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PurdueAv2003
Posts: 243
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2005 11:43 am

RE: Small Plane Crash In Water Off Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2005 11:40 am

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 92):
No, but for an aircraft to fly commercial pax I think they should not be made in the mid 40s! That is a bit outdated.

A properly inspected and maintained airframe can be used indefinitely. Age has nothing to do with this incident. There may be fatigue issues (not to be confused with age), but, again, proper inspection and maintenance will take care of that.

There is only one reason why airlines are flying around brand new B777's rather than DC-3's: $$$$$. Airlines have purchased new planes because they are more efficient and because passengers demand more comfort. If you could lure passengers to fly New York to London on an old flying boat and still make a profit, you can bet that the airlines would still be doing it. NW is flying old DC-9's because they are still making some money off of those old birds (granted that money may be flushed away somewhere else). However, most passengers today want a quiet flight with a PTV and to get to there destination ASAP. And if the flight costs less to operate per passenger, the airline is going to provide.

I would not hesitate to fly on a Chalk's Mallard or any other old plane.
Ptu = Ftu X Anet (not to be confused with a.net)
 
EMBQA
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RE: Small Plane Crash In Water Off Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2005 11:47 am

Quoting Access-Air (Reply 95):
...Why are you challenging my statement?

I would say because no official source has released the tail number of the plane involved... and thus the 'source' has no way of really knowing, so their statement is just a guess.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
APFPilot1985
Posts: 1840
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RE: Small Plane Crash In Water Off Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2005 11:50 am

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 101):
I would say because no official source has released the tail number of the plane involved... and thus the 'source' has no way of really knowing, so their statement is just a guess.

Thank You... I've been trying everything so far to find out the tail number including Red 1 and other sources and nothing....
Stand Up and Be Counted Visit Site Related to Voice your opinion
 
chrisjake
Posts: 1030
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RE: Small Plane Crash In Water Off Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:18 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 92):
most aviation people I know won't either

i have to believe that this statement is incorrect. i know quite a few "aviation people" who would enjoy nothing less than a ride on a Mallard, myself included.

chris
 
AJRfromSYR
Posts: 445
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RE: Small Plane Crash In Water Off Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:21 pm

Video is on CNN website
-AJR-
 
calpilot
Posts: 881
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RE: Small Plane Crash In Water Off Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:26 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 92):
Are you kidding? Mary Schiavo has done a lot for aviation safety and believe me knows what she is talking about. She said it perfect when she also said that if you notice the aircraft is older than you then pass. Don't discount what this women says, she is very credible and has done more than most to insure safety of aircraft. So don't try to make her some of kind of glory hunter.

She's the biggest idiot on T.V. And I agree she just wants hear herself scare people!

Watch the vidio, the aircraft is not on fire, the wing is. The question is which came first, the wing seperation, or the fire.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 10219
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RE: Small Plane Crash In Water Off Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:31 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 92):
Mary Schiavo has done a lot for aviation safety

Mary Schiavo has done a lot for herself, turning her post as "inspector general" (bean counter) at the Transportation Department into a private practice where she gets paid to spew quotable stupidities right after airplane accidents and in cases afterwards. Notice the demeanor of the professional accident investigators and the former professional accident investigators after an incident like this. How many sound bites do you hear from them? Very few. How many do you hear from her? There ya go.

Here's an example of a Mary Schiavo "contribution to air safety". Note the opportunity for self-promotion involved:

http://www.cnn.com/US/9903/15/suspicious.bag.01/index.html
 
NIKV69
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RE: Small Plane Crash In Water Off Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:35 pm

Quoting APFPilot1985 (Reply 94):
You are ignorant, its impossible to argue with you because you present opinion as fact and im going to and im going encourage other members to just write you off.

You sir are the one that is ignorant. My opinion does not make anything a fact. I will tell you that this woman knows a hell of a lot more than you are giving her credit for. She was commenting on the P&W engines not because she is a glory hunter but because she has first hand knowledge of them and their operation and maintenance. She is an EXPERT whether you want to give her credit or not.

