LCC's And Israel

tzadik · Thu Dec 22, 2005 5:05 am

Is there potential for any of the european low cost carriers such as Ryanair or EasyJet ever servicing the holyland?

I know LLBG and extra security costs might not fit the mold of a typical LLC but the market is there. When living in Israel and traveling to the rest of europe my options where either high fares on mainline carriers (ELY, BAW, AZA) or cheap fares on junkers like windjet with thirteen hundred people crammed into an A320.

Perhaps a stansted to Tel Aviv on easy or a bergamo to Tel Aviv on ryan?

Obviously its not that cut and dry or it would have already happened... so what are the reasons?

[Edited 2005-12-21 21:07:01]

zippyjet · Thu Dec 22, 2005 5:19 am

Doesn't Israel have a low cost local short hop spin-off under El Al flying 737's?

tzadik · Thu Dec 22, 2005 5:27 am

well there is sun'dor, arkia, and israir but they mainly operate on a charter schedule... arkia and israir have limited scheduled service but they dont have nearly the route network of a ryan or an easy.

all three operate 757's... i believe israir had 737-700's for a short while.

LAXintl · Thu Dec 22, 2005 11:31 am

Its unlikely Ryanair, Easyjet would serve Israel primarily as the county is not in the EU.

If you look at the carriers route maps their networks operate exclusively within the EU to avoid hassles like customs/immigration.

In addition I remember reading an article regarding Easyjet were they basically felt Greece was about as far as they could see operating as the company believed 4 or so hours was the limit passengers would accept and also long stage lengths would be as high yielding. The carrier could make more money operating multiple short hops with an aircraft in the same time frame then a single longer trip down to the Mediterranean and back.

manni · Thu Dec 22, 2005 4:03 pm

Quoting Tzadik (Thread starter):

I know LLBG and extra security costs might not fit the mold

Add to that aircraft cleaning. If you've ever flown from/to TLV and looked behind you when deboarding the aircraft, you sure know what I'm talking about.

Trvlr · Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:08 pm

Quoting YOWza (Reply 7):
Secondly: is there a market for LCCs between Israel and anywhere other than Europe?

Not in the conventional sense, but that is only because LCC's are, for now, a largely regional phenomenon. Since there is no air traffic between Israel and most Middle Eastern countries, where else could they go but Europe?

That having been said, there is significant tourist traffic between Israel and India and Thailand. I'm sure a budding long-haul LCC in the model of, say, Jetstar International, could find some money in such a market.

Aaron G.

tzadik · Fri Dec 23, 2005 2:07 am

Quoting Manni (Reply 6):
Add to that aircraft cleaning. If you've ever flown from/to TLV and looked behind you when deboarding the aircraft, you sure know what I'm talking about.

Not really... flown into LLBG on Continental, El Al, and Alitalia... and all the birds looked fine... what exactly do you mean?

Quoting Trvlr (Reply 8):
where else could they go but Europe?

there's a lot of popular vacation destinations for Israelis like sharm el shek and antalya, but those are hit hard by arkia and the rest.

really the reason why i started this post was i was taken a back by the fact that european fares on el al are so intense... Moskva was like $900, i actually ended up paying $550 for Rome. just figured el al could use some competition now that they're privately owned.

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 4):
the county is not in the EU.

i heard rumors that Israel was being considered for the EU in 2010 or 2011 but the Israeli government is not too keen on it for security reasons (passport control and such).

adriaticflight · Fri Dec 23, 2005 3:14 am

Quoting Tzadik (Reply 9):
i heard rumors that Israel was being considered for the EU in 2010 or 2011

Sorry to disapoint but Israel is not being considered for the EU, and never will be - because it is not Europe. I think the EU is trying to develop good neighbourly relations with all the Mediterranean states but it has stated on several times that the EU stops with Turkey and Ukraine. An attempt for Israel to join the EU would meet with more hostility than Turkey's has.

It would be nice to see lower fares to Israel, its a place i would like to see, one day in the future. Certainly I can't imagine seeing FR doing a 20minute turnaround in Telaviv.

jacobin777 · Fri Dec 23, 2005 3:18 am

would it not also be cost-prohibitive for carriers such as FR and U2 with all the security fees, landing fees, etc.?

tzadik · Fri Dec 23, 2005 3:41 am

Quoting Adriaticflight (Reply 10):
Sorry to disappoint but Israel is not being considered for the EU, and never will be

I had lunch with a family friend in milan a few weeks ago... his firm (which he runs) is playing a large p/r roll in the joining of turkey to the EU. he, who is on the inside mentioned it was possible. since turkey is a primarily Muslim state they were looking at the possibility of a Jewish state to balance it out. whether or not he's mistaken or you are remains to be seen, but i wouldn't call it an impossibility.

like i said above... its a passport control issue... those with EU passports kinda just roll through security in european airports. when i got into fiumicino the guy at passport control was on his cellphone and didn't even look at my passport before stamping it... i literally walked into that country without anyone asking me a single question. you can't even get onto airport property in Israel without being asked at least 3-5 questions.

