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Gatorman96
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Man Claiming Bomb Shot By Air Marshall At MIA

Thu Dec 08, 2005 8:33 am

Other thread was getting way too big...
 
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EA CO AS
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Man Claiming Bomb Shot By Air Marshall At MIA

Thu Dec 08, 2005 8:45 am

Quoting Gatorman96 (Thread starter):
Other thread was getting way too big...

Good call.  bigthumbsup 

Anyway, I have to agree with my friend ANCFlyer and several others - it's not like we have bloodthirsty FAMs who were hoping to use their weapons in the line of duty. These people were responding to what they perceived - and justifiably so - as a significant threat to the lives of others.

The man presented an overt threat; one who did not comply with several commands from these people who clearly identified themselves as law enforcement officials.

At that point, they had little time to react and chose to defend the lives of the innocent.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
Gatorman96
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Man Claiming Bomb Shot By Air Marshall At MIA

Thu Dec 08, 2005 8:52 am

Thanks, I agree totally with you. I wish people would switch to this thread. It's way too hard to keep up with everyone's posts!
 
ANCFlyer
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Man Claiming Bomb Shot By Air Marshall At MIA

Thu Dec 08, 2005 8:58 am

I'm baffled (well, not completely) at the members here that continue to repeat:

He didn't have a bomb!
He was BiPolar!

I guess Clairvoyance runs rampant through Civ-Aviation . . . as they FAM surely knew all of this in the five or less seconds in which he had to decide what to do . . . and of course his X-Ray vision allowed him to see into the bag, and reveal there was no bomb . . . he just decided it was time to cap the brown skin man in the head with a couple of .40 cal rounds . . . after having decided Pepper Spray would be no fun and besides, he probably needed that later for his Nachos. So be it  sarcastic  sarcastic  sarcastic 

Good Call FAM.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
MD88Captain
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Man Claiming Bomb Shot By Air Marshall At MIA

Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:01 am

I believe that every possible scenario has been thought through and rehearsed by the FAM's. The correct responses have been drilled into their minds so that they would second-guess themselves at the critical moment. This was the critical moment. I understand that some are shocked by the death of a mentally unstable man, but that's not the FAM's problem. They dealt with an uncooperative and credible threat. Those advocating "shooting his hand" are living in their own dream world. Cops shoot to stop. They shoot for your middle. The really elite practice the head shot.
 
AAgent
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Man Claiming Bomb Shot By Air Marshall At MIA

Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:03 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 3):
I'm baffled (well, not completely) at the members here that continue to repeat:

He didn't have a bomb!
He was BiPolar!

I guess Clairvoyance runs rampant through Civ-Aviation . . . as they FAM surely knew all of this in the five or less seconds in which he had to decide what to do . . . and of course his X-Ray vision allowed him to see into the bag, and reveal there was no bomb . . . he just decided it was time to cap the brown skin man in the head with a couple of .40 cal rounds . . . after having decided Pepper Spray would be no fun and besides, he probably needed that later for his Nachos.

So true! Some would appear to have trouble imagining what it would have been like to have been faced with such a terrible and rapidly escalating bomb threat scenario. Assuming the basic story report is true, kudos to the FAM's involved.
War Eagle!
 
usnseallt82
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Man Claiming Bomb Shot By Air Marshall At MIA

Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:05 am

Here are some of my quotes from the earlier thread.....good job on starting a new one, by the way.....

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 223):
MD80fananatic has truely proven to be the next B744F, and now it's time to sit back and watch the entertainment.

 checkmark 

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 223):
Arm-chair cops, arm-chair FAMs, arm-chair know-it-alls, always quick to blame any figure of authority.

 checkmark 

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 230):
I'm so glad to know he was wearing a t-shirt with the words "I'M BIPOLAR AND NOT ON MY MEDS" on the front.

 checkmark  yes 

Yet, somehow, people truly believe that the officer should have known this and booked a conference room to discuss the matter before acting.

Quoting MD88Captain (Reply 236):
This incident proves the airlines to be harder targets than in pre-9/11 days AND it pretty well lays out the consequences for bad behavoir.

 checkmark  I agree. While this won't deter terrorism much in other areas, this does prove that the officers on board these flights won't hesitate to move into action when the shit hits the fan. The American public should be thankful for these people protecting the underated priviledge of flying.

Quoting MD88Captain (Reply 236):
The FAMs should get a medal for doing their job very well.

 checkmark 

Quoting Myt332 (Reply 237):
I think you'll find it's you and that twisted view that is wrong.