Quoting APFPilot1985 (Reply 94):
Most people who like planes would kill to get one one.... youre crazy

They are a great old plane I agree, but for something to ferry people on a daily basis I would prefer something a little younger.

Quoting PurdueAv2003 (Reply 100):
There is only one reason why airlines are flying around brand new B777's rather than DC-3's: $$$$$.

Actually it is not $$$$$. It is technology! Are you serious? It is the year 2006! Old planes are great, they are nostalgic etc but they are DINOSAURS! There comes a time when you have to put them on the shelf, especially for daily commercial use. Why are airlines using the 738 and 739 and not the 732.
90 Day Fiancé has taught me that Russian woman are excellent.
 
wjcandee
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RE: Small Plane Crash In Water Off Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:35 pm

NTSB says there's a CVR on this aircraft. So we'll know what happened in terms of accident sequence. They're going to try to pull it up tonight.
 
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N62NA
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RE: Small Plane Crash In Water Off Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:38 pm

NTSB news conference right now being carried on our local Miami channel 33. Plane was built in 1947. (I am NOT joining the "the plane was too old to be flying" bandwagon).
 
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N62NA
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RE: Small Plane Crash In Water Off Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:41 pm

Quoting N62NA (Reply 109):
They are a great old plane I agree, but for something to ferry people on a daily basis I would prefer something a little younger.

That's your preference and I respect that. But for this particular mission, this may be the best aircraft for the job.
 
AJRfromSYR
Posts: 445
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RE: Small Plane Crash In Water Off Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:43 pm

Even CNN calls it safe...
-AJR-
 
PurdueAv2003
Posts: 243
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2005 11:43 am

RE: Small Plane Crash In Water Off Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:44 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 107):
Actually it is not $$$$$. It is technology! Are you serious? It is the year 2006! Old planes are great, they are nostalgic etc but they are DINOSAURS! There comes a time when you have to put them on the shelf, especially for daily commercial use. Why are airlines using the 738 and 739 and not the 732.

Because the 738 and 739 are more efficient, burn less fuel, and have lower operating costs, saving $$$$$.
Ptu = Ftu X Anet (not to be confused with a.net)
 
wjcandee
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RE: Small Plane Crash In Water Off Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:47 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 107):
She is an EXPERT

She is a LAWYER and a public policy dweeb. She is not an accident investigator.

Look, Dude, she's obviously a very intelligent person who has managed to make a name for herself. She can spew factoids, like a lot of lawyers can. That doesn't make her an engineer. She's an advocate of a very particular and, some would argue, simplistic, feel-good-sound-good approach to air safety. That's why the professionals like pilots and scientists hate her. She also has a demeanor, at least on camera, that is insufferable to a lot of people who work in the professional side of this business. I'm sure that she would say that her insufferableness is just a part of being a good advocate, or a good politician. Sometimes, that is true, but sometimes it hurts your credibility, and her credibility among folks like CALPilot above is close to zero.

Look, I admire Al Sharpton for his ability to drive the center of a debate more to his side by adopting positions that are the most extreme possible, and for his ability, as a "larger" man, to sprint like a demon and mow down anyone who stands between himself and a TV camera. In a way, I'm a fan of the guy, even though I don't agree with a lot of his positions. I don't feel the same way about Schiavo. But in a way, she is attempting the same thing: drive the "center" of the debate more to her side by adopting extreme and simplistic positions. And that's what a politician does. But I don't consider her to be a dispassionate, analytical expert.

Here's your beloved's bio from Martindale-Hubbell, a big lawyer bio site:

http://www.martindale.com/xp/Martind...F5085BDEE255E93&type=2&pos=5&cnt=5

You can love her all you want, but just don't forget that she's an advocate, and views everything through her own special filter.
 
A330323X
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RE: Small Plane Crash In Water Off Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:49 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 92):
Are you kidding? Mary Schiavo has done a lot for aviation safety and believe me knows what she is talking about. She said it perfect when she also said that if you notice the aircraft is older than you then pass.

