued to roll out new versions is because it is still a viable airplane, and you can upgrade the older ones. Upgrade avionics (aka--EFB), upgrade engines (aka--GE upgrade) and whatever other improvements Boeing has up their sleeves will make it a viable airplane for years to come. If Airbus is going to design a plane that will trump the 777 in the next 10-15 years, it is gonna have to be one hell of a machine!

Quoting N79969 (Reply 54):
Even Boeing concedes the changes in 747-8 are not radical.

The changes to the 748 are not going to be radical because the 787 will already be flying. The 787 is what is going to be radical. A lot of the new technologies from the 787 will find their way into the 748. There is no reason to build the thing if you don't take the best of the 787 and combine it with the best of the 747. Granted this will not work with the wing, but Boeing has said they are going to design an all new wing. It does not have to be a radical new design to push the envelop of technology, it only needs to take it in a new direction.

I think Boeing is underplaying what they are going to do with the 748 while the 787 is still rolling along in high gear. When the excitement of the 787 begins to wane, Boeing will have a big announcement about the 748.
What do I know? I just fly 'em.......
 
redflyer
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 7:26 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 72):
Keep banging out more aircraft then Boeing for years to come?

 rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 
A government big enough to take away a constitutionally guaranteed right is a government big enough to take away any guaranteed right. A government big enough to give you everything you need is a government big enough to take away everything you have.
 
777ER
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 7:34 am

Quoting SparkingWave (Reply 2):
Maybe the A340E was kind of like the B767-400. What did Boeing do when major airlines snubbed this aircraft?

Well the B764ER was only built for two airlines as DC10 replacements....CO and DL, so thats not a good comparasion

If QF go B777 then it might force airbus to re-think their A340 programme, redesign things etc
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ikramerica
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 7:35 am

Quoting JetMaster (Reply 63):
What's your point? Apart from showing your apparent agreement with certain childish and provoking posters' drivel?

Funny how he knows who Udo is despite joining after Udo vanished. While we have no proof, changing your name and then denying it to hide from past comments only to make the same exact kind of comments might be considered childish, should someone decide to do that. Which nobody is saying anyone has done. Since it's not true.

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 66):
True. But as noted above, the writing is on the walls for the narrow body range to. Who will strike first?

Airbus would be smart too. But I believe Boeing will, since their plane design is older and in more need of work, and because they are spending more time figuring out the technology it would require to make it worth it.

Ultimately, it depends on CFM and RR. When they offer engines in that thrust range that offer a greater efficiency bonus than even the GEnex/NexTRENTS offer over the CF6, we'll see those planes.

And that will be 2012. EIS 2012. Set in stone.  Wink

Quoting SLUAviator (Reply 76):
You cannot keep an entire production line open for a few frames a year.

The A340 does not have a production line. The 330/340 has a production line, and the 330 is far from dead. So they can build the occasional 340 as needed without much issue.

This is how the 736 and 318 stay available, why you can still order a 762 should you want, or an A300-600 pax model, how the 744pax model is still available despite the entire backlog being 744F models, etc.

It's one of the benefits of family.
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Kangar
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 7:44 am

I reckon, if QF go for 777s we could reasonably expect Airbus to have closed up shop and terminated the A380 program within a year, because if QF order 777s, there's no way back for Airbus. They are incapable of developing, engineering and marketing their way out of a difficulty.  Wink Come on people, the shoe was on the other foot no more than 2 or three years ago, and look how Beoing responded. The key for Airbus is not developing a 777/748 competitor. The key is to give the Airlines what they reckon they'll want in 10 years time - this may not necessarily be the aircraft we see today. Instead of watching Boeing, watch the customer, simple.
 
JBirdAV8r
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 7:52 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 72):
Keep banging out more aircraft then Boeing for years to come?

What good is that? The orders were previously announced.

That's like winning an eating contest, then after the competition, saying "Look! I'm digesting more food than you are!"

You can't just create your own competition to make yourself feel better...unless you are a PR department...

...so yes, I guess you could, Keesje  Wink
I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
 
airfrnt
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 7:58 am

Quoting JetMaster (Reply 63):
The B747-8 is NOT based on Dreamliner technology. It is only enhanced with some B787 features. If airlines want to carry 450-550 (in three classes) pax with large premium sections then the A380 is the way to go. The B747-8 will be limited to 450 pax, in high density configuration (three classes).