I'm sorry, but you are dead wrong in this assumption. This event is something that would have taken place before Sept. 11, and is a standard sequence for law enforcement bodies around the nation. To isolate this as being a gun-crazy FAM is just plain retarded.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 259):
I am not stupid, hence why I haven't jumped to congratulate the officer who did this shooting

No, you haven't congradulated him because people like you don't realize the immense amount of dedication and training it takes to actually pull the trigger. You think he was just jumping to conclusions, but those with half an ounce of sanity know how much training and decisiveness it took to do this. You should be grateful that someone is there to protect you. Unfortunately, people like you have nothing else but pride in yourself and no clue about the realities that surround you.
Crye me a river
 
APFPilot1985
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Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:05 am

The FAM doesnt have time to think about possible scenarios, how does he know if the guy has an inside man?
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Electech6299
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Man Claiming Bomb Shot By Air Marshall At MIA

Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:05 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 1):
Anyway, I have to agree with my friend ANCFlyer and several others - it's not like we have bloodthirsty FAMs who were hoping to use their weapons in the line of duty. These people were responding to what they perceived - and justifiably so - as a significant threat to the lives of others.

Yes, I agree. We've had armed air marshalls with the same instructions, post- 9/11, since September of 2001. Now it's December of 2005, and the first time a FAM has discharged a firearm in the line of duty. Not exactly what I would call trigger-happy. I know a lot of gun-happy hunters, and let me assure you that they wouldn't go 51 months without a "shoot-to-kill" event.   

Edit: Another possibility I have been thinking of, that could have crossed the FAM's mind: What if, not only did the guy have a bomb, but a female accomplice to help him get away by confusing the situation. The classic training exercise is the tag-team "distract-defeat" scenario. If the FAM heard the wife, and she said what she did while attracting as much attention as possible to herself, I would label her an accomplice and restrain her too, until the matter could be straightened out. So both detained & guilty = good call, both detained and innocent = good call. Unfortunately it couldn't happen that way b/c the prime suspect got himself shot first, and the wife's rant didn't help, and may have hindered, the situation. (I'd hate to be the one trying to console her now...)

A second thought: What if the media reports are (not surprisingly) vague about the timing, and it was not until the gunshots that the wife went nuts. Then nobody had any chance of knowing this guy's mental condition, and the media are there reporting it backwards because now it's a story that sells.

[Edited 2005-12-08 01:17:07]
Send not to know for whom the bell tolls...it tolls for thee
 
usnseallt82
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Man Claiming Bomb Shot By Air Marshall At MIA

Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:09 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 3):
I'm baffled (well, not completely) at the members here that continue to repeat:

It drives me crazy. These are the people who will sit and bitch about there not being enough protection in the skies to transport their fat asses in luxury around the world, but who will turn their backs on those who dedicate their lives to protect their miserable existence. I don't understand what drives people to think so narrow-mindedly, but this website seems to be a magnet for those ideologies.

This officer put his life on the line and took the action needed to resolve the situation. If people could step out of their shallow little boxes for one second and imagine what would have happened if this guy did have a bomb, then they might have a tiny bit of gratitude.
Crye me a river
 
Gr8Circle
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Man Claiming Bomb Shot By Air Marshall At MIA

Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:09 am

What was the background...ethnicity...of the person who got shot? Sorry, can't open the orginal thread...to large....crashes my browser each time I try....and yes, it IS necessary for me to ask this question....
 
Gatorman96
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Man Claiming Bomb Shot By Air Marshall At MIA

Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:12 am

All I know is if this guy was of Arab descent, i think I would say off A.Net for about...a year.
 
APFPilot1985
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Man Claiming Bomb Shot By Air Marshall At MIA

Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:14 am

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 10):
What was the background...ethnicity...of the person who got shot? Sorry, can't open the orginal thread...to large....crashes my browser each time I try....and yes, it IS necessary for me to ask this question....

Costa Rican American Citizen
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md80fanatic
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Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:14 am

I can't access the other thread either. Did anyone explain why the media showed police detonating suspicious looking bags?
 
N1120A
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Man Claiming Bomb Shot By Air Marshall At MIA

Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:14 am

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 6):
Unfortunately, people like you have nothing else but pride in yourself and no clue about the realities that surround you.

No, it is people who follow blindly like you who have no clue about the realities that surround you.

Quoting APFPilot1985 (Reply 7):
The FAM doesnt have time to think about possible scenarios, how does he know if the guy has an inside man?

So we are hiring complete idiots incapable of multi-layered thought and handing them guns on pressurized tubes that fly over 80% the speed of sound? That makes a whole lot of sense.

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 6):
You should be grateful that someone is there to protect you.

Yes, and I am sure I am supposed to be greatful for Jesus Christ, George Bush, Rupert Murdoch and Ariel Sharon too.  sarcastic  People need to remember that there is much more to the world than police power

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 6):
but those with half an ounce of sanity know how much training and decisiveness it took to do this.