My God, I was just the other day on a US 757 that was older that I am! I could've been killed! How lucky I am to have escaped with all my limbs intact!  Yeah sure
I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
 
wjcandee
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RE: Small Plane Crash In Water Off Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:59 pm

Wow, that video is pretty definitive. The wing and/or the engine is ablaze and separated from the aircraft. The aircraft hits the water a distance from, and a few seconds before, the item that is ablaze. There is no fire whatsoever visible on the main portion of the fuselage of the accident aircraft. Unfortunately, the video isn't long enough to make clear whether the aircraft is in a roll, as it hits pointy section first with a slight roll to the right. The question will be whether there was a fire leading to structural failure and separation, structural failure leading to fuel leak leading to fire and subsequent structural failure, or separation followed by fire. The latter is unlikely, because if you look at the smoke trail, it proceeds horizonally for a period of time before beginning its descent. Incredible.
 
EMBQA
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RE: Small Plane Crash In Water Off Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2005 1:03 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 107):
She is an EXPERT whether you want to give her credit or not.

So, after reading her Bio above she's an Expert how...?? Because she had her PPL at one time...?? I wonder if it's even current....???
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
TransIsland
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RE: Small Plane Crash In Water Off Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2005 1:13 pm

Quoting Scallar (Reply 55):
This picture surprises me though... Why is the gear extended while in the water?

Because it either just came from, or was about to go up on a ramp like this...


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Stephen Aranha



This is PID, where Chalk's arrives in Nassau, but since the plane took off in Miami today, I guess it was bound for Bimini. Sad incident, indeed.  Sad
I'm an aviation expert. I have Sky Juice for breakfast.
 
USAFHummer
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RE: Small Plane Crash In Water Off Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2005 1:19 pm

Quoting Pmanchuk (Reply 87):

In my opinion, releasing the video on the news was a bad choice. I've seen it a few times this evening and I get chills every time.

I agree...being down here in FLL, Ive seen it a few times myself on the various news reports, and its one of the most horrifying crash videos Ive ever seen...

Greg
Chief A.net college football stadium self-pic guru
 
MxCtrlr
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RE: Small Plane Crash In Water Off Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2005 1:29 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 62):
Mary Schiavo said it best a few minutes ago. She likes to see antique planes in the museum. These planes are very old.

"Scary Mary" spouts off yet again without engaging her brain. Age has NOTHING to do with airworthiness. If "Scary Mary" had her choice, there would be no DC-8's, DC-9's (NW would be in trouble), 707's, 727's, 737-Classics, or 747-classics flying, not to mention the number of DC-3's, DC-4's, DC-6's and DC-7's flying cargo all over the world (and even in the US). Just because a plane is old, doesn't mean its unairworthy. Under her way of thinking, SHE should be put in a museum! She should do us all a favor and either produce her non-existant A & P License (since she seems to be such an expert on aircraft maintenance) or STFU (preferrably the latter choice).

Sad to see a venerable airline like Chalks suffered this accident and sad for families of those lost (pax and crew) so close to Christmas.

MxCtrlr  bouncy 
DAMN! This SUCKS! I just had to go to the next higher age bracket in my profile! :-(
 
JBirdAV8r
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RE: Small Plane Crash In Water Off Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2005 2:14 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 107):
Actually it is not $$$$$. It is technology! Are you serious? It is the year 2006! Old planes are great, they are nostalgic etc but they are DINOSAURS! There comes a time when you have to put them on the shelf, especially for daily commercial use. Why are airlines using the 738 and 739 and not the 732.

Actually, you're wrong too.

Can you think of an aircraft better suited for that operation than a Mallard? No? That's because there isn't one. Why do you think the exceptionally rare Martin Mars still flies as a water-bomber? Why do you still see 737-200's going into far-from-ideal gravel strips in extreme northern Canada? Heck, why do you still see Piper Cubs training new student pilots? Yes, the Grumman floatplanes are somewhat of a nostalgic aircraft in South Florida/Bahamas (just look at the Air Margaritaville logo for an example), but please...don't think that's the only reason they're in operation. The age of an aircraft is, for the most part, irrelevant--if it's properly maintained. It'll be interesting to see what the metallurgists have to say when they get hold of the wing. I'll bet on structural failure of a spar.

