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ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: Man Claiming Bomb Shot By Air Marshall At MIA

Fri Dec 09, 2005 12:01 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 150):
But like I said the failure is the in the training, but since this guy will never be prosecuted for this murder (And it was a murder) those training failures will never come out.

Horsecrap L-188. Pure Horsecrap.

It's a demonstration that the training, the very rigorous training, recieved by the Air Marshals is working exactly as it should.

By the numbers, text book response to the situation.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 156):
He was shot in the terminal....not the plane.

He was shot on the jetway actually, and it this is irrelevent anyway.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 156):
The fact is that because he wasn't trained the marshall did exact opposite of what he should have done with a mental case....

And he knew this guy was a "mental case" as you put it how? Because his wife was hollering about it . . . .  redflag .

You're almost as bad an armchair cop as I've seen in this thread. I expected better from you my friend.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 165):
Quoting D L X (Reply 164):
Can you recognize a bi-polar incident?

I can't....not trained....

Yet you spew forth utter bullsh!t about how the police ought to do their jobs. Utter nonesense. Ridiculous.

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 196):
The man was returning home from an extended missionary trip. I am not sure if you are aware that specialty drugs, like he was prescribed for, are very difficult to obtain in areas where missionary work is being done, and in the unlikely event he managed to find some they would be exorbitantly expensive.

Then he should have planned better for the trip. . . . no one's fault but his own.


Gotta love it - I go off the net for about 10 hours and when I get back all the Arm-Chair Cops are still out here woulda, shoulda, coulda . . . blame the training, blame the wife, blame the medicine.

One more time ladies and gents: The FAM did exactly what he was supposed to do, and did it by the numbers according to every bit of training I've ever had. Use of Force Continuum followed. Chance of secondary casualties minimized (incident took place on the jetway, not in the aircraft or in the terminal - at best the jetway and cop would have been blown away), textbook example of the way to do it right.

All you Arm-Chair cops out there - your credibility sucks.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
kfllspotter
Posts: 92
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2004 10:22 am

RE: Man Claiming Bomb Shot By Air Marshall At MIA

Fri Dec 09, 2005 12:44 am

Whoa... Complete and utter amazement at the replies here. I took time yesterday to research the FAM job more, considering it's a career I've thought about. These guys in terms of skills are about the same as those in Special Forces. Dare you say they are trigger happy or inexperienced? Correct me if i'm wrong, but don't many of you say when an incident similar to this happens, "the guy should have been shot", but when he does, you all throw a fit? FAMs are highly trained federal officers, and as outlined in their job description...

"FAMs are designated as Federal Law Enforcement
Officers, deployed to protect airline passengers and/or crews, to prevent
threats against the aviation domain including airports and aircraft, and
to identify individuals or events known to pose, or suspected of posing a
risk of terrorism or a threat to airline or passenger safety."

furthermore...

"Consistent with the duties described herein, FAMs: administer, coordinate,
supervise or perform, investigative, analytical, or advisory work to
enforce Federal laws, regulations, or other mandatory guidelines; carry
firearms; make arrests without warrants for any offense against the United
States committed in their presence, or for any felony cognizable under the
laws of the United States if there is probable cause to believe that a
felony is or has been committed; seek and execute warrants for arrest or
seizure of evidence issued under the authority of the United States upon
probable cause that a violation has been committed; and identify and
interview witnesses and suspects."

With these specifications DIRECTLY from the Dept of Homeland Security, the FAM was within his job guidelines and did his job correctly, and as it should have been done. He saw a threat, attempted to contain it, was not able to, and therefore eliminated it. The FAM carried out his job, end of story.

[Edited 2005-12-08 16:47:12]
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 15728
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

RE: Man Claiming Bomb Shot By Air Marshall At MIA

Fri Dec 09, 2005 12:57 am

Quoting Oneworld1 (Reply 98):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 97):


Do you not understand the nature of mental illness?

I absolutely do understand. I also don't give a shit about their illness when they threaten others.

Quoting D L X (Reply 104):
if you KNOW you're epileptic, and drive a car, you will be liable for the injuries you cause if you have a seizure behind the wheel. I can't figure how this would be different.

But then, this is all post-arraingment hypothesizing anyway.

