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Shenzhen
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RE: Boeing Nose Ahead In Qantas Order Race

Fri Dec 02, 2005 5:07 pm

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 50):
When was Airbus accused of "dumping" aircraft, and by whom? How do you explain record profits?

I believe that this was floated back when United made their big order for the A320s, but nothing came of it. By whom.. I think "maybe" by some US Congressmen or something of that nature.

Cheers
 
freedom4all
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RE: Boeing Nose Ahead In Qantas Order Race

Fri Dec 02, 2005 5:23 pm

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 26):
No, the more threatening type that the US government exerts in Japan, I think he means.

Another anti-US statement from someone from Europe....what a big surprise
considering the recent events in your our own country I really don't think you should be saying any thing about another country's political policy's....espcially when you don't know what your talking about

on an aviation note::::
good for Qantas to be able to expand and renew there fleet....regardless of witch aircraft they choose
long live the 747!
 
Cruiser
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RE: Boeing Nose Ahead In Qantas Order Race

Fri Dec 02, 2005 11:12 pm

Quoting Glideslope (Reply 39):
Of course it will be, "If it does what Airbus says it will." This problem has been coming to a head ever since the 346 and it's issues. People spend hours dismissing it as Airbus bashing, A vs B, B vs A, and everything in between.

Welcome to my RR list.

I think that you have this spot on. There is a problem at Airbus, and I am not one to judge what it is. Boeing recently went through those struglles, lost badly, and changed the way they did business. Now, we can all see the fruits of its labor.

James
Leahy on Per Seat Costs: "Have you seen the B-2 fly-by at almost US$1bn a copy? It has only 2 seats!"
 
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jetfuel
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RE: Boeing Nose Ahead In Qantas Order Race

Fri Dec 02, 2005 11:18 pm

Why are people thinking the 748 is not in the race? You wait and see. QF need direct replacemnets for 744 aircraft that are going to be 20 year old by the time the 748 is ready
Where's the passion gone out of the airline industry? The smell of jetfuel and the romance of taking a flight....
 
coa747
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RE: Boeing Nose Ahead In Qantas Order Race

Fri Dec 02, 2005 11:52 pm

Mr Leahy seems to be Airbus's biggest problem right now. If he would shut his mouth and stop making rediculous statements and promises then maybe customers wouldn't be disappointed when Airbus can't meet them. Case in point the A380 or Emirates.
 
Lumberton
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RE: Boeing Nose Ahead In Qantas Order Race

Fri Dec 02, 2005 11:54 pm

Quoting Wingman (Reply 41):
One more prediction, if QF and SIA give their orders to Boeing then Leahy will be sacked.

No, with all respect, Wingman, this ain't going to happen in a million years. I'm not going to predict who will win the 787/350 contest at QF, but Leahy is the linchpin of their sales success. He is the public face of Airbus. It would be an astonishing admission of failure to sack him. Besides, he's just parroting the corporate line WRT the A380. Mr. Leahy can always go out and sell a couple hundred A320's to make up for the loss; I hear the Chinese are buying....  Wink
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
atmx2000
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RE: Boeing Nose Ahead In Qantas Order Race

Sat Dec 03, 2005 12:01 am

Quoting Coa747 (Reply 55):
Mr Leahy seems to be Airbus's biggest problem right now. If he would shut his mouth and stop making rediculous statements and promises then maybe customers wouldn't be disappointed when Airbus can't meet them. Case in point the A380 or Emirates.

Um, I think their problems are not on the sales side. Leahy maybe a big mouth, but he's doing all he can with what he is given.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
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sebolino
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RE: Boeing Nose Ahead In Qantas Order Race

Sat Dec 03, 2005 12:02 am

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 8):
Frankly, I think Airbus has been quite demoralised recently; 2005 has unquestionably been Boeing's year ...

... and the best year ever for Airbus. People at Airbus have exactly zero reasons to be sad.
 