But even EK, the poster child for the A380, is now talking about using the A380 in a LCC setup rather then a traditional international carrier. That eliminates the need for a three class setup.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 64):
If Airbus products don't deliver, then perhaps the head of their Commerical Aircraft program and some of their senior engineers need to be handed their walking papers.

Intel tried that. Once AMD started beating them on performance, Intel hired a whole ton of smart young new chip designers and fired their senior staff. Their senior staff all went to AMD, and AMD has bested Intel on both price and performance ever since.

Airbus's biggest problem right now may be the lack of good new engineers rather then old engineers staying too long.

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 66):
I would like to expand. Just as the 773ER/787 was able to walk in and "own" a size category, the 737/320 category is very vulnerable right now. There have been far too many advances in engine, wing, and material technology for either line to keep selling past 2008.

That post is almost enough for me to add you to my RR list  Wink

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 66):
True. But as noted above, the writing is on the walls for the narrow body range to. Who will strike first?

Boeing or Airbus? I am not sure right now. Airbus may not have cashflow problems now, but they certainly will soon with a new A350, plus the A380 not at breakeven yet, plus the bottom falling out of the A330/340 market. Boeing on the other hand has the 500+ pound gurella Southwest in it's corner. Boeing can afford to wait it out and see what Airbus offers, best it, and still have a large initial order to generate momentum.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 79):
Funny how he knows who Udo is despite joining after Udo vanished. While we have no proof, changing your name and then denying it to hide from past comments only to make the same exact kind of comments might be considered childish, should someone decide to do that. Which nobody is saying anyone has done. Since it's not true.

Ikramerica, I suggest you let this rest. We should not be attacking people on this forum becuase of who they may or may not be. We should be discussing the ideas, the airports, the companies and the airliners that we all love.

I disagree often with JetMaster and Astuteman, but they bring valid points to the discussion. Being a troll or a press release monkey does no one any good.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 79):
Airbus would be smart too. But I believe Boeing will, since their plane design is older and in more need of work, and because they are spending more time figuring out the technology it would require to make it worth it.

Their close partnership with Southwest and Ryan Air may be their best assets. As much as the legacy carriers hate the LCC carriers, you can't deny that the LCC's use smaller planes much more effectively then the large carriers. Bringing that experience into plane design ala the "Working Together" program for the 777 is a major major plus.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 79):
Ultimately, it depends on CFM and RR. When they offer engines in that thrust range that offer a greater efficiency bonus than even the GEnex/NexTRENTS offer over the CF6, we'll see those planes.

I am not as sure that the next engine will come from CFM. Remember that there is also the Engine Alliance now (which is also GE) and the market has changed significantly since CFM had their successes with the A320 and 737. I would not be surprised to see P&W (which has been shut down a lot lately) make a last ditch bid for a new smaller jet engine. They have a ton of revolutionary technology that tends not to be quite beta tested enough. If they do their homework they could do something grand.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 79):
The A340 does not have a production line. The 330/340 has a production line, and the 330 is far from dead. So they can build the occasional 340 as needed without much issue.

Even the 330 is under serious pressure from the 787. Note NW and AC ditching the planes in favor of 787s.
 
ikramerica
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 8:15 am

Quoting Kangar (Reply 80):
I reckon, if QF go for 777s we could reasonably expect Airbus to have closed up shop and terminated the A380 program within a year, because if QF order 777s, there's no way back for Airbus. They are incapable of developing, engineering and marketing their way out of a difficulty.

See, nobody is saying that but those who don't want to address the topic! The topic is how will Airbus respond if QF goes 777, because it would signal the near death of the A340, not AIRBUS as a whole!

This is a very similar question to one years ago. The A330 started kicking 767 butt to the point that few carriers were buying them, and were taking A330s to replace or expand 767 fleets!

And Boeing responded, eventually, with the 787.

So the question is, will Airbus sit in denial with the 340 the way Boeing did with the 767 (not even offering a NG version?), or will they respond with a 350-1000 or 360 or something like that?

A year ago, they had tried to sell the 330 with Genex, then saw the light and did more to make it a 350.

Now they are talking about the 340 with genex (sound familiar?), so maybe they will again see the light and do the work required to beat the 773ER and 772LR.

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 82):
plus the bottom falling out of the A330/340 market.

While the 787 is set to replace some 330s in some fleets, the 330 market is still very strong as this is a great aircraft. The 330 has garnered many new orders this year.