Finding a reason to shoot is the easy part when faced with a confrontation. Finding a reason not to is the hard part that takes decisiveness.

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 6):
No, you haven't congradulated him because people like you don't realize the immense amount of dedication and training it takes to actually pull the trigger.

I don't want police dedicated to pulling the trigger, I want them dedicated to not pulling it.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
TheSonntag
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Man Claiming Bomb Shot By Air Marshall At MIA

Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:18 am

Somehow it is funny: When a plane crashes, everybody is saying: Wait for the final report before you jump to conclusions.

In this case, everybody comes with the widest assumptions, already starting a flame war again.

Shooting and killing must be avoided at all possible costs. I already think the whole concept of Sky Marshals isn't contributing to safety, however I accept that for example El Al is forced to have them, and I acknowledge that the US have a bigger need for security, as 9/11 proved.

I think an official investigation whether it was justified to shoot the guy will take place. Let's wait for it and it's results. But I find the whole direction this security issue is going VERY ALARMING. As important as security is, and while I agree that shooting terrorits with bombs might be inevitable, I fear the US are developing more and more to a policy of "shooting as soon as there is the slightest fear for doubt".

Shooting must be the final step, not an alternative expected to happen. I don't know what happened in this case. If it seemed that the guy looked like he would blow a bomb, shooting him might have been necessary, BUT ONLY if this proved to be the only possible way to stop him and ONLY IFthere were NO reasonable DOUBTS on what he intended to. Lets see whether this was the case or not.

A society where you have to fear to be shot just because a law officer thinks you are a terrorist has no freedom left!
 
ctbarnes
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Man Claiming Bomb Shot By Air Marshall At MIA

Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:20 am

He didn't have a bomb, he was bi-polar and he was shouting that he had a bomb. In the heat of the moment the FAM's are going to react in the predictable fashion (not knowing all the details, though, admittedly).

Sorry, guys, but unless something else emerges I'm going to have to side with the FAM's on this one. Obviously I'd prefer this have been handled more peaceably, but the risk of death or injury to countless others leaves them with little choice.

Charles, SJ
The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
 
lowrider
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Man Claiming Bomb Shot By Air Marshall At MIA

Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:21 am

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 10):
it IS necessary for me to ask this question....

Why? Do you think that law enforcment operates under the impression that any terrorist will be dark skinned, dark haired, and be wearing some sort of cloth headgear? They are well aware that a terrorist could have any appearence or could be of either gender. Look at the ones who took over the school in Georgia. They are as white as anyone and hate the US (along with Russia and several other countries) as much as anyone from the Middle East.

I think it is very safe to say that had he not taken the actions he did, he would not have been shot, regardless of his ethnicity.
Proud OOTSK member
 
Gatorman96
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Man Claiming Bomb Shot By Air Marshall At MIA

Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:21 am

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 13):
I can't access the other thread either. Did anyone explain why the media showed police detonating suspicious looking bags?

To add to the story. The police were obviously covering every aspect. I found it a little overdone to blow up the bags, but that is another issue...
 
ctbarnes
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Man Claiming Bomb Shot By Air Marshall At MIA

Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:22 am

Previous thread was locked, probably because it was getting too big to download.

Charles, SJ

P.S: I just checked and was still able to access it.

[Edited 2005-12-08 01:24:20]
The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
 
Electech6299
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Man Claiming Bomb Shot By Air Marshall At MIA

Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:23 am

Sorry for the length, MD80, a few pertinent posts from MIA thread1)

Quoting Electech6299 (Reply 255):
Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 235):
Let me ask this. If everyone aboard that plane had a personal firearm (not counting the FAM), do you think that anyone was alarmed enough by his behaviour to drop the dude where he stood? He made the entire flight and was disembarking....and all the sudden it's time to confront him? Makes little sense.


BTW, I read the stream of conscienceness posting above when this was going down...and some folks posted about the police exploding "suspicious looking bags". Why did the media choose to show officers in the process of exploding some random bag, since the now dead man had no explosives the bag could not have been his? Sounds like pre-conditioning, causing those watching to feel even more justified in dropping this dude. It's wrong.

MD80fanatic, it appears from your reasoning (I'm trying to understand, bear with me...) that you are assuming all of the "minority opinion" and contradictory evidence of every media report. You still assume that:
1) He made the bomb threat in flight
2) The event occurred during deplaning after flight (before customs?)
3) The FAM was on the flight in which the fight with his wife occurred
4) The wife was coherent and rationally explained her husband's condition in a way to sufficiciently communicate it to the FAM during a crisis
5) The man was acting "erratically" but not "threatening"
6) The man merely charged the police instead of "stating he had a bomb and reaching into his bag"
7) The federal government and any other "big guy authority figure" has a vested interest in supressing the voice and conscience of the public.