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N328KF
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RE: Boeing Nose Ahead In Qantas Order Race

Sat Dec 03, 2005 12:06 am

Quoting Coa747 (Reply 55):
Mr Leahy seems to be Airbus's biggest problem right now. If he would shut his mouth and stop making rediculous statements and promises then maybe customers wouldn't be disappointed when Airbus can't meet them. Case in point the A380 or Emirates.

No, Airbus' biggest problem is a product line that leaves something to be desired (as evidenced by recent orders) in the 200 to 450 seat range.
“In the age of information, ignorance is a choice.”
-Donny Miller
 
N79969
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RE: Boeing Nose Ahead In Qantas Order Race

Sat Dec 03, 2005 12:07 am

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 56):
I'm not going to predict who will win the 787/350 contest at QF, but Leahy is the linchpin of their sales success.

I agree with this one. Leahy must work with whatever the engineers design and build. He is an obnoxious guy but I think most everyone must (albeit grudgingly) admit that he has done very well.

I am not knowledgable enough to say that say that the engineers are at fault.

Although I think it is highly unlikely, I think Foregard should be the one to be fired. He is out acting like a junior-level salesman/spokesperson even while acting as co-CEO. When promises come from that level in the company, it is unusual and becomes critical that those promises are met.
 
N79969
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RE: Boeing Nose Ahead In Qantas Order Race

Sat Dec 03, 2005 12:10 am

Quoting Sebolino (Reply 58):
... and the best year ever for Airbus. People at Airbus have exactly zero reasons to be sad.

Yeah right...I am sure they are very happy at Tolouse amidst the beatings they have just received at Dubai and Hong Kong.

At least make an attempt to be reasonable in your responses.
 
Alitalia744
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RE: Boeing Nose Ahead In Qantas Order Race

Sat Dec 03, 2005 12:10 am

Quoting Aileron11 (Reply 43):
I would like to say “if isn’t Boeing I aint going” so now you all know I am Boeing fan

I'm right there with ya, and now we can say that includes all the tanks built by MDD!
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
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N328KF
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RE: Boeing Nose Ahead In Qantas Order Race

Sat Dec 03, 2005 12:11 am

Quoting Sebolino (Reply 58):
... and the best year ever for Airbus. People at Airbus have exactly zero reasons to be sad.

The high volume of sales at Airbus, and the fact that they appear to not be too far behind as far as the raw number of airframes sold this year is concerned masks the fact that the narrowbody:widebody ratio is much higher at Airbus. As a proportion, Boeing is selling a lot more high margin widebody airframes than Airbus. Not only that, but they are making greater progress in breaking even on their next-generation product (787) than Airbus is with either of the two they are dealing with (A350/A380).

[Edited 2005-12-02 16:17:54]
“In the age of information, ignorance is a choice.”
-Donny Miller
 
longhaulheavy
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RE: Boeing Nose Ahead In Qantas Order Race

Sat Dec 03, 2005 12:37 am

Quoting AirFrnt (Thread starter):
But on guarantees, Boeing's conservatism generally pays off with the manufacturer typically exceeding its contract promises.

Looks like Boeing is keenly following one of the cardinal rules of business: under-promise and over-deliver.
 
Sjoerd
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RE: Boeing Nose Ahead In Qantas Order Race

Sat Dec 03, 2005 1:08 am

This article appeared on the Airbus website today, might have something to do with an upcoming order...

http://www.airbus.com/en/presscentre...eleases_items/12_01_05_CRCACS.html

Sjoerd
Flanders + Wallonnia + Brussels = the UNITED STATES of BELGIUM
 
Joni
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RE: Boeing Nose Ahead In Qantas Order Race

Sat Dec 03, 2005 1:13 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 11):
what an impressive objective article by

Geoffrey Thomas, co-author of Boeing 787 Dreamliner - Flying Redefined.

Good point Keesje, although frankly you could tell just by reading the quotes in the thread-starter that the author was in bed with Boeing.