That said, I know several people who've either flown for or professionally dealt with Chalk's, and I've not heard anything else other than that it's a world-class organization and a tight-knit community. This is not your typical "fly-by-night" small operation, this is a well-established and well-reputed air carrier.

Pray for the families of the crew and the other victims. There wasn't a thing they could do.
I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
 
NIKV69
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RE: Small Plane Crash In Water Off Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2005 2:21 pm

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 108):
NTSB says there's a CVR on this aircraft. So we'll know what happened in terms of accident sequence.

We need a FDR. Eyewitnesses on the ground will tell us more that the CVR. All the CVR will tell us is that we had two pilots trying to control the plane before it broke up.

Quoting PurdueAv2003 (Reply 112):
Because the 738 and 739 are more efficient, burn less fuel, and have lower operating costs, saving $$$$$

No Kidding  footinmouth 

The 738 is a more modern, sophisticated aircraft. It is not strictly $$$$.

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 113):
She is a LAWYER and a public policy dweeb. She is not an accident investigator.

Just because you don't investigate air disasters doesn't mean you don't know anything. The fact that she is not out in the field kicking tin means nothing. She acquired knowledge of aircraft, maintenance and the like for her job. She knows more than you think. She is more than qualified to voice her opinion. Also comparing her to Al Sharpton is totally lame and stupid. Al Sharpton is basically a moron who will do anything to get himself on the news. Mary Schiavo is an expert that has worked in the field and doesn't seek the limelight, media seeks her out because her opinion means something.

Quoting MxCtrlr (Reply 120):
Scary Mary" spouts off yet again without engaging her brain. Age has NOTHING to do with airworthiness

Never said it did, but with an aircraft this old that sits in salt water one should be cautious, you seem to think these things can fly forever. This is not true. Especially when it's being used as much as this one was.
90 Day Fiancé has taught me that Russian woman are excellent.
 
thegreatchecko
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RE: Small Plane Crash In Water Off Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2005 2:44 pm

Quoting USAFHummer (Reply 119):
I agree...being down here in FLL, Ive seen it a few times myself on the various news reports, and its one of the most horrifying crash videos Ive ever seen...

Okay so its not just me.... sigh 

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 122):
but with an aircraft this old that sits in salt water one should be cautious, you seem to think these things can fly forever. This is not true. Especially when it's being used as much as this one was.

Its interesting to note that this Chalks' first fatal accident since 1919. I would've expect corrosion issues to have become evident much earlier. I don't think any airframe would be able to withstand a fire of that magnitude, no matter the age or corrosion level.

Btw, the aircraft do not sit in salt water, they just land and take off in it. The aren't boats in the traditional sense. Thats why they are called amphibious not flying boats.

Anyone here concerned about this type of a failure in a PT-6 engine. They are known for their reliablility; they usually don't go blowing up on you.

Honestly, I'm at a complete loss here. This was a catastrophic failure at the unimaginable level. Just absolutely scary in my mind....

GreatChecko
"A pilot's plane she is. She will love you if you deserve it, and try to kill you if you don't...She is the Mighty Q400"
 
StevenUhl777
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RE: Small Plane Crash In Water Off Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2005 3:05 pm

RIP to everyone who didn't make it...  Sad

Quoting Adriaticus (Reply 25):
Chalk's Ocean Airways was founded in 1919. Its floating planes take off on the water. Chalk's aircraft have been featured in TV shows such as "Miami Vice."

Yes...Chalks appeared in many episodes of MV, and I think was in the flashy intro. as well.
And the winner for best actress is....REESE WITHERSPOON for 'Walk the Line'!!!!!!!!
 