All of these assertions have been more often contradicted than reinforced by the press (and some outright disproven even at this early stage). Even so, granting the first six of your assertions, I would maybe (after a fully informed investigation) admit that this FAM maybe made a rash choice. But that still does not indicate to me any validity for the seventh point, which is the great divide between your logic and mine. From my perspective, I see each of your posts seem to begin with that assumption, and the reason for the post is to counteract it. I would find your arguments more reasonable to present that as a possibility than a foregone conclusion. I am no stranger to "misrepresentation of the facts"- a reality that has colored significant areas of my life. But I still do not see that as a foregone conclusion when most people are merely trying to gather information and understand- or report- what happened.

As to your posts (forgive me if this is outdated, this is a fast-moving thread...)

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 235):
I don't think so. The founding fathers never lived past 9-11, and if they had we would be in an entirely different, less fearful country.

I don't agree with that- if I understand history correctly the founding fathers lived in a much more dangerous time. Don't forget that they penned the right to bear arms, as much for civil defense for their fledgling nation as for defense "from" the government. Nobody questioned when a minuteman discharged his musket. If, on the other hand, your argument is that the founding fathers were "great men, the likes of scarce to be found today", I might agree to some extent, but with attention to the fact that culture either deifies or demonizes it's predecessors, and rarely presents them with the humanity they actually possessed.

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 235):
the difference is that before 9-11 this kind of thing would result in serious jail time, now it results in death. See the difference?

I'm not convinced, except that pre- 9/11 we did not have gun-toting FAMs on hundreds (thousands?) of flights every day. If a gun-bearing LEO was in the same situation, they likely would have acted in the same fashion. Nothing new, in the Patriot act or otherwise, was in play in MIA today.

edit: The major assumption I'm wondering about is that blowing up bags is merely a "publicity stunt" - since it is known this guy doesn't have a bomb.

How is that known? Did you know the guy personally? Did you read any reports that said he definitely didn't have a bomb? The last radio report I heard said that the X-ray screening of his luggage was "inconclusive and suspect", meaning they probably found something with a similar consistency with explosive. (garlic paste?) So it seems entirely rational to neutralize this poor chap's luggage. It's not like he'll be needing it. And it's not like his carry-on was the only place a bomb could have potentially been.

And won't we all feel silly if tomorrow morning the press release from DHS is that this guy was carrying a suicide note and a detonator and his checked bag had an explosive and he just panicked before the flight took off?

[Edited 2005-12-08 00:54:19]



Quoting Electech6299 (Reply 228):
The voice of reason- remember, every time a LEO discharges a firearm in the line of duty there is an investigation. When a person is wounded the investigation is carried out on many levels. When a person is killed, it's the top brass that are putting their noses into this individual's split-second decisions in a difficult situation. People with far better information, training, and perspective will be scrutinizing this incident. Let's not prove ourselves to be imbeciles by attempting to do their job without any of the tools or qualifications beyond early and contradictory press reports. This FAM's got a rough road ahead. He deserves a pat on the back today.


[Edited 2005-12-08 01:27:45]
Send not to know for whom the bell tolls...it tolls for thee
 
phljjs
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Man Claiming Bomb Shot By Air Marshall At MIA

Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:24 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 3):
Good Call FAM

I don't agree with ANCFlyer on a lot of things, but I definitely agree with him on this one. FAMS just like all LEO's are trained to shoot to kill. Hell, in Pennsylvania, state law says you have to shoot to kill even if your a civilian who is carrying a gun for personal defense. You are not allowed to shoot to wound or mame. You MUST shoot to kill.
 
APFPilot1985
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Man Claiming Bomb Shot By Air Marshall At MIA

Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:25 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 14):
So we are hiring complete idiots incapable of multi-layered thought and handing them guns on pressurized tubes that fly over 80% the speed of sound? That makes a whole lot of sense.

man you must be perfect
Stand Up and Be Counted Visit Site Related to Voice your opinion
 
neilalp
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Man Claiming Bomb Shot By Air Marshall At MIA

Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:25 am

Why don't FAM use Tazers? The guy would have been screwed, but his life wouldn't have been taken.
 
OPNLguy
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Man Claiming Bomb Shot By Air Marshall At MIA

Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:25 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 14):
I don't want police dedicated to pulling the trigger, I want them dedicated to not pulling it.

Nobody in this thread (or the other one) was in the FAM's shoes, nor was was this scenario conducive to a committee decision. If you think you'd be the kind of "dedicated" LEO that you espouse above, chances are good that you'd eventually have a park or elementary school "dedicated" in your honor once you were killed in the line-of-duty from hesitating when you shouldn't have.