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 17):
Given EK's statements and CX's decision to move to the 777 I think it is fair to consider the A340 problems confirmed which also will make it hard for SQ to pick another 340 brand aircraft. QF is a target that Airbus has wanted for a while, but I really don't see a way that Airbus will get this order.

I find your thinking here a bit hard to follow. You do know that CX, EK, SQ and QF are all different companies, based in different countries?

Quoting N328KF (Reply 23):
You can only lower your price so far before you attract the attention of anti-dumping authorities, and Airbus already has a magnifying glass on them, in this respect.

Selling below cost is dumping. Could you mention a source for your claim that antidumping authorities would be investigating Airbus? (or, literally, that Airbus was investigating the antidumping authorities, which sounds even more outlandish)
 
Rj111
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RE: Boeing Nose Ahead In Qantas Order Race

Sat Dec 03, 2005 1:14 am

The problem is the A346 seems a vastly a makeshift design. You only have too look at how long and thin it is to see that. From what i can see, Airbus fell in love with building a super huge plane, then noticed there was a gaping void between the A343 and the (possibly anticipated at the time) A380, which would have overwise been handed to Boeing. So they went for the cheap and easy option of stretching what was once a 54m A300, to a 75m A346. I wouldn't necessarily 'blame' the engineering ability at Airbus - they've shown they can build quality planes with the A330 and A320, but those planes where optimised for their role on a much more fundamental level though. I'd be more pursuaded to 'blame' the decision to stetch an existing design when really it may have been a better idea to produce a new plane with a different cross-section - say ten abreast - which would have fitted very neately between the A343 and A380. Obviously Airbus couldn't really produce two new planes from scratch at once though, so the A340NG was born. At the time perhaps, with vastly lower fuel prices, it was probably a good idea.
 
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N328KF
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RE: Boeing Nose Ahead In Qantas Order Race

Sat Dec 03, 2005 1:17 am

Quoting Joni (Reply 66):
Selling below cost is dumping. Could you mention a source for your claim that antidumping authorities would be investigating Airbus?

I was not saying that Airbus makes a practice of dumping (though some, above, did.) I was stating that Airbus in particular (though it applies to neither) would be allowed to go below a certain price point.

Anyhow, it is natural that the U.S. DoJ and the WTO would investigate any substantiated claims that Airbus (or any manufacturer) was selling their products below cost. I was not insinuating that it was occurring...merely making the point that there is only so far you can go in reducing your price.

Quoting Joni (Reply 66):
(or, literally, that Airbus was investigating the antidumping authorities, which sounds even more outlandish)

I'm not quite sure where you got that from what I said. ESL?
“In the age of information, ignorance is a choice.”
-Donny Miller
 
N79969
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RE: Boeing Nose Ahead In Qantas Order Race

Sat Dec 03, 2005 1:23 am

Quoting Joni (Reply 66):
Good point Keesje, although frankly you could tell just by reading the quotes in the thread-starter that the author was in bed with Boeing.

Nonsense. Airbus dug itself into a hole. The press is reporting it. That does not put the reporter in anyone's camp.
 
N60659
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RE: Boeing Nose Ahead In Qantas Order Race

Sat Dec 03, 2005 1:35 am

Quoting Joni (Reply 66):
Good point Keesje, although frankly you could tell just by reading the quotes in the thread-starter that the author was in bed with Boeing.

It appears that the following quotes from the article escaped your attention:

"Boeing suffered from a bout of pricing arrogance through 2003 and 2004, which has now disappeared with the very public demise of president Harry Stonecipher earlier this year. "

and

"However, delays in delivering aircraft are nothing new, with the 747-400 more than nine months late and the MD-11 almost a year late.

In 1997, Boeing irritated customers when it tried to ramp up production too quickly and its lines became snarled, forcing a construction halt for one month of the 747 and 737. It cost the company billions and executives were sacked."