Eventually a 5000nm 350 might replace it, but until that time, the 330 will do fine. the 340 won't.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
Areopagus
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 8:52 am

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 25):
Quoting Zvezda (Reply 15):
If I were Airbus, I would not plan on trying to stretch the A350 to the length of the A340-600. The extreme length/width ratio is one of the main reasons why the A340 is not quite competitive with the B777

Would you say the same about the 787-10x, or are you going to tell me it's different, because it's composite?

According to a set of cross-sectional drawings previously posted by Widebodyphotog, the fuselage vertical dimensions are 222" for the A300, 235" for the 787, and 244" for the 777. The 787 is closer to the 777 than to the A300 in this dimension. That would suggest that a long stretch of the 787 would not be so stresssful as of the 350.
 
co7772wuh
Posts: 381
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 9:15 am

Airbus certainly has many things to over come . 1st they must complete the A380 , & who know how long that will take ??? Then they must address the widebody segmint which Boeing seems to have a very strong hold on currently with there 777s. And also the mid size a/c market as well , 787 !

Quoting JetMaster (Reply 63):
What's your point? Apart from showing your apparent agreement with certain childish and provoking posters' drivel?



Quoting JetMaster (Reply 63):
drivel?

It's udo alright !
I knew it was just a matter of time before his " I know more than everybody , you are stupid , you are nothing " ,,,, temperament would materialize !

[Edited 2005-12-02 01:30:23]
 
SLUAviator
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 9:20 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 79):
The A340 does not have a production line. The 330/340 has a production line, and the 330 is far from dead. So they can build the occasional 340 as needed without much issue.

Why would you offer multiple airplanes to produce 10--and this is just an arbitrary number-- or less of a type in a year? Even if the 330/340 are built on the same line, the cost of storing the different parts, or ordering special parts on a per plane basis and storing the unique tools for the 340 (and it has them--2 extra engines and different type at that, and an extra landing gear unit for example) makes no sense.

Many people point out that this thread is to discuss what Airbus' response to the QF 777/787 deal is. Some have said that the 777/787 is going to put a nail in the coffin of the A340. I am simply trying to point out that financially it makes no sense to continue producing only a few of the A340s when Airbus needs to concentrate on responding to the 777/787.

Losing the QF deal should be a serious warning sign to Airbus that their product line in the present form is no longer going to cut it. IMHO, the loss of the QF deal is equally the end of the "4 engines 4 long haul" concept and it is time to head back to the drawing board. Scrap the 340... Keep the 330 long enough to build something that can compete! A few frames/year is just not worth it!
What do I know? I just fly 'em.......
 
BoomBoom
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 9:27 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 83):
This is a very similar question to one years ago. The A330 started kicking 767 butt to the point that few carriers were buying them, and were taking A330s to replace or expand 767 fleets!

Years ago, was the technology to do the 787 available--the composite fuselage, the new engines?

Boeing says they don't like to bring out totally new models until the technology is ready to make a significant leap. Or is this just an excuse for not acting sooner?
Our eyes are open, our eyes are open--wide, wide, wide...
 
zvezda
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 9:33 am

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 66):
Just as the 773ER/787 was able to walk in and "own" a size category, the 737/320 category is very vulnerable right now. There have been far too many advances in engine, wing, and material technology for either line to keep selling past 2008. ... Who will strike first?

Airbus has little incentive to strike first. Because it would be their first composite fuselage airliner, Boeing could size up Airbus's efforts, know what they needed for a superior offering, and still get to market first. My money is on Boeing going first. If Boeing move soon enough, they can hope that Airbus will decide they don't have the technology yet to produce a composite fuselage and respond by "A350ing" the A320. Even if Airbus decide to take the time to develop their first composite airliner, it means that Boeing will own the market for several years until the A320 replacement can be delivered.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 72):
Keep banging out more aircraft then Boeing for years to come?

Building white-tails is not a good business strategy.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 79):
The A340 does not have a production line. The 330/340 has a production line, and the 330 is far from dead. So they can build the occasional 340 as needed without much issue.

I believe the A350 will share the same production line so, as long as the A350 remains in production, it costs Airbus next to nothing to keep the A340 in production.
 
ikramerica
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 10:05 am

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 87):
Boeing says they don't like to bring out totally new models until the technology is ready to make a significant leap. Or is this just an excuse for not acting sooner?

I think it was. They could have done some kind of NG on the 767 in the late 90s, with a new wing and upgraded engines, but instead did the 737NG (smart move) and a niche 764ER (shortest range of the family, using existing 777/737NG technology to do some minor upgrades).