Someone needs to drive a wooden stake through the heart of this thread and kill it, since it's gotten so far off course that a dual GPS installation couldn't get it back to something remotely related to "civil avaition." It's more suited for Non-Aviation now...
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
ctbarnes
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Man Claiming Bomb Shot By Air Marshall At MIA

Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:25 am

Quoting PHLJJS (Reply 21):
You are not allowed to shoot to wound or mame. You MUST shoot to kill.

What's the reasoning, just out of curiosity?
The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
 
N1120A
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Man Claiming Bomb Shot By Air Marshall At MIA

Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:25 am

Quoting APFPilot1985 (Reply 22):
man you must be perfect

Perfection has nothing to do with it, this is basic.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
md80fanatic
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Man Claiming Bomb Shot By Air Marshall At MIA

Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:26 am

Our friends from "across the pond" make sense here, they have seen this kind of thing before. They are alerting us that we are following the same path. Alarming? Quite so.

Thanks Electech for the copy-paste.

[Edited 2005-12-08 01:30:40]
 
TWAMD-80
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Man Claiming Bomb Shot By Air Marshall At MIA

Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:28 am

Quoting MD88Captain (Reply 4):
Those advocating "shooting his hand" are living in their own dream world.

Thank you! The people that are saying "shoot his hand" obviously have no idea what they're talking about.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 14):
So we are hiring complete idiots incapable of multi-layered thought and handing them guns on pressurized tubes that fly over 80% the speed of sound? That makes a whole lot of sense.

FAM's are trained for these scenarios. Like pilots, they have very quick reactions when the seconds count. N1120A, I am beginning to think you are enjoying this pointless arguing with people.  Wink

TW
Two A-4's, left ten o'clock level continue left turn!
 
turbo7x7
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Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:29 am

It seems everyone is forgetting here that in the years before 9-11, there were hardly any air marshals left, it was pretty much a dead program.

So if this incident had happended pre 9-11, I think you just would have had a crazy person running around saying he had a bomb. . . until some other airport security official shot him down or he was apprehended another way.

In any case, an innocent person was killed today, a casualty of the War on "Tarra" For now, bin Laden & Co. score a point. A govt. accidentally killing its own citizens due to the tighter security infrastructure is EVEN BETTER than the terrorists doing their own dirty work. . .
 
Gatorman96
Topic Author
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Man Claiming Bomb Shot By Air Marshall At MIA

Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:31 am

I think we just need to accept the fact this happened, it's sad but it happened and we can't go back on it. Thankfully it was only one casuality and not a terminal full of them. This debate is just going in circles!
 
Gatorman96
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Man Claiming Bomb Shot By Air Marshall At MIA

Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:32 am

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 27):
Our friends from "across the pond" make sense here, they have seen this kind of thing before. They are alerting us that we are following the same path. Alarming? Quite so.

They've experienced 9/11?
 
N1120A
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Man Claiming Bomb Shot By Air Marshall At MIA

Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:36 am

Quoting TWAMD-80 (Reply 28):
N1120A, I am beginning to think you are enjoying this pointless arguing with people.

I don't enjoy pointless arguing, I am actually trying to make a point that I don't think will ever get through. Still, I try.

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 24):
Nobody in this thread (or the other one) was in the FAM's shoes, nor was was this scenario conducive to a committee decision. If you think you'd be the kind of "dedicated" LEO that you espouse above, chances are good that you'd eventually have a park or elementary school "dedicated" in your honor once you were killed in the line-of-duty from hesitating when you shouldn't have.

See, I am not talking about some guy who is pointing a gun at me. This is a person who is A) crazy and acting alone B) crazy and making it up (as he was) or C) acting in concert and his death means we wont figure out who else is involved.

Honestly, if you are a terrorist who is going to bomb a plane, are you going to announce your intentions? Did the London bombers say "hey, mate, gonna set off this bomb over here on the platform now"? No, they just blew the place up. If someone is stating something they are most likely faking or are going to ask for demands. By that time, they can be subdued and taken into custody.

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 24):
Someone needs to drive a wooden stake through the heart of this thread and kill it, since it's gotten so far off course that a dual GPS installation couldn't get it back to something remotely related to "civil avaition." It's more suited for Non-Aviation now...

Agreed, and that is funny.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
Gatorman96
Topic Author
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Man Claiming Bomb Shot By Air Marshall At MIA

Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:37 am

Aight everyone, I'm off to the bars...I'll drink a little bit extra for everyone
 
stuckinMAF
Posts: 1022
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Man Claiming Bomb Shot By Air Marshall At MIA

Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:38 am

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 15):
A society where you have to fear to be shot just because a law officer thinks you are a terrorist has no freedom left!