The actions that happened today were not about protecting a suspect's rights at trial, but were rather protecting the safety of as many people as possible.

Thank you, thank you, and thank you. Glad to see someone gets it.  bigthumbsup 

Quoting Flydl2atl (Reply 143):
Don't kid yourself...this was someone's husband...someone's son....someone's friend.

So was Mohammed Atta. Your point?
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
md80fanatic
Posts: 2365
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 11:29 pm

RE: Man Claiming Bomb Shot By Air Marshall At MIA

Fri Dec 09, 2005 1:03 am

Many times in history the excuse "I was just doing my job" was used, sometimes with horrific results. We still need to think beyond the procedures to be able to know when said procedures are wrong, we cannot blindly carry out every order given to us, we are not the Borg.

That said, I feel sorry for all those involved in this and I truly hope an amending of procedure results in the end. There are too many ways that a misunderstanding can occur, and the result it seems from this thread, is always going to be someone dying.
 
DarthRandall
Posts: 293
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 8:17 am

RE: Man Claiming Bomb Shot By Air Marshall At MIA

Fri Dec 09, 2005 1:05 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 180):
Police are trained to have control over a situation through power or the perception that they have power. Unfortunatly I have a feeling that this approach may have contributed to the situation.

I would argue that that posture would be justified in the case of a bomb threat.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 187):
If you profile terrorist activity, you will know that if a wife is going along with the plan, she isn't going to be screaming after the guy saying "don't shoot, he is off his medication and doesn't have a bomb", she is going to blow up the bomb herself. I am starting to really agree with L-188's analysis of the training involved here because not only did the suspect exhibit signs of Bipolar disorder (Irrationality, non-response to authority, etc.) but he did not exhibit any signs of the terrorist profile.

Whether the air marshall knew the individual to be insane or not, he should not let someone who claims to have a bomb reach for their bag. Insane people can be just as much of a threat as terrorists in some circumstances. Whether or not it's their fault is irrelavant.

Quoting RAMPRAT980 (Reply 189):
You forgot Mermaid man power.

Don't forget Barnicle Boy, you old coot!
Ninjas can kill anyone they want! Ninjas cut off heads all the time and don't even think twice about it.
 
NYC777
Posts: 5103
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 3:00 am

RE: Man Claiming Bomb Shot By Air Marshall At MIA

Fri Dec 09, 2005 1:12 am

Norm: You were acting like a maniac and you threatened her with a bomb.
Greg Focker: No, I said I didn't have a bomb.
Norm: But you said bomb.
Greg Focker: I said, "It's not like I have a bomb".
Norm: You said "Bomb" on an airplane.
Greg Focker: What's wrong with saying 'Bomb' on an airplane?
Norm: You can't say 'Bomb' on an airplane!
Greg Focker: Bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb. You gonna arrest me? Bomb bomb bomb bomb! During the war I was a BOMBadier!
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
Braniff727
Posts: 656
Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2000 2:25 am

RE: Man Claiming Bomb Shot By Air Marshall At MIA

Fri Dec 09, 2005 1:30 am

You all crack me up. You haven't been able to even joke about having a bomb or a weapon in an airport in how long, 20, 30 years? Why is everyone so upset that a man on an airplane shouting that he has a bomb was taken out by an air marshall?

So his wife was shouting "he's bipolar?" Because had he been a real terrorist he would have been acting alone, or if there were accomplices they certainly wouldn't try to use some elaborate story to accomplish their destruction?

Get real. This is a new world where freedom is under attack, not just in the US, but all over the world. Being nice to and not pointing weapons at terrorists is NOT going to make them stop hating us.

Whether he had a bomb or not, he did something that he shouldn't have and he paid the price. If you don't want to get shot on an airplane, then DON'T SAY YOU HAVE A BOMB. If you have a medical condition that is controllable by medicine, then you better take it before you try to get on an airplane.
Climbing
 
N1120A
Posts: 26567
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Man Claiming Bomb Shot By Air Marshall At MIA

Fri Dec 09, 2005 1:56 am

Please continue this thread over here, because I am sure dial up users are having issues. Mods, please lock and direct.
Third Thread On The MIA Air Marshall Incident (by N1120A Dec 8 2005 in Civil Aviation)
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
hawk44
Posts: 736
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 3:54 pm

RE: Man Claiming Bomb Shot By Air Marshall At MIA

Fri Dec 09, 2005 2:20 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 201):
One more time ladies and gents: The FAM did exactly what he was supposed to do, and did it by the numbers according to every bit of training I've ever had. Use of Force Continuum followed. Chance of secondary casualties minimized (incident took place on the jetway, not in the aircraft or in the terminal - at best the jetway and cop would have been blown away), textbook example of the way to do it right.