It was a choice, and they lost a LOT of sales to Airbus because of it, as the 737NG was no A320 beater, just an A320 matcher. So Airbus got 50% of the single aisle orders, 50% of the 340/777 size orders, and most of the 330/767 class orders.

Now the tide has turned, and it is Airbus's turn to decide to stay the course with the 344ER (340E+764ER nomenclature to represent the niche aspect of the concept), to take the lead on a new single aisle, or to go after the 300-450 seat market.

Airbus accepted the 787 challenge eventually and it should pay off, but that concept can't fill the gap under the A380 or compete with the 773ER effectively.

I think they'd be smartest to go after the single-aisle market myself and make Boeing respond, which is why they would need to keep the A340 available for sale like they do with the A300/310, for better or worse.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 88):
I believe the A350 will share the same production line so, as long as the A350 remains in production, it costs Airbus next to nothing to keep the A340 in production.

Well, as long as each A340 they sell pays for itself, that's all that matters should they decide to put a real replacement on hold. Why? It takes a potential 773ER sale away.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
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glideslope
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 10:48 am

Quoting JetMaster (Reply 63):
So what exactly in that silly statement is based on reality? Can you present any facts to support that theory? Well, of course you cannot - we know your track record.

Merry Christmas, Udo.  Smile
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
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glideslope
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 10:55 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 62):
Yeah, as much of a turd as I think Leahy is, he does what he's supposed to do. Eventually, however, customers will realize that you are trying to pitch a compromised product.

At this point it's more than attempting to pitch a compromised product. It's trying to repair a torn corporate image. One who's very survival is based on demonstrating the ability to sell a product based on it's word.

Airbus needs change at the top, and they need it yesterday. Boeing has benefited from such events in the past, and so can Airbus. If they choose to.
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
N79969
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 10:55 am

Airbus is doing really well with the A320 series. The airplane is a steady generator of business. However the downside for Airbus is that they have to be competititive on price since the 737NG is such a close match.

What is interesting about the latest round of widebody orders is that Boeing's hit product is also its most expensive product: 773ER. I believe the list price is considerably higher than it is for the 346. Although the specific financials are not public, it looks like Boeing is able to ask for and get premium on the 773ER because of the rising cost of fuel and 777s greater revenue generating potential. They are in very good position.

Airbus should also have pricing power right now with the A330 because it beats the 767 by a good margin. However since the 330 will soon be supplanted by the 350 (and 787), Airbus will probably see this profit center fade.
 
lehpron
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 11:21 am

Quoting UAL747-600 (Thread starter):
With the recent large 777 orders by AC, EK and CX, the pending QR 777 order, what is Airbus going to do? There appears to be a large gap between the A330 and A380 that Airbus doesn't appear to offer a competitive product in any longer. Comments?

Before Boeing launched 748, I would have thought Airbus could consider the gap negligible in terms of sales, that the precieved market at the time would not have been worth the investment of a gap-filler aircraft.

My, have the tables turned. I have no clue to be honest. Like others have said, maybe there are preliminary proposals of further stretching A350 akin to Boeing's study of a rumored 787-10x based on the requests of certain big name carriers (that I happen to have forgotten).
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
NAV20
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 11:30 am

I don't know how Airbus can do it, in cash flow terms, but IMO they simply must close the technology gap somehow; particularly in the field of composites. I've said elsewhere that if the 787 technology succeeds (and it is still a matter of 'if', rather than 'when') it will make all other aircraft obsolete to a greater or lesser extent.

Turning-points like that have occurred before in aviation history - the Boeing 247/Douglas DC2, for example; and of course the Comet/707. As far as can be seen, the 787 will usher in a new age because it will be cheaper, lighter, and quicker to build than any airliner of comparable size built by what were the 'accepted' methods only a very few years ago.

In that context, the most significant paragraph of that 'Australian' article was possibly:-

"Also working in the 787's favour is the Qantas internal view that the "next thing" for airlines will be a replacement for the 737 and A320. The Qantas view is that it will be a 130-230 seat version of the 787 with its composite fuselage."

That notion can't have originated with Qantas; the germ of the idea for such an aeroplane has to have come from Boeing. I think we've all been expecting Boeing's next step to be a composite 'big twin' for inter-continental routes. But just suppose that Boeing are really thinking of next applying composite technology (and fuel/cost savings) to a 737/A320 replacement?