Boeing spent a lot of time and effort and endured considerable criticism during the past couple of years and have successfully righted the ship. The writer clearly points that out in the article. Besides, how does being a co-author of a book on a Boeing product make one biased towards Boeing?

-N60659
Nec Dextrorsum Nec Sinistrorsum
 
david31998
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RE: Boeing Nose Ahead In Qantas Order Race

Sat Dec 03, 2005 1:41 am

Some of the Airbus critics in this thread are overreaching. Boeing's 787/777 lineup is impressive and clearly has the lead in the mid-range market. But the A350 has plenty of commitments; more than most of us thought possible only a short time ago. Airbus had a difficult time deciding how to respond to the 787, but they made on major blunders, and still have more planes on order than Boeing. Further, Airbus is in good financial shape and, as others have said, the EU will certain back them during thought times.
 
Rj111
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RE: Boeing Nose Ahead In Qantas Order Race

Sat Dec 03, 2005 2:32 am

N60659, i don't really care whether that article is biased or not. But if you are biased and you know it - in all walks of life not just avaition - It's common to try and hide it by throwing a few light-hearted derogotary remarks in the other direction. Otherwise it's obvious you're being biased, and nobody will take you seriously.
 
JetMaster
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RE: Boeing Nose Ahead In Qantas Order Race

Sat Dec 03, 2005 3:06 am

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 16):
The have most of the blue chip carriers already committed to the platform.

Which are you referring to?

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 17):
See above. I really think that EK's growth is rather suicidal. The fact that they are using 777 as their "mid capacity" airliner boggles the mind.

SIA's smallest plane is the B772ER - still much larger than EK's A313 and B332.

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 17):
As market liberalization occurs I think that EK will have to shift more and more of it's resources over to the 787/777/350 market space to compete with the carrier's frequencies.

EK has continuously increased frequencies all the time.

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 17):
Maybe EK can flourish where PeopleExpress, PanAM, TWA et all failed.

The whole background of these airlines was different. PanAm lacked a large feeder network, PeopleExpress and TWA lacked a large international longhaul network to make big money with.
EK has massive O&D traffic, massive transfer traffic and it carries lots of cargo.

Quoting N328KF (Reply 22):
You can only lower your price so far before you attract the attention of anti-dumping authorities, and Airbus already has a magnifying glass on them, in this respect.

Oh, they have? Sources?

Quoting Wingman (Reply 36):
The region is very volatile and Dubai is clearly catering to a crowd that isn't high on Osama's favorites. We'll see if civilian attacks in Saudi, Egypt and Jordan find their way to the new Las Vegas, city of sin and greed.

All these attacks were somehow related to domestic issues, and mostly carried out (and/or supported) by people originating from these countries. Also, these regimes are close allies of the US. In contrast, there's no opposition in the UAE which want to kill the leadership, and the UAE have been quite neutral politically.


Regards,
JM
The Journey is my Destination
 
N60659
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RE: Boeing Nose Ahead In Qantas Order Race

Sat Dec 03, 2005 3:19 am

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 71):
But if you are biased and you know it - in all walks of life not just avaition - It's common to try and hide it by throwing a few light-hearted derogotary remarks in the other direction. Otherwise it's obvious you're being biased, and nobody will take you seriously.

While I agree with that, in principle, it is also possible that "bias is in the mind of the beholder" (and I am not singling anyone out here). Much of what is said or read is subject to an individual's interpretation based on their own predilections. Regardless of whether the author of the article is biased or not, he cites some good examples of where Boeing stumbled in the years leading up to 2005. And this is not based on this article alone. The problems Boeing faced back in the early part of the decade have been well documented in other popular trade publications at the time. All I'm trying to say is that it is unfair to discredit the merits of the article based on a blanket statement of the nature of what Keesje and Joni have stated. QF is known to issue some of the most stringent requirements for airframe/powerplant manufacturers through the course of history. Their decision, to be announced next week, will be one of the most impartial and unbiased you will find. We can validate the veracity of the author's claims at that point.