I don't fear that. You know why? Because I'm not running around giving them reasonable cause to shoot me!

Quoting Neilalp (Reply 23):
Why don't FAM use Tazers? The guy would have been screwed, but his life wouldn't have been taken.

A taser (note proper spelling) would not have done any good in this case because it causes muscles to contract. Not the kind of thing you want to happen if someone has their finger on a triggering device.

Quoting PHLJJS (Reply 21):
Hell, in Pennsylvania, state law says you have to shoot to kill even if your a civilian who is carrying a gun for personal defense. You are not allowed to shoot to wound or mame. You MUST shoot to kill.

If you will look at your state's statutes, you'll note that it is "shoot to STOP", NOT "shoot to KILL". BIG difference.
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity" -Sigmund Freud
 
ctbarnes
Posts: 3269
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 2:20 pm

Man Claiming Bomb Shot By Air Marshall At MIA

Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:40 am

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 27):
Our friends from "across the pond" make sense here, they have seen this kind of thing before. They are alerting us that we are following the same path. Alarming? Quite so.

Except in Britain and in most of Europe the who patrol airports police are armed. I'm no expert in law enforcement but I'm at a loss as to what the reasonable alternatives may be.

I may believe the FAM's actions may have been justifiable, but that does not mean we should be congratulating them for a job well done either. What happened was tragic. Understandable, but tragic.

Quoting Gatorman96 (Reply 18):
To add to the story. The police were obviously covering every aspect. I found it a little overdone to blow up the bags, but that is another issue...

Probably SOP in these cases as a percaution.

Charles, SJ
The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
 
md80fanatic
Posts: 2365
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 11:29 pm

Man Claiming Bomb Shot By Air Marshall At MIA

Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:42 am

Quoting Gatorman96 (Reply 31):
Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 27):
Our friends from "across the pond" make sense here, they have seen this kind of thing before. They are alerting us that we are following the same path. Alarming? Quite so.

They've experienced 9/11?

This wasn't 9-11, and everything we do cannot be attributed to that horrible day from now until the end of time. IMO, we have already worn out our welcome with the world by pointing always to 9-11, as if 9-11 was the first and only time that a shadow force ever tried to dupe a good country into war. They have all had their 9-11s throughout history....ours was the most recent.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26568
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

Man Claiming Bomb Shot By Air Marshall At MIA

Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:43 am

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 36):

You know what, if you want to hurl insults like this at me, do it on the other board, because that is what it is there for. My responses will be there too, because they are not fit for A.net
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
usnseallt82
Posts: 4727
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2004 4:49 pm

Man Claiming Bomb Shot By Air Marshall At MIA

Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:44 am

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 34):
I don't fear that. You know why? Because I'm not running around giving them reasonable cause to shoot me!

 checkmark  checkmark  checkmark  checkmark 

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 34):
Not the kind of thing you want to happen if someone has their finger on a triggering device.

 checkmark  checkmark  checkmark  checkmark 
Crye me a river
 
prebennorholm
Posts: 7074
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2000 6:25 am

Man Claiming Bomb Shot By Air Marshall At MIA

Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:45 am

To all those who question the way the FAM acted, can you imagine reading in tomorrow's newspaper:

"FAM was seen pepper-spraying a passenger while he reached for his rucksack and trickered a bomb killing himself, the FAM, 20 other passengers and injuring 50 more. Also read on page 10 a report from passenger Mr. X who's 6 years old daughter lost eyesight and one arm". Etc.

I just wonder how your reaction then would have been.

Someone asked on the original thread how he could possibly get a bomb into the airport in the first place?

I won't tell you how. But security is not 100% in this respect, and I do hope that they will find the greater part of bombs, making it a little fruitful job to be a bomb terrorist.

The question is, should mentally sick people travel by air without proper supervision? Or by train or bus? Well, we can't remove all risks. Of course it depends on "how ill", and there is a large grey area here.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
TheSonntag
Posts: 4439
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:23 pm

Man Claiming Bomb Shot By Air Marshall At MIA

Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:45 am

Quoting Gatorman96 (Reply 31):

No, but terrorism is a common sight in Europe, be it ETA bombings in Spain, RAF Terror in Germany in the 70s, IRA bombing in Northern Ireland, just to name a few.

However, this is not about 9/11. It is about attitude towards guns. Sky Marshals are just one symbol for a security paranoia which simply seems to get out of hand. Don't get me wrong, terrorism IS a big problem, 9/11 was a completely new usage of Terrorism, but this does not mean to throw all values over board which have been gathered during the last centuries.

"If you give up freedom to get more security, you will end up losing both".