Quoting Adriaticflight (Reply 10):
Certainly I can't imagine seeing FR doing a 20minute turnaround in Telaviv.

ya that definitely would be cutting it... takes an hour just to get through security if all goes well... a lot of people would miss their bird on a 20 min turn.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 11):
would it not also be cost-prohibitive for carriers such as FR and U2 with all the security fees, landing fees, etc.?

perhaps an Israeli forum member might have some info on how prohibitive these fee's are.

Quoting Trvlr (Reply 8):
That having been said, there is significant tourist traffic between Israel and India and Thailand. I'm sure a budding long-haul LCC in the model of, say, Jetstar International, could find some money in such a market.

perhaps Israir and their 767 might be able to do something similar?

ly7e7 · Fri Dec 23, 2005 4:41 am

Quoting Tzadik (Reply 12):
they were looking at the possibility of a Jewish state to balance it out.

Nonsense. Israel has nothing to do (politically) with EU and hopefully such steps will never be taken.

Quoting Tzadik (Reply 12):
perhaps an Israeli forum member might have some info on how prohibitive these fee's are.

My semi-educated guess is about 15% higher than the average. TLV-XXX-TLV fares on most foreign carriers are about that amount higher than XXX-TLV-XXX.

jacobin777 · Fri Dec 23, 2005 4:46 am

Quoting LY7E7 (Reply 13):
My semi-educated guess is about 15% higher than the average. TLV-XXX-TLV fares on most foreign carriers are about that amount higher than XXX-TLV-XXX.

that might make it cost prohibitive for carriers such as F9 and U2......interesting..thanks for the info.

ushermittwoch · Fri Dec 23, 2005 5:06 am

Quoting Tzadik (Reply 9):
i heard rumors that Israel was being considered for the EU in 2010 or 2011 but the Israeli government is not too keen on it for security reasons (passport control and such).

Well if you knew about the passport control issues here in Europe, you'd know that it more to do with the Schengen treaty, than with EU membership.
You don't need a passport (or equivalent) to travel to Norway (non-EU) from a Schengen country, but you need one to travel to the UK, since they did not sign the treaty.

tzadik · Fri Dec 23, 2005 5:08 am

Quoting LY7E7 (Reply 13):
Nonsense. Israel has nothing to do (politically) with EU and hopefully such steps will never be taken.

not to start an off-top political subject but check out this quote i found in a haaretz article (obviously dated before Netanyahu stepped down)...

"Foreign Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's declaration that Israel is interested in membership in the EU."

obviously this is not a good move for Israel and the article clearly backs that up but putting the words EU and Israel in the same sentence is not exactly the "nonsense" or "never will be" that's been posted in this thread.

Back on topic...
so it looks like its just not viable both in cost and general operation principles for one these carriers to service TLV... bummer!!! more high fares on the way.

[Edited 2005-12-22 21:27:37]

hodja · Fri Dec 23, 2005 6:10 am

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 3):
Its unlikely Ryanair, Easyjet would serve Israel primarily as the county is not in the EU.

Neither is Switzerland, but they do fly there.

SHUPirate1 · Fri Dec 23, 2005 3:34 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 11):
that might make it cost prohibitive for carriers such as F9

Frontier doesn't really have the aircraft that can make it to Tel Aviv from Denver, I hate to say it... Wink

adriaticflight · Sat Dec 24, 2005 1:14 am

Quoting Tzadik (Reply 9):
since turkey is a primarily Muslim state they were looking at the possibility of a Jewish state to balance it out. whether or not he's mistaken or you are remains to be seen, but i wouldn't call it an impossibility

I would be very happy to bet that it is an impossibility. The beginning of negotiations with Turkey has caused a huge amount of contention in Europe. The debate as to whether Turkey is a European country is hotly fought. Israel is a purely Middle-Eastern country, and in this case geography is everything!, and therefore not Europe. There is no need to ‘balance’ out one state with another – that is quite ridiculous- The EU is far more sophisticated than that. I can understand Israel’s desire to have stronger links with Europe and we should. But Israel is inexorably linked with its neighbours...and its future lies there not with us in Europe.
What we should do is in the future look to Israel opening up its skies to all EU carriers like Morocco has recently done, but his can only be done when Israel is a stable country. I hope that day comes and then the whole Euro-Mediterranean area can benefit from stronger aviation and hopefully economic links.
Adriaticflight

ly7e7 · Sat Dec 24, 2005 5:09 am

Quoting Adriaticflight (Reply 16):
but his can only be done when Israel is a stable country

Are you trying to hint that Israel is less stable then Morocco? You should take an economics lesson (and politics wouldn't be bad too). Israel shouldn't be in the EU for many reasons, none of which are economical, and none has anything to do with our neighbors , which apparently live in another century.

jacobin777 · Sat Dec 24, 2005 5:22 am

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 15):
Frontier doesn't really have the aircraft that can make it to Tel Aviv from Denver, I hate to say it...

lol..FR..thanks... Smile

LAXintl · Sat Dec 24, 2005 6:33 am

Quoting Hodja (Reply 14):
Neither is Switzerland, but they do fly there.

Yes, however operating to Switzerland is similar as operating within the EU in regards to customs/immigration and legal procedures thanks to the harmonization of Swiss and EU laws. For instance quick turnarounds are easy to achieve as the Swiss allow crews to remain onboard and not deplane to go clear customs/immigration/security to only return to their aircraft.

LCC's And Israel

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