-N60659
Nec Dextrorsum Nec Sinistrorsum
 
ozglobal
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RE: Boeing Nose Ahead In Qantas Order Race

Sat Dec 03, 2005 3:28 am

Quoting N79969 (Reply 68):
Quoting Joni (Reply 66):
Good point Keesje, although frankly you could tell just by reading the quotes in the thread-starter that the author was in bed with Boeing.

Nonsense. Airbus dug itself into a hole. The press is reporting it. That does not put the reporter in anyone's camp.

Quite right, it doesn't. The author takes care of that himself with his title, "co-author of Boeing 787 Dreamliner - Flying Redefined"  Smile
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
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N328KF
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RE: Boeing Nose Ahead In Qantas Order Race

Sat Dec 03, 2005 4:27 am

Quoting JetMaster (Reply 72):
Oh, they have? Sources?

Udo, are you blind? Have you not been reading the news the past year or so about subsidies to Airbus? Obviously that would imply that their finances in general are being watched. But later, I clarified (which you apparently missed) that I was only making a general statement, not a specific accusation. Sheesh! We know that you're Type-A, but do you have to show it constantly?
“In the age of information, ignorance is a choice.”
-Donny Miller
 
N79969
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RE: Boeing Nose Ahead In Qantas Order Race

Sat Dec 03, 2005 4:43 am

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 74):
Quite right, it doesn't. The author takes care of that himself with his title, "co-author of Boeing 787 Dreamliner - Flying Redefined"

How? Because he wrote a book about an airplane and found that it would (gasp) actually introduce revolutionary changes?

There is nothing to truly suggests that Thomas is biased other than in your and Keesje's imagination.
 
JetMaster
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RE: Boeing Nose Ahead In Qantas Order Race

Sat Dec 03, 2005 4:50 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 75):
Have you not been reading the news the past year or so about subsidies to Airbus? Obviously that would imply that their finances in general are being watched.

"Obviously" and "imply" are interesting terms which you use in that context...

Quoting N328KF (Reply 75):
But later, I clarified (which you apparently missed) that I was only making a general statement, not a specific accusation. Sheesh!

And you still don't have a source which your general statement is based on.

Quoting N328KF (Reply 75):
We know that you're Type-A, but do you have to show it constantly?

There's a difference between "knowing" and "believing".  Smile


Regards,
JM
The Journey is my Destination
 
aeropiggot
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RE: Boeing Nose Ahead In Qantas Order Race

Sat Dec 03, 2005 4:54 am

Quote:
Sjoerd: This article appeared on the Airbus website today, might have something to do with an upcoming order...

http://www.airbus.com/en/presscentre...eleases_items/12_01_05_CRCACS.html

Sjoerd

I am willing to go out on the limb here and make a prediction on the Qantas order. I believe that they will order the 777LR and 777-300ER, but I also believe that they will order the A350 over the 787, based more on political considerations than technical/economic merits. A carrier such as Qantas just does not want to be beholden to any one manufacturer (despite the A380) and Airbus is pulling out all the stops, just short of giving them away to salvage some part of this order.  twocents 
A scientist discovers that which exists, an engineer creates that which never was.
 
astuteman
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RE: Boeing Nose Ahead In Qantas Order Race

Sat Dec 03, 2005 5:10 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 75):
Have you not been reading the news the past year or so about subsidies to Airbus?

A strange comment to make, particularly in the context of investigations into dumping. I think it's abundantly clear to anyone who is interested that both Boeing and Airbus have their subsidies (and they both get them) under intense scrutiny. I don't believe for one moment that this is anything to do with allegations of dumping.

Quoting N328KF (Reply 67):
I was not saying that Airbus makes a practice of dumping (though some, above, did.) I was stating that Airbus in particular (though it applies to neither) would be allowed to go below a certain price point.