I think the problem is the way of how to deal with the need for more security, which certainly exists. From many threads I got the impression that the opinion of law enforcement authorities in the US is shifting over from the "everybody is innocent unless proven otherwise" doctrin to a point of view that says: "everybody is a terrorist, SHOOT AT SIGHT".

This creates a climate of fear, which, in my opinion, is boosting terrorism instead of reducing its threat...

And yes, too much state and too much security can be alarming...
 
ContnlEliteCMH
Posts: 1385
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2005 8:19 am

Man Claiming Bomb Shot By Air Marshall At MIA

Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:47 am

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 15):
Shooting and killing must be avoided at all possible costs.

I agree. Regardless of where you stand on gun control, the role of law enforcement, civil liberties, etc. this statement is so obvious that I'm not sure why it needs to be said.

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 15):
But I find the whole direction this security issue is going VERY ALARMING. As important as security is, and while I agree that shooting terrorits with bombs might be inevitable, I fear the US are developing more and more to a policy of "shooting as soon as there is the slightest fear for doubt".

The evidence suggests that your fear is only your own personal neurosis.

This is the first time in 51 months that any FAM has discharged his firearm.

I repeat: it is the ONLY incident. Perhaps you find a single incident to be an alarming trend, but I for one require more than a single data point to spot trends.

In fact, isn't it contradictory to urge that we wait for the investigation, for firm conclusions -- and then totally disregard such an approach with regard to "trends" and "fears?"

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 15):
A society where you have to fear to be shot just because a law officer thinks you are a terrorist has no freedom left!

I agree. Again, your statement (a) is obvious, but (b) does not fit the existing facts of the situation for which you urge us to draw conclusions at a later time. What should we do? What you tell us, or what you actually do? They seem to be somewhat opposite.

Also, please tell us under which conditions you would approve of lethal action like this. Is it "under no condition?" If so, have the courage to say so. At least we can better gauge your position that way.
Christianity. Islam. Hinduism. Anthropogenic Global Warming. All are matters of faith!
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 15730
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

Man Claiming Bomb Shot By Air Marshall At MIA

Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:48 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 14):
Quoting APFPilot1985 (Reply 7):
The FAM doesnt have time to think about possible scenarios, how does he know if the guy has an inside man?

So we are hiring complete idiots incapable of multi-layered thought and handing them guns on pressurized tubes that fly over 80% the speed of sound? That makes a whole lot of sense.

Please tell me you're joking - because until right now, while we disagree occasionally, I've at least respected your intellect.

APFPilot was pretty clear that the FAM doesn't have time to think about those scenarios - not that he's INCAPABLE of such thought or that these are concepts that elude him!

TIME is the factor, and when you're faced with what appears to be a life-or-death scenario you do not have the luxury of taking the time to examine all possible angles of what has presented itself.

Which, in this case, was a loud man acting in a threatening manner and verbally declaring he had a bomb in his bag - and then not only ignoring the LEOs repeated demands for him to get on the ground, but actually moving his hand into the bag!

So again - are you serious, or were you just joking? I sincerely hope it's the latter of the two, even though it's not a joking matter.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
DarthRandall
Posts: 293
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 8:17 am

Man Claiming Bomb Shot By Air Marshall At MIA

Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:48 am

Man, we have to argue about everything here, don't we? Racism is a red herring. I'm a blue-eyed white boy, and I have no doubt that they would shoot me dead if I were on a plane saying I that I have a bomb and reaching for my bag. Wanting non-lethal methods of subduing potential terrorists isn't realistic either. If I were one of the other two-hundred people on the plane when that guy started talking about a bomb, you can bet I would want that flight marshall to be carrying a glock and not just a taser, and I think that's a fair thing to expect. Deadly force can be necessary and warrented on certain occasions. A potential hijacking is one of those occasions. Now, that fellow may have been mentally ill, but there's no time for an air marshall to determine something like that in that situation. Yeah, you have to feel sorry for him, but you can't blame the cop for doing his job.

One more thing--this has nothing to do with 9/11.
Ninjas can kill anyone they want! Ninjas cut off heads all the time and don't even think twice about it.
 
stuckinMAF
Posts: 1022
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 9:49 pm

Man Claiming Bomb Shot By Air Marshall At MIA

Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:49 am

Quoting PHLJJS (Reply 21):
Hell, in Pennsylvania, state law says you have to shoot to kill even if your a civilian who is carrying a gun for personal defense. You are not allowed to shoot to wound or mame. You MUST shoot to kill.