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flybynight
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RE: Small Plane Crash In Water Off Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2005 3:10 pm

There are some interesting points going back and forth. Certainly 60 year old planes can be safe, and I too would love to fly on one.
But there is a point to take into consideration when a 60 year old is being used as a daily transport. Living in Seattle I see seaplanes coming and going that are used as regular day-to-day commercial flights, so I would think there are viable alternatives.
I do for the most part agree that age doesn't have an impact on safety, but that isn't 100% accurate. Age, of course stresses an airframe more and causes metal fatigue. The solution is proper maintenance. But an airplane is a big machine to inspect and things can be overlooked. Salt in the air accelerates the process. Makes me think of that Aloha Air 732 (or was it a 731?) back in the 80's that had part of the fuselage come apart in mid-air.
Once again, I'm not saying an old plane is unsafe, but when it comes right down to it, I'd rather fly on a new plane.  Smile
Heia Norge!
 
wjcandee
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RE: Small Plane Crash In Water Off Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2005 3:19 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 122):
We need a FDR. Eyewitnesses on the ground will tell us more that the CVR.

Really. Then why was it one of the first things that the NTSB says that it wants? Personally, I think that it MAY be helpful. Remember that in a small aircraft like the Mallard, it may pick up information in the form of exclamations from the passengers as well as what is being said in the cockpit. Based on what it picks up, we can hear whether passengers are reporting fire in the engine, fire in the wing, or something else. It will tell us whether the crew had notice and could make an effort to descend. It will tell us how long the crew had to react, and whether they reacted immediately, or rather whether they investigated in the air (a variation of an issue that arose in the Alaska MD80 accident). We will know whether they blew the fire bottles (assuming that a modern engine like that on the Mallard T has them). We will know whether the wing just folded up and what we see in the smoke trail is the result of a wing failure, or the thing that contributed to it.

Or we won't, because maybe it wasn't discussed or maybe it isn't audible. But these are conceivable things that the CVR could reveal. Remember: had the ValuJet CVR been recovered days earlier than it was, investigators would have known immediately that the co-pilot's report of "smoke in the cockpit, smoke in the cabin" to ATC was not wholly accurate, that the Captain had told him to report "FIRE" and that he had not done so, and that a fast-moving fire had arisen. This would have reduced the days of speculation by the media and "experts" about what might have gone wrong to create the smoke of which the F/O had spoken, leading to all sorts of stupid aging-aircraft speculation which turned out to be wholly unfounded.

So...maybe the CVR will be useful, sir?
 
wjcandee
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RE: Small Plane Crash In Water Off Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2005 3:21 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 121):
media seeks her out because her opinion means something.

Respectfully, Sir, media seek out Scary Mary because they know, as they do with Al Sharpton, that they'll get a quotable quote, like the one she came out with today.
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Small Plane Crash In Water Off Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2005 3:31 pm

I think they first thing they'll look at is whether one of the turboprop engine suffered a very catastrophic failure of some sort, one that could literally blow the wings apart. if you saw that long smoke trail it appears the engine may have been on fire for some time and when the engine suffered its failure, it probably exploded like a bomb and blew off one of the wings.
 
stirling
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RE: Small Plane Crash In Water Off Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2005 3:33 pm

I think something was kicked up out of the water, severed a fuel line, ignited, weakened the wing spar, and, well, you know the rest.

The part I struggle with is how fast it happened, and why?
Delete this User
 
thomasphoto60
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RE: Small Plane Crash In Water Off Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2005 3:52 pm

Well despite NIK69 and Schivio's fear of anything with wings that is older than 40 years of age and their desire to see Chalk's operations shut down, I personally would have no hesitation stepping aboard one of the beauties this coming Jan. I have made 8 Chalk's flights in over the last 10 years and I am praying that this unfortunate tragedy will not spell the end of this venerable family run Miami institution.

Keep on flyin Chalks

Thomas
"Show me the Braniffs"
 
Molykote
Posts: 1240
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RE: Small Plane Crash In Water Off Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2005 3:53 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 92):
Are you kidding? Mary Schiavo has done a lot for aviation safety and believe me knows what she is talking about. She said it perfect when she also said that if you notice the aircraft is older than you then pass.