Anyhow, it is natural that the U.S. DoJ and the WTO would investigate any substantiated claims that Airbus (or any manufacturer) was selling their products below cost. I was not insinuating that it was occurring...merely making the point that there is only so far you can go in reducing your price.

Again, care is required. For a start, there are numerous definitions of "cost" depending, for example, on whether you include non-recurring overheads or not. Do you know what cost means, or indeed is, in these circumstances?

It is common practice in the industry for key orders to be placed at massive discounts by both Airbus and Boeing, and many examples have been cited in innumerable threads on here.
In some cases, it would not surprise me if "loss-leader" contracts were placed "below cost". Many industries "loss-lead".
However, dumping implies continuous and routine selling below cost due to ongoing and routine subsidies. I personally would be very skeptical of claims that either manufacturer does this, or is indeed under investigation on this basis.

Many have been reading the news this year, myself included. I'm happy to be convinced that Airbus are being investigated at the WTO over "Launch aid".
Being investigated at the WTO regarding "Launch aid" is a world away from being investigated for "dumping", though.
I've never read anything which implies this for Airbus (or Boeing), but I'm open to being educated.
A
 
Ken777
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RE: Boeing Nose Ahead In Qantas Order Race

Sat Dec 03, 2005 6:14 am

Quoting AeroPiggot (Reply 78):
but I also believe that they will order the A350 over the 787, based more on political considerations than technical/economic merits.

Could be possible if Airbus comes in at a very low price, but I think the problems QF had with using an Airbus on the the CitiFlyer (problems with quick turnaround) moves them more to the 787. It's going to be interesting to watch what QF does, and I hope they lay all decisions on the table at one time.
 
aeropiggot
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RE: Boeing Nose Ahead In Qantas Order Race

Sat Dec 03, 2005 7:11 am

Quote:
Ken777and I hope they lay all decisions on the table at one time

I agree, a fair and balance comparison between the two airplanes, should give us A.netters a lot to talk about. I am really interested to know how the two airplanes compete technically. Range with max payload, DOC etc... I wonder if Leahy is in France with the Chinese premier, or is he still in Australia. The answer here could also shed some light on how the negotiations are progressing. Either manufacturer could still make a last minute "hail mary play", as someone put it earlier in the thread.
A scientist discovers that which exists, an engineer creates that which never was.
 
KL808
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RE: Boeing Nose Ahead In Qantas Order Race

Sat Dec 03, 2005 7:26 am

Quick question

Why order the B777 now when you didn't seem to be interested with it from the very begining?

Drew
AMS-LAX-MNL
 
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N328KF
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RE: Boeing Nose Ahead In Qantas Order Race

Sat Dec 03, 2005 7:32 am

Quoting KL808 (Reply 82):
Why order the B777 now when you didn't seem to be interested with it from the very begining?

How funny that you should say that. QF was part of the customer group that Boeing worked very closely with to define the 777. Out of the whole group, they are the only one to not place an order (so far.)
“In the age of information, ignorance is a choice.”
-Donny Miller
 
SthPacific787
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RE: Boeing Nose Ahead In Qantas Order Race

Sat Dec 03, 2005 7:55 am

Quoting AeroPiggot (Reply 78):
I am willing to go out on the limb here and make a prediction on the Qantas order. I believe that they will order the 777LR and 777-300ER, but I also believe that they will order the A350 over the 787,

I don't agree with this re the 350's, at least not entirely. The QF RFP includes a replacement for the Boeing 763 used both domestically and medium-haul internationally. They often use the same aircraft for both and after the negative experiences with the A332's domestically, I think you will find the A350 is too big for this(these) role(s). The 788 is perfect.

This does not however, preclude the 350 from being used in a different context, such as longer/medium haul (e.g. Sydney-Shanghai) as with the current A333's or as the type used by the new JQ International. Maybe they will order more 333's  scratchchin 
Aussie Based Air NZ 787 fan
 
WestWing
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RE: Boeing Nose Ahead In Qantas Order Race

Sun Dec 04, 2005 12:42 pm

Here is an interesting quote from this reuters item with dateline Dec 03.