We can probably all agree that the A320 is going to be Airbus' cash flow lifeline for the next few years. But what happens if even that lifebelt springs a leak?
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
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sunrisevalley
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 1:49 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 94):
But what happens if even that lifebelt springs a leak?

And it will if they don't take a big leap quickly into the new technology. They cannot afford to wait for the outcome of the in flight performance of the 787 series.Boeing could easily have a 737/A320 replacement ready for 2013 or sooner if they were to use the same cross section as the 787.
Airbus has a real sales problem; clearly Leahy has consistently over sold and has failed to deliver. In my view he is now a real liability. He should go back to selling
articles like the Brooklyn Bridge. I want to change the focus of the thread slightly; why is it that the on time despatch rate for certain of the Airbus models
is not good. What bits and pieces do they use that Boeing doesn't, that give the trouble?
 
JetMaster
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 4:12 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 79):
Funny how he knows who Udo is despite joining after Udo vanished. While we have no proof, changing your name and then denying it to hide from past comments only to make the same exact kind of comments might be considered childish, should someone decide to do that. Which nobody is saying anyone has done. Since it's not true.

Why don't you just stick to the topic rather than switching to personal and silly off-topic tattles again and again? My comment was aimed at the provoking reply number 1 (deleted meanwhile - wonder why?) and the ones who even praised that nonsense.

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 82):
But even EK, the poster child for the A380, is now talking about using the A380 in a LCC setup rather then a traditional international carrier. That eliminates the need for a three class setup.

EK has never said it could imagine to operate ALL its A380s in LCC configuration - it's just an idea to use the A380 to a certain extent for those missions. Of course they will use the additional space of the A380 for offering luxurious premium cabins to compete with their biggest rivals.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 94):
But what happens if even that lifebelt springs a leak?

Then Airbus is finally down as often predicted on a.net and in 40 years NAV20 won't have to ask his travel agent any longer to avoid Airbus planes for reservations...  Wink


Regards,
JM
The Journey is my Destination
 
zvezda
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 4:27 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 94):
I don't know how Airbus can do it, in cash flow terms, but IMO they simply must close the technology gap somehow; particularly in the field of composites. I've said elsewhere that if the 787 technology succeeds (and it is still a matter of 'if', rather than 'when') it will make all other aircraft obsolete to a greater or lesser extent.

Airbus have considerable experience with composites. Just ask AA.  Smile Seriously though, I don't think Airbus are that far behind in being able to produce a composite fuselage -- especially a smaller one such as an A320 replacement.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 94):
I think we've all been expecting Boeing's next step to be a composite 'big twin' for inter-continental routes. But just suppose that Boeing are really thinking of next applying composite technology (and fuel/cost savings) to a 737/A320 replacement?

Actually, I think more A.netters have been expecting Boeing to produce Y1 before Y3. The launch of the B747-8 makes it all but certain that Y1 will preceed Y3.

Quoting SunriseValley (Reply 95):
Boeing could easily have a 737/A320 replacement ready for 2013 or sooner if they were to use the same cross section as the 787.

I expect Y1 to have a much smaller cross section than the B787. My guess is 160-165 inches wide and about 175 inches high (to accommodate single-file LD3s).
 
ikramerica
Posts: 15087
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 4:31 pm

Quoting JetMaster (Reply 63):
we know your track record.

I agree.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
Shenzhen
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 4:38 pm

What is Airbus going to do? They will continue work on the A380, trying to improve the performance. Continue work on the A350, trying to improve performance and lock in the commitments. They will continue to pit the A340 against the 777s to at least drive down the Boeing margins, and hopefully secure a few orders.

The last thing Boeing wants to do is force Airbus into a corner, as then there is no way out but to produce a new airplane, that might obsolete Boeings current lineup. The A340 is still a good airplane, and would have to imagine that Airbus must get at least 20 years out of the airframe, even if it is derivatives "r" us. Their mid size lineup is falling into the same boat that Boeing was in for the past 5 years (757/767), meaning aging compared to the competition. Boeing tried the derivative thing, but ultimately had to bite the bullet.

So to summarize, I don't see any be change in direction at Airbus if they lose the upcoming battles, other then some modest improvements to the A340 family and A380 to improve their CASMs.

A few years down the road when the A340 is nearing 20 years old, then we might see a new airplane family, sized a bit bigger (wider for sure) to fit better between the A350 and A380. If Boeing launches a 737 replacement, then Airbus may be forced to push back a new A340 family, as the narrow body segment is too large to lose a significant number of sales.

My 2 cents.

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