This is the best post in this thread. It's actually nice to hear someone who knows what they are talking about.

Quoting KFLLSpotter (Reply 202):
I took time yesterday to research the FAM job more, considering it's a career I've thought about.

Always good to look up the facts, pm me and I might be able to give you some info.

Hawk44
Never under estimate the power of US
 
Gr8Circle
Posts: 2633
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2005 11:44 am

RE: Man Claiming Bomb Shot By Air Marshall At MIA

Fri Dec 09, 2005 2:33 am

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 17):
Why? Do you think that law enforcment operates under the impression that any terrorist will be dark skinned, dark haired, and be wearing some sort of cloth headgear? They are well aware that a terrorist could have any appearence or could be of either gender. Look at the ones who took over the school in Georgia. They are as white as anyone and hate the US (along with Russia and several other countries) as much as anyone from the Middle East.

I think it is very safe to say that had he not taken the actions he did, he would not have been shot, regardless of his ethnicity.

You are absolutely right pal....however, all such acts these days seem to be narrowed down to certain ethnic backgrounds...that's why I asked this question...I fully agree with what you say....
 
Gr8Circle
Posts: 2633
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2005 11:44 am

RE: Man Claiming Bomb Shot By Air Marshall At MIA

Fri Dec 09, 2005 2:37 am

Quoting Ctbarnes (Reply 25):
What's the reasoning, just out of curiosity?

A wounded fanatic, such as the nice gentlemen who flew into certain buildings on 09/11, can detonate weapons even with a bullet lodged somewhere in their body.....you just have to look at all the suicide bombers in the M.E......shoot to kill is the only way to ensure that other (innocent) people are protected....
 
Gr8Circle
Posts: 2633
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2005 11:44 am

RE: Man Claiming Bomb Shot By Air Marshall At MIA

Fri Dec 09, 2005 2:40 am

Quoting Flydl2atl (Reply 139):
I honestly fear the air marshals more than I do any terrorists.

Good...and we'll all be much much safer in the air and on the ground, if terrorists themselves felt the same way.... Smile that's the whole idea, you see....
 
prosa
Posts: 5389
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2001 3:24 am

RE: Man Claiming Bomb Shot By Air Marshall At MIA

Fri Dec 09, 2005 2:41 am

It's all irrelevant ... under the current political climate in the United States, it is nearly impossible to prosecute a law enforcement officer for the wrongful killing or injury of an innocent person, as they're completely protected by the post-9/11 "hero" aura. While there'll certainly be an official investigation of this incident, it will be a whitewash with no serious consideration of any blame on the FAM's part. He's essentially been declared innocent before the investigation even began.
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
TACAA320
Posts: 7153
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2004 3:03 am

RE: Man Claiming Bomb Shot By Air Marshall At MIA

Fri Dec 09, 2005 3:52 am

He was a Costarican citizen, I am too. But definitely the Law Enforcement Officers acted according with their protocol.

I'm just hearing his father [in the TV] who claims that his son was a "healthy" man.

Unfortunately was confirmed that he was mentally ill. Even more, he spent sometime at a mental institution here in Costa Rica according with other relatives.
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
User avatar
AirPacific747
Posts: 9718
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 9:52 am

RE: Man Claiming Bomb Shot By Air Marshall At MIA

Fri Dec 09, 2005 3:58 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 187):
A Federal Air Marshall should be a lot better trained than your typical security guard.

You are not answering my question
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: Man Claiming Bomb Shot By Air Marshall At MIA

Fri Dec 09, 2005 4:16 am

ATTENTION:

THIS THREAD IS DEAD . . . THERE IS A CONTINUATION . . . PART 3 . . . PLEASE POST THERE.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND

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