"Qantas Chief Executive Geoff Dixon said management had not decided on a final recommendation for Wednesday's board meeting."

Not decided ? With only four days left?
The best time to plant a tree is 40 years ago. The second best time is today.
 
NAV20
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RE: Boeing Nose Ahead In Qantas Order Race

Sun Dec 04, 2005 1:11 pm

"Have you made a final decision?" is a pretty standard "Have you stopped beating your wife?" question in 'journalese'. Intended to provide an angle.

If you say "Yes" the very next question will be, "Great! What is it?" You obviously can't answer that - so the story will start by saying that you're being 'evasive'; and then go on to speculate at large on what the decision might be (which would mightily piss off the Board). If you say 'No', the worst the story can accuse you of is being 'indecisive' - not so bad, not even 'news' really.

[Edited 2005-12-04 05:15:41]
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
antares
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RE: Boeing Nose Ahead In Qantas Order Race

Sun Dec 04, 2005 1:39 pm

I thought Dixon's performance in the teleivsed interview on Inside Business on the ABC was fascinating, and I'd take it at face value. Its awfully close. The interviewer didn't ask if it was a split order, or non-stops to London, or anything really interesting, but I can't imagine they want at least order 777-300 ERs and perhaps 5 or 6 -200LRs if the business/operational case gets over the line.

Wonder if there isn't one of those classic plays going on here with Airbus lowering the option price on the extra 12 A380s.

I think but do not know that Qantas may put off the 787 committment until it is happy it has the right size and right specs.

The programme finished with the First Person segment in which Stoddart did a good job of defending his new venture. He said he'd ignore what the experts who didn't pay the bills said, but would listen to the customers.

I take that as a hint that the product format will be changed sooner rather than later if the expected customers keep staying away.

Antares
 
WestWing
Posts: 1139
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 2:01 am

RE: Boeing Nose Ahead In Qantas Order Race

Sun Dec 04, 2005 1:55 pm

Antares: Did Dixon actually use the words "we have not decided" in the interview or is that the Reuters reporter's interpretation of what Dixon meant.

NAV20: I do understand your point, but if Dixon et. al. have made a final decision, it seems to me a perfectly acceptable (and probably even truthful) evasive answer could have been:

"Well, we are putting forward our recommendations to the board. I'm sure you understand that I cannot comment on our recommendations. If our recommendations are approved by the board, we will issue a press release shortly therafter."
The best time to plant a tree is 40 years ago. The second best time is today.
 
NAV20
Posts: 8453
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 3:25 pm

RE: Boeing Nose Ahead In Qantas Order Race

Sun Dec 04, 2005 2:40 pm

Fair enough, WestWing - but 'No' has the merit of being shorter.  Smile

I also take Antares' point - a tender process ain't over till it's over. Puts me in mind of getting a phone call from a tenderer at about 10.15, with tenders closing at 11.00. I can honestly say that I didn't seek to influence him (stories about that sort of thing get about in a 'small town' like Melbourne) - but he seemed to stir himself up nicely just by talking about the issues.

When his (successful) tender came in it was nicely typed up, illustrated, and bound. The only untidy bit was at the very end - the offered purchase price had been formally typed out in full, words and figures; but that had been crossed out and a higher figure had been written in with a ballpoint.  Smile

Successful tender, anyway - he was happy, and so was the client.
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: Boeing Nose Ahead In Qantas Order Race

Sun Dec 04, 2005 3:39 pm

Damn this is getting nail biting....its like the whole EK A350 ordeal..but even bigger......