Technical basis please? Also, why should we "believe you"?

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 121):
Quoting MxCtrlr (Reply 120):
Scary Mary" spouts off yet again without engaging her brain. Age has NOTHING to do with airworthiness

Never said it did, but with an aircraft this old that sits in salt water one should be cautious, you seem to think these things can fly forever.

Get back to us once you figure out your position.
Speedtape - The aspirin of aviation!
 
ptcflyer
Posts: 124
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2001 12:03 pm

RE: Small Plane Crash In Water Off Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2005 4:05 pm

I just reviewed detailed photgraphs I took when I flew on N2969 on November 19, 2005. I have several very detailed photos of the underside of the right wing. In the pictures, I see a line of very deep cracks or marks running across the underside of the wing. These cracks do not appear under similar photos that I took of N142PA on November 26.

Does anyone know really,... what is the tail number of the plane? If it is this aircraft, my photos may be helpful to investigators. Photos are 8 megapixel -- taken with Digital Rebel.

I remember taking the photos with the camera as low as possible in the window... leaning up toward the underside of the wing. The photos give a very good view of the wing area.

Please post the tail number.
 
wjcandee
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RE: Small Plane Crash In Water Off Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2005 4:11 pm

Quoting Ptcflyer (Reply 131):
Please post the tail number.

Why not just post the photos.

Moreover, the NTSB has a Miami hot line active for which they have requested folks with video or still pictues of the accident to call. If you have a photo of what might be the accident aircraft, why not just call that number? (and, of course, let your friends here know what happened!)
 
wjcandee
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RE: Small Plane Crash In Water Off Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2005 4:19 pm

Well, Scary Mary made it into the latest Miami Herald article, saying OF COURSE, that the plane was too old. I had emailed the author to the effect that citing the SDRs actually didn't show a history of trouble with the aircraft, so I really can't email him again. Maybe someone can read the article and let the author know what people in the industry think of Mary.
 
hz747300
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RE: Small Plane Crash In Water Off Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2005 4:21 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 92):
Mary Schiavo is far from clueless. She has more knowledge about the things she comments on. If you think otherwise you are clueless.

We have a right to dislike Mary Schiavo with or without cause.

They are showing the accident is super slow motion now on the Australia's Channel 9. I guess we have to wait to see what caused the wing separation and fire. I do not even want to imagine what those passengers must have been thinking in those final moments.
Keep on truckin'...
 
wjcandee
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RE: Small Plane Crash In Water Off Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2005 4:38 pm

For the gentleman with the photos:

The NTSB's phone number in Miami, for which they are requesting witnesses and any photos or video that may help their investigation, they are requesting that you leave a message, with how they may contact you and what information that you have that may be helpful to their investigation:

305-597-4613 ext. 13 and leave a message.
 
ptcflyer
Posts: 124
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RE: Small Plane Crash In Water Off Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2005 4:47 pm

Thanks -- just left a message with my contact information. The more I look at the photo of N2969, the more I think... wow... the line of cracks looks very strange.

They are intermittent but end up running across about 40% of the wing width. The cracks are about 2 feet on the outside of the right engine. The plane is old, and without magnifying the photos... the cracks did not stand out to me as dangerous when I was a passenger.

Could a severe structure failure of the wing leak fuel into the exaust creating the fire?

I can't believe that the registration number has not been published or mentioned definitively.
 
Newark777
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RE: Small Plane Crash In Water Off Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2005 4:51 pm

I certainly hope that ifvyou saw cracks, so did the flight crews, and someone would have pointed it out if it was serious. Don't want to speculate, though.

Harry
Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
 
sudden
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RE: Small Plane Crash In Water Off Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2005 5:30 pm

Quoting Boeing Nut (Reply 14):
When was the last, if any, accident for Chalk's? It's the first that I can ever remember.

This was there first incident in there 86 years existence!