Actually, I just looked it up for you! Pennsylvania Title 18, Chapter 5, Section 508 says to wit:

§ 508. Use of force in law enforcement.
(a) Peace officer's use of force in making arrest.--

A peace officer, or any person whom he has summoned or directed to assist him, need not retreat or desist from efforts to make a lawful arrest because of resistance or threatened resistance to the arrest. He is justified in the use of any force which he believes to be necessary to effect the arrest and of any force which he believes to be necessary to defend himself or another from bodily harm while making the arrest. However, he is justified in using deadly force only when he believes that such force is necessary to prevent death or serious bodily injury to himself or such other person, or when he believes both that:
such force is necessary to prevent the arrest from being defeated by resistance or escape; and
the person to be arrested has committed or attempted a forcible felony or is attempting to escape and possesses a deadly weapon, or otherwise indicates that he will endanger human life or inflict serious bodily injury unless arrested without delay.
A peace officer making an arrest pursuant to an invalid warrant is justified in the use of any force which he would be justified in using if the warrant were valid, unless he knows that the warrant is invalid.

Source, http://members.aol.com/StatutesP8/18PA508.html

Now, STOP MAKING UP LAWS FOR YOUR OWN ARGUMENT!!!!
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity" -Sigmund Freud
 
md80fanatic
Posts: 2365
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 11:29 pm

Man Claiming Bomb Shot By Air Marshall At MIA

Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:52 am

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 34):
Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 15):
A society where you have to fear to be shot just because a law officer thinks you are a terrorist has no freedom left!

I don't fear that. You know why? Because I'm not running around giving them reasonable cause to shoot me!

You may have no fear now, but what if a passenger alerted a F/A because she mistakenly thought you said "bomb" when really you said "palm". Then as you are de-planing you reach for your favorite fountain pen and ... BANG, lights out .... well things like that are gonna happen, can't help it.

This is one more slide down an exceedingly slippery slope.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26568
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

Man Claiming Bomb Shot By Air Marshall At MIA

Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:54 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 43):
Please tell me you're joking - because until right now, while we disagree occasionally, I've at least respected your intellect.

APFPilot was pretty clear that the FAM doesn't have time to think about those scenarios - not that he's INCAPABLE of such thought or that these are concepts that elude him!

I was making a sarcastic remark as the post was written in a way that implied FAM's are there not to think about anything, just to shoot people. My remark was stating that there is much more to it than that and we must think abut it when evaluating a situation.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 43):
Which, in this case, was a loud man acting in a threatening manner and verbally declaring he had a bomb in his bag - and then not only ignoring the LEOs repeated demands for him to get on the ground, but actually moving his hand into the bag!

See this is entirely my point. The fact that the guy was in a sterile zone of an airport AND was being so obvious should instantly turn on a light. I mean, even if he could have gotten a completely built bomb into the airport, why would he announce he was going to detonate it, particularly knowing there was a man pointing a gun right at him. None of that adds up.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
airplane
Posts: 244
Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2004 2:54 am

Man Claiming Bomb Shot By Air Marshall At MIA

Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:57 am

I just saw on CNN, pax left from (UIO) Quito Ecuador on AA932, and he is an Ecuadorean/ American citizen 4 years old, connecting to Orlando.

JP
Gotta love seeing the world from above
 
stuckinMAF
Posts: 1022
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 9:49 pm

Man Claiming Bomb Shot By Air Marshall At MIA

Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:57 am

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 41):
but this does not mean to throw all values over board which have been gathered during the last centuries.

In the US, we have a little document that has been around for a couple of hundred years that we live by, maybe you've heard of it. It's called the United States Constitution. And the 2nd amendment of that constitution states in part:
"The right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

Having a firearm in the United States does not mean "throwing values overboard", it's part of being a RESPONSIBLE citizen. It is a large responsibility, but it is one that most of us are proud of. (No, I don't include MD80fanatic in that group, as I'm sure he is relieved).
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity" -Sigmund Freud
 
TheSonntag
Posts: 4439
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:23 pm

Man Claiming Bomb Shot By Air Marshall At MIA

Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:58 am

Quoting ContnlEliteCMH (Reply 42):
I agree. Again, your statement (a) is obvious, but (b) does not fit the existing facts of the situation for which you urge us to draw conclusions at a later time. What should we do? What you tell us, or what you actually do? They seem to be somewhat opposite.

Also, please tell us under which conditions you would approve of lethal action like this. Is it "under no condition?" If so, have the courage to say so. At least we can better gauge your position that way.

I see your point. My primary intention was to say that seeing things black and white is dangerous. It can very well be that the Air Marshal acted justified, based on the existing laws. I don't know that. But nevertheless this incident must lead to questions. And even if it was the first event, every innocent guy killed is one too much. Absolute safety cannot be guaranteed, this is true.

I don't want to tell the US either what to do or what not to do in terms of safety... I just see a dangerous tendency that all security measures are approved without CRITICAL REVIEW.

This is what it is all about: Remain critical, also towards your own government.

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