My feeling is though that the 777 will win over the A340's.....of course I'm extremely biased, but so what...it's fun... Silly

the 787/A350's will be a big challenge and this could be a tougie..could go either way..but it won't be "all or none"....
"Up the Irons!"
 
 
geoffthomas
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2005 8:43 am

RE: Boeing Nose Ahead In Qantas Order Race

Tue Dec 06, 2005 9:01 am

Just for the record, I am also co-writing two books on Airbus aircraft. One is an A380 book and the other a pictorial study tracing the technological achievements and the many firsts of European aviation.
I strive to be impartial and the person who referred to my work as Senior Editor of ATW is right I have been very critical of Boeing and its production and pricing policies plus its dithering in the late 1990s.
Best
Geoffrey Thomas
 
atmx2000
Posts: 4301
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 4:24 pm

RE: Boeing Nose Ahead In Qantas Order Race

Tue Dec 06, 2005 9:10 am

Quoting Geoffthomas (Reply 92):
Best
Geoffrey Thomas

Welcome!

Wow, an aviation journalist posting under his own name on A.net.

Maybe a certain other journalist will be shamed into revealing his identity.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
Gemuser
Posts: 5078
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 12:07 pm

RE: Boeing Nose Ahead In Qantas Order Race

Tue Dec 06, 2005 9:16 am

Quoting Geoffthomas (Reply 92):
Just for the record, I am also co-writing two books on Airbus aircraft. One is an A380 book and the other a pictorial study tracing the technological achievements and the many firsts of European aviation.
I strive to be impartial and the person who referred to my work as Senior Editor of ATW is right I have been very critical of Boeing and its production and pricing policies plus its dithering in the late 1990s.
Best
Geoffrey Thomas

Great! An actual report/author responds! Love him or hate him thats REALLY close author/reader relationship.

Welcombe Geoff, may we see many more posts from you! [But watch out for the A v B flame wars!!!  Smile

Gemuser
DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
 
geoffthomas
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2005 8:43 am

RE: Boeing Nose Ahead In Qantas Order Race

Tue Dec 06, 2005 9:20 am

Tks for the welcome. I think its important to post under my name so there is no hidden agenda. Hope I have something useful to contribute from time to time.
Best GT
 
N60659
Posts: 639
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 3:24 pm

RE: Boeing Nose Ahead In Qantas Order Race

Tue Dec 06, 2005 9:32 am

Geoff,

I extend my hearty welcome as well.

Quoting Geoffthomas (Reply 95):
Hope I have something useful to contribute from time to time.

I am sure you will help elevate the level of dialogue here with your unique insight. Hope to read more of your posts here in the future.

-N60659
Nec Dextrorsum Nec Sinistrorsum
 
NAV20
Posts: 8453
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 3:25 pm

RE: Boeing Nose Ahead In Qantas Order Race

Tue Dec 06, 2005 9:38 am

Good morning Geoff, welcome!

Do you happen to know whether Qantas are planning a press conference and/or post-Board Meeting press release today; and if so, at what time?

Just wondering if they're going to 'put us out of our misery' about the orders today, or keep us wondering  Smile
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
geoffthomas
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2005 8:43 am

RE: Boeing Nose Ahead In Qantas Order Race

Tue Dec 06, 2005 11:13 am

My understanding is that the board meeting is Wednesday Dec 7 and that there will be either an announcement after the stock exchange closes or more likely before it opens on Thursday morning. That assumes that they place an order and cannot see a delay as an option as they will lose production slots that have earmarked by both Airbus and Boeing. I will pass on what I get the moment I learn of anything. Hope this helps.
Best GT
041 793 6610
 
norcal
Posts: 1507
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2005 1:44 am

RE: Boeing Nose Ahead In Qantas Order Race

Tue Dec 06, 2005 11:18 am

Quoting Geoffthomas (Reply 98):
That assumes that they place an order and cannot see a delay as an option as they will lose production slots that have earmarked by both Airbus and Boeing. I will pass on what I get the moment I learn of anything. Hope this helps.

Do you have any more info than we do? If you are allowed to answer, any idea which way this will swing?

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