3 infants onboard. Very sad for everyone onboard as well as for relatives.

Aim for the sky!
Sudden
When in doubt, flat out!
 
ptcflyer
Posts: 124
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2001 12:03 pm

RE: Small Plane Crash In Water Off Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2005 5:39 pm

I read the Miami Herald review of previous incidents for the aircraft. I see "matches" of these incidents in the NTSB database.... for N2969. Not for sure, but I think it is N2969.
 
airforum
Posts: 170
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2000 10:48 pm

RE: Small Plane Crash In Water Off Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2005 6:00 pm

Quoting Flybynight (Reply 124):
There are some interesting points going back and forth. Certainly 60 year old planes can be safe, and I too would love to fly on one.
But there is a point to take into consideration when a 60 year old is being used as a daily transport. Living in Seattle I see seaplanes coming and going that are used as regular day-to-day commercial flights, so I would think there are viable alternatives.
I do for the most part agree that age doesn't have an impact on safety, but that isn't 100% accurate. Age, of course stresses an airframe more and causes metal fatigue. The solution is proper maintenance. But an airplane is a big machine to inspect and things can be overlooked. Salt in the air accelerates the process. Makes me think of that Aloha Air 732 (or was it a 731?) back in the 80's that had part of the fuselage come apart in mid-air.
Once again, I'm not saying an old plane is unsafe, but when it comes right down to it, I'd rather fly on a new plane.

Amen.

Without pointing at this particular sad event: a very well maintained classic aircraft can't compete to a very well maintained modern one when it comes to safety. Old age comes with shortcomings, as we say here. It gets harder and harder to keep something old running smooth.

But again: I am not saying that old planes are unsafe!
What goes up, must come down. Let's hope the sky never went up.
 
airforum
Posts: 170
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2000 10:48 pm

RE: Small Plane Crash In Water Off Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2005 6:05 pm

Quoting Access-Air (Reply 85):
Well, I can add one more aircraft (N130FB) to the list of aircraft that have crashed and I have flown on.....



Quoting Ptcflyer (Reply 139):
read the Miami Herald review of previous incidents for the aircraft. I see "matches" of these incidents in the NTSB database.... for N2969. Not for sure, but I think it is N2969.



Quoting Access-Air (Reply 95):
Why are you challenging my statement?

 stirthepot 
What goes up, must come down. Let's hope the sky never went up.
 
baw716
Posts: 1463
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2003 7:02 pm

RE: Small Plane Crash In Water Off Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2005 6:52 pm

It is indeed sad that my first post for many months has to be on this subject.

There are a number of us who may be jumping the gun a little and playing armchair crash investigators. We know this: The airplane crashed into the water. From the picture, it would appear (repeat appear) that it nosed in without its right wing. How that happened (uncontained engine failure, other causes) will have to wait for the NTSB to complete its investigation. News sources have reported searchers are looking for black boxes, but I am not entirely certain if the airline was required to carry them.

For now, let's keep our eye on the ball here. Nineteen people died on that flight today. Their families deserve our prayers and condolences. Let's leave the conjecture for later.

baw716
David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
 
noelg
Posts: 2313
Joined: Fri Apr 26, 2002 11:39 pm

RE: Small Plane Crash In Water Off Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2005 9:03 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 92):
You are dealing with a sea plane that is almost 60 years old! crazy and in salt water all the time. You get on that plane. I sure as hell won't and most aviation people I know won't either.

OMG!!!!! I'm flying on a 65 year old aircraft next month!!!!!! WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!!!!!!!!!

Please just give it a rest. As everyone else has said the age of the aircraft is irrelevant.

I suggest you go away, find out the facts, and come back on here when you can offer something more than saying "The plane was old, it must be a heap of sh!t, nobody will want to fly on it".
 
Timmytour
Posts: 79
Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2004 8:52 pm

RE: Small Plane Crash In Water Off Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2005 9:38 pm

Quoting Airforum (Reply 141):
Quoting Access-Air (Reply 85):
Well, I can add one more aircraft (N130FB) to the list of aircraft that have crashed and I have flown on.....



Quoting Ptcflyer (Reply 139):
read the Miami Herald review of previous incidents for the aircraft. I see "matches" of these incidents in the NTSB database.... for N2969. Not for sure, but I think it is N2969.



Quoting Access-Air (Reply 95):
Why are you challenging my statement?

Don't want to stir anything but I've heard from separate sources that it's N2969 as well....sorry!
 
User avatar
jetpixx
Posts: 890
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2004 3:22 pm

RE: Small Plane Crash In Water Off Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2005 9:44 pm

Quoting Boeing Nut (Reply 14):
When was the last, if any, accident for Chalk's? It's the first that I can ever remember.



Quoting Sudden (Reply 138):
This was there first incident in there 86 years existence!



Quoting TheGreatChecko (Reply 122):
Its interesting to note that this Chalks' first fatal accident since 1919.



Quoting Krisrockwell (Reply 43):
As far as I can recall, there was only one other fatality on Chalk's in it's history and that was a pilot killed due to excess water in the hull of the aircraft during a reposition near Key West (I could be wrong on this, but I believe it is correct).

While the fatalities were a pair of pilots, it is untrue Chalk's never had a fatal incident in their 86-year history. Two pilots were killed in a crash in Key West harbor on March 18, 1994. Krisrockwell was correct about the reposition, but it was two pilots, not one.

While no passengers were killed, this definitely counts as a fatal incident just for further information. Thanks - DED
ABE, BIL, BOS, BUF, BWI, CAE, CAK, CHS, CLE, CLT, CVG, DAY, DFW, DTW, EWR, FLL, GSO, IAD, IAH, IND, ISP, JAX, JFK, LAS, LAX, LGA, MDW, MEM, MHT, MIA, MKE, MLB, MSO, MSP, OMA, ORD, PBI, PHL, PIT, PVD, RDU, SEA, SFO, SLC, SJU, STL, SYR, TLH, TMB, TUL, YVR
 
don81603
Posts: 1105
Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2005 12:07 am

RE: Small Plane Crash In Water Off Miami

Tue Dec 20, 2005 10:40 pm

Quoting Scallar (Reply 55):
This picture surprises me though... Why is the gear extended while in the water?

It could be extended for going up the ramp, but I recall the US Navy pilot Lt Gwinn used first used the technique back in the closing days of the war to help reduce speed while picking up survivors of the cruiser Indianapolis.
Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.
 
maury
Posts: 526
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 6:27 am

RE: Small Plane Crash In Water Off Miami

Wed Dec 21, 2005 1:11 am

Professionals will do their jobs today, tomorrow, and for a year; an accident report will be issued after much investigation and deliberation. Not nearly as much fun as idle speculation, but that's the way we play it.

Hmm: Mary Schiavo is more than 40 years old and *she* flies all the time.
 
Timmytour
Posts: 79
Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2004 8:52 pm

RE: Small Plane Crash In Water Off Miami

Wed Dec 21, 2005 1:18 am

Does anyone know who serviced the aircraft?
 
cptkrell
Posts: 3186
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2001 10:50 pm

RE: Small Plane Crash In Water Off Miami

Wed Dec 21, 2005 1:35 am

For those with TV access, both CNN and FOX have announced "live" coverage of the raising of the Mallard which, evidently, will commence shortly.

Several years back during the Airliner's Int'l Convention @ MIA, I was happy to fly a demo flight w/ Chalk's (sorry, can't locate the N-number) for several touch-and go's out near some island...it was a thrill, and I wouldn't hesitate another flight, as I never hesitate for flights on maintained and professionally crewed WWII warbirds. Regards....jack (P.S. As previously mentioned, the action video appears to show that the fireball was contained in the starboard wing/engine sections which seperated and fell behind and in a more vertical descent than the fuselage. Theories are abundant and free, but if I were a wagering person, I would look to blade delamination or seperation starting a catastrophic failure).
all best